Sometimes I think there is something to it.. the rewired brains that is.. though I wouldn't put everybody in that category. But I've met several, and closely followed and challenged their circle of "logic" in a complete loop..
I've seen some kind of burn out, blow a fuse of sorts..
Maybe it's a type of personality. It requires the "certainty" in life, that only circular reasoning can supposedly provide.
I think there very well may be something too that. I know that almost all children and some adults who have suffered a significant brain injury can regain a significant portion of function by patterning. This is where a therapist moves the limb through certain steps. It takes quite some time, but sure enough whatever has been patterned in this way can provoke an injured brain to perform that very same function.
So maybe it is possible to do the same thing with ideas.....more than just forming a habit....actually causing a change in the brain.
Visit this T.E.D. talk by former moonie & deprogrammer, Diane Benscoter, about how the human brain is changed by the circular logic, etc. of extreme dogmatic groups.
I think she may be right about how impenetrable circular logic can be, although for many of us who left TWI, for example, somehow we found a way to break through that firewall so it is not impossible to do. Critical thinking is the method of release, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, this topic is not new to many of you here, but her talk is concise. She has also written a memoir.
It's food for thought and debate.
T.E.D. is a site for "Ideas worth spreading" as it says.
Cheers!
Thanks for that info..finally people are understanding this!
On a similar note, I'm reading and researching on this right now where perception (thoughts) cause biological changes at the cell level. Bruce Lipton has some great thoughts on the concept.
I for one don't buy the "rewiring" theory any more than I do "brainwashing".
Why or how did we get caught in the circular reasoning loop?
1. Wierwille was an extremely good salesman
2. Most of us didn't know enough to ask the right questions
3. Many of us got to the point where we had so much invested that TWI was "too big (in our lives) to fail"
Those of us broke out of the circle did so for different reasons and by different methods, I would think that a "rewiring" or brainwashing would take more to break than it did for most ex-wayfers
I for one don't buy the "rewiring" theory any more than I do "brainwashing".
Why or how did we get caught in the circular reasoning loop?
1. Wierwille was an extremely good salesman
2. Most of us didn't know enough to ask the right questions
3. Many of us got to the point where we had so much invested that TWI was "too big (in our lives) to fail"
Those of us broke out of the circle did so for different reasons and by different methods, I would think that a "rewiring" or brainwashing would take more to break than it did for most ex-wayfers
I tend to agree with Oakspear...After spending 13 years in twi, including going wow and corps...when I left, I never looked back and was over it in ten minutes. I think every person is different and of course, some have had trouble with "adjusting their thinking". I believe that for awhile my thinking was heavily influenced by twi (Wierwille was a great con man)...but "rewiring" by brain?...never happened. I never let them get that deep inside me...but that's just me.
I also looked at the Susan Blackmore presentation.
It gives additional credence to the rewiring theory.
Just some thoughts:
I also viewed Susan Blackmore's talk and she surely has a point about immitating being powerful. But it is a theory. Theories are not written in stone. In a way I think she lends credence to the rewiring theory, but she also left me wondering how stedfast the effects of immitation really are since people change and thinking and believing are mysterious things, influenced by many forces.
I'm no professional on this topic, but it seems true that we are complex humans who have all sorts of ways to "weed out" some kinds of information and latch onto others that suit us at any given time; we don't always fit the theories. As we all seem to realize, each person is different and got into and out of twi for different reasons and often in vastly different circumstances.
A question that keeps haunting me is: if circular reasoning is so impenetrable, then how come so many of us broke out of it? Seems to me that it's not 100% impenetrable and it does NOT take coercion to break through it (deprogramming tactic) but sometimes it ain't easy...
