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God first

Hi Cman

I did a search naked once their were dead at this point

they bodies were alive but

death have begin show because they die they wearing dead images of God light and power

that light that shines after death and before now since Christ quicken us

even Atheism were quicken

they were not dress anymore

they could see death crawling on the body before they were perfect

but now their not just in a believer looks after they let Christ there a new glow to the person

Adam notice that they lost the glow to him

love Roy

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Job 26

1But Job answered and said,

2How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?

3How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?

4To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?

5Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.

6Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

7He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

8He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.

9He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.

10He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

11The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

12He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.

13By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

14Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?

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God first

Hi Cman

they be dead but to say cannot see a small change in their selves

maybe the generation might not see the Change but we are about Adam here

Adman saw because he knew was wrong he of not understood it but He saw the change

love Roy

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The nakedness that they experienced, I do believe, was the knowledge that they had sinned, that is both of them. Therefore, they were both exposed. They didn't understand and therefore tried to cover up the outside flesh when it was the nakedness of their spirits that needed covering, because they had just lost the "Covering" of the Holy Spirit.

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while im no longer able to be some sort of translation nazi about this stuff

'naked' is perhaps one of my most favoritist words in the universe

i've also long found it interesting that the hebrew word for 'subtil'

as in "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field"

is the root for 'naked' throughout the rest of the garden story

of course i am not the ancient person who penned this

but i'll venture a guess that there is at least some overlooked point here

the whole story reminds me of stages of ego development

...or natural stages of becoming self-aware, if you will

aka "the riddle in the mirror"...or "revelation" and "enlightenment" and such

like all boys and girls...adam and eve start out unaware of who they are

or that there is a self worth "having"

of course...the most naked part of their self-sense speaks up and and gets their attention

naturally the girl is the first to learn what comes next

the boy typically must be told by someone else

...so she tells him, of course

together, they fall into the natural trap of believing that their self somehow begins and ends.

...creating an ego who is afraid to die.

drawing line after line after line between "self" and "other"

before graduating to drawing lines between "selfs" and "others"

munching on the tree of good and evil...which is to speak and define in dualistic terms

...yada yada yada

and so begins the human part of the bible story

thank God it has some sort of endless end

Edited by sirguessalot
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God first

hi Todd

what your saying is that they naked in knowledge

Adam did not know he was boy yet and Eve have knowledge she was a girl

while Adam name everybody he saw dog just its name just someone to play with

it is a stage that everybody has parts himself the bigger self not just me

Adam had no of knowing or beginning to know a dog might bite no one told him about dogs yet

love Roy

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I am more interested in how they knew to sew. What was the needle made from? What did they use as thread to sew the fig leaves together? Why did they choose fig leaves to make aprons? Was Adam's apron just around the waist and Eve's the kind the Waffle House waitress wears? Did the apron cover the back side so as not to show the buttocks (buttocks as in Forrest Gump.. did I spell Forrest as in Gump correctly?)

Oh, many of life's wonders.

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I don't think they sewed like with a needle and thread.

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The point is they were naked and didn't see it-

point one

Then there eyes were open and they saw this nakedness-

what did they see?

point two

And thanks kimberly for another valid point,

what did they cover this nakedness with?

Fig leaves as well as the fig tree has a lot of meaning.

I don't believe their nakedness meant without clothing like shirt and pants.

It's much more meaningful then that I believe.

Edited by cman
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i dunno

seems the reaction varies wildly

to all the possible depths and degrees of nakedness

and depths and degrees of self-exposure, self-examination, self-experience

depends a lot on where one draws those lines of "self"

at any given moment

some may include their bodies

some may not

some may include their clothes

some may not

some may include their house and car

some may not

some may include family and ancestors

some may not

some may include the flora and fauna

some may not

some may include their dreams

some may not

some may include the air we breathe

some may not

some may include this or that feeling or thought

some may not

some may include everything

some may not

yada yada yada

can anyone say for sure where those lines are always supposed to be drawn?

or is any one side of any given line more or less real than the other?

