Bolshee (if I may call you that), You are in a very unique position...You still get to plan your grand finale. The way to really stick it to them as you walk out the door...and eventually it WILL happen...might as well plan an appropriate departure...any thoughts?
How about Bolshevik walks out of the BRC and as he marches down Cyclops Road there is a double line of GSC'ers applauding on both sides of the road. I volunteer to toss him the first beer of freedom. Maybe a little Ritchie Havens playing in the background. As Bolshevik gets into my pickup truck he turns and tosses his last words at TWI in the spirit of Edward R. Morrow...Good night and good luck...
It is very sad to watch our peers die, but in 1974, when I took the class, the average age of the ministry was 19. We were invincible, young, dumb, and full of whatever. Pretty easy to lead around.
After watching a few friends die, it was in 1986 when our new limb leader explained that one of our wow vets died, because he was out of fellowship and deserved to.
No more waferland for me. I got in his face big time and it was GOOD BYE. My friend was fishing in ID and someone was target shooting in the area. The bullet was deflected by a tree and hit my friend between the eyes. He deserved to die?
The list of those who have passed, (on this website), shocked me when I first saw it a couple of months ago, but, now that I'm 54 and have lost good friends, school mates, my Dad, Uncles, Aunts, and three people that I lived with, I believe the last enemy to be destoyed is death. I also hope for the return of Jesus Christ.
Those are two things that are pretty clear in the Bible, you don't even need an interpreter. I certainly don't claim to understand life and death, but, it was defintely easier for me to pull the plug on on my Dad, hoping for the return. I'm sure you all have had similar experiences.
As did most Jews coming out of German concentration camps. Oh, but TWI says those didn't exist ;)
We were told the number 6 million was exaggerated but not that camps didn't exist. Maybe this is new wine in an old something. Or was that old whining about empty bottles...? Anyhoo, point taken.
Unfortunately, I wonder how many will grow old even outside of TWI. Many were hurt badly, lost family, careers, etc. Those things can cut one's life short.
We were told the number 6 million was exaggerated but not that camps didn't exist. Maybe this is new wine in an old something. Or was that old whining about empty bottles...? Anyhoo, point taken.
Unfortunately, I wonder how many will grow old even outside of TWI. Many were hurt badly, lost family, careers, etc. Those things can cut one's life short.
JT
Close but... when I was in rez we were told to read these three books, The Myth of the Six Million (which would agree with what you posted - a delta in the numbers), The Hoax of the Twentieth Century - which did indeed try to dispel the whole thing, and The Thirteenth Tribe - which had nothing to do with WWII - just tried to prove that there are no more Jewish people left
How very sad this all is. I did not know their family very well, but I could tell that they really loved each other and seemed very close and happy. I find it interesting that it seems like the Panarello's stayed on good terms with the way. Both ministries are mentioned in the obituary and they are going to help raise the Grandchildren from what his letter said. I'm glad Krystine was not pressured into cutting her parents out of her life. It's nice they can be there for each other. I feel sad for them all that they have had this loss.
The Way promised to deliver a pie-in-the-sky utopia (via what they claimed was "God's Word") that defies the reality of how real life works. Maybe we were all just too young and naive to see it (The Way) for what it really was, a money making scheme for VPW & Co.
The Way promised to deliver a pie-in-the-sky utopia (via what they claimed was "God's Word") that defies the reality of how real life works. Maybe we were all just too young and naive to see it (The Way) for what it really was, a money making scheme for VPW & Co.
I've been thinking about what Shellon wrote. I'm so sorry you and your kids and family were treated like that. Loss is hard enough in itself. But to have the people closest to you blame you is unthinkable.
A therapist once told a friend of mine that she was having irrational thinking, because she was feeling guilty about her husband's death. He had been ill for a long time before he died. After he died she kept going back and forth between thinking maybe she didn't do enough to find a cure or maybe she let him suffer too long while she hoped for a cure. The therapist told her grief brings on irrational thinking. There was nothing she could have done to change the outcome. After she shared this with me, she asked me to help her when she started experiencing irrational thinking again.
She would sometimes call in the middle of the night, and all I had to do was remind her how much she loved her husband, how much he loved her and he knew she did everything she could for him. That's all it took for her to get peaceful again. When she would go through this, it was as if she was being tortured. It's now four years later and she is doing very well. She is happy and healthy and even dating. But it took over two years for her to get healed. I honestly believe that if someone had tried to blame her or play that kind of a mind game on her, she would not have survived it.
