one word for the flaming sword that chases us out of the garden
and keeps us from even looking in the garden again...is mostly shame
as if the narrowest most direct path to seeing God (and his throneroom and his kingdom) is always already somewhere within
and so there is a natural sense of humiliation in discovering that our lifelong search for God was in vain all along...but quite necessary in order for us learn it for our selves
of course, we naturally want to avoid feeling such shame
so rather than going through the shame...we try and go around it
but that sword is always still there...no matter which way we try to get back home
our heart feels the heat whenever our attention moves towards our innermost garments
we naturally dont want to know what is in the dark under all the layers
and our underlying natures...our underlying callings...our underlying intentions
...the vast inward mysteries
yet a choir of saints and prophets and rabbis and monks and nuns seem to agree
that the inward path back to God is a gauntlet of humiliating discoveries (and re-discoveries)
but as always...this kind of language is insanity to most
we have not programmed the wisdom of folly and failure into our maps and models for so long
we cant bring our selves to look
what if the "fall of man"
is all of us simply waking up in an eternal free fall
and living a life of flinching madly in the dark
time after time...shattered into pieces ...becoming more each time
The word naked in the bible has it ties to the rest of the bible Adam was naked but what this tell about being naked for him.
Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not c.
3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Here Eve is talking to the serpent but serpent lies to her “Ye shall not surely die” after God warm her the day she ate of the tree she would die.
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The very day she ate of the tree she will die but lets look at it again “thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 3:6 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
They hide themselves because they have something wrong just like a small child would which had no understanding of right and wrong but they know what they have done was not good. They knew they were naked now before they were not ashamed but they are what different now.
They have eaten of the tree they was told not too but by eating of that tree they knew they were naked but before it did not matter. How could this naked matter more than death to Adam and Eve.
Genesis 3:9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 ¶ And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 ¶ Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Genesis 4:1 ¶ And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
We see the build was to get to a child not Cain who Eve had believe was from the Lord but Jesus Christ to save us from being naked and dead.
Jesus Christ came to save the world by quicken us and then dress in spiritual clothing so we would not have to be ashamed anymore.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
We were dead without hope Christ give us hope we were made alive new we were quicken but how did dress us.
Acts 1: 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Not all get dress many stay naked without clothes and ashamed for there dress never knowing the truth. Love Roy.
is it possible that the serpent was telling an important truth?
and that eve did nothing wrong, morally or otherwise?
and their shame for having done something wrong was/is the primary delusion that endures to this day?
as if "the wound of man" was/is not some sinful action...but an enduring state of shame for something we are already always both guilty and innocent of?
something like...
a) they did not realize they were not going to die
b) they get a self that realizes it is going to die
c) they die (before or after their mortal death) and realize their original self never was going to die...and the shame and fear was a temporary stage
Pure Witness of the endless ocean of the "unmanifest"
the vast clearing within which all that manifests arises
as if our very own "original face" is moving in this mystery
moving as the very formless form of this mystery unfolding
fundamentally fluid
fundamentally temporal
fundementally endless
not the self, or the Self, but our original SELF
the one that "was, is, and will be"
both oldest and youngest
reminds me…
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
as if predicting a direct experience of gen 1:1-2
...of Spirit moving across the face of the unknown
as it currently appears within
the divine matrix we must re-enter for a while
in order to die and be reborn
...in order to "get what direction jesus was coming from"
and give us a peek at the other side of our deep state of amnesia
so we can see for ourselves what direction we also are "coming from"
for them...this came after nine straight days of contemplative prayer and fasting, of course
and that only after already having spent a number of years practicing with the luckiest-unlucky jew on earth
to see what can be seen in such a life-altering way
can take anywhere from a twinkle of an eye ... to ten years or more for people like us
...with all our advantages and disadvantages and even more exaggerated varieties
Yes darkness was after the earth became without form and void. It had form and void THEN something happened and it lost it -- then darkness moved upon the face of the waters.
And the FIRST thing God speaks is LET there be Light. Then he seperates the darkness and the light calling the light good. This is the begining of polar opposites -- and seperation not integration of those things which are of God and those who are not. Remember Time means nothing to God so we do not know how look paradise was the home of Adam and Eve. But I think in his foreknowledge God already started the ball rolling -- with the finale in mind he called "his" into the light. But lets go back to that slice of time when they were still in the garden...
