Even though I did resist the urge to pull out my concordance on this one, it seems clear to me that your feedback is worth considering based on content alone.
So I'm just going to do a little retyping and throw it out again using "discern" instead of "judge".
It seems to me like almost everything depends on the person doing the speaking.
1Co 2:15
But he that is spiritual "DISCERNS" all things, yet he himself is "DISCERNED" of no man.
Paul said this, and he was hounded and even had entire cities poisoned as pertaing to whether or not he was up to good or not. So he took more than a little heat for speaking the things that were on his heart. Yet he was not an evil doer.
Wierwille said this, and I suppose it is still true statement, but it just sounds soooo different when it comes from a man who had sociopathic and narcissistic characteristics, not to mention delusions of grandure..... oh yeah, and he abused many women and ruined many lives.
So whether it is a good man or a bad man who thinks he won't be "DISCERNED" by anyone it seems to me that we are still free to form our own opinions about any man. And the ones who do evil may seem to win, but personally, I think eventually they will have to answer for their actions.
(added in editing)
A clarification:
Paul was exceedingly honest about the evil things he did before he wrote to the Corinthians.
Please, feel free to speak in "secular", but do not be offended if I need to ask for clarification.
However the stuff that Paul was speaking pans out in truth some things seem clear.
This is not a man or woman whining about how the spouse "doesn't get them." Yeah, I suppose that learning to communicate will always be work but this phrase "judged (or discerned)of no man" is not synonymous with "she doesn't get me."
And it certainly isn't synonymous with some deceptive, perverted, so-called minister who taught his own freakin kids lies in order for them to be unable to see him for what he really was.
Now no matter what we think of scripture, if we take what is written we can consider.
Jesus Christ grew up in a small town and until his ministry started he did not aquire any particular reputation to speak of that we know. The feedback that he recieved from the religous leaders had to do with his family and not him. So if we believe the record then the Messiah grew up and nobody had any freekin idea who he was. And if any do not believe, well..... Jesus ended up being a historically noteworthy person anyway, huh?
And what is recorded is that people had all kinds of opinions of him even during his ministry, but when his closest disciples said they believed him to be the son of God he told them they were blessed, because God had showed it to them. So for the most part, hardly anybody knew just what the heck was going on during his ministry.
Now it seems evident to me that if Jesus had deliberately abused authority like Wierwille did that the Pharisees and Saducees would have not had a hard time seeing him for what he really was at all. After all, there seems to be no controversy among anybody about what Barabas was.
Now it seems evident to me that if Jesus had deliberately abused authority like Wierwille did that the Pharisees and Saducees would have not had a hard time seeing him for what he really was at all. After all, there seems to be no controversy among anybody about what Barabas was.
I'm not so sure about that, Jeff.
There are people who still, after all these years, have a hard time accepting Wierwille for who and what he really was.
It seems to me like almost everything depends on the person doing the speaking.
1Co 2:15
But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Paul said this, and he was hounded and even had entire cities poisoned as pertaing to whether or not he was up to good or not. So he took more than a little heat for speaking the things that were on his heart. Yet he was not an evil doer.
Wierwille said this, and I suppose it is still true statement, but it just sounds soooo different when it comes from a man who had sociopathic and narcissistic characteristics, not to mention delusions of grandure..... oh yeah, and he abused many women and ruined many lives.
So whether it is a good man or a bad man who thinks he won't be judged by anyone it seems to me that we are still free to form our own opinions about any man. And the ones who do evil may seem to win, but personally, I think eventually they will have to answer for their actions.
(added in editing)
A clarification:
Paul was exceedingly honest about the evil things he did before he wrote to the Corinthians.
Please, feel free to speak in "secular", but do not be offended if I need to ask for clarification.
This is just my 2 cents – could be wrong but - the context is talking about spiritual truths. And the way I understand it is that the man without the Spirit cannot appraise spiritual truths. I don't think it's talking about whether or not one person could judge another.
I Corinthians 2:11-16 NIV
11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
It seems reasonable from this passage - that a non-Christian would have a hard time understanding or accepting the elements of the faith [like the resurrection of Christ, justification, prayer, Christ's sacrifice for our sins, etc.]. However – I don't think there's anything implied in these verses to suggest a Christian's behavior is beyond the scope of judgment by others.
I think of verses that speak of knowing a tree by its fruit, living a life above reproach, glorifying God by our good works. In that regard – I think if one was living a hypocritical life – it would be obvious to some [perhaps even a non-Christian] that the person's lifestyle is inconsistent with the tenets of their faith – and thus a legitimate "judgment call". Take a look at I Corinthians 5, where Paul talks about the reports of sexual immorality going on in their local church – it was so bad, that they out did the pagans! Some heavy stuff going on there – so bad perhaps even the pagans were judging it wrong by their own standards [some reports may have filtered down from them].