The therapist was right. It's irrational to blame ourselves or someone else for a death. It's part of the cycle of life. God can heal and deliver, I would never want to give up on believing that. I'll believe that until someone takes their last breath. But when it's done, we just have to help each other heal and love each other. No need for a "spiritual" autopsy.
Shellon, you seem like a very strong person to have survived all that and to be in contact with the relatives. You probably understand how to really help people the way they truly need to be helped.
I think the reason leaders blamed people so much is because they were terrible at their jobs. They had no clue how to minister to people. They liked to tout themselves as being a MOG with us knowing the truth greater than it had ever been known before blah blah blah. They should have known better than anyone how to minister. But for all their ego and holier than thou lectures, the were incompetant and inept. That's why they blamed.
Thank you and welcome to the cafe, someone will probably treat you to a cup of something soon. I would but I have no talent in graphic whatchacallit stuff. I'll just dance in hopes that your arrival here is a good thing for you.
I appreciated your kind words of encouragement, comfort and another's experience. Thank you, to you, for being a good friend to the woman you mentioned, it might never be known to you how much you provided.
When Moynihan and others were so ugly hearted to me and my children and my husband's memory, I understood they were wrong, thankfully. And I certainly never wish that kind of loss on even him, much less such lack of spiritual assistance and only harm and hurt to his heart.
We've come around to a new normal, it's been 12 years since this loss and we're great.
And the poor oversight of us is an additional loss in the lives of some leadership.
Hang out here and continue to share with us as you'd like, I look forward to reading further. :)
Regarding how TWI leadership handled untimely death: when Fred B, who had been our Limb Coordinator before being transferred to Missouri, we were told in our fellowship what a great man o' God Fred had been and how the adversary had been gunning for him because of his great stand for God and the ministry. We were all made to feel guilty that our shortcomings and lack of believing had opened the door for this horrendous attack. On the other hand, at TWI HQ itself, Fred was posthumously ripped to shreds for his lack of believing. Everybody was to blame!
I remember this too. Even his old girlfriend who was married and living in another state was treated weirdly when he died. The whole no deviating from your plan thing caused so much fear, it stopped people from living their lives. It went on for years.
I remember one woman was publicly praised for continuing to work hard even though she was very pregnant. She was held up as a great example. Then this other woman who was pregnant died in child birth. Afterwards she was ripped to shreds for not resting and taking care of herself better. I wondered if she had been influenced by the public praise the first woman had received, because she had always tried so hard to please. Mixed messages for sure.
I remember one woman was publicly praised for continuing to work hard even though she was very pregnant. She was held up as a great example. Then this other woman who was pregnant died in child birth. Afterwards she was ripped to shreds for not resting and taking care of herself better. I wondered if she had been influenced by the public praise the first woman had received, because she had always tried so hard to please. Mixed messages for sure.
This is tragic and heartbreaking. . . it is so horrible. . . shame on those who ripped her to shreds. . . shame on all of them and those who continue to support this group. What kind of people do this? This really makes me sick. I hope her loved ones never heard.
This is tragic and heartbreaking. . . it is so horrible. . . shame on those who ripped her to shreds. . . shame on all of them and those who continue to support this group. What kind of people do this? This really makes me sick. I hope her loved ones never heard.
Sadly, I think they did. Her husband was given a copy of the tape to listen to. I really hope her parents were not sent a copy. It was pretty horrible. She was a very sweet and kind girl. Just trying to please God and everyone. If she really did overwork herself, it was because she misunderstood something and was only trying to do the right thing. She was a very pure hearted young girl.
The kind of people who do these things are the kind of people who have no clue about God and are terrible at representing him. But they present themselves as if they are holy. Been going on for centuries. It's just startling and dissapointing when we realize the organization we were attached to was not immune from this.
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crystalclearblue
I've been thinking about what Shellon wrote. I'm so sorry you and your kids and family were treated like that. Loss is hard enough in itself. But to have the people closest to you blame you is unthi
Tzaia
Dang, I can't believe you are playing with us like this.
RumRunner
Come on Bolshevik - cough up - we need some fresh dirt to dig through around here.
