You are the bully minded follower of a con man who starts a bs christian ministry. You know nothing more than screaming and intimidation. He (the con) engages in illicit sexual activity, massive chemical abuse, rape, and more. His resume reads like a cheap spy thriller. But you are his follower.
He gets ocular cancer and becomes a cyclops.
He deeds his ministry to you and has a big public event.
You accept this role as leader of a ministry as a GIFT - and proceed to destroy as many people as you can.
You are the bully minded follower of a con man. You know nothing more than screaming and intimidation. He (the con) engages in illicit sexual activity, massive chemical abuse, rape, and more. His resume reads like a cheap spy thriller. But you are his follower.
He gets ocular cancer and becomes a cyclops.
He deeds his ministry to you and has a big public event.
You accept this role as leader of a ministry as a GIFT - and proceed to destroy as many people as you can.
This is the definition of a Gift Ministry
The "gift" part I get.
I'm still a little fuzzy on the "ministry" part, though.
Below is a more biblically based definition of Apostle from the Nelson bible dictionary:
APOSTLE
The word apostle has a wider meaning in the letters of the apostle Paul. It includes people who, like himself, were not included in the Twelve, but who saw the risen Christ and were specially commissioned by Him. Paul's claim to be an apostle was questioned by others. He based his apostleship, however on the direct call of the exalted Lord who appeared to him on the Damascus Road and on the Lord's blessing of his ministry in winning converts and establishing churches (1 Cor 15:10).
Apparently, Paul also counted James, the Lord's brother, as an apostle (Gal 1:19). This James was not one of the Twelve; in fact, he was not a believer in Jesus before the Crucifixion (John 7:5). It was the resurrected Lord who 'appeared to James' (1 Cor 15:7) and presumably commissioned him for his ministry. When Paul says Jesus was seen not only by James but also by "all the apostles" (1 Cor 15:7), he seems to be describing a wider group than "the Twelve" to whom Jesus appeared earlier (1 Cor 15:5).
In 1 Cor 12:28 and Eph 4:11, apostles are listed along with prophets and other saints as part of the foundation of the household of God. In this strictly New Testament sense, apostles are confined to the first generation of Christians.
At an early stage in the church's history it was agreed that apostles to the Jews and Gentiles should be divided into separate camps. Paul and Barnabas were to concentrate on the evangelization of Gentiles; Peter, John, and James (the Lord's brother) were to continue evangelizing Jews (Gal 2:7-9).
As pioneers in the work of making converts and planting churches, apostles were exposed to special dangers. When persecution erupted, they were the primary targets for attack (1 Cor 4:9-13). Paul, in particular, welcomed the suffering which he endured as an apostle because it was his way of participating in the suffering of Christ (Rom 8:17; 2 Cor 1:5-7).
The authority committed to the apostles by Christ was unique. It could not be transmitted to others. The apostles could install elders or other leaders and teachers in the churches, and they could authorize them to assume special responsiblities; but apostolic authority could not be transferred. Their authority has not come to us through their successors; it has come through their writings, which are contained in the New Testament.
Would that BE bringing new light to a generation? I think so. Paul was the one teaching that the non Jews were now accepted into the God stuff -- Even if not brand new never before heard stuff -- it seemed to shake up the Jews who wanted to keep it a Jew- birth only - good old boy club.
Would that BE bringing new light to a generation? I think so. Paul was the one teaching that the non Jews were now accepted into the God stuff -- Even if not brand new never before heard stuff -- it seemed to shake up the Jews who wanted to keep it a Jew- birth only - good old boy club.
Not entirely true about the Jewish good old boy club. There was provision in the law (albeit carrying very onerous conditions) for bringing an "unbeliever" into the fold of Israel...although I don't think it did anything for the "unbeliever" but maybe did something for like his 4th generation offspring if they stayed loyal...
why hasn't apostolic authority come through? what paul "saw" was really hallucination and anybody today could claim the same. i have never understood how paul squirmed in there when the lot fell on matthias.
why hasn't apostolic authority come through? what paul "saw" was really hallucination and anybody today could claim the same. i have never understood how paul squirmed in there when the lot fell on matthias.
Paul spoke to the real deal. Paul was zealous enough of his job- rounding up Christians and imprisoning them-
that little short of that would have gotten his attention.
Paul's entire life changed from that moment on- with God showing him many things after that.
Paul didn't squirm in- he was selected by Christ.
Matthias was voted in by a church council.
What do you think the Christians said when they met this guy, claiming to be the same Saul who was imprisoning them
a few days ago, a man complicit in Stephen's death, but was now claiming to be a Christian who spoke with Jesus?
Right- they could not initially take him seriously- it most obviously would be some kind of ploy to find more
Christians and imprison them. Eventually, they were convinced not only that he spoke with Jesus, but that he
was chosen by Jesus and sent to bear witness of him. It must have taken a LOT of proof to convince people.