Read the rest of it too – Paul called for some drastic action – boot the offender out of the church – because a little yeast will work it's way through the whole batch of dough. And on a related note - sorry to say it but it seems like there's a typical Christian mindset that can settle in sometimes where you feel it's your Christian duty to shut down your powers of observation & sense of honesty and look past someone's major inconsistencies with the faith – often accompanied by shouts of "you're looking at the flesh and not the spirit" or other jive that can cloud one's reason.
~~
vp being the sociopath that he was – gave little regard to the consequences of his actions – perhaps justifying himself with delusions of being the man-o-gawd for the world, being spiritually mature, so renewed his mind that something isn't sin to him, yada yada yada.
Tell ya what, just try explaining to someone who has never been in TWI some of the stuff vp says in Christian Family & Sex class - or mention how he played his favorite porn video accompanied with his "spiritually liberating" comments to folks in the Family Corps - uhm - you heard right, FAMILY Corps!
But, hopefully not at the risk of changing direction here too much, I don't really see the spiritual man understanding much more than the natural man about spiritual things. They certainly believe more, and where understanding lacks, faith covers. In my experience faith covers more "things of the spirit" than understanding does. Of course, YMMV : )
It would seem if so many people understood the "things of the spirit" there would be much more agreed upon in spiritual matters. Perhaps soul and spirit are a little more muddy and are not so easily "divided assunder."
After reading the feedback I got to thinking about these verses as they were applied in TWI some more. But speaking of fooling people.....
When TWI leadership said that they were spiritual in regards to good behavior it seems obvious to me that all of us bought into that to some extent. Most all of us were some part of TWI after all.
And while I think it can be a good thing in some circumstances to defer to another's judgement lest any functioning enterprise descends into anarchy, it seems very obvious now that TWI leadership's attitude of leadership was a con job. I am fairly certain that any con-man knows that if they act like they are an authority on any given topic, that some people will believe they are an authority.
And while I would expect any company to have some percentage of ambitious fakers and liars ascend into leadership positions I feel that a ministry whose founder was such a nasty, viscious, and cruel man with a very convincing veneer of fatherly kindness in public will evntually descend into abuses that would tend to make the most ruthless of CEO's ashamed. WAIT, THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED IN TWI, WASN'T IT!
If this particular sentiment is somewhat new to any reader as it was to me not to long ago I encourage you to take some time and consider the common reports of TWI cruelty here at the Greasespot.
But the biggest single issue for me (right at this moment anyway) seems to be that for many who hold onto TWI planted beliefs is that they are incapable of seeing the truth of what Wierwille's behavior made him. And while the sentiment of holding any loved one's memory in honor is a good sentiment, Wierwille's behavior IMO makes him truly underserving of such honor, and the same goes for LCM and Geer too! Alond with the abundance of still functioning TWI exleadership and their lame excuses and continued lying about the abuses they partook in.
But the MOST IRKSOME single component for me in this whole picture is how former and current leadership blinds people to the truth by claiming to be spiritual people who are above our collective and individual judgements by twisting scriptures such as the one T-bone quoted to fool people into they are spiritual and/or leaders that have anyone's intrests on their heart except their own status and income.
And for the sincere who still think they are correct in treating Wierwille, etc. with honor, YOU ARE UNFORTUNATE TWI SUCKERS.
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brideofjc
I think the judging that Paul is referring to is really using discernment.
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JeffSjo
Dear Bride,
Even though I did resist the urge to pull out my concordance on this one, it seems clear to me that your feedback is worth considering based on content alone.
So I'm just going to do a little retyping and throw it out again using "discern" instead of "judge".
HHHMMM
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JeffSjo
However the stuff that Paul was speaking pans out in truth some things seem clear.
This is not a man or woman whining about how the spouse "doesn't get them." Yeah, I suppose that learning to communicate will always be work but this phrase "judged (or discerned)of no man" is not synonymous with "she doesn't get me."
And it certainly isn't synonymous with some deceptive, perverted, so-called minister who taught his own freakin kids lies in order for them to be unable to see him for what he really was.
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JeffSjo
Now no matter what we think of scripture, if we take what is written we can consider.
Jesus Christ grew up in a small town and until his ministry started he did not aquire any particular reputation to speak of that we know. The feedback that he recieved from the religous leaders had to do with his family and not him. So if we believe the record then the Messiah grew up and nobody had any freekin idea who he was. And if any do not believe, well..... Jesus ended up being a historically noteworthy person anyway, huh?
And what is recorded is that people had all kinds of opinions of him even during his ministry, but when his closest disciples said they believed him to be the son of God he told them they were blessed, because God had showed it to them. So for the most part, hardly anybody knew just what the heck was going on during his ministry.
