I was actually being nice.. he was the first one from the group to offer a few answers..
who REALLY should be here doling out answers is.. the board. Whoever they all happen to be.. not this "young man"..
if they had an ounce of honor that is..
it appears as the same ploy practiced by the old ministry.. send its "followers" out to take the brunt of hard questions.. hide in the safety of some corn field or farm swamp somewhere.. send out dictates (ahem, teaching cd's) once in a while..
As long as its humanly possible, NEVER put oneself in an uncontrolled situation. That seems to be where da "ministry" ended up, half way through to present..
Caleb, would you please kindly forward the questions to the board? Surely they would want to know peoples genuine concerns, and address them, wouldn't they?
Jeff, my post was well meant ... an attempt at a gentle reminder of where we all came from and how far we have come together. I`d hate to see someone feel so besieged and bullied that they were uncomfortable sharing and in return maybe learning a little bit from our perspective as well. I apologize for not communicating that better.
I am afraid that rr is reading a nastiness towards you into my post that I never intended.
You are a pretty fair fellow, so I hope that you can read my request with the understanding and in the spirit that it was given.
I am afraid that rr is reading a nastiness towards you into my post that I never intended.
No Rascal - not reading any nastiness in your post although your allegation about me is about the same as reading nastiness into my post - I just happen to disagree with you rather radically - but hey that isn't anything new twixt you and me is it?
Want a recipe for a great martini? Might lighten up some posts.
This kid had the guts to post, and the grace to apologize. There are several pages of questions directed at him, some pretty harsh. It might seem like a gang banging to him.
I'd like to hear what he has to say.
Nah, he hasn't responded. Right now, he has 10 posts, nearly all in the early part of this thread, none responding to any of the four pages of questions here.
I think we'd all like to hear what he has to say, if he can say it rationally and calmly. We see it as the thin end of the wedge, but he probably doesn't. I'd like to know what he really has learned (and not about farming, either) - what has he learned about people and handling situations in a genuinely Godly way?
The uproar on this thread and the strength of feeling displayed should give him further pause to think and consider what he may (or may not) have learned. If he is wise, he will be asking himself the same questions posed on this thread.
But he hasn't responded at all. Given no information, answered no questions. Just provoked people and stirred up anger. So that's why I wonder if he is a serious poster or merely a poser.
But twinky he did give information. His age, a little bit about his back ground etc. He really doesn`t owe us anything at all. Seems like a nice guy to me. Young idealistic, on fire for God.
He reminds me of us 20 years ago, no?
Maybe I am wrong..shrug it was just how I saw things at the time. Otherwise kind and caring people who seemed hostile in their posts. I just wanted to remember that we are talking to a young man whom has not the scope or experience to understand the roots and possible pit falls of this group.
I know if folks tried to talk to me about the ministry like we just did when I was his age, I`d have been a lot more provoking...lol
I just felt like maybe if we were a bit more understanding, a bit less interrogating, he might get to know and appreciate some of our points of view.
But twinky he did give information. His age, a little bit about his back ground etc. He really doesn`t owe us anything at all. Seems like a nice guy to me. Young idealistic, on fire for God.
He reminds me of us 20 years ago, no?
Maybe I am wrong..shrug it was just how I saw things at the time. Otherwise kind and caring people who seemed hostile in their posts. I just wanted to remember that we are talking to a young man whom has not the scope or experience to understand the roots and possible pit falls of this group.
I know if folks tried to talk to me about the ministry like we just did when I was his age, I`d have been a lot more provoking...lol
I just felt like maybe if we were a bit more understanding, a bit less interrogating, he might get to know and appreciate some of our points of view.
Yes Rascal - sounds like us 30 years ago - not 20 - and do you want him walking down the same paths we did or do you want to grab him by the shirt collar and yell "NO MAN don't do it!" Or since horror is one of your favorite terms here at GSC do you want him and his loved ones to experience the same?
Come on Rascal - don't give this guy room to drown - help bail him out.
He entered a site filled with folks the same age as his mother and was combative. Even though he apologized later, he still started his thread in an antagonistic fashion. I understand enthusiasm, but rudeness?
I was his age 30 years ago. As a responsible adult, shouldn't I (and others) be helping him learn from our mistakes?
Would your kids walk up to adult strangers and start flinging around insults and threats? I doubt it. I get impetuousness, but that doesn't make it right.
And after all, part of the reason we post here at GSC is so that people can come here and read and avoid the mistakes we made thirty years ago.