Edited by sirguessalot
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to add: i also feel that we most naturally and unconsciously react to our "nakedness" the same way adam and even did...with deep shame ...a profound ignorance and disbelief...

...so we fight or flee ... we do the craziest thing and actually try to save our sense of self from both our original and final pure spiritual condition of being "naked and unashamed"

...we get the opposite of the truth in our mind...where approaching this "nakedness" is like approaching "death"

...when ultimately...this original "nakedness" is the home we never left

...except in our mind

odd creatures

Edited by sirguessalot
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the veil i think

so many layers to open

happens to all in times within times

good to see you +

never a stranger to me

can anyone say for sure where those lines are always supposed to be drawn?

---

...except in our mind

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never a stranger to me, either, cman

plz permit a stream...

...

what can be seen

i find it positively odd

how throughout the pages of the Bible, for example

we read story after story of a manifold nature of God, or Spirit, or One, or ultimate truth and reality, or whatever

vivid and timeless metaphors and enigmas speak of a manifold universe

...and a manifold interior human being

such as

...multicolored dreamcoats

...dreams of many-runged ladders

...faiths purified like gold 7 times

...serpents climbing poles as a symbol of medicine

...in-vested with a glorious array of gatherings and knots

...rainbows and angels around the mind of our king of kings on a throne of crystal

...living epistles and books with seven seals...slaughtered lambs with seven horns and seven eyes

...and on and on and on and on

i cant help but agree that awareness of such texture and detail

is certainly worth calling some sort of "original nakedness"

as we disrobe our selves with our attention

we become more and more naked with each skirt that is raised

perhaps it is when we run out layers

that we find that original naked unashamed state

where nothing needs to be added

its just that our eyelid has simply fallen

and we are partially asleep

no need to be ashamed of that

what we once thought was someone else through a glass darkly becomes clearer

i am is always already simply a riddle in a mirror

...

what can be seen

what does it really mean to "see?"

any child can ask...what does you see when you close your eyes?

what does my body feel?

what do i see when i sleep?

what do i see when i dream?

where is all this happening?

how many flavors?

textures?

details?

is anyone there?

etc...

that is what the people in the stories did

no...not for ten seconds before changing the channel back to whatever

for days

months

years

generations...

often while suffering

or dying

or imprisoned

what else you going to do at a time like that?

when such terrain is more vibrant and raw...and less avoidable

this profound history of interior discovery is "why religion?"

the profound danger of avoiding this terrain seems obvious

just as is the profound danger of avoiding the exterior

but the interior is always closest

a most direct and immediate path

certainly a narrow way

eye of a needle

in our hands

yada yada

a minimum requirement

of sorts

...

what can be seen

this firmament between heaven and earth

is the line drawn between subject and object

between me

and not me

this firmament moves with the simplist flicker of attention

this firmament then "becomes" the fig leaves...and aprons

...the armor...the army

this all seems blood red universal to all who have lived to see it

which is why xenophobia is a foul heresy...and an immediate disqualifier

the pot is cracked

its ok...one can start again

again

...

what can be seen

a simplification...

some are stuck mostly in the skull..and "see" from the skull

some are stuck mostly in the heart..and "see" from the heart

some are stuck mostly stuck in the gut...and "see" from the gut

etc...

every inch we find with our nakedest eye

is intimately connected to every inch of our original self

...

what can be seen

Edited by sirguessalot
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interesting...

looked up xenophobia

not a one here has not experienced it imo

to some degree

leading to it's deadly isolating tyranny of one's own self

which can easily be walked away from

cause it only takes one step back to see one's self

but more often it a push forward ingrained in the psyche-

that inhibits movement, which is thought to be forward

and movement is activated

and not by our will, but by natural/spiritual force

which is happening faster then it can be clothed

hidden in plain sight

the words are in the open

ready to be activated at the slightest touch of honest rebellion

yes as a child asking the simplest questions

we ask, the most honest rebellion there is.....

what can be seen....everything

what can't...nothing

a child is smart enough to know it takes time

looking forward to expanding vision

it's that heart soul and mind that sees beyond themselves

in the twinkling of an eye

suddenly it's here -it never left-

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An lo when Eve saw the Victoria's Secret catalog she saw that she was naked and sought to cover her nakedness with lingerie.

