New here just wanna say hi!

[mstar1]

The "schizophrenic" part of it is that these "men" want to be (or have the appearance of being) some kind of great "menogawd".. and that is a PUBLIC role. But they feel inquiry is a violation of their private lives.. which makes me conclude, their public and private lives and ethics are far, far removed from one another..

in real life, they have no more power than me.. no power to silence their (supposed) critics..

their pants don't go on any different in the morning..

The odd thing is that if what they have is so unbelievably wonderful as they tell you, you would think that they would want to share it with the rest of the world and correct our misperceptions instead of running and hiding, or just never coming out of the wood work in the first place. Isnt there something about "hiding your light under a bushel".

I have sat with Bishops and Archbishops, Higher ups of various denominations and 95% of the ones that I have talked to are straightforward and honest even in regards to the obvious problems that they face. In other words even if I dont agree with them on certain matters at the least they deal with things in an honorable way as part of their 'witness', most of them I have genuine appreciation for....and although I would never use a phrase like "man of God" to describe anyone, some I admire and might consider it if I had no other words available to me.

I really dont understand the "we have some great secret that you dont" mentality, or the John Lynn type driveby "buy my book" postings of a few years ago either.

Christianity especially the organized kind is hard enough to get my head around under the best of circumstances let alone someone slamming me with "buy my stuff"

"Bumper Sticker Christianity" replete with false bravado, secrecy, and an attitude does nothing for me, it holds about as much spiritual appeal as Billy Mays hawking OxyClean or Vince selling ShamWows (absolutely amazing!!! act now!! bring your credit card!!) on 3 AM TV.

I'll give him a chance by fercryinoutloud how the heck does he expect to convince anyone of anything with his current stance.

He seems like a good kid, Working all these hours I hope that he is saving up for either his years of therapy or his years of alcoholism when it finally dawns on him how they took advantage of him and his naivete.

O---and have the damn courage to speak up Saint Vic Jr, Im talking to you, paint your own damn house you lazy weasel

Edited July 18, 2009 by mstar1

[frank123lol]

Shucks,Thats why he (vic jr) dont have to work,hes too damn "important"

After all,we can lose alotta peons,but not the all important "man o god".

As Ham said "he vis no different than us,Mac dad and other old guys he aint your paycheck,God is our sufficency.

[leafytwiglet]

It is interesting that the thing we are most concerned with is that our drive by poster does not fall prey to the same evil that we all did.

Our biggest concern is that he not waste any of his life.. and we are asking for answers to questions that would point out the facts that that is exactly what SOWERS is.

I wonder if He has been on line with out posting but has read what has been written her.

I wonder if it has added to his own doubts and question.

Obviously he has them.. and obviously his parents are involved in this new variation of TWI so maybe he can not really feel free to say what he think

Or maybe as some one else mentioned maybe it is just that he was sent here as part of his mission.

Oh I have to come back in a bit to write more

Hugs to you all

Caleb if you read this maybe you can PM some of the posters. For privacy

[waysider]

I wonder if they had "night owls" and "pajama parties" like their predecessors.

:o

[waysider]

Ya know, this is another good reason anonymity can be a good thing. Now that the kid has "outed" himself by revealing his real name, it must be terribly difficult to come back here and offer any kind of response without hearing from his leadership. Of course, I suppose it would have been a bit difficult to conceal his identity in view of the fact that there were only 4 graduates.

(assuming he was really who he said he was, not someone else using his name as a shill)

Edited July 20, 2009 by waysider

[Ham]

I'd just be happy to know the kid is still in one piece..

[Ham]

The thing I don't understand is the dodging and secrecy.. I mean, isn't it just a tad bit EARLY in the life cycle of an organization for that? I thought that came after they had more than just a few volunteers, and lotsa money flowing in the coffers..

they"ve skipped all the preliminary steps (along with the loot) and gone directly to da way as it is today..

gone from zero to abundantly over-arrogant in less than a year..

maybe it was just founded in bitterness and arrogance.. to begin with.

[Jim]

Well, it appears that our young hero ran off before I could ask the hard questions. Just the same, here they are:

1. What is the Sowers position on adultery?

2. What is the Sowers position on abortion?

3. What is the Sowers position on alcohol addiction by leadership?

4. Is there a Sowers charter or bylaws that:

A) gives members the right to examine Sowers financial data?

B) gives members the right to remove corrupt or incompetent leadership?

5. Does Sowers leadership believe that "All the women of the kingdom belong to the king"?

These were major issues abused or glossed over by TWI leadership. I didn't state them to be funny or a wiseass.

I don't care what you do with your life. I'm just giving you fair warning that if you don't consider these issues, you may find yourself old and regretting that you spent some of the best years of your life supporting a corrupt organization.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

...Good questions Jim. I don't suppose that our young Sowers poster has those answers...and if he did, they would probably be the same crapola that was spoon fed to us those many years ago...

The bottom line is that these creeps are just another example of how the scam that Wierwille pulled on everyone is still alive and well...God sells...collect the money and convince yourselves that you are the "ones". Yeah right, been there, done that...and I'm the fifth Beatle too.