So what does it take? For me, the system showed itself broken and I had to face the fact there were better ways of thinking and living that would help me...that's an understatement for those of you who wonder...
this all makes me think that maybe it's like hypnosis in that once it comes up against a person's very nature then it falls apart because even if nothing really bad happened to somebody in the way that left they still left because of something that smacked up against their very nature hard enough to make them go "hmmm".
this all makes me think that maybe it's like hypnosis in that once it comes up against a person's very nature then it falls apart because even if nothing really bad happened to somebody in the way that left they still left because of something that smacked up against their very nature hard enough to make them go "hmmm".
and i should maybe add often enough.
I was just reading the post"Weirwille,Jonestown " under subject Dissociation..very intresting hmmm!
A question that keeps haunting me is: if circular reasoning is so impenetrable, then how come so many of us broke out of it? Seems to me that it's not 100% impenetrable and it does NOT take coercion to break through it (deprogramming tactic) but sometimes it ain't easy...
So what does it take? For me, the system showed itself broken and I had to face the fact there were better ways of thinking and living that would help me...that's an understatement for those of you who wonder...
I guess for me it is also bit more complex. Breaking out. . . . . I had no problem leaving TWI of my own freewill. I heard some pretty graphic tapes of LCM spewing vile filth and it was like waking up. It then took years of life outside of TWI to chip off the remaining mindset. Some might even argue I have not completed the process because I am a Christian. However, it really is an entirely different faith and I think that is actually testimony to healing from that TWI frame of reference.
Even if some of us walk away . . . . how long can it take to rid ourselves of the beliefs and mindset? Years and years. . . . and even then behavior can still be influenced.
For those people who want a Christian faith. . . . it is difficult. . . . they can experience difficulty socializing with other Christians . . . . going to church. . . . and it is not all about being burned by TWI. . . I think it goes much deeper in many instances.
For me. . . that cult had a life-altering impact and I know it is because I learned so quickly and firmly to see things in that bizarre black and white world view. Hard to explain, but it has been a battle to come to terms with it. . . find a balance so I can again have faith in something. . . .
I guess for me it is also bit more complex. Breaking out. . . . . I had no problem leaving TWI of my own freewill. I heard some pretty graphic tapes of LCM spewing vile filth and it was like waking up. It then took years of life outside of TWI to chip off the remaining mindset. Some might even argue I have not completed the process because I am a Christian. However, it really is an entirely different faith and I think that is actually testimony to healing from that TWI frame of reference.
Even if some of us walk away . . . . how long can it take to rid ourselves of the beliefs and mindset? Years and years. . . . and even then behavior can still be influenced.
For those people who want a Christian faith. . . . it is difficult. . . . they can experience difficulty socializing with other Christians . . . . going to church. . . . and it is not all about being burned by TWI. . . I think it goes much deeper in many instances.
For me. . . that cult had a life-altering impact and I know it is because I learned so quickly and firmly to see things in that bizarre black and white world view. Hard to explain, but it has been a battle to come to terms with it. . . find a balance so I can again have faith in something. . . .
I agree maybe that is why we continue to even be on the subject of TWI. We all know what it is like to be out
but still in mind cage("hotel california")and I don't know about you guys but it really pains me too think of
others going through that(especially with no support group)or maybe they have a therapist but the therapist has No
A question that keeps haunting me is: if circular reasoning is so impenetrable, then how come so many of us broke out of it? Seems to me that it's not 100% impenetrable and it does NOT take coercion to break through it (deprogramming tactic) but sometimes it ain't easy...
I dunno. Maybe some of us were like "sleepers" or something..
I used to look at slides of nuerons making connections. Our thoughts are constantly rewiring the brain. I think if someone thinks they were "brianwashed" or whatever, they did it to themselves.
Perhaps. Or they voluntarily, or involuntarily put themselves and or were put in situations where maniacs could apply psychological conditioning. The techniques do work..
I have been out for about 25 years now and I still find myself with waybrain. For example, I have thought of hypnosis as a possible means to help overcome severe habits such as emotional eating or smoking. But, to this day, every time I think of hypnosis my mind goes back for a moment to the old thinking that it's devil spirit operated. Speaking of devil spirits, that's another thing. Much as I don't want to, I still find myself wondering sometimes if they really aren't out there trying to get me.