Victoria's Secret made for her an apron of French Maid design replete with wrist restraints for later garden frolicking.

Then the serpent (also known as the Cyclops) saw how fair she was and made designs for her downfall. The Cyclops / serpent approached her and told her that she was fair and suitable only for more lingerie and his special device called a heavenly motor coach.

Meanwhile Adam was checking out his lady saying to himself - "hey man this naked thing is way cool - she's a real babe!!"

Then Adam saw Eve walking off into the coach with the Cyclops and realized she had left God for the Cyclops and her nakedness and ...

The original sin was committed...soliciting a minor (she was only a few days old technically) with Drambuie instead of good scotch

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I'd say what Eve did was quite wise.

The serpent, more subtle then any beast of which Eve was not.

Eve beat the serpent at his own game.

The serpent being one with god as all things work together.

Along with bringing Adam into the eyes being open,

Psalm 85:10-11

10Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

11Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.

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God first

I see myself as many and as one!

07-08-2009

I see me the selfish part of me where I am give me this or that but that the only parts I have because I, can be we, them, us, and many more. I image wants every thing now but I become we I share with all others.

Them puts me outside the group people but us makes me part of every thing again how do you see yourself. There are many parts each person just outside of each person and the inside of each person.

But can one be the me while there the them sure a person can see from many points of view there no limit on it. You can see from inside while seeing the out side but can also see all the layers that are inside and outside there is no true line.

Is your body outside the world or is the world outside your body or are you inside the world or on the outside of it. Are you outside the heavens are you inside of them you are both at same time.

I tell you a great of life is seeing not as I but we, us, and then because you begin to this you understand greater things. I going to end now so think this some without the hope that draws us all together love Roy.

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My take:

In Genesis 1:4 God already begins to SEPERATE polar opposites when he divided the LIGHT from the darkness. He saw the LIGHT and it was GOOD. He does not say the darkness was good.

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Darkness and light had been separated.

In the garden Adam and Eve only KNEW good. Once they ate of the TREE of the knowledge of Good and Evil they then KNEW Good and KNEW Evil. Evil is something they never knew before. They also were never disobedient before so after eating they KNEW evil and KNEW they did a bad thing -- perhaps the biggest UT-oh moment in history.

So, then they found themselves exposed to things they had never been exposed to before -- and they were "naked" defenseless. They now knew evil and they had done a no-no so they were outside of the will of God and were naked to EVERYTHING. The realization they just walked away from GOOD and now sat at the table of BAD.

Genesis 3:22 (Amplified Bible)

22And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us [the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit], to know [how to distinguish between] good and evil and blessing and calamity; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever—

In Psalms 23

There is a book written by an actual shepherd who explains all of the things we gloss over. For instance SHEEP are easily led, easily frightened, they cannot rest if there is discourse among them, they only lie down if they can see the shepherd. They are defenseless creatures.

I think the nakedness was to EVIL without defenses and now feeling alienated from God because they broke some form of covenant they had with him.

Their nakedness was "without GOD". The symbol for this was trying to protect the FLESH with clothes because up until that point they were not living "carnal" fleshy lives. The

Bible is loaded with symbols and symbolism -- such as Samson's hair was the external SYMBOL of the covenant he made.

Then, the rest of the Bible God draws comparisons between good and evil. He does so by telling us there are two fathers - one of lies the other of love. He tells us the Shepherd seperates the Sheep from the goats. He tells us light has no fellowship with darkness, he calls us wheat and warns of tares, he calls us sheep and warns of wolves. HE gives us gift ministries like a prophet and a teacher then warns of false prophets and teachers. From Gen 1:4 on the Bible talks of polar opposites and which side you need to stay on and who and what to avoid. You can have some wine just do not get drunk. You can eat well but avoid gluttony. Etc, etc. Then, because we cannot do it alone he sends us Jesus and we are COVERED in his blood. We are no longer naked but we are now clothed in HIS righteousness... we were naked and Jesus covered us.