Vic jr...get a real job before you end up in a rubber room.

[Ham]

I was thinking something like that.. look what the "cult" life turned a college educated jock into in the old *ministry*..

a nutcase with delusions of grandeur.. and when defrocked, likely a diet of sedatives and anti-depressants that would stop a bull elephant..

that's partly what one of my questions referred to.. what are you going to do when it doesn't really "work"..

[Ham]

Well, it appears that our young hero ran off before I could ask the hard questions. Just the same, here they are:

1. What is the Sowers position on adultery?

2. What is the Sowers position on abortion?

3. What is the Sowers position on alcohol addiction by leadership?

4. Is there a Sowers charter or bylaws that:

A) gives members the right to examine Sowers financial data?

B) gives members the right to remove corrupt or incompetent leadership?

5. Does Sowers leadership believe that "All the women of the kingdom belong to the king"?

These were major issues abused or glossed over by TWI leadership. I didn't state them to be funny or a wiseass.

I don't care what you do with your life. I'm just giving you fair warning that if you don't consider these issues, you may find yourself old and regretting that you spent some of the best years of your life supporting a corrupt organization.

And I'll add..

what is the sowers bylaws or ethics regarding sexual relations between staff and "students"..?

is it ok for the spiritually "mature"?

or is it another way for a "manogawd" to be able to "minister" to the group.. like gramps said, an area for a "manogawd" to "lighten up" in..

or is it.. what? Can you honestly say, "wrong on all counts"?

or is that too much "legalism" to yoke a blood sucking sycophant with?

Can you just say ANYTHING?

Note: this is not an accusation. It is a question..

I would have much rather have preferred a discrete simple personal answer.. but now its long past that..

like the original question, what are you doing that is any bit different from the old "ministry"..

These really should not be "hard questions"..

if they are that hard.. I've made it easy.. try multiple choice..

I've made it as easy as it can possibly be..

If you don't like inquiry, you are in the wrong business, bub..

[Ham]

A "real" organization would have someone responsible to respond to this kind of public inquiry..

long before it got "out of hand"..

now you've got hundreds of issues to address.. to show not to me, though that would be nice.. but to yourself.. that your organization is worth even a grain of salt..

[Ham]

So after the great "training".. you've got one "graduate" that's confused.. but still sold (somewhat) on your product..

1. Didn't like the "rules"

2. Admits it wasn't "perfect"

3. Learned "something".. but cannot exactly verbalise what "it" is..

4. Calls a largely unproven youth a "great man of god".. and doesn't really exactly know why..

that's twenty five percent of the results that we know, of your program..

of everything he posts.. the only thing he is really solid on.. he considers a young, unproven youth as a "great man of god".

was that the entire aim of the "training"?

well, just one more question to put in queue..

[Ham]

and.. the main reason I did not go through your "support group".. I don't think your aunt should have to relive this kind of bull crap..I will never bring matters to that.. though you might..

you're on your own fella..

[RumRunner]

Ham you just need to learn to be more outspoken - smirk

[Ham]

And to the board.. the only one I'd remotely consider in your "support group" who I'd trust to launch any kind of inquiry.. is dead..

and you waited what.. about a month so he'd be cold in the ground, before you did your official ground breaking..

Edited July 26, 2009 by Ham

[Ham]

I can almost see him saying "I'll be stone cold dead before this happens again.."

say whatever negative you would like about him.. he did confront gramps on putting some kind of austerity and accountability (teeth) into the love of God..

and what do you particular set of morons do..

[Ham]

Just so I get the wording correct here.. he confronted the vicster, who was at the time rambling on about demanding accountability and putting "teeth" in the "love of god", vic I hissing about how the "love of god" doesn't work.. hafta do something drastic to people..

I don't think there is anybody left in that organization who would have an ounce of objectivity, at least as regards this little adventure in the swamp.

I don't think there is a competent "body" or "church" to even work with here..

[Bramble]

Sad. Seems the new boss is the same as the old boss.

Must obey authoritay!

[Jim]

I, for one, welcome our new Wierwille overlords....

[JeffSjo]

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end?

One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again.

OMG

I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying!

Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing".

Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post?

Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose.

TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

[Ham]

Not just that.. but isn't it LAME? Where's the "boldness", in him or in the *wonderful* administrators of the program?

Lame, and pathetic..

they won't visit anywhere, it seems, where their arrogance just might be challenged..

anything that is said, is likely only to a controlled audience.

I really think, When the old man, mac and the few other "old timers".. whoever they may be are gone, this little venture will turn into a wierwille brothers (and cousins) club..

there will be a whole family of numbnuts who can't be voted off.. if it ever makes it that far.

why they want to sow that kind of corruption in their own family is beyond me..

[JeffSjo]

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime.

Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle.

It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor."

So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are.

I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

[waysider]

why they want to sow that kind of corruption in their own family is beyond me..

Well, they have to fulfill that old "prophesy" (cough), that the "word" will live as long as there are members of the Wierwille family "standing". (whatever that means.)

Edited July 27, 2009 by waysider

[Ham]

I have a really, really bad feeling and suspicion.. I'll have to check on it..