On another note, I went back to church for awhile a couple of years ago. Even though the folks there were lovely and nobody tried to coerce me, I still found myself dissecting the words & behaviors of my "unbeliever" associates outside the church, just like I did back in the Way. These "unbelievers" included my close friends and husband. Needless to say, when that started happening, I RAN RAN RAN away from church attendance as fast as my little legs would carry me and I haven't been back since.
I have been out for about 25 years now and I still find myself with waybrain.
Anything that affected your thinking and behavior as strongly as TWI did is going to stick with you on an at least subconscious level. I haven't been a practicing Catholic for over thirty years, but I still can recite several of the prayers from the Mass. I still want to respond to certain situations with the punchlines of jokes that I learned in high school. It's no surprise that patterns of thought learned in TWI will float to the surface.
Fascinating subject. Dr. Shaywitz, MD, is an expert in this area and has worked with kids with dyslexia for 30 yrs. and she says you can rewire the brain. I think she just means you can retrain the brain through a series of mental exercises.
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Ham
Sometimes I think there is something to it.. the rewired brains that is.. though I wouldn't put everybody in that category. But I've met several, and closely followed and challenged their circle of "logic" in a complete loop..
I've seen some kind of burn out, blow a fuse of sorts..
Maybe it's a type of personality. It requires the "certainty" in life, that only circular reasoning can supposedly provide.
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krys
I think there very well may be something too that. I know that almost all children and some adults who have suffered a significant brain injury can regain a significant portion of function by patterning. This is where a therapist moves the limb through certain steps. It takes quite some time, but sure enough whatever has been patterned in this way can provoke an injured brain to perform that very same function.
So maybe it is possible to do the same thing with ideas.....more than just forming a habit....actually causing a change in the brain.
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cheranne
Thanks for that info..finally people are understanding this!
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Tzaia
You are right, Penworks, very concise.
On a similar note, I'm reading and researching on this right now where perception (thoughts) cause biological changes at the cell level. Bruce Lipton has some great thoughts on the concept.
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Oakspear
I for one don't buy the "rewiring" theory any more than I do "brainwashing".
Why or how did we get caught in the circular reasoning loop?
1. Wierwille was an extremely good salesman
2. Most of us didn't know enough to ask the right questions
3. Many of us got to the point where we had so much invested that TWI was "too big (in our lives) to fail"
Those of us broke out of the circle did so for different reasons and by different methods, I would think that a "rewiring" or brainwashing would take more to break than it did for most ex-wayfers
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waysider
I also looked at the Susan Blackmore presentation.
It gives additional credence to the rewiring theory.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I tend to agree with Oakspear...After spending 13 years in twi, including going wow and corps...when I left, I never looked back and was over it in ten minutes. I think every person is different and of course, some have had trouble with "adjusting their thinking". I believe that for awhile my thinking was heavily influenced by twi (Wierwille was a great con man)...but "rewiring" by brain?...never happened. I never let them get that deep inside me...but that's just me.
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RumRunner
That's because you were already filled up with Owsley...
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cheranne
This is my take on it!
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwfSpZNc1zw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwfSpZNc1zw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwfSpZNc1zw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
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waysider
I guess everybody is different.
Here I am, almost 20 years after leaving and I am just now starting to really feel like I am over it.
I carried a lot of guilt for a lot of years over my decision to leave because I didn't know what had really happened.
I don't think I really "left" until I came here and got my eyes opened.
So, yeah, I think "rewiring" is a valid analogy in my case.
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penworks
Just some thoughts:
I also viewed Susan Blackmore's talk and she surely has a point about immitating being powerful. But it is a theory. Theories are not written in stone. In a way I think she lends credence to the rewiring theory, but she also left me wondering how stedfast the effects of immitation really are since people change and thinking and believing are mysterious things, influenced by many forces.
