What was God trying to say?

[Ham]

One thing I love to reject is the jaded and decadent and dumb ideas promoted by most mass media and academics in the US.

Most of the people in this poll might disagree with you..

[RumRunner]

That all sounds so nice, so liberating. But it is kind of anarchist and rebellious, and leads nowhere. Sounds so "Cheech and Chong." Whoa dude, pass that bong and let's see what God has to say...

I'm kinda thinking that since, to use Garth's approximate wording, we've been so nicely programmed to turn our brains off by the media, by religion, by the variously perverted forms of christianity, by mind-numbingly repetitive and politically correct spew taught in K-12 that perhaps...just perhaps...

a little anarchy and rebellion might be just what we need.

[waysider]

The concept behind this thread was inspired by this piece I recently heard on National Public Radio.

(Writer's Almanac)

***********************************************************

The Effort by Billy Collins

From Writer’s Almanac June 29, 2009.

The Effort by Billy Collins

Would anyone care to join me

in flicking a few pebbles in the direction

of teachers who are fond of asking the question:

“What is the poet trying to say?”

as if Thomas Hardy and Emily Dickinson

had struggled but ultimately failed in their efforts—

inarticulate wretches that they were,

biting their pens and staring out the window for a clue.

Yes, it seems that Whitman, Amy Lowell

and the rest could only try and fail

but we in Mrs. Parker’s third-period English class

here at Springfield High will succeed

with the help of these study questions

in saying what the poor poet could not,

and we will get all this done before

that orgy of egg salad and tuna fish known as lunch.

Tonight, however, I am the one trying

to say what it is this absence means,

the two of us sleeping and waking under different roofs.

The image of this vase of cut flowers,

not from our garden, is no help.

And the same goes for the single plate,

the solitary lamp, and the weather that presses its face

against these new windows–the drizzle and the

morning frost.

So I will leave it up to Mrs. Parker,

who is tapping a piece of chalk against the blackboard,

and her students—a few with their hands up,

others slouching with their caps on backwards—

to figure out what it is I am trying to say

about this place where I find myself

and to do it before the noon bell rings

and that whirlwind of meatloaf is unleashed.

“The Effort” by Billy Collins, from Ballistics. © Random House, 2008. Taken from Writer’s Almanac June 29, 2009.

We seem to have veered a bit off course.

Here is the thread "starter" upon which this thread is based.

To me, at least, it's perfectly clear what this writer was saying.

(The analogy is there for the taking.)

Edited July 5, 2009 by waysider

[Oakspear]

That all sounds so nice, so liberating. But it is kind of anarchist and rebellious, and leads nowhere. Sounds so "Cheech and Chong." Whoa dude, pass that bong and let's see what God has to say...

Well, if God was big enough to talk to Moses and Paul and Jesus, why wouldn't he be big enough to talk to you? Do you really want to limit God to what people 2000+ years ago said about him?

Sorry to hear that looking for a direct experience of the divine leads nowhere for you.

We seem to have veered a bit off course.

Of course we have...we're grease spots :blush:

[caribousam]

Well, if God was big enough to talk to Moses and Paul and Jesus, why wouldn't he be big enough to talk to you? Do you really want to limit God to what people 2000+ years ago said about him?

Sorry to hear that looking for a direct experience of the divine leads nowhere for you.

Of course we have...we're grease spots :blush:

I definitely believe in the direct experience of God. I have experienced it a bunch of times.I don't believe in overly liberal theology where anything and everything is ok.

[Ham]

I don't believe in overly liberal theology where anything and everything is ok.

Do you have an example of an overly liberal theologian who proclaims anything and everything is "ok"?

[waysider]

I definitely believe in the direct experience of God. I have experienced it a bunch of times.I don't believe in overly liberal theology where anything and everything is ok.

This isn't really about "liberal theology".

It's about the arrogance of our thinking that we had to explain what God meant because of His inability to do so Himself.

[RumRunner]

This isn't really about "liberal theology".

It's about the arrogance of our thinking that we had to explain what God meant because of His inability to do so Himself.

Heck I don't even know what liberal theology is but I sure have to agree with the comment about arrogant thinking.

[Ham]

I think "Liberal Theology" is another name for "them".

You know, the ones in the other camp. Over there.. *them*. Not *us*.

[waysider]

Liberal Theology

"The intentional adaptation of Christianity to modernity using insights from the new social sciences to redefine religious authority."

Source: http://demo.lutherproductions.com/historytutor/basic/modern/stories/liberal-theology.htm

*****************************************************

Sounds like fodder for a separate thread.

[Ham]

aye, aye, skipper..

[waysider]

"Psychology = BAD!

Bible = GOOD!"

---------VP Wierwille (PFAL, 1967)----------------

[geisha779]

Jesus spoke in parables. . . . God's nature is paradoxical. . . . the bible says that God may be hidden. . . it also says the Holy Spirit reveals truth. . . it says no man can know God unless he knows the Son. . . .I am not so sure that without being drawn. . . one person has any better understanding than the next.