Let me say I am really glad that you are here. It is obvious you have strong feelings for your group and your beliefs and there is nothing wrong with that. But frankly, if you are one of the students in the SOWERS group I am guessing you are pretty young and your life's experience is pretty limited. You know only what you have been exposed to by your parents and those they allowed around you. I can only hope that when you are older, you do not look back on your experiences and realize that you wasted prime years of your life giving your focus, energy, love, and best efforts to a man or a group that was as self-serving and down-right evil as they come, which is what happened to most of us on this forum.
Now, to address some specifics:
I know the feelings a d opinions that are presented on this website torwards the WAY dr. weirwillie, the sowers program, and the word in general. They are not favorable.
Not favorable toward TWI and DocVic, agreed (for the most part)
Not favorable toward the Word in general, mmmm... really? I think you will find a great many practicing Christians here. The only "word" they are unfavorable towards is the bolloxed-up mess that was taught as "the word" in twi.
I do not mind people disaggreeing with me however, i ask you to be polite and respectful.
I am not a violent person, however, if you want to make any personal attacks against him, you had best not let me know your true identity. I am willing to fight over comments made about him.Trust me, you really dont want a ....ed off redneck knockin' at your door.
Yeah... that's polite and respectful. You come to an OPEN forum and demand WE play nice, then YOU make threats. Is this the example set by your leadership? Or is this just the heavy-handed tactic you think will work best with a bunch of cop-outs? Perhaps the acorn really doesn't fall very far from the tree.
If you wish to accuse anyone of anything, i ask that you do so only if you WERE ACTUALLY THERE AND EXPERIENCED IT FIRSTHAND!
Victor weirwille ... is agreat man of God, and a great person in general. He is one of the most loving, caring, kindest people I have ever met. When it comes to teh word he knows his stuff and tries his best to live a Godly lifestyle. BUT! he does not shove it down anyones throat, he doesnt think he is the end all be all authority on all things God, he is very humble...
First, I am not aware of anyone on this forum "accusing" V2P2 of anything, except of following a format of teaching and doctrine that is eerily close to his grandad's. And that's not an accusation, that's a fact. The rest of the comments are simply speculation; rude and rough at times, I'll grant you, but nothing like an actual accusation.
No, we don't know the up-close-and-personal content of what is being taught at SOWERS, that is true. But after spending years of our lives being told "black is white" and "white is black" most of us now think "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it sure as heck isn't an elephant"! So, understand, while you say your humble leader is loving and gentle and kind and "knows his stuff" well, we know where a lot of his "stuff" came from so we have a really hard time believing you. --- Let me clarify: we believe you THINK these things and are genuine in your own personal assessment, we just think we have more long-term experience and understanding of the whole picture than you do, so it's hard to put much faith in what you are saying.
I heard him yell only once or twice in ten months, and that as because he needed to get someone's attention. I am damn proud to consider him a friend ... respectful, and someone who i will aggressively defend.
Well, this may indeed be the whole measure of the man. But many of us could have said (and DID say) the same of DocVic only to later discover how misled we were and how two-faced he was and how much damage he was doing to our brothers and sisters in Christ behind the scenes.
I can only hope you are correct in your assessment of Vic the grandson. But many of us here have to ask: if he is such a Godly man, why the heck is he imitating methods and programs set up by his very unGodly grandfather?
No Rascal - not reading any nastiness in your post although your allegation about me is about the same as reading nastiness into my post - I just happen to disagree with you rather radically - but hey that isn't anything new twixt you and me is it?
Want a recipe for a great martini? Might lighten up some posts.
No thanks, I don`t feel I need to drink in order to post.
Please feel free to put my posts on your handy dandy little ignore button and then you won`t be further irritated by my sobriety, or disagreeable point of view. They are mine, I am not constrained to post only in the manner in which rr approves and appreciates. :)
No thanks, I don`t feel I need to drink in order to post.
Please feel free to put my posts on your handy dandy little ignore button and then you won`t be further irritated by my sobriety, or disagreeable point of view. They are mine, I am not constrained to post only in the manner in which rr approves and appreciates. :)
Wow - you are one bitter one eh? Jokes? Humor? All escape you unless you are the center of... oh never mind... I confess you are so much fun. I would never want to constrain you - so much fun just reading your posts - makes my early morning hours more interesting than the news - you still afraid of anthrax? Geezuz go to USAAMRID and get some facts. BTW my daughter wears a class 5 containment suit and has less paranoia than you by a long shot. Go fly to Nicaragua for a nice tropical visit.