Adam and Eve were unaware there was anything such as evil - it seems. They did not need to "hide" to protect themselves they were intimate with God. All was well. THEN they eat of the tree of knowledge and that knowledge is described as GOOD and EVIL. Lord know what they saw... Can you imagine? Then came the hiding and the clothes...They lost their "right" living and "right" standing - righteousness with God. Imagine the guilt and sin conscienceness. Now defenseless they seek protection - covering from this new development - evil. It probably came like a violent storm on them... And never having been in a storm they sought protection, covering...they hid. Down the line the next Adam -- Jesus clothes us in righteousness -- he COVERS us with his blood.
hi Dot...i appreciate you...im glad you are playing along...your offerings challenge me
i hope you dont mind me asking like this...
maybe it helps to consider that its really also written more to anyone reading
is it not possible that "eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" is such a perfect "bad idea"
because it meant nourishing one's self with a system that does not have a capacity to discern the causes and effects of the whole chromatic nature of life and creation?
in other words...as if "God said 'if you feed your mind with dualistic thoughts your little self will be dead asleep to your "real naked beautiful good true unshamed eternal self'"
perhaps mostly because God just created at least a seven-fold reality
which is also why the tree of life was perfectly good to eat
...because the tree of life represented the whole "chain of being"
and the tree of good and evil does not
rather, it seems to represent a sense of enmity without end
or least enmity until we fall back through the flames
if "rod and staff" have anything to do with the ideas behind the "caduceus,"
or have anything to do with using a full spectrum for any kind of spiritual discernment ...or diagnosis
or even anything to do with a music staff
... wow
what a quintessential song for when we find our selves walking in that valley
reminding us we can find comfort using "the king of king's instrument" on our journey
amazing too...to think of how that very psalm has been sung throughout history,
in countless languages, by counteless egyptians, jews, christians, muslims at least
specifically because they were in their very moments of dying
reminds me...even more practically...of the arts and histories of "music thanatology"
and how a bandwith of musical "moods" has been developed for many millenia now...used to diagnose and soothe inner, or spiritual, or perhaps even "existential" pain and suffering
like singing the blues when you got the blues
singing red when you are feeling red
etc...
imo, only highlights the connections between the histories of hospitals, hospices and religions and such
pointing more directly at the original practical context most holy scripture were created in ... and for
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sirguessalot
one word for the flaming sword that chases us out of the garden
and keeps us from even looking in the garden again...is mostly shame
as if the narrowest most direct path to seeing God (and his throneroom and his kingdom) is always already somewhere within
and so there is a natural sense of humiliation in discovering that our lifelong search for God was in vain all along...but quite necessary in order for us learn it for our selves
of course, we naturally want to avoid feeling such shame
so rather than going through the shame...we try and go around it
but that sword is always still there...no matter which way we try to get back home
our heart feels the heat whenever our attention moves towards our innermost garments
we naturally dont want to know what is in the dark under all the layers
and our underlying natures...our underlying callings...our underlying intentions
...the vast inward mysteries
yet a choir of saints and prophets and rabbis and monks and nuns seem to agree
that the inward path back to God is a gauntlet of humiliating discoveries (and re-discoveries)
but as always...this kind of language is insanity to most
we have not programmed the wisdom of folly and failure into our maps and models for so long
we cant bring our selves to look
what if the "fall of man"
is all of us simply waking up in an eternal free fall
and living a life of flinching madly in the dark
time after time...shattered into pieces ...becoming more each time
or did i just describe wave of light particles?
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year2027
God first
Naked I was!
07-10-2009
The word naked in the bible has it ties to the rest of the bible Adam was naked but what this tell about being naked for him.
Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not c.
3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Here Eve is talking to the serpent but serpent lies to her “Ye shall not surely die” after God warm her the day she ate of the tree she would die.
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The very day she ate of the tree she will die but lets look at it again “thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
Genesis 3:6 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
They hide themselves because they have something wrong just like a small child would which had no understanding of right and wrong but they know what they have done was not good. They knew they were naked now before they were not ashamed but they are what different now.
They have eaten of the tree they was told not too but by eating of that tree they knew they were naked but before it did not matter. How could this naked matter more than death to Adam and Eve.
