I found this passage to be particularly interesting:
"Dr. Cath defined a cult as a group of people joined together by a common ideological system fostered by a charismatic leader, where, he said, ''the expectation is that they can transcend the imperfections and finitude of life.''
He said: ''Often they set up a we-they philosophy: We have the truth and you do not.'' In what Dr. Clark called healthy, valid groups, conversion is achieved in good faith without coercion, and the individual is encouraged to reconcile himself to his history, his family and his culture, even when he may be working for change in his society. ''But in destructive cults,'' said Dr. Clark, ''current and prior connectedness is denied.''
Dr. Clark said that the pattern of manipulated cult conversions may not appear especially radical to outsiders, since no one is beaten or otherwise physically harmed."
I found this passage to be particularly interesting:
"Dr. Cath defined a cult as a group of people joined together by a common ideological system fostered by a charismatic leader, where, he said, ''the expectation is that they can transcend the imperfections and finitude of life.''
He said: ''Often they set up a we-they philosophy: We have the truth and you do not.'' In what Dr. Clark called healthy, valid groups, conversion is achieved in good faith without coercion, and the individual is encouraged to reconcile himself to his history, his family and his culture, even when he may be working for change in his society. ''But in destructive cults,'' said Dr. Clark, ''current and prior connectedness is denied.''
Dr. Clark said that the pattern of manipulated cult conversions may not appear especially radical to outsiders, since no one is beaten or otherwise physically harmed."
!!!sounds very familiar huh??? (OH me Oh My Oh "why" did I ever go to OHIO :excl:
Visit this T.E.D. talk by former moonie & deprogrammer, Diane Benscoter, about how the human brain is changed by the circular logic, etc. of extreme dogmatic groups.
I think she may be right about how impenetrable circular logic can be, although for many of us who left TWI, for example, somehow we found a way to break through that firewall so it is not impossible to do. Critical thinking is the method of release, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, this topic is not new to many of you here, but her talk is concise. She has also written a memoir.
It's food for thought and debate.
T.E.D. is a site for "Ideas worth spreading" as it says.
Cheers!
Thanks Penworks! This is my take on it I call it The Way International and Germ Warfare or(Don't cast your pearls before Swine!)
Germs as weapons to be considered effective and usable must maintain four attributes.
1.Be within the economic means of the users. (the classes we took,if you don't have the money
well..just believe God. If you can't get it your NOT taking it.
2.The weapon has to be capable of reaching a desired TARGET(an intended target not just any old
target,not the homeless,the people usually over 30yrs old set in there ways,or the children in 3rd
world countrys that need help.
No this intended target was a germ warfare (symbolically speaking ofcourse)but seriously it HURT
many many people spiritually,emotionally,finacially and brought even some to their own DEATH.
3. It has to cause collatral damage,a weapon that kills both sides just creates no effect for the maker
of the germ.
4.Finally,the germ has to result in desired effects,the outcome of its intent. Ususally death(spiritual
darkness to me is death)
(the U.S. Code and the FBI define terrorism as...the unlawful use of force or violence against persons
or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population,or any segment thereof, in
furtherance of political or social objectives.)
Who knew 30 yrs down the road I would be warning people of The "ministry"(cough!)I so would
have given my life for to serve.
I believe now this whole ball of wax was a system designed just like a terrorist designs a chemical
that can wipe out a target he desires.
In this case the target was young,mostly middle class, white, educated people,and the Jesus movement
at the time just gave it that extra bonus round.
It was a whole ball of wax allright...like collected ear wax so impacted in your brain we were deaf to
anything else!
Let him that has ears hear.
The hot zone is described as something as to when an infection that is highly toxic is running loose and has to be maintained in a structured enviroment,with masks and suits and gloves and shoes like when dealing with ebola virus(stuff the army at ft detrick do and center for disease control,)
i write this for people who are looking to get OUT of the danger of cult teachings,people that need help trying to get to the other side of WRONG TEACHING sometimes in healing we have to get untangled from scripture abuse and that can create a hot zone (FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT ALL)it is very very hard to say try to go to a church for some if that is what they want to do,the trust level is blown out of the water for some people it is life and death,you feel unworthy,you feel separated from God because the way told you this lie or another,still we have so much knowledge of truth,we just need to get rid of the lies and break that chains of way slavery bondage,
whether you are a christian,or whatever you wish to be,i really don't care how you get there just get there and be free. personally i had to go thru the bible to get that virus out of my head,poison out of my heart..i am not a church going person but,i needed help like seriously i was sick ,and if you are thier as most of us didn't and couldn't just walk away without injury,i was lucky '"BLESSED" to find KAY ARTHURS precept teachings and a person to help me at FT BRAGG N.C protestant women of the chapel,bible studies,it was like pulling teeth sometimes but just give things a chance if that is what your doing. I am very thankful to those people as my children are to have a parent because it could have like a virus deadly
for what its worth…here is my quick ramble using some simple models…
According to many models of evolution, everything develops in a sequential manner, moving through stages, each structure building on a template of previous structures. Like going through preschool, kindergarten, 1st grade, 2nd grade, 3rd grade, etc... Stages cannot be skipped, though a greater cognitive reach may give better glimpses of other stages from “afar,” and any stage can be accessed as a temporary state (for any number of reasons, but typically causing as much confusion as good).