In fact you most certainly do not need my approval to post your thoughts I just find them entertaining
Dooj How can anyone hear the *responsible adults* if what one sees lines up with the worst that he has been told about the copped out possibly devil possessed disgruntled former followers of twi?
Shoot, I had responsible adults trying to help me 30 years ago...I couldn`t hear what they had to say because when they said it, though time later proved them to be right, they were attacking a group and people that I loved.
It was the people who were able to share things with me in a non confrontational way that planted seeds that later germinated into the niggling doubts that eventually opened the doors to my departure.
I also think that as responsible adults, it is possible to have the capacity for kindness, the maturity to see past the controversy and the capability to present our points in a manner that someone can receive, rather than just getting upset and lambasting someone for their choices.
I hardly say never.. but I think it applies here.. we will NEVER see anyone in "authority" in that organization publically answer questions, in an uncontrolled setting..
I think they have cut every last thread holding themselves to any kind of accountability, to anyone. Same as the parent organization.
There is no debate. Period. It's looks like a paramilitary organization..and that's the impression they are ALLOWING me to have.
they appear to use the same tactics.. send out "inductees" to do their dirty work.
And sit back as lazy, overweight, "lords".. figuring how to move the pawns around..
I think that is a calm, reasonable, logical perception..
no, I don't think we will EVER see anyone give any real answers..
Dooj How can anyone hear the *responsible adults* if what one sees lines up with the worst that he has been told about the copped out possibly devil possessed disgruntled former followers of twi?
Shoot, I had responsible adults trying to help me 30 years ago...I couldn`t hear what they had to say because when they said it, though time later proved them to be right, they were attacking a group and people that I loved.
It was the people who were able to share things with me in a non confrontational way that planted seeds that later germinated into the niggling doubts that eventually opened the doors to my departure.
I also think that as responsible adults, it is possible to have the capacity for kindness, the maturity to see past the controversy and the capability to present our points in a manner that someone can receive, rather than just getting upset and lambasting someone for their choices.
Rascal - let's look at this for a moment...
A lot of questions have been posed - which S-'09 asked for.
Some folks swatted him for asking for respect while he gave none out, Granted, Sower explained that and apologized. But ya' gotta admit that's one heck of a way to enter a crowd - and not a good way. I'll give him lack of wisdom because of his youth. But he did apologize - something I'm still deciding came from him or his leaders.
And... now that I think of it... his first post said he'd answer questions... then eventually he posted that he was working 60-70 hours a week. What? He didn't know that he'd be busy when he first made the invitation? I'm thinking that something doesn't smell quite right with this thread...
As to how folks are responding...
You've posted that you take karate. Think about this for a second, if you will. If you were in a sparring match with a young buck, would you soft touch him or her? The way I see it, S-'09 was asking to spar in his first post.
I'd like to see him answer some or all of the questions on this thread. More importantly, I'd like to see the thinking process behind the answers. I just happen to think that the point of this thread was never intended to inform us. I have no delusions that S-'09 will be "rescued" from his cult.
He didn't come here to find out more - that's our gig. I'm not of a mind to project my intentions onto this young man. He didn't come here as some lost soul looking for answers. He came here with the intent of telling us how it is - and even that hasn't panned out too well.
Now - for a page or two or even three - we're waiting. I'm thinking that if he doesn't answer soon, that the point was to see what fur could fly around here among us.
I'm going to sit back and wait. I'm still skeptical as whether or not answers are really forthcoming.
A lot of questions have been posed - which S-'09 asked for.
Some folks swatted him for asking for respect while he gave none out, Granted, Sower explained that and apologized. But ya' gotta admit that's one heck of a way to enter a crowd - and not a good way. I'll give him lack of wisdom because of his youth. But he did apologize - something I'm still deciding came from him or his leaders.
And... now that I think of it... his first post said he'd answer questions... then eventually he posted that he was working 60-70 hours a week. What? He didn't know that he'd be busy when he first made the invitation? I'm thinking that something doesn't smell quite right with this thread...
As to how folks are responding...
You've posted that you take karate. Think about this for a second, if you will. If you were in a sparring match with a young buck, would you soft touch him or her? The way I see it, S-'09 was asking to spar in his first post.
I'd like to see him answer some or all of the questions on this thread. More importantly, I'd like to see the thinking process behind the answers. I just happen to think that the point of this thread was never intended to inform us. I have no delusions that S-'09 will be "rescued" from his cult.
He didn't come here to find out more - that's our gig. I'm not of a mind to project my intentions onto this young man. He didn't come here as some lost soul looking for answers. He came here with the intent of telling us how it is - and even that hasn't panned out too well.