The Pharisees of the day were not exactly religious slackers. . . they tithed mint, anise, and cumin. :) Yet, they were somewhat clueless as to what was right in front of them.

I don't think the arrogance lies in trying to explain the bible. Teachers teach and the bible proclaims itself to be more than a book of poetry. It calls for teachers.

I think it was in TWI's intellectual pursuit of the bible without genuine repentance and conversion. Again, the bible actually addresses this.

Scripture is not always crystal clear. . . .and ironically we were fond of saying. . . . "God says what He means and means what He says."

[doojable]

Jesus spoke in parables. . . . God's nature is paradoxical. . . . the bible says that God may be hidden. . . it also says the Holy Spirit reveals truth. . . it says no man can know God unless he knows the Son. . . .I am not so sure that without being drawn. . . one person has any better understanding than the next.

The Pharisees of the day were not exactly religious slackers. . . they tithed mint, anise, and cumin. :) Yet, they were somewhat clueless as to what was right in front of them.

I don't think the arrogance lies in trying to explain the bible. Teachers teach and the bible proclaims itself to be more than a book of poetry. It calls for teachers.

Good points there, geisha.

If you're of a mind to think that any biblical truth has survived over the centuries, given the many different translations and various manuscripts, then you have to consider that not even Jesus himself "taught" the scriptures - at least not in the manner that they are taught in churches today. I don't know of even one place where it is recorded that he interpreted the scriptures. As a matter of fact, I think some would have said that he was even more obtuse than the scriptures themselves.

Heck, even as a young boy, his questions marveled the teachers in the synagogue, not his body of knowledge. I think the ability to question and properly frame a question has more value than just passive listening and regurgitating. (Now I'm regretting all those stupid-azz retemories...!)

This all leads me to think that the model of the church is all wrong and has been for centuries. Religious leaders keep trying to explain and interpret - then they call that teaching. It's a constant battle for who has the better teachings and who can claim "big dog" status by saying they have more knowledge than the guy down the block and around the many corners.

Perhaps what we all should be doing is learning how to ask the right questions - not running to different people looking for the quick fix of an answer.

Then again - learning to ask the right questions is a skill that comes in handy in all of life.

Edited July 6, 2009 by doojable

[pond]

Recently I saw this in the off shoots of the way big time.

concerning whether or not Salvation is conditional or not.

Twi taught that once saved always saved romans 10,9 10 covered it for life.

done deal no matter how much sin you did.

Vince F and his group feels quite differently about this ideal and if you research his websight particulary his radio show with sean F you will hear they feel it has to do with works as well.

I lost it when I heard John Lynn go crazy nuts and refuted the idea in his teaching to the youth, He said "he has good friends in NY who are wrong"..... I know he is speaking about Vince and his group and he sounded so sad and crazy over the doctrinal differences. he has a real need to be right in this teaching. .

it was one of those ....ing contests men do when they have to much to drink .

I always thought it was not about doctrine and right and wrong and a competition between the off shoots you know love and all that.. not so, do the research and you will see some heavy serious lines drawn even from folks from the same twi.

I felt so sad after this learning really i did all it said to me is how far removed both groups are from loving one another as Jesus says to do first and fore most.

[Oakspear]

In my view what Jesus taught and what many preachers do when they teach is not "explaining what God really meant, but expounding on the application of what was written. What Wierwille and his ilk did was take the position that you needed a secrtet decoder ring to divine God's true meaning.

[waysider]

What Wierwille and his ilk did was take the position that you needed a secrtet decoder ring to divine God's true meaning.

Like this one?

[Ham]

In this case, you take the decoder ring, the secret message.. "take more pfal"..

[waysider]

In this case, you take the decoder ring, the secret message.. "take more pfal"..

Ahhh, yes.

The secret message.

It HAD to be in The Bible, of course, because that's the ONLY way God had to "talk" to us.

Would have been funny to have been in the same room with Shakespeare as he composed The Sonnets.

"Hey, Willy! Cool it with the sonnets. You're a playwright, fer cryin' out loud!"

[T-Bone]

In my view what Jesus taught and what many preachers do when they teach is not "explaining what God really meant, but expounding on the application of what was written. What Wierwille and his ilk did was take the position that you needed a secrtet decoder ring to divine God's true meaning.

Like this one?

In this case, you take the decoder ring, the secret message.. "take more pfal"..

[geisha779]

In my view what Jesus taught and what many preachers do when they teach is not "explaining what God really meant, but expounding on the application of what was written. What Wierwille and his ilk did was take the position that you needed a secrtet decoder ring to divine God's true meaning.

Pretty much sums it up. . . . and because we had the special "keys" to the kingdom. . . we had all the special secret knowledge that God had hidden from almost every other Christian(His children who actually obeyed Him) for centuries.

Never mind all that holy life. . . or required to love stuff. . . we had the keys to interpreting the bible. We knew what He really meant. . . . wink. . . . wink. . .

[geisha779]

Perhaps what we all should be doing is learning how to ask the right questions - not running to different people looking for the quick fix of an answer.

Perfect. . . . I couldn't agree more.