I'm no professional on this topic, but it seems true that we are complex humans who have all sorts of ways to "weed out" some kinds of information and latch onto others that suit us at any given time; we don't always fit the theories. As we all seem to realize, each person is different and got into and out of twi for different reasons and often in vastly different circumstances.
A question that keeps haunting me is: if circular reasoning is so impenetrable, then how come so many of us broke out of it? Seems to me that it's not 100% impenetrable and it does NOT take coercion to break through it (deprogramming tactic) but sometimes it ain't easy...
So what does it take? For me, the system showed itself broken and I had to face the fact there were better ways of thinking and living that would help me...that's an understatement for those of you who wonder...
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brainfixed
this all makes me think that maybe it's like hypnosis in that once it comes up against a person's very nature then it falls apart because even if nothing really bad happened to somebody in the way that left they still left because of something that smacked up against their very nature hard enough to make them go "hmmm".
and i should maybe add often enough.
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cheranne
I was just reading the post"Weirwille,Jonestown " under subject Dissociation..very intresting hmmm!
Edited by cheranneLink to comment
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geisha779
I guess for me it is also bit more complex. Breaking out. . . . . I had no problem leaving TWI of my own freewill. I heard some pretty graphic tapes of LCM spewing vile filth and it was like waking up. It then took years of life outside of TWI to chip off the remaining mindset. Some might even argue I have not completed the process because I am a Christian. However, it really is an entirely different faith and I think that is actually testimony to healing from that TWI frame of reference.
Even if some of us walk away . . . . how long can it take to rid ourselves of the beliefs and mindset? Years and years. . . . and even then behavior can still be influenced.
For those people who want a Christian faith. . . . it is difficult. . . . they can experience difficulty socializing with other Christians . . . . going to church. . . . and it is not all about being burned by TWI. . . I think it goes much deeper in many instances.
For me. . . that cult had a life-altering impact and I know it is because I learned so quickly and firmly to see things in that bizarre black and white world view. Hard to explain, but it has been a battle to come to terms with it. . . find a balance so I can again have faith in something. . . .
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cheranne
I agree maybe that is why we continue to even be on the subject of TWI. We all know what it is like to be out
but still in mind cage("hotel california")and I don't know about you guys but it really pains me too think of
others going through that(especially with no support group)or maybe they have a therapist but the therapist has No
Clue!
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Ham
I dunno. Maybe some of us were like "sleepers" or something..
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waysider
Maybe it's not truly "circular"
Perhaps it's really more of a "parabolic trajectory" that eventually reaches "escape velocity".
Parabolic trajectory
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Bolshevik
I used to look at slides of nuerons making connections. Our thoughts are constantly rewiring the brain. I think if someone thinks they were "brianwashed" or whatever, they did it to themselves.
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Ham
Perhaps. Or they voluntarily, or involuntarily put themselves and or were put in situations where maniacs could apply psychological conditioning. The techniques do work..
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nolongerlurking
I have been out for about 25 years now and I still find myself with waybrain. For example, I have thought of hypnosis as a possible means to help overcome severe habits such as emotional eating or smoking. But, to this day, every time I think of hypnosis my mind goes back for a moment to the old thinking that it's devil spirit operated. Speaking of devil spirits, that's another thing. Much as I don't want to, I still find myself wondering sometimes if they really aren't out there trying to get me.
On another note, I went back to church for awhile a couple of years ago. Even though the folks there were lovely and nobody tried to coerce me, I still found myself dissecting the words & behaviors of my "unbeliever" associates outside the church, just like I did back in the Way. These "unbelievers" included my close friends and husband. Needless to say, when that started happening, I RAN RAN RAN away from church attendance as fast as my little legs would carry me and I haven't been back since.
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Oakspear
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cheranne
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waterbuffalo
Fascinating subject. Dr. Shaywitz, MD, is an expert in this area and has worked with kids with dyslexia for 30 yrs. and she says you can rewire the brain. I think she just means you can retrain the brain through a series of mental exercises.
Rewiring the Brain
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cheranne
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