Now - for a page or two or even three - we're waiting. I'm thinking that if he doesn't answer soon, that the point was to see what fur could fly around here among us.
I'm going to sit back and wait. I'm still skeptical as whether or not answers are really forthcoming.
Dooj, as a karate student, We are trained to exert just enough force to protect ones self, whether it be a young buck in class, a competition, or indeed in a real life self defense situation. No more. In a competition unnecessary force is penalized by point loss, in real life, legally prosecutable.
As I improve, my ability to disarm an opponent and render them unable to cause harm without doing damage is a mark of the level of my competence. So yeah, I would attempt to treat the youngster with a soft touch knowing that education, experience and maturity has made it important for me to show restraint instead of *taking him out* even when he acts as if he deserves it.
I was thinking about something I read a long time ago. An actress was taking lessons from Chuck Norris (don't laugh!) and she insisted that he spar with her in an alley while she was in heels. Her thinking was that she'd never really need to defend herself while she was in a ghee and barefooted. She wanted him to all out fight with her - so that she could learn how to really defend herself in a real fight.
My ignorance of the art shows...
I still think a lot of bait has been thrown out on this thread...
I was thinking about something I read a long time ago. An actress was taking lessons from Chuck Norris (don't laugh!) and she insisted that he spar with her in an alley while she was in heels. Her thinking was that she'd never really need to defend herself while she was in a ghee and barefooted. She wanted him to all out fight with her - so that she could learn how to really defend herself in a real fight.
My ignorance of the art shows...
I still think a lot of bait has been thrown out on this thread...
No laughing here, I admire Chuck Norris and your point is absolutely valid. Now I understand a little better what you were talking about. Thanks for clarifying :)
Way WAY off topic:
My very favorite CN story is where he was teaching Steve Mqueen privately, and it was decided that attending a yoga class would help loosen tight muscles. The two macho men were required to don leotards, Chuck using his superior speed and agility to snatch the blue ones leaving Steve the pink....Him telling Steve to suck it up as they left the dressing room in their finery only to have Chuck quickly step back into the dressing room slam and lock the door leaving Steve out in the middle of the studio with all of the tittering ladies dressed in pink leotards :)
The way I see it, S-'09 was asking to spar in his first post.
Maybe he was. I'm still not sure that sparring with anyone does anything other than teach someone how to defend and attack. The problem with taking this tactic is that the physical response drains the blood from the head, which causes people to start reacting and stop thinking. I don't believe he is a threat in the real sense of the word, so the response is unwarranted (IMO) and unproductive (again, IMO).
He made a typical "opinionated newbie" entrance into this forum. Even though it's a universal experience in every forum I've frequented since 1992, and most of us regulars here should be aware that it happens, there's always a few who pounce on the person (with a highly developed sense of justification for doing so).
Is it necessary?
If he leaves and never comes back, we (collectively) can rationalize those reasons all we want (and are free to do so), but there will be the element that we (collectively) wouldn't meet him where he is. In my world, that's not something to be proud of.
Jeff, I think you ought to lighten up a bit. Caleb apologized. Most of us don`t have a full understanding of how truly reprehensible twi leaders and off shoot leaders behavior has been when we arrive here. I seem to remember being reprimanded by you for speaking ill of wierwille when you first arrived. It takes time to learn and come to grips with the true horrors of what many of us have suffered.
It takes time to re evaluate an entire life time of beliefs and teachings in light of that.
I don`t think that running at somebody with a ball bat swinging is going to help them hear a different point of view.
This kid had the guts to post, and the grace to apologize. There are several pages of questions directed at him, some pretty harsh. It might seem like a gang banging to him.
I`d like to hear what he has to say.
Hey Rascal,
Last night I could only be on line for a couple of minutes so I had no time to respond. I LAUGHED AND LAUGHED ABOUT THE VERY FACT THAT YOU WERE STEPPING IN TO HELP ME DEAL WITH SOWERS 09. I certainly know that you know how to swing the shovel around when you feel it necessary, as a matter of fact, when I first got here one of the things that I liked the very most here at the Greasespot was how you fought it out with certain bullies.
And yesterday I really feel that it might have been nice to have a friend near. Yes I was a little upset, so I'll take you words as such, a calming influence.
HERE GOES THE LAUGHTER AGAIN.
I mean that sincerely Rascal, with all due respect!
ROFL
I remember once when we were confronting somebodie's ministerial bullying and I suggested to you that we save our point for another time and another thread. And then I could only watch as you just jumped right in and kept swinging away with your little old shovel....sigh....ROFL.