Now, as this pertains to the evolution of human understanding and behavior, these "grades" are like cultural and behavioral structures that spread more or less “memetically” and continue to evolve from there (even if this evolution happens within a stagnation or pathology…for example: where a “hitler structure” can simply get better and better at being and disseminating the improved “hitler structure”)
What we often call "religion" is usually referring to the "mythic membership" stage of evolution. This meme is typically marked by some sort of -theism, military patriarchies and sacred brotherhoods, agrarian lifestyles, ethnocentric values, textual fundamentalism...no matter what the language, skin color, historical timing, etc…
And though this is something humans already wrapped our mind around a few millenia back when we moved from egocentric to ethnocentric awareness and cultural arrangements, evolution happens in overlapping and lingering waves, it seems. And all the basic structures remain (probably because the primary elements of them are still necessary and useful)
And there is great value to the mythic stage of evolution, but also 1) all kinds of damage can be done there (perhaps manifest in a repression of that meme as one develops) 2) development can and does also simply stop there (giving us the hardened fundamentalists) 3) it can be suppressed and/or exploited by those of higher structures of consciousness 4) all kinds of other shyte, as usual
On a more microcosmic level, this 2nd stage of development is something we also individually develop in early-early childhood, when we learn about notions of “us and them.” And there are notions that we move (or not) through the stages, including them (or not) as we go, as parts of a new greater whole, while excluding our sole-identification with them. Even the body-to-soul-to-spirit sequence is valid in this regard, in a sense.
And to the rational minded "3rd grader," there are so many things that might look like more of the same ole "2nd grade religion", but which actually may be 4th grade and beyond (same texts and names used, perhaps, but way different understanding, intention and overall prime directives involved).
So, then what is the value of “religion” as mythic membership?
Compared to the more primal magic stages, i would say: better sex, better food, better clothes, better tools, better community, better survival rate, deeper friendships, a sense of safety, more children, more industrious and innovative (and all because we more or less agreed on the same mythic "other" God-father figure for this inherited exclusive family-ness). Without a few thousand years of this, “the brotherhood,” we would have never moved into our more rational era.
Also, though hopefully, the understanding of “diety” and “divine” may expand and change through rational stages and beyond, the notions of family and brotherhood and gathering into groups for some mythic far-off ideal should always remain valid and vital, even if they no longer dominate.
Of course, the 4th graders will not like my using any notion of grades at all, and the 3rd graders may like the grading, but might not like being given a grade without further proof, and the 2nd graders will refuse to believe that their family is not the highest grade, and the 1st grader could care less, they just want to know where the food is, or praise, or something entertaining, perhaps.
…so sorry if I offend or seem cruel…kinda hard to avoid with this subject…
Anyway, according to each of these basic "lower" memes, each of the other lower memes are simply wrong (and considered crazy). And the ongoing conflicts and relationships between the 4 most basic structures of consciousness are like the "four food groups" of the crucible of human development.
What I see happening now, are some sudden swells in the 1-2-3 level, even as half of the world has and is already leaning heavy heavy into the 3-4 level (this age of rational science and economics and political/cultural pluralism and leaps in communication ways and styles).
Another problem is, it seems, is most often, many of the “sacred texts” of the 2nd graders were often written by folks who were beyond even 4th grade, and their great wisdom and understanding is mostly off-limits to majority the population of the religion that clings blindly to it (often violently, as we have seen). Kinda how PFAL and VPs pseudo-science/pseudo-bible was rooted somewhere in the 2nd grade as he struggled to bring the 3rd grade down (to merge the mythical and rational worldviews). (Of course, we have also since learned that he spent a lot of time in 1st and 2nd grade…the booze and sex and vanity)).
Anyway, a few valuable questions I have heard along these lines are: How might we help elevate those of the mythic stage to rational without damaging or losing the textual and traditional wisdom they hold? And how might we restore the actual rational value of the texts to the rational minded?