How convinced would YOU be if Osama showed up in the public eye and claimed to repent his past, having
spoken to Jesus and been taught of him to repent his talk of hatred and violence?
It was much the same for Saul.
Years down the line, Paul was in charge and was given the authority to write several Epistles.
I reject the notion that the early Christians could not tell what was legitimate Scripture and what was
some schmuck in a corner.
Which reminds me- Paul spent the rest of his life persecuted, beaten, imprisoned, and more for the witness
of Jesus. Do you really think 1 hallucination could fuel that much zeal? I don't.
After a while, lack of positive reinforcement would mean Paul would just "retire."
Would that BE bringing new light to a generation? I think so.
Even if you want to squeeze in the "new light" thing, Paul, the 12 etc, brought new light, period, there doesn't seem to be provision for a new crop of apostles, supposing that the "new light" would be lost and in need of being reintroduced.
While I see your point, 1 hallucination of snow on the gas pumps stirred quite a bit of zealous activity.
Of course, maybe it was just a lie from its inception and not a hallucination.
Ha!! That made me laugh right out loud. . . but, although many were sacrificed at the altar of VP's lust. . . VP was not transformed like Paul. . . nor was he martyred for the Lord's sake. . . as were the Apostles. . . that was for a witness to us. . . more effective than a lie detector in my view.
Some people do say Christianity is based on the hallucinations of one man. . . however, Paul was not the only one to see the risen Lord. It would have to be a mass hallucinations going on. . . . . as He was seen by over 500 witnesses after His death. You hallucinate in your head. . . two people are not going to see the same thing at the same time. . . walk with Him. . . talk with Him. . . . besides. . . . the men with Paul also heard something, but did not see anyone.
If millions of people are still calling VP's new light. . . "truth". . . in 2000 years. . . we might just have to revisit the thought.
Though I don't want to get very involved in this discussion, I have been thinking about the gift ministries lately, specifically "pastor." Both in and out of TWI, I have know a lot of people who were called "pastor" and didn't know beans from barium what that meant. So I do believe there is a gift that is given to those who then use it to shepherd and undershepherd God's people, tenderly and lovingly with great concern. Remember how a good shepherd cares for his sheep? How Christ cares for us? That's the example the true pastor follows.
They don't do it for money or prestige or power, or to be able to get up in front of a bunch of people and draw attention to themselves.
Thinking back, I have only known two or three people who truly had a gift ministry of a pastor. Two of them were (gasp of horror) women.
Oh, and I do not believe being ordained means one has a gift ministry. Many people go quietly about God's business, keeping out of the spotlight, and are never recognized by man, only by God.
I agree with you in principle Watered Garden and you made some good points. And getting back to Dot's original discussion points, we can clearly read that there were false apostles in the first century as well. And after Paul's statement in verse 13, Paul immediately expresses that "Satan disguises himself as an angel of light". Or perhaps with VPW Satan disguised himself as some one who said they had new light, light that we had not seen the likes of since the first century. This to me in retrospect was a statement born of boastful talk and would classify one according to verse 12 as a false apostle.
2 Cor 11:12-15
12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
i have learned to look at things from the perspective of "every day life" to help me keep my wits about me and not be carried away by wanting things so much that i don't see the reality of things but only see what i want to see in things so i apply that alot to alot of subjects and religion is one of those subjects. it was brought up about osama and that's a good example because it's a "today" thing and it's easily understood in "today's" world. in that perspective i bring up the elvis sightings. how many people have seen the "risen" elvis who also saw the living elvis? how many people believe that elvis has risen because of the testimony of those many that have seen the "risen" elvis? and what court of law would accept anybody's "testimony" that the "risen" elvis left "instructions" and his lyrics to the "authority" to someone that had hated elvis, killed elvis fans and stood and held the clothes of a famous fan while that fan was beaten to death but one day on the way to killng more fans the "risen" elvis "visited" him and he "changed" dramatically? it makes no sense and nobody here would buy it for a second.
i started a new discussion so as to not take this one off track. sorry.
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waysider
It was a back-handed way of calling himself an apostle.
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Watered Garden
I'll just weigh in here ever so briefly to say I know at least two church planters who definitely are NOT apostles!
And that is all I'm gonna say on the matter!
WG
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RumRunner
You are the bully minded follower of a con man who starts a bs christian ministry. You know nothing more than screaming and intimidation. He (the con) engages in illicit sexual activity, massive chemical abuse, rape, and more. His resume reads like a cheap spy thriller. But you are his follower.
He gets ocular cancer and becomes a cyclops.
He deeds his ministry to you and has a big public event.
You accept this role as leader of a ministry as a GIFT - and proceed to destroy as many people as you can.