So while I think you are right that it is time for me to chill out now I still find great enjoyment in this particular exchange.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
But oh yeah, on a little more serious note.
If my own son grew up and actually learned that it was o.k. to bully people like S.O.W.E.R.S.09 did in that first post I'd let him have it too, and I wouldn't have held back as much as I did with Sower either.
This young lad needs some immediate edumacation IMO and in a case like this I feel it is perfectly acceptable for us older gents to make it perfectly clear to these kids what they are doing. Especially when a young guy is bullying vulnerable folks. I think it is perfectly legitimate for these dumbazz kids to be told their error in a manner they have already shown a willingness to utilize. And when the issue is bullying, well, whether straight up or only implied I am usually willing to think that their cure won't come from any book lernin, if you get my drift.
But as to the overall topic of the thread, I feel that many of you actually know the people involved and have been keeping up with these things for some time. So I'll gladly leave you to it. Heck, I'm interested in where this thread goes too.
BUT I MEANT EACH AND EVERY WORD TOO!
(added in editing)
Dear rascal,
I hope that you know that even though I know you don't need my help with anything else going on here on this thread, I'M A WILLIN if'n you want.
Maybe he was. I'm still not sure that sparring with anyone does anything other than teach someone how to defend and attack. The problem with taking this tactic is that the physical response drains the blood from the head, which causes people to start reacting and stop thinking. I don't believe he is a threat in the real sense of the word, so the response is unwarranted (IMO) and unproductive (again, IMO).
He made a typical "opinionated newbie" entrance into this forum. Even though it's a universal experience in every forum I've frequented since 1992, and most of us regulars here should be aware that it happens, there's always a few who pounce on the person (with a highly developed sense of justification for doing so).
Is it necessary?
If he leaves and never comes back, we (collectively) can rationalize those reasons all we want (and are free to do so), but there will be the element that we (collectively) wouldn't meet him where he is. In my world, that's not something to be proud of.
Let's see - the thread is now nearly 100 posts long... and only ten or so have been from from the thread starter.
Most of the posts (initially) were asking questions and telling the young lad to be polite, along with some welcomes. The last page or two has been all of us discussing "stuff." Now we've stopped talking to him, and about him, and we're talking to each other about ourselves.
I still think there was a level of dishonesty in how the thread was started. Time will tell.
I'll read it again - but I just don't view this thread as being threatening to someone. If he's as tough as he claims, then he'll take it as well as he dished it out.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Thinking about this stuff for a few days now...Sowers?.... Let me see if I got this straight...The grandson of the grand pubah (who just happens to have the same name) starts a "thing" that closely r
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mstar1
The odd thing is that if what they have is so unbelievably wonderful as they tell you, you would think that they would want to share it with the rest of the world and correct our misperceptions instea
Ham
I was actually being nice.. he was the first one from the group to offer a few answers..
who REALLY should be here doling out answers is.. the board. Whoever they all happen to be.. not this "young man"..
if they had an ounce of honor that is..
it appears as the same ploy practiced by the old ministry.. send its "followers" out to take the brunt of hard questions.. hide in the safety of some corn field or farm swamp somewhere.. send out dictates (ahem, teaching cd's) once in a while..
As long as its humanly possible, NEVER put oneself in an uncontrolled situation. That seems to be where da "ministry" ended up, half way through to present..
Caleb, would you please kindly forward the questions to the board? Surely they would want to know peoples genuine concerns, and address them, wouldn't they?
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rascal
Jeff, my post was well meant ... an attempt at a gentle reminder of where we all came from and how far we have come together. I`d hate to see someone feel so besieged and bullied that they were uncomfortable sharing and in return maybe learning a little bit from our perspective as well. I apologize for not communicating that better.
I am afraid that rr is reading a nastiness towards you into my post that I never intended.
You are a pretty fair fellow, so I hope that you can read my request with the understanding and in the spirit that it was given.
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RumRunner
No Rascal - not reading any nastiness in your post although your allegation about me is about the same as reading nastiness into my post - I just happen to disagree with you rather radically - but hey that isn't anything new twixt you and me is it?
Want a recipe for a great martini? Might lighten up some posts.
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Twinky
Nah, he hasn't responded. Right now, he has 10 posts, nearly all in the early part of this thread, none responding to any of the four pages of questions here.
I think we'd all like to hear what he has to say, if he can say it rationally and calmly. We see it as the thin end of the wedge, but he probably doesn't. I'd like to know what he really has learned (and not about farming, either) - what has he learned about people and handling situations in a genuinely Godly way?