RumRunner
How about Bolshevik walks out of the BRC and as he marches down Cyclops Road there is a double line of GSC'ers applauding on both sides of the road. I volunteer to toss him the first beer of freedom. Maybe a little Ritchie Havens playing in the background. As Bolshevik gets into my pickup truck he turns and tosses his last words at TWI in the spirit of Edward R. Morrow...Good night and good luck...
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Ham
Then again.. rosie,on her death bed.. might summon him and offer him da keys to da kingdom or something..
Stranger things have happened..
and, like the ad at the bottom of the page.. I'd "show sympathy with flowers"..
sometimes Google seems to "walk by the spirit"..
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Bolshevik
uh, I don't live at the gulag anymore. Although I do hope to leave the state in a few years and leave no forwarding address . . he he. . .
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eagle709
Back to the topic "Does anyone grow old"?
It is very sad to watch our peers die, but in 1974, when I took the class, the average age of the ministry was 19. We were invincible, young, dumb, and full of whatever. Pretty easy to lead around.
After watching a few friends die, it was in 1986 when our new limb leader explained that one of our wow vets died, because he was out of fellowship and deserved to.
No more waferland for me. I got in his face big time and it was GOOD BYE. My friend was fishing in ID and someone was target shooting in the area. The bullet was deflected by a tree and hit my friend between the eyes. He deserved to die?
The list of those who have passed, (on this website), shocked me when I first saw it a couple of months ago, but, now that I'm 54 and have lost good friends, school mates, my Dad, Uncles, Aunts, and three people that I lived with, I believe the last enemy to be destoyed is death. I also hope for the return of Jesus Christ.
Those are two things that are pretty clear in the Bible, you don't even need an interpreter. I certainly don't claim to understand life and death, but, it was defintely easier for me to pull the plug on on my Dad, hoping for the return. I'm sure you all have had similar experiences.
Eagle
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Bolshevik
most people in twi look old to me.
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chockfull
As did most Jews coming out of German concentration camps. Oh, but TWI says those didn't exist ;)
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JustThinking
We were told the number 6 million was exaggerated but not that camps didn't exist. Maybe this is new wine in an old something. Or was that old whining about empty bottles...? Anyhoo, point taken.
Unfortunately, I wonder how many will grow old even outside of TWI. Many were hurt badly, lost family, careers, etc. Those things can cut one's life short.
JT
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RumRunner
Close but... when I was in rez we were told to read these three books, The Myth of the Six Million (which would agree with what you posted - a delta in the numbers), The Hoax of the Twentieth Century - which did indeed try to dispel the whole thing, and The Thirteenth Tribe - which had nothing to do with WWII - just tried to prove that there are no more Jewish people left
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crystalclearblue
How very sad this all is. I did not know their family very well, but I could tell that they really loved each other and seemed very close and happy. I find it interesting that it seems like the Panarello's stayed on good terms with the way. Both ministries are mentioned in the obituary and they are going to help raise the Grandchildren from what his letter said. I'm glad Krystine was not pressured into cutting her parents out of her life. It's nice they can be there for each other. I feel sad for them all that they have had this loss.
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waysider
Hi, crystalclearblue
Yes, it is sad.
The Way promised to deliver a pie-in-the-sky utopia (via what they claimed was "God's Word") that defies the reality of how real life works. Maybe we were all just too young and naive to see it (The Way) for what it really was, a money making scheme for VPW & Co.
Anyway, welcome to GSC.
Have a latte on the house.
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crystalclearblue
Thanks for the latte. Yum.
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crystalclearblue
I've been thinking about what Shellon wrote. I'm so sorry you and your kids and family were treated like that. Loss is hard enough in itself. But to have the people closest to you blame you is unthinkable.
A therapist once told a friend of mine that she was having irrational thinking, because she was feeling guilty about her husband's death. He had been ill for a long time before he died. After he died she kept going back and forth between thinking maybe she didn't do enough to find a cure or maybe she let him suffer too long while she hoped for a cure. The therapist told her grief brings on irrational thinking. There was nothing she could have done to change the outcome. After she shared this with me, she asked me to help her when she started experiencing irrational thinking again.
She would sometimes call in the middle of the night, and all I had to do was remind her how much she loved her husband, how much he loved her and he knew she did everything she could for him. That's all it took for her to get peaceful again. When she would go through this, it was as if she was being tortured. It's now four years later and she is doing very well. She is happy and healthy and even dating. But it took over two years for her to get healed. I honestly believe that if someone had tried to blame her or play that kind of a mind game on her, she would not have survived it.