Genesis 3:9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 ¶ And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 ¶ Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Genesis 4:1 ¶ And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
We see the build was to get to a child not Cain who Eve had believe was from the Lord but Jesus Christ to save us from being naked and dead.
Jesus Christ came to save the world by quicken us and then dress in spiritual clothing so we would not have to be ashamed anymore.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
We were dead without hope Christ give us hope we were made alive new we were quicken but how did dress us.
Acts 1: 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Not all get dress many stay naked without clothes and ashamed for there dress never knowing the truth. Love Roy.
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sirguessalot
is it possible that the serpent was telling an important truth?
and that eve did nothing wrong, morally or otherwise?
and their shame for having done something wrong was/is the primary delusion that endures to this day?
as if "the wound of man" was/is not some sinful action...but an enduring state of shame for something we are already always both guilty and innocent of?
something like...
a) they did not realize they were not going to die
b) they get a self that realizes it is going to die
c) they die (before or after their mortal death) and realize their original self never was going to die...and the shame and fear was a temporary stage
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year2027
God first
hi everybody
good it be that God was face that can be seem
Genesis 1: 1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
could it be that face of the deep was God and could be without knowledge and understanding
showing us the hiding of the heaven and earth
love Roy
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sirguessalot
as if Spirit lives in Mystery
Pure Witness of the endless ocean of the "unmanifest"
the vast clearing within which all that manifests arises
as if our very own "original face" is moving in this mystery
moving as the very formless form of this mystery unfolding
fundamentally fluid
fundamentally temporal
fundementally endless
not the self, or the Self, but our original SELF
the one that "was, is, and will be"
both oldest and youngest
reminds me…
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
as if predicting a direct experience of gen 1:1-2
...of Spirit moving across the face of the unknown
as it currently appears within
the divine matrix we must re-enter for a while
in order to die and be reborn
...in order to "get what direction jesus was coming from"
and give us a peek at the other side of our deep state of amnesia
so we can see for ourselves what direction we also are "coming from"
for them...this came after nine straight days of contemplative prayer and fasting, of course
and that only after already having spent a number of years practicing with the luckiest-unlucky jew on earth
to see what can be seen in such a life-altering way
can take anywhere from a twinkle of an eye ... to ten years or more for people like us
...with all our advantages and disadvantages and even more exaggerated varieties
thank God for grace and mercy
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Dot Matrix
Hi Cman
Yes darkness was after the earth became without form and void. It had form and void THEN something happened and it lost it -- then darkness moved upon the face of the waters.
And the FIRST thing God speaks is LET there be Light. Then he seperates the darkness and the light calling the light good. This is the begining of polar opposites -- and seperation not integration of those things which are of God and those who are not. Remember Time means nothing to God so we do not know how look paradise was the home of Adam and Eve. But I think in his foreknowledge God already started the ball rolling -- with the finale in mind he called "his" into the light. But lets go back to that slice of time when they were still in the garden...
Adam and Eve were unaware there was anything such as evil - it seems. They did not need to "hide" to protect themselves they were intimate with God. All was well. THEN they eat of the tree of knowledge and that knowledge is described as GOOD and EVIL. Lord know what they saw... Can you imagine? Then came the hiding and the clothes...They lost their "right" living and "right" standing - righteousness with God. Imagine the guilt and sin conscienceness. Now defenseless they seek protection - covering from this new development - evil. It probably came like a violent storm on them... And never having been in a storm they sought protection, covering...they hid. Down the line the next Adam -- Jesus clothes us in righteousness -- he COVERS us with his blood.
Anyway - that is how I see it.
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sirguessalot
hi Dot...i appreciate you...im glad you are playing along...your offerings challenge me
i hope you dont mind me asking like this...
maybe it helps to consider that its really also written more to anyone reading
is it not possible that "eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" is such a perfect "bad idea"
because it meant nourishing one's self with a system that does not have a capacity to discern the causes and effects of the whole chromatic nature of life and creation?
in other words...as if "God said 'if you feed your mind with dualistic thoughts your little self will be dead asleep to your "real naked beautiful good true unshamed eternal self'"
perhaps mostly because God just created at least a seven-fold reality
which is also why the tree of life was perfectly good to eat
...because the tree of life represented the whole "chain of being"
and the tree of good and evil does not
rather, it seems to represent a sense of enmity without end
or least enmity until we fall back through the flames
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sirguessalot
i think of the story of trying to cast a demon out
and how it merely snaps back with a spectrum of trouble
because that demon is also a fallen angel
and as such...is connected to every other vital part of us
seems to me that discernment worth being called biblical allows for some sort of full spectrum of consideration in all matters
so that when we find shadows in life...we see them not as something to be cast out, or somehow cut off
but as a part of the whole bandwidth of the self
we may simply need to comb some knots out
or trim a wick so that light shines there again
honestly...how can one evaluate why a hole in the flute is not in tune
if one is not considering its relationship to the other holes?