Perhaps. Or they voluntarily, or involuntarily put themselves and or were put in situations where maniacs could apply psychological conditioning. The techniques do work..
\Yes your right Ham (perhaps)
The Culture of Cults
Summary
Religious organisations and movements are free to practice their religion as they choose, subject to the laws of the land. In practice, this means that cults, in promoting their religious beliefs and gaining adherents, are free to use deception, misrepresentation, psychological coercion or any other techniques which do not leave physical traces and are difficult to prove in a court of law.
Initially using conventional marketing techniques, cults promote their particular belief systems. The trick is that through influencing a person's beliefs, it is possible to influence or indirectly control a person's mind. The actual controlling of mind is done by the person themselves, as they attempt to train and discipline their mind in accordance with the tenets of their new belief system. It is the belief system itself which is the primary active agent in cult mind control.
Cult belief systems differ from conventional belief systems in a number of subtle but significant ways, which may not be apparent to an outsider. To understand the nature of these differences is to understand the nature of a cult.
Cult belief systems are typically:
Independent and non-accountable - believers follow their own self-justifying moral codes: e.g. a Moonie may, in their own mind, justify deceptive recruiting as 'deceiving evil into goodness'.
Aspirational - they appeal to ambitious, idealistic people. The assumption that only weak, gullible people join cults is not necessarily true.
Personal and experiential - it is not possible to exercise informed free choice in advance, about whether the belief system is valid or not, or about the benefits of following the study and training opportunities offered by the group. The benefits, if any, of group involvement can only be evaluated after a suitable period of time spent with the group. How long a suitable period of time might be, depends on the individual, and cannot be determined in advance.
Hierarchical and dualistic - cult belief systems revolve around ideas about higher and lower levels of understanding. There is a hierarchy of awareness, and a path from lower to higher levels. Believers tend to divide the world into the saved and the fallen, the awakened and the deluded, etc.
Bi-polar - believers experience alternating episodes of faith and doubt, confidence and anxiety, self-righteousness and guilt, depending how well or how badly they feel they are progressing along the path.
Addictive - believers may become intoxicated with the ideals of the belief system, and feel a vicarious pride in being associated with these ideals. Cults tend to be cliquey and elitist, and believers can become dependent on the approval of the group's elite to maintain their own self-esteem. At an extreme, believers fear they will fall into hell if they leave the group.
Psychologically damaging - when established members leave or are expelled, they may develop a particular kind of cult-induced mental disorder, marked by anxiety and difficulty in making decisions. The disorder exhibits similarities to (but is not identical to) post-traumatic stress disorder, and certain types of adjustment disorders. [iCD 10, F60.6, F66.1, etc.]
Non-falsifiable - a cult belief system can never be shown to be invalid or wrong. This is partly why critics have low credibility, and why it can be difficult to warn people of the dangers of a cult.
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waysider
I found this passage to be particularly interesting:
"Dr. Cath defined a cult as a group of people joined together by a common ideological system fostered by a charismatic leader, where, he said, ''the expectation is that they can transcend the imperfections and finitude of life.''
He said: ''Often they set up a we-they philosophy: We have the truth and you do not.'' In what Dr. Clark called healthy, valid groups, conversion is achieved in good faith without coercion, and the individual is encouraged to reconcile himself to his history, his family and his culture, even when he may be working for change in his society. ''But in destructive cults,'' said Dr. Clark, ''current and prior connectedness is denied.''
Dr. Clark said that the pattern of manipulated cult conversions may not appear especially radical to outsiders, since no one is beaten or otherwise physically harmed."
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cheranne
!!!sounds very familiar huh???
(OH me Oh My Oh "why" did I ever go to OHIO :excl:
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cheranne
Germs as weapons to be considered effective and usable must maintain four attributes.
1.Be within the economic means of the users. (the classes we took,if you don't have the money
well..just believe God. If you can't get it your NOT taking it.
2.The weapon has to be capable of reaching a desired TARGET(an intended target not just any old
target,not the homeless,the people usually over 30yrs old set in there ways,or the children in 3rd
world countrys that need help.
No this intended target was a germ warfare (symbolically speaking ofcourse)but seriously it HURT
many many people spiritually,emotionally,finacially and brought even some to their own DEATH.
3. It has to cause collatral damage,a weapon that kills both sides just creates no effect for the maker
of the germ.
4.Finally,the germ has to result in desired effects,the outcome of its intent. Ususally death(spiritual
darkness to me is death)
(the U.S. Code and the FBI define terrorism as...the unlawful use of force or violence against persons
or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population,or any segment thereof, in
furtherance of political or social objectives.)