The uproar on this thread and the strength of feeling displayed should give him further pause to think and consider what he may (or may not) have learned. If he is wise, he will be asking himself the same questions posed on this thread.
But he hasn't responded at all. Given no information, answered no questions. Just provoked people and stirred up anger. So that's why I wonder if he is a serious poster or merely a poser.
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rascal
But twinky he did give information. His age, a little bit about his back ground etc. He really doesn`t owe us anything at all. Seems like a nice guy to me. Young idealistic, on fire for God.
He reminds me of us 20 years ago, no?
Maybe I am wrong..shrug it was just how I saw things at the time. Otherwise kind and caring people who seemed hostile in their posts. I just wanted to remember that we are talking to a young man whom has not the scope or experience to understand the roots and possible pit falls of this group.
I know if folks tried to talk to me about the ministry like we just did when I was his age, I`d have been a lot more provoking...lol
I just felt like maybe if we were a bit more understanding, a bit less interrogating, he might get to know and appreciate some of our points of view.
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RumRunner
Yes Rascal - sounds like us 30 years ago - not 20 - and do you want him walking down the same paths we did or do you want to grab him by the shirt collar and yell "NO MAN don't do it!" Or since horror is one of your favorite terms here at GSC do you want him and his loved ones to experience the same?
Come on Rascal - don't give this guy room to drown - help bail him out.
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doojable
I dunno...
S-'09 came here and threw some chum in the water.
He entered a site filled with folks the same age as his mother and was combative. Even though he apologized later, he still started his thread in an antagonistic fashion. I understand enthusiasm, but rudeness?
I was his age 30 years ago. As a responsible adult, shouldn't I (and others) be helping him learn from our mistakes?
Would your kids walk up to adult strangers and start flinging around insults and threats? I doubt it. I get impetuousness, but that doesn't make it right.
And after all, part of the reason we post here at GSC is so that people can come here and read and avoid the mistakes we made thirty years ago.
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TheHighWay
Caleb,
Let me say I am really glad that you are here. It is obvious you have strong feelings for your group and your beliefs and there is nothing wrong with that. But frankly, if you are one of the students in the SOWERS group I am guessing you are pretty young and your life's experience is pretty limited. You know only what you have been exposed to by your parents and those they allowed around you. I can only hope that when you are older, you do not look back on your experiences and realize that you wasted prime years of your life giving your focus, energy, love, and best efforts to a man or a group that was as self-serving and down-right evil as they come, which is what happened to most of us on this forum.
Now, to address some specifics:
Not favorable toward TWI and DocVic, agreed (for the most part)
Not favorable toward the Word in general, mmmm... really? I think you will find a great many practicing Christians here. The only "word" they are unfavorable towards is the bolloxed-up mess that was taught as "the word" in twi.
Yeah... that's polite and respectful. You come to an OPEN forum and demand WE play nice, then YOU make threats. Is this the example set by your leadership? Or is this just the heavy-handed tactic you think will work best with a bunch of cop-outs? Perhaps the acorn really doesn't fall very far from the tree.
First, I am not aware of anyone on this forum "accusing" V2P2 of anything, except of following a format of teaching and doctrine that is eerily close to his grandad's. And that's not an accusation, that's a fact. The rest of the comments are simply speculation; rude and rough at times, I'll grant you, but nothing like an actual accusation.
No, we don't know the up-close-and-personal content of what is being taught at SOWERS, that is true. But after spending years of our lives being told "black is white" and "white is black" most of us now think "if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it sure as heck isn't an elephant"! So, understand, while you say your humble leader is loving and gentle and kind and "knows his stuff" well, we know where a lot of his "stuff" came from so we have a really hard time believing you. --- Let me clarify: we believe you THINK these things and are genuine in your own personal assessment, we just think we have more long-term experience and understanding of the whole picture than you do, so it's hard to put much faith in what you are saying.
Well, this may indeed be the whole measure of the man. But many of us could have said (and DID say) the same of DocVic only to later discover how misled we were and how two-faced he was and how much damage he was doing to our brothers and sisters in Christ behind the scenes.
I can only hope you are correct in your assessment of Vic the grandson. But many of us here have to ask: if he is such a Godly man, why the heck is he imitating methods and programs set up by his very unGodly grandfather?
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rascal
No thanks, I don`t feel I need to drink in order to post.