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i like all that Roy

all the paradoxes of life (and the bible stories) are certainly challenging to navigate

helps a lot to be able to be so free to see in such a way as you described

...one and many

...inside and outside

...etc

not an "either-or" ... but a "both-and"

...God is All in All...and we are All already always in God

...

what can be seen

as ive mentioned before...there seems another common misunderstanding regarding the nature of "self"

...as it is expressed in the gospels

to love neighbor as self...is NOT about loving an "other," but about realizing that ultimately, there is NO other

the "other" IS both YOU and GOD in ONE

this is the classic pattern of being both clothed and naked at once

...in the "unity of the spirit" and "being one with God"

because God has no opposite

this way of thinking that there are "others" is the work of the ego

and at the root of all war, racism, violence, etc...

leaf versus leaf...in spite of being parts of the self same forest

...

what can be seen

if i may ask...does anyone have an idea why darkness is so often immediately associated with evil and sin and spiritual danger and such?

is not everything that is in the darkness full of the pure absolute truth of God that we simply have not seen yet?

if God is in all...and all is in God...how can anything be outside of God?

(except as way to describe OUR view when we think there is something outside of God)

are we not to be lights and enter darkness to illuminate the goodness truth and beauty that is there?

if we flee darkness...and avoid it for being such an evil...how can we ever BE lights?

how can there be territory in the universe that is outside of God's presence?

is this not a "heresy"...where we have picked and choosed some part over the whole holy whole?

Edited by sirguessalot
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to add...there are so so many contradictions in scripture...hard to ignore and avoid them

seems we can only get into "God versus evil" if we ignore/avoid those many many scriptures that put BOTH good and evil in the hands of an omni-everything God

even the acts of Judas were considered necessary stage of the big story

and surely such radical inclusion is not limited to him

like adam and eve...everything that happened in the garden couldnt have happened any other way

...

to see "the holy one"...is to see the WHOLE ONE...not just the branch or two that happen to be in our immediate sight

the ego cannot do this...it is like judas...it serves to betray us so that we fulfill our destiny and wake up

life is a series of necessary births and deaths...so-called failures and deceptions

but so much of popular culture and psychology wants to somehow destroy the ego

or somehow remove the ego

this too is an egocentric chapter we must travel through

...an ego trying in vain to kill an ego

the ego has a role to play...like Roy said..the selfish part of me

also called the magical part of me

the willful, childish, fantastic part of me

that prefers possibility over reality

via "the law of attraction" and "the law of believing"

the profound danger of living exclusively in this part of the self seems obvious

just as the profound danger of excluding this part of the self

Edited by sirguessalot
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Hi Dot,

Yes I do think we are clothed with righteousness.

And in that line of thinking the clothing of Genesis seems to take form.

And being cleansed by the blood rather then covered,

is a different look and feel wouldn't you say?

Cause if at some time we were not clothed,

or clothed with something else,

wouldn't that need removed or cleansed to enjoy the new clothing.

As a side note, darkness was first.

and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

Yes separated but connected I would think.

Job 12:22

He discovereth deep things out of darkness, and bringeth out to light the shadow of death.

2 Corinthians 4:6

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

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i agree too

even that "the clothing of genesis" is vividly portrayed throughout not only the bible, but all the world's ancient scriptures

"the Great Chain of Being" of Christian history is one very vivid example of this

something universally discovered and uncovered ...rather than invented or created

where in what is found by all to be most common and most possible ... is found the meaning of sacred and divine

...

and yeah...darkness was first

this points to what many have found to mean

that darkness means ignorance, not evil

and darkness is where the truth is hiding

this is the fathomless mystery that outnumbers all that we might know

the fathomless uncovered possibility we often call God, or "the Whole Spirit"

as if "God found it wise to give himself amnesia"

and God separated light from darkness by simply peering into the mystery he created

and the part that he saw was beautiful

some sources say the word "good" is better understood as "beautiful"

because all of creation is beautiful

so that which is illuminated can be seen as beautiful

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