This is the definition of a Gift Ministry
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waysider
The "gift" part I get.
I'm still a little fuzzy on the "ministry" part, though.
(Is there such a thing as a "gift MLM"?)
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RumRunner
Thanks for the catch - I edited my post with some more snot I pulled out of my nose. Gift ministries my azz.
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waysider
Maybe they just crave attention---like this guy:
HERE
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Dot Matrix
Okay everybody I get it.
I still would like to know the definition we learned and if it had any scriptural backing.
Then, we can poke fun at VP. But I really want to know. Thanks
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Mark Sanguinetti
Below is a more biblically based definition of Apostle from the Nelson bible dictionary:
APOSTLE
The word apostle has a wider meaning in the letters of the apostle Paul. It includes people who, like himself, were not included in the Twelve, but who saw the risen Christ and were specially commissioned by Him. Paul's claim to be an apostle was questioned by others. He based his apostleship, however on the direct call of the exalted Lord who appeared to him on the Damascus Road and on the Lord's blessing of his ministry in winning converts and establishing churches (1 Cor 15:10).
Apparently, Paul also counted James, the Lord's brother, as an apostle (Gal 1:19). This James was not one of the Twelve; in fact, he was not a believer in Jesus before the Crucifixion (John 7:5). It was the resurrected Lord who 'appeared to James' (1 Cor 15:7) and presumably commissioned him for his ministry. When Paul says Jesus was seen not only by James but also by "all the apostles" (1 Cor 15:7), he seems to be describing a wider group than "the Twelve" to whom Jesus appeared earlier (1 Cor 15:5).
In 1 Cor 12:28 and Eph 4:11, apostles are listed along with prophets and other saints as part of the foundation of the household of God. In this strictly New Testament sense, apostles are confined to the first generation of Christians.
At an early stage in the church's history it was agreed that apostles to the Jews and Gentiles should be divided into separate camps. Paul and Barnabas were to concentrate on the evangelization of Gentiles; Peter, John, and James (the Lord's brother) were to continue evangelizing Jews (Gal 2:7-9).
As pioneers in the work of making converts and planting churches, apostles were exposed to special dangers. When persecution erupted, they were the primary targets for attack (1 Cor 4:9-13). Paul, in particular, welcomed the suffering which he endured as an apostle because it was his way of participating in the suffering of Christ (Rom 8:17; 2 Cor 1:5-7).
The authority committed to the apostles by Christ was unique. It could not be transmitted to others. The apostles could install elders or other leaders and teachers in the churches, and they could authorize them to assume special responsiblities; but apostolic authority could not be transferred. Their authority has not come to us through their successors; it has come through their writings, which are contained in the New Testament.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright ©1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
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Dot Matrix
Hi Mark!!! Long time no see! Thank you so much!
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Dot Matrix
Would that BE bringing new light to a generation? I think so. Paul was the one teaching that the non Jews were now accepted into the God stuff -- Even if not brand new never before heard stuff -- it seemed to shake up the Jews who wanted to keep it a Jew- birth only - good old boy club.
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RumRunner
Not entirely true about the Jewish good old boy club. There was provision in the law (albeit carrying very onerous conditions) for bringing an "unbeliever" into the fold of Israel...although I don't think it did anything for the "unbeliever" but maybe did something for like his 4th generation offspring if they stayed loyal...
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doojable
Dot - shoot me a PM. Please :)
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waysider
Two Points:
1. Using the logic of this definition, someone starting a revival of 1920's music or macrame purse making could be considered an "apostle".
2. Who gets to decide what is "light" and what isn't?
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WordWolf
As I see it, there's a short, working definition for each ministry, whether or not it's
a "gift" ministry.
As for apostle, the short definition is "SENT ONE."
There was never any sriptural backing for a definition involving "light",
whether "new" or "old".
Yes, my opinion is that vpw deliberately phrased his definitions so that people could
come along and say "that's what vpw is" while giving him plausible deniability because
he never actually came out and said "that's what I am." Thus, there's an element of
vagueness in some of his definitions, allowing him to slip between the cracks.
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brainfixed
why hasn't apostolic authority come through? what paul "saw" was really hallucination and anybody today could claim the same. i have never understood how paul squirmed in there when the lot fell on matthias.
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WordWolf
Paul spoke to the real deal. Paul was zealous enough of his job- rounding up Christians and imprisoning them-
that little short of that would have gotten his attention.
Paul's entire life changed from that moment on- with God showing him many things after that.
Paul didn't squirm in- he was selected by Christ.
Matthias was voted in by a church council.
What do you think the Christians said when they met this guy, claiming to be the same Saul who was imprisoning them
a few days ago, a man complicit in Stephen's death, but was now claiming to be a Christian who spoke with Jesus?