Please feel free to put my posts on your handy dandy little ignore button and then you won`t be further irritated by my sobriety, or disagreeable point of view. They are mine, I am not constrained to post only in the manner in which rr approves and appreciates. :)
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RumRunner
Wow - you are one bitter one eh? Jokes? Humor? All escape you unless you are the center of... oh never mind... I confess you are so much fun. I would never want to constrain you - so much fun just reading your posts - makes my early morning hours more interesting than the news - you still afraid of anthrax? Geezuz go to USAAMRID and get some facts. BTW my daughter wears a class 5 containment suit and has less paranoia than you by a long shot. Go fly to Nicaragua for a nice tropical visit.
In fact you most certainly do not need my approval to post your thoughts I just find them entertaining
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rascal
Dooj How can anyone hear the *responsible adults* if what one sees lines up with the worst that he has been told about the copped out possibly devil possessed disgruntled former followers of twi?
Shoot, I had responsible adults trying to help me 30 years ago...I couldn`t hear what they had to say because when they said it, though time later proved them to be right, they were attacking a group and people that I loved.
It was the people who were able to share things with me in a non confrontational way that planted seeds that later germinated into the niggling doubts that eventually opened the doors to my departure.
I also think that as responsible adults, it is possible to have the capacity for kindness, the maturity to see past the controversy and the capability to present our points in a manner that someone can receive, rather than just getting upset and lambasting someone for their choices.
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Ham
I hardly say never.. but I think it applies here.. we will NEVER see anyone in "authority" in that organization publically answer questions, in an uncontrolled setting..
I think they have cut every last thread holding themselves to any kind of accountability, to anyone. Same as the parent organization.
There is no debate. Period. It's looks like a paramilitary organization..and that's the impression they are ALLOWING me to have.
they appear to use the same tactics.. send out "inductees" to do their dirty work.
And sit back as lazy, overweight, "lords".. figuring how to move the pawns around..
I think that is a calm, reasonable, logical perception..
no, I don't think we will EVER see anyone give any real answers..
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doojable
Rascal - let's look at this for a moment...
A lot of questions have been posed - which S-'09 asked for.
Some folks swatted him for asking for respect while he gave none out, Granted, Sower explained that and apologized. But ya' gotta admit that's one heck of a way to enter a crowd - and not a good way. I'll give him lack of wisdom because of his youth. But he did apologize - something I'm still deciding came from him or his leaders.
And... now that I think of it... his first post said he'd answer questions... then eventually he posted that he was working 60-70 hours a week. What? He didn't know that he'd be busy when he first made the invitation? I'm thinking that something doesn't smell quite right with this thread...
As to how folks are responding...
You've posted that you take karate. Think about this for a second, if you will. If you were in a sparring match with a young buck, would you soft touch him or her? The way I see it, S-'09 was asking to spar in his first post.
I'd like to see him answer some or all of the questions on this thread. More importantly, I'd like to see the thinking process behind the answers. I just happen to think that the point of this thread was never intended to inform us. I have no delusions that S-'09 will be "rescued" from his cult.
He didn't come here to find out more - that's our gig. I'm not of a mind to project my intentions onto this young man. He didn't come here as some lost soul looking for answers. He came here with the intent of telling us how it is - and even that hasn't panned out too well.
Now - for a page or two or even three - we're waiting. I'm thinking that if he doesn't answer soon, that the point was to see what fur could fly around here among us.
I'm going to sit back and wait. I'm still skeptical as whether or not answers are really forthcoming.
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rascal
Dooj, as a karate student, We are trained to exert just enough force to protect ones self, whether it be a young buck in class, a competition, or indeed in a real life self defense situation. No more. In a competition unnecessary force is penalized by point loss, in real life, legally prosecutable.
As I improve, my ability to disarm an opponent and render them unable to cause harm without doing damage is a mark of the level of my competence. So yeah, I would attempt to treat the youngster with a soft touch knowing that education, experience and maturity has made it important for me to show restraint instead of *taking him out* even when he acts as if he deserves it.
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doojable
Okay. Then I stand corrected.
I was thinking about something I read a long time ago. An actress was taking lessons from Chuck Norris (don't laugh!) and she insisted that he spar with her in an alley while she was in heels. Her thinking was that she'd never really need to defend herself while she was in a ghee and barefooted. She wanted him to all out fight with her - so that she could learn how to really defend herself in a real fight.
My ignorance of the art shows...
I still think a lot of bait has been thrown out on this thread...