Who knew 30 yrs down the road I would be warning people of The "ministry"(cough!)I so would
have given my life for to serve.
I believe now this whole ball of wax was a system designed just like a terrorist designs a chemical
that can wipe out a target he desires.
In this case the target was young,mostly middle class, white, educated people,and the Jesus movement
at the time just gave it that extra bonus round.
It was a whole ball of wax allright...like collected ear wax so impacted in your brain we were deaf to
anything else!
Let him that has ears hear.
The hot zone is described as something as to when an infection that is highly toxic is running loose and has to be maintained in a structured enviroment,with masks and suits and gloves and shoes like when dealing with ebola virus(stuff the army at ft detrick do and center for disease control,)
i write this for people who are looking to get OUT of the danger of cult teachings,people that need help trying to get to the other side of WRONG TEACHING sometimes in healing we have to get untangled from scripture abuse and that can create a hot zone (FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT ALL)it is very very hard to say try to go to a church for some if that is what they want to do,the trust level is blown out of the water for some people it is life and death,you feel unworthy,you feel separated from God because the way told you this lie or another,still we have so much knowledge of truth,we just need to get rid of the lies and break that chains of way slavery bondage,
whether you are a christian,or whatever you wish to be,i really don't care how you get there just get there and be free. personally i had to go thru the bible to get that virus out of my head,poison out of my heart..i am not a church going person but,i needed help like seriously i was sick ,and if you are thier as most of us didn't and couldn't just walk away without injury,i was lucky '"BLESSED" to find KAY ARTHURS precept teachings and a person to help me at FT BRAGG N.C protestant women of the chapel,bible studies,it was like pulling teeth sometimes but just give things a chance if that is what your doing. I am very thankful to those people as my children are to have a parent because it could have like a virus deadly
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cheranne
This is from Sirguessalot(in behavioral science)
for what its worth…here is my quick ramble using some simple models…
According to many models of evolution, everything develops in a sequential manner, moving through stages, each structure building on a template of previous structures. Like going through preschool, kindergarten, 1st grade, 2nd grade, 3rd grade, etc... Stages cannot be skipped, though a greater cognitive reach may give better glimpses of other stages from “afar,” and any stage can be accessed as a temporary state (for any number of reasons, but typically causing as much confusion as good).
Now, as this pertains to the evolution of human understanding and behavior, these "grades" are like cultural and behavioral structures that spread more or less “memetically” and continue to evolve from there (even if this evolution happens within a stagnation or pathology…for example: where a “hitler structure” can simply get better and better at being and disseminating the improved “hitler structure”)
What we often call "religion" is usually referring to the "mythic membership" stage of evolution. This meme is typically marked by some sort of -theism, military patriarchies and sacred brotherhoods, agrarian lifestyles, ethnocentric values, textual fundamentalism...no matter what the language, skin color, historical timing, etc…
And though this is something humans already wrapped our mind around a few millenia back when we moved from egocentric to ethnocentric awareness and cultural arrangements, evolution happens in overlapping and lingering waves, it seems. And all the basic structures remain (probably because the primary elements of them are still necessary and useful)
And there is great value to the mythic stage of evolution, but also 1) all kinds of damage can be done there (perhaps manifest in a repression of that meme as one develops) 2) development can and does also simply stop there (giving us the hardened fundamentalists) 3) it can be suppressed and/or exploited by those of higher structures of consciousness 4) all kinds of other shyte, as usual
On a more microcosmic level, this 2nd stage of development is something we also individually develop in early-early childhood, when we learn about notions of “us and them.” And there are notions that we move (or not) through the stages, including them (or not) as we go, as parts of a new greater whole, while excluding our sole-identification with them. Even the body-to-soul-to-spirit sequence is valid in this regard, in a sense.
And to the rational minded "3rd grader," there are so many things that might look like more of the same ole "2nd grade religion", but which actually may be 4th grade and beyond (same texts and names used, perhaps, but way different understanding, intention and overall prime directives involved).
So, then what is the value of “religion” as mythic membership?
Compared to the more primal magic stages, i would say: better sex, better food, better clothes, better tools, better community, better survival rate, deeper friendships, a sense of safety, more children, more industrious and innovative (and all because we more or less agreed on the same mythic "other" God-father figure for this inherited exclusive family-ness). Without a few thousand years of this, “the brotherhood,” we would have never moved into our more rational era.