Now it seems evident to me that if Jesus had deliberately abused authority like Wierwille did that the Pharisees and Saducees would have not had a hard time seeing him for what he really was at all. After all, there seems to be no controversy among anybody about what Barabas was.
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waysider
I'm not so sure about that, Jeff.
There are people who still, after all these years, have a hard time accepting Wierwille for who and what he really was.
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T-Bone
This is just my 2 cents – could be wrong but - the context is talking about spiritual truths. And the way I understand it is that the man without the Spirit cannot appraise spiritual truths. I don't think it's talking about whether or not one person could judge another.
I Corinthians 2:11-16 NIV
11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
It seems reasonable from this passage - that a non-Christian would have a hard time understanding or accepting the elements of the faith [like the resurrection of Christ, justification, prayer, Christ's sacrifice for our sins, etc.]. However – I don't think there's anything implied in these verses to suggest a Christian's behavior is beyond the scope of judgment by others.
I think of verses that speak of knowing a tree by its fruit, living a life above reproach, glorifying God by our good works. In that regard – I think if one was living a hypocritical life – it would be obvious to some [perhaps even a non-Christian] that the person's lifestyle is inconsistent with the tenets of their faith – and thus a legitimate "judgment call". Take a look at I Corinthians 5, where Paul talks about the reports of sexual immorality going on in their local church – it was so bad, that they out did the pagans! Some heavy stuff going on there – so bad perhaps even the pagans were judging it wrong by their own standards [some reports may have filtered down from them].
Read the rest of it too – Paul called for some drastic action – boot the offender out of the church – because a little yeast will work it's way through the whole batch of dough. And on a related note - sorry to say it but it seems like there's a typical Christian mindset that can settle in sometimes where you feel it's your Christian duty to shut down your powers of observation & sense of honesty and look past someone's major inconsistencies with the faith – often accompanied by shouts of "you're looking at the flesh and not the spirit" or other jive that can cloud one's reason.
~~
vp being the sociopath that he was – gave little regard to the consequences of his actions – perhaps justifying himself with delusions of being the man-o-gawd for the world, being spiritually mature, so renewed his mind that something isn't sin to him, yada yada yada.
Tell ya what, just try explaining to someone who has never been in TWI some of the stuff vp says in Christian Family & Sex class - or mention how he played his favorite porn video accompanied with his "spiritually liberating" comments to folks in the Family Corps - uhm - you heard right, FAMILY Corps!
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lindyhopper
I think you have it there T-Bone.
But, hopefully not at the risk of changing direction here too much, I don't really see the spiritual man understanding much more than the natural man about spiritual things. They certainly believe more, and where understanding lacks, faith covers. In my experience faith covers more "things of the spirit" than understanding does. Of course, YMMV : )
It would seem if so many people understood the "things of the spirit" there would be much more agreed upon in spiritual matters. Perhaps soul and spirit are a little more muddy and are not so easily "divided assunder."
We are all judged by all and we all judge.
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JeffSjo
Thank you both for the feedback!
After reading the feedback I got to thinking about these verses as they were applied in TWI some more. But speaking of fooling people.....
When TWI leadership said that they were spiritual in regards to good behavior it seems obvious to me that all of us bought into that to some extent. Most all of us were some part of TWI after all.
And while I think it can be a good thing in some circumstances to defer to another's judgement lest any functioning enterprise descends into anarchy, it seems very obvious now that TWI leadership's attitude of leadership was a con job. I am fairly certain that any con-man knows that if they act like they are an authority on any given topic, that some people will believe they are an authority.
And while I would expect any company to have some percentage of ambitious fakers and liars ascend into leadership positions I feel that a ministry whose founder was such a nasty, viscious, and cruel man with a very convincing veneer of fatherly kindness in public will evntually descend into abuses that would tend to make the most ruthless of CEO's ashamed. WAIT, THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED IN TWI, WASN'T IT!
If this particular sentiment is somewhat new to any reader as it was to me not to long ago I encourage you to take some time and consider the common reports of TWI cruelty here at the Greasespot.
But the biggest single issue for me (right at this moment anyway) seems to be that for many who hold onto TWI planted beliefs is that they are incapable of seeing the truth of what Wierwille's behavior made him. And while the sentiment of holding any loved one's memory in honor is a good sentiment, Wierwille's behavior IMO makes him truly underserving of such honor, and the same goes for LCM and Geer too! Alond with the abundance of still functioning TWI exleadership and their lame excuses and continued lying about the abuses they partook in.
But the MOST IRKSOME single component for me in this whole picture is how former and current leadership blinds people to the truth by claiming to be spiritual people who are above our collective and individual judgements by twisting scriptures such as the one T-bone quoted to fool people into they are spiritual and/or leaders that have anyone's intrests on their heart except their own status and income.
And for the sincere who still think they are correct in treating Wierwille, etc. with honor, YOU ARE UNFORTUNATE TWI SUCKERS.
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