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rascal
No laughing here, I admire Chuck Norris and your point is absolutely valid. Now I understand a little better what you were talking about. Thanks for clarifying :)
Way WAY off topic:
My very favorite CN story is where he was teaching Steve Mqueen privately, and it was decided that attending a yoga class would help loosen tight muscles. The two macho men were required to don leotards, Chuck using his superior speed and agility to snatch the blue ones leaving Steve the pink....Him telling Steve to suck it up as they left the dressing room in their finery only to have Chuck quickly step back into the dressing room slam and lock the door leaving Steve out in the middle of the studio with all of the tittering ladies dressed in pink leotards :)
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Tzaia
Maybe he was. I'm still not sure that sparring with anyone does anything other than teach someone how to defend and attack. The problem with taking this tactic is that the physical response drains the blood from the head, which causes people to start reacting and stop thinking. I don't believe he is a threat in the real sense of the word, so the response is unwarranted (IMO) and unproductive (again, IMO).
He made a typical "opinionated newbie" entrance into this forum. Even though it's a universal experience in every forum I've frequented since 1992, and most of us regulars here should be aware that it happens, there's always a few who pounce on the person (with a highly developed sense of justification for doing so).
Is it necessary?
If he leaves and never comes back, we (collectively) can rationalize those reasons all we want (and are free to do so), but there will be the element that we (collectively) wouldn't meet him where he is. In my world, that's not something to be proud of.
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JeffSjo
Hey Rascal,
Last night I could only be on line for a couple of minutes so I had no time to respond. I LAUGHED AND LAUGHED ABOUT THE VERY FACT THAT YOU WERE STEPPING IN TO HELP ME DEAL WITH SOWERS 09. I certainly know that you know how to swing the shovel around when you feel it necessary, as a matter of fact, when I first got here one of the things that I liked the very most here at the Greasespot was how you fought it out with certain bullies.
And yesterday I really feel that it might have been nice to have a friend near. Yes I was a little upset, so I'll take you words as such, a calming influence.
HERE GOES THE LAUGHTER AGAIN.
I mean that sincerely Rascal, with all due respect!
ROFL
I remember once when we were confronting somebodie's ministerial bullying and I suggested to you that we save our point for another time and another thread. And then I could only watch as you just jumped right in and kept swinging away with your little old shovel....sigh....ROFL.
So while I think you are right that it is time for me to chill out now I still find great enjoyment in this particular exchange.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
But oh yeah, on a little more serious note.
If my own son grew up and actually learned that it was o.k. to bully people like S.O.W.E.R.S.09 did in that first post I'd let him have it too, and I wouldn't have held back as much as I did with Sower either.
This young lad needs some immediate edumacation IMO and in a case like this I feel it is perfectly acceptable for us older gents to make it perfectly clear to these kids what they are doing. Especially when a young guy is bullying vulnerable folks. I think it is perfectly legitimate for these dumbazz kids to be told their error in a manner they have already shown a willingness to utilize. And when the issue is bullying, well, whether straight up or only implied I am usually willing to think that their cure won't come from any book lernin, if you get my drift.
But as to the overall topic of the thread, I feel that many of you actually know the people involved and have been keeping up with these things for some time. So I'll gladly leave you to it. Heck, I'm interested in where this thread goes too.
BUT I MEANT EACH AND EVERY WORD TOO!
(added in editing)
Dear rascal,
I hope that you know that even though I know you don't need my help with anything else going on here on this thread, I'M A WILLIN if'n you want.
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doojable
Let's see - the thread is now nearly 100 posts long... and only ten or so have been from from the thread starter.
Most of the posts (initially) were asking questions and telling the young lad to be polite, along with some welcomes. The last page or two has been all of us discussing "stuff." Now we've stopped talking to him, and about him, and we're talking to each other about ourselves.
I still think there was a level of dishonesty in how the thread was started. Time will tell.
I'll read it again - but I just don't view this thread as being threatening to someone. If he's as tough as he claims, then he'll take it as well as he dished it out.
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rascal
Alright Jeff, sorry that I said anything at all.
Well said Tzaia.
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RumRunner
Karate = too many bad movies, too many self-indulgent braggart students
TaeKwonDo = for serious students.
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JeffSjo
Rascal, I know we can all evolve and hopefully change for the better, heck, it's part of life, so that's o.k.
You sound sore at me, and when I saw the "-2" on your initial response to me I did my best and now it reads "-1".
So that's how I thought about your post.
I was serious about jumping in with you too! I may be wrong but I can make an edumacated guess on where the "-2" came from.
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cheranne
So where is he? Probably v2p2 is yelling about this or maybe we all will hear from little victor and just
what he is selling out there in ole miss. That all I want to know what is the snake oil(if any?)
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way2much
And what makes you folks think this guy is who he says he is? I think its somebody pulling yalls chain.... Maybe an old poster who has 'become new'?
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