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cman
Dot, you always have some good input to expand on.
Thinking of what God said.
eat of every tree-except- that one -
yeah right, like that doesn't make me want to check it out you know
it's a gotcha situation I believe
makes me think of that whole does God tempt or not deal
if God would of not put the tree there then no problem
but he did
and what's more, pointed it out specifically
yeah, right, I won't eat of that tree
that seems so central to God's Attention....
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sirguessalot
ha..yeah
reminds me of when the railroad reps came and called an assembly in my grade school
warned us of the dangers of playing on railroad tracks
by telling us a story of a kid who was flattening nickels on the rails
but one was lopsided and shot out and hit him in the neck like a bullet
:blink:
so the very kids they were trying to reach
were sitting in the auditorium
dreaming up ways to set the nickels lopsided
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sirguessalot
what can be seen
more and more...i cant help but find "the revelation of jesus christ" to be the clearest book in the bible
at it pertains to "what can be seen"
as if jesus christ
found a clever loving way
to give this very long future
an unforgettable copy
of his own map
of everything
quite the poet
...
what can be seen
i see how the mind of christ is portrayed in the opening scenes
how after declaring that he has "the keys of hell and death"
its as if he is saying...
"start here" for more
initiates a process of our initial "illumination of our inward human"
can be seen as harmless, universal, beautiful and inviting as lighting a menora
one by one, the candles are lit
each new illumination brings a new message
until the full staff of messengers are flickering as one
the lessons come forth using an series of archetypes and riddles
7 gifts
7 warnings
7 rewards
brilliant, really
a puppet show for children of all ages
all languages
like learning numbers and alphabets
or how to play a harp
even older...becomes more like a checklist for taking off
or otherwise getting to know the cardinal points of your gear
while becoming outfitted for the climb of a life
then the throne room is like a reward...an initiation...like graduation day
...and signal to prepare for the next leg of this inward gauntlet
as if the original students of christ
actually purified themselves
tested themselves
against this series of seals
:blink:
funny too
reads like jesus was writing a video game script
or the sketch of the ultimate reality program
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cman
yes, a clearing, a death to discover our first love
it's there hiding in the shadows of death
to die before we die
Psalm 23:4
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Still can be done...more...
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sirguessalot
hm
if "rod and staff" have anything to do with the ideas behind the "caduceus,"
or have anything to do with using a full spectrum for any kind of spiritual discernment ...or diagnosis
or even anything to do with a music staff
... wow
what a quintessential song for when we find our selves walking in that valley
reminding us we can find comfort using "the king of king's instrument" on our journey
amazing too...to think of how that very psalm has been sung throughout history,
in countless languages, by counteless egyptians, jews, christians, muslims at least
specifically because they were in their very moments of dying
reminds me...even more practically...of the arts and histories of "music thanatology"
and how a bandwith of musical "moods" has been developed for many millenia now...used to diagnose and soothe inner, or spiritual, or perhaps even "existential" pain and suffering
like singing the blues when you got the blues
singing red when you are feeling red
etc...
imo, only highlights the connections between the histories of hospitals, hospices and religions and such
pointing more directly at the original practical context most holy scripture were created in ... and for
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cman
Almost 200 uses of the word 'dead' in the new testament.
Mostly Romans, 1 Corinthians, Hebrews and Revelation.
Besides the word die, I think this is important.
As well as it's use in the old testament.
It's not a new concept.
It started in Genesis ya know.
I just wonder if anyone could handle looking into this thing honestly.
I'm sure there is, we just haven't heard yet....
The day Adam and Eve ate of that tree they saw.
Could it be that they died and that is why their eyes opened?
Sure looks that way.....
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