Right- they could not initially take him seriously- it most obviously would be some kind of ploy to find more
Christians and imprison them. Eventually, they were convinced not only that he spoke with Jesus, but that he
was chosen by Jesus and sent to bear witness of him. It must have taken a LOT of proof to convince people.
How convinced would YOU be if Osama showed up in the public eye and claimed to repent his past, having
spoken to Jesus and been taught of him to repent his talk of hatred and violence?
It was much the same for Saul.
Years down the line, Paul was in charge and was given the authority to write several Epistles.
I reject the notion that the early Christians could not tell what was legitimate Scripture and what was
some schmuck in a corner.
Which reminds me- Paul spent the rest of his life persecuted, beaten, imprisoned, and more for the witness
of Jesus. Do you really think 1 hallucination could fuel that much zeal? I don't.
After a while, lack of positive reinforcement would mean Paul would just "retire."
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waysider
While I see your point, 1 hallucination of snow on the gas pumps stirred quite a bit of zealous activity.
Of course, maybe it was just a lie from its inception and not a hallucination.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Some good points here as stated by Wordwolf. Thanks my friend.
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Oakspear
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geisha779
Ha!! That made me laugh right out loud. . . but, although many were sacrificed at the altar of VP's lust. . . VP was not transformed like Paul. . . nor was he martyred for the Lord's sake. . . as were the Apostles. . . that was for a witness to us. . . more effective than a lie detector in my view.
Some people do say Christianity is based on the hallucinations of one man. . . however, Paul was not the only one to see the risen Lord. It would have to be a mass hallucinations going on. . . . . as He was seen by over 500 witnesses after His death. You hallucinate in your head. . . two people are not going to see the same thing at the same time. . . walk with Him. . . talk with Him. . . . besides. . . . the men with Paul also heard something, but did not see anyone.
If millions of people are still calling VP's new light. . . "truth". . . in 2000 years. . . we might just have to revisit the thought.
Funny observation though.
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year2027
God first
hi Dot Matrix
to see Christ like Paul saw Christ is nothing new my friend
I have saw Christ I even put my hands in his side but I have dream it could happen to me but it did
do I want yell from a roof top I not told until a need enter my sight to tell another person
do people think I am crazy because I wrote the truth of what Christ shared with me
No
EWB wrote about what makes an Apostle in many books that is were DrVPW got the ideal from
Eps 1:1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God --- Jesus Christ call Paul to be an apostle by God's will or blessings
the new light they in his life has seeing an apostle life what he was teaching them
but it was not new it was just told by a different person with greater understanding
love Roy
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Watered Garden
Though I don't want to get very involved in this discussion, I have been thinking about the gift ministries lately, specifically "pastor." Both in and out of TWI, I have know a lot of people who were called "pastor" and didn't know beans from barium what that meant. So I do believe there is a gift that is given to those who then use it to shepherd and undershepherd God's people, tenderly and lovingly with great concern. Remember how a good shepherd cares for his sheep? How Christ cares for us? That's the example the true pastor follows.
They don't do it for money or prestige or power, or to be able to get up in front of a bunch of people and draw attention to themselves.
Thinking back, I have only known two or three people who truly had a gift ministry of a pastor. Two of them were (gasp of horror) women.
Oh, and I do not believe being ordained means one has a gift ministry. Many people go quietly about God's business, keeping out of the spotlight, and are never recognized by man, only by God.
WG
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Mark Sanguinetti
I agree with you in principle Watered Garden and you made some good points. And getting back to Dot's original discussion points, we can clearly read that there were false apostles in the first century as well. And after Paul's statement in verse 13, Paul immediately expresses that "Satan disguises himself as an angel of light". Or perhaps with VPW Satan disguised himself as some one who said they had new light, light that we had not seen the likes of since the first century. This to me in retrospect was a statement born of boastful talk and would classify one according to verse 12 as a false apostle.
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brainfixed
i have learned to look at things from the perspective of "every day life" to help me keep my wits about me and not be carried away by wanting things so much that i don't see the reality of things but only see what i want to see in things so i apply that alot to alot of subjects and religion is one of those subjects. it was brought up about osama and that's a good example because it's a "today" thing and it's easily understood in "today's" world. in that perspective i bring up the elvis sightings. how many people have seen the "risen" elvis who also saw the living elvis? how many people believe that elvis has risen because of the testimony of those many that have seen the "risen" elvis? and what court of law would accept anybody's "testimony" that the "risen" elvis left "instructions" and his lyrics to the "authority" to someone that had hated elvis, killed elvis fans and stood and held the clothes of a famous fan while that fan was beaten to death but one day on the way to killng more fans the "risen" elvis "visited" him and he "changed" dramatically? it makes no sense and nobody here would buy it for a second.
i started a new discussion so as to not take this one off track. sorry.
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