Also, though hopefully, the understanding of “diety” and “divine” may expand and change through rational stages and beyond, the notions of family and brotherhood and gathering into groups for some mythic far-off ideal should always remain valid and vital, even if they no longer dominate.
Of course, the 4th graders will not like my using any notion of grades at all, and the 3rd graders may like the grading, but might not like being given a grade without further proof, and the 2nd graders will refuse to believe that their family is not the highest grade, and the 1st grader could care less, they just want to know where the food is, or praise, or something entertaining, perhaps.
…so sorry if I offend or seem cruel…kinda hard to avoid with this subject…
Anyway, according to each of these basic "lower" memes, each of the other lower memes are simply wrong (and considered crazy). And the ongoing conflicts and relationships between the 4 most basic structures of consciousness are like the "four food groups" of the crucible of human development.
What I see happening now, are some sudden swells in the 1-2-3 level, even as half of the world has and is already leaning heavy heavy into the 3-4 level (this age of rational science and economics and political/cultural pluralism and leaps in communication ways and styles).
Another problem is, it seems, is most often, many of the “sacred texts” of the 2nd graders were often written by folks who were beyond even 4th grade, and their great wisdom and understanding is mostly off-limits to majority the population of the religion that clings blindly to it (often violently, as we have seen). Kinda how PFAL and VPs pseudo-science/pseudo-bible was rooted somewhere in the 2nd grade as he struggled to bring the 3rd grade down (to merge the mythical and rational worldviews). (Of course, we have also since learned that he spent a lot of time in 1st and 2nd grade…the booze and sex and vanity)).
Anyway, a few valuable questions I have heard along these lines are: How might we help elevate those of the mythic stage to rational without damaging or losing the textual and traditional wisdom they hold? And how might we restore the actual rational value of the texts to the rational minded?
for what its worth
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cheranne
\Yes your right Ham (perhaps)
The Culture of Cults
Summary
Religious organisations and movements are free to practice their religion as they choose, subject to the laws of the land. In practice, this means that cults, in promoting their religious beliefs and gaining adherents, are free to use deception, misrepresentation, psychological coercion or any other techniques which do not leave physical traces and are difficult to prove in a court of law.
Initially using conventional marketing techniques, cults promote their particular belief systems. The trick is that through influencing a person's beliefs, it is possible to influence or indirectly control a person's mind. The actual controlling of mind is done by the person themselves, as they attempt to train and discipline their mind in accordance with the tenets of their new belief system. It is the belief system itself which is the primary active agent in cult mind control.
Cult belief systems differ from conventional belief systems in a number of subtle but significant ways, which may not be apparent to an outsider. To understand the nature of these differences is to understand the nature of a cult.
Cult belief systems are typically:
Independent and non-accountable - believers follow their own self-justifying moral codes: e.g. a Moonie may, in their own mind, justify deceptive recruiting as 'deceiving evil into goodness'.
Aspirational - they appeal to ambitious, idealistic people. The assumption that only weak, gullible people join cults is not necessarily true.
Personal and experiential - it is not possible to exercise informed free choice in advance, about whether the belief system is valid or not, or about the benefits of following the study and training opportunities offered by the group. The benefits, if any, of group involvement can only be evaluated after a suitable period of time spent with the group. How long a suitable period of time might be, depends on the individual, and cannot be determined in advance.
Hierarchical and dualistic - cult belief systems revolve around ideas about higher and lower levels of understanding. There is a hierarchy of awareness, and a path from lower to higher levels. Believers tend to divide the world into the saved and the fallen, the awakened and the deluded, etc.
Bi-polar - believers experience alternating episodes of faith and doubt, confidence and anxiety, self-righteousness and guilt, depending how well or how badly they feel they are progressing along the path.
Addictive - believers may become intoxicated with the ideals of the belief system, and feel a vicarious pride in being associated with these ideals. Cults tend to be cliquey and elitist, and believers can become dependent on the approval of the group's elite to maintain their own self-esteem. At an extreme, believers fear they will fall into hell if they leave the group.
Psychologically damaging - when established members leave or are expelled, they may develop a particular kind of cult-induced mental disorder, marked by anxiety and difficulty in making decisions. The disorder exhibits similarities to (but is not identical to) post-traumatic stress disorder, and certain types of adjustment disorders. [iCD 10, F60.6, F66.1, etc.]
Non-falsifiable - a cult belief system can never be shown to be invalid or wrong. This is partly why critics have low credibility, and why it can be difficult to warn people of the dangers of a cult.
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Tzaia
kinda like high school
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RumRunner
Religion is not merely the opium of the masses, it's the cyanide. - Tom Robbins
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