The therapist was right. It's irrational to blame ourselves or someone else for a death. It's part of the cycle of life. God can heal and deliver, I would never want to give up on believing that. I'll believe that until someone takes their last breath. But when it's done, we just have to help each other heal and love each other. No need for a "spiritual" autopsy.
Shellon, you seem like a very strong person to have survived all that and to be in contact with the relatives. You probably understand how to really help people the way they truly need to be helped.
I think the reason leaders blamed people so much is because they were terrible at their jobs. They had no clue how to minister to people. They liked to tout themselves as being a MOG with us knowing the truth greater than it had ever been known before blah blah blah. They should have known better than anyone how to minister. But for all their ego and holier than thou lectures, the were incompetant and inept. That's why they blamed.
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Shellon
Thank you and welcome to the cafe, someone will probably treat you to a cup of something soon. I would but I have no talent in graphic whatchacallit stuff. I'll just dance in hopes that your arrival here is a good thing for you.
I appreciated your kind words of encouragement, comfort and another's experience. Thank you, to you, for being a good friend to the woman you mentioned, it might never be known to you how much you provided.
When Moynihan and others were so ugly hearted to me and my children and my husband's memory, I understood they were wrong, thankfully. And I certainly never wish that kind of loss on even him, much less such lack of spiritual assistance and only harm and hurt to his heart.
We've come around to a new normal, it's been 12 years since this loss and we're great.
And the poor oversight of us is an additional loss in the lives of some leadership.
Hang out here and continue to share with us as you'd like, I look forward to reading further. :)
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crystalclearblue
I remember this too. Even his old girlfriend who was married and living in another state was treated weirdly when he died. The whole no deviating from your plan thing caused so much fear, it stopped people from living their lives. It went on for years.
I remember one woman was publicly praised for continuing to work hard even though she was very pregnant. She was held up as a great example. Then this other woman who was pregnant died in child birth. Afterwards she was ripped to shreds for not resting and taking care of herself better. I wondered if she had been influenced by the public praise the first woman had received, because she had always tried so hard to please. Mixed messages for sure.
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geisha779
This is tragic and heartbreaking. . . it is so horrible. . . shame on those who ripped her to shreds. . . shame on all of them and those who continue to support this group. What kind of people do this? This really makes me sick. I hope her loved ones never heard.
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crystalclearblue
Sadly, I think they did. Her husband was given a copy of the tape to listen to. I really hope her parents were not sent a copy. It was pretty horrible. She was a very sweet and kind girl. Just trying to please God and everyone. If she really did overwork herself, it was because she misunderstood something and was only trying to do the right thing. She was a very pure hearted young girl.
The kind of people who do these things are the kind of people who have no clue about God and are terrible at representing him. But they present themselves as if they are holy. Been going on for centuries. It's just startling and dissapointing when we realize the organization we were attached to was not immune from this.
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frank123lol
It isnt like the Billy Joel song,Only the good die young.To die early is a trajedy,my heart goes out to the family.
People die whether in twi or not.In twi we were supposed to be super human never be sick,nothing was supposed to
ever happen to us,as ya know it was a lie.
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JustThinking
Come to think of it, TWI aged me more than anything else in my life. So, yes, I guess I did grow old in the Way. :unsure:
JT
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Twinky
Actually I think I grew old out of The Way. After they'd M&A'd me and abandoned me.
First they asked me to take a break for a few months. Nobody was allowed to talk to me.
Then I was invited back to fellowship.
There I was publicly humiliated and given such a load of abuse that I couldn't think straight for years.
Then they all left the city where we'd been WoWs.
Left me in this strange city, with a crushing load of guilt and condemnation. No-one to talk to, at all. I hardly remember any of that time.
Many years later I discovered the Cafe.
The guilt and self-condemnation fell like scales from my eyes.
The weight on my shoulders evaporated.
My sound mind began to return.
I looked in the mirror and saw the lines and haggard look that I had acquired in the past decade.
And as my sound mind returned, I saw some of those lines soften, and the haggard look disappear.
Yes, people grow old in the Way.
They grow older out of the Way.
And they grow younger in the Cafe.
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JustThinking
Well said. Very well said.
JT
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