As a quick response on my part, everything you say seems sound to me. But looking back at River Road Fellowship and TWI for me brings to mind one quick response.
Liars and honest people handle those same scriptures and topics every day. TWI preached unity and practiced destroying those who insisted on thinking for themselves. They preached meekness but practiced highhandedness. They preached peace, but practiced warfare on people with clear consciences. etc. etc. etc.
So while I have to wholeheartedly agree with the gist of what you are saying, I practice caution when hearing folks that preach these things.
They preached peace, but practiced warfare on people with clear consciences. etc. etc. etc.
So while I have to wholeheartedly agree with the gist of what you are saying, I practice caution when hearing folks that preach these things.
PEACE,
JEFF
PEACE, JEFF? What do you man peace? I practice caution when I hear someone preach peace.
Just kidding - thanks for the quick response. Your caution is duly noted. I'm not starting a church - It's already been started, and it has unity spiritually - in the bond of peace. I'm just trying to KEEP the unity.
The peace you sent here returned to you with appreciation.
I posted my original post in several other places, and I’m seeing by the responses that I’m getting that I could have expressed myself better in certain areas. Not only that, but my vision is still being defined more clearly, so I’m very grateful for the responses I’m getting.
If I'm reading correctly the responses I'm getting, one area of concern is about our individuality.
1. What happened to my individuality as a member in particular in the Body of Christ?
2. I was taught that God works with us spiritually as individuals
If I’m reading these concerns/this concern correctly, they/it concern(s)our individuality in the Body of Christ and involve how God works with us as individuals as if they werwe one and the same. While related, these are two different things essentially.
RE: How God works with us as individuals: God works with us individually via the spirit in the light of our previous experiences and individual personalities, character, circumstances, etc. This is true, but this has nothing to do essentially with any individuality of the “spirits” God has given us as members in particular in the Body of Christ. God worked the same way with OT people who had the spirit, and they were not members in particular in the Body of Christ. That’s just God, the Master Communicator, working with people via the spirit.
RE: Our individuality in the Body of Christ: We were taught that we each received our own individual spirit when we were born again, and that it is now our spirit. LCM took that further and said that each spirit received by each individual believer in the Body was particularly suited to that person’s make-up. I don’t believe that logic of LCM is correct, and I don’t think that the logic of VPW that LCM based his conclusions on is correct either.
I’m not saying that there is no spirit to be received, just that there is only one Spirit into which we are all made to drink. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
The Body of Christ was baptized into the promise of the Father once. As members in particular in that body, we drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye [this is plural] the Spirit [not your spirits] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit [not your spirits], are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 6:18 Brethren [plural], the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit [not your spirits]. Amen.
I know that because of previous teaching in TWI, our minds tend look at all the plurals I’ve added to the verses above and think, “Well, yeah, that sounds ridiculous when you say it like that, but that doesn’t mean – enter the curtain of previous teaching. Then, we might say, well surely there must be some kind of English grammar explanation for the confusion of singulars and plurals in all those verses (and all the others like them – a figure of speech maybe).
I’m sure I could come up with some kind of English grammar rationale for mixing singulars and plurals – generally a firm grammar no no - but why not just accept that God said what He meant – there is one spirit.
So, if you have the spirit, & I have the spirit, and there is only one spirit, what the heck does that mean, & where then is my individuality in the ONE Body?
Well, first, what does it mean that you have the spirit, & I have the spirit, and there is only one spirit?
Picture this (please give me some space here; we’re talking about spirit which we can’t perceive by the 5 senses. Also, I don’t see how it all fits, & I’m somewhat shooting from the hip as I try to see more of what hits the target – besides, it’s an analogy – it doesn’t work all the way through; it’s just designed to get one point across), you and Jesus Christ in a room. Unfortunately, you’re blind. You can’t see him. You believe Jesus was one with the Father. You know he prayed that you would be one with the Father even as he was/is one with the Father. But, being blind, you can’t see that. You’re waiting. You know Jesus promised the Comforter that would reveal all things concerning Jesus Christ to you, but being blind, you can’t see that.
Meanwhile, unbeknownst to you, Jesus receives the promise of the Father, The Comforter, The Spirit that will reveal. He’s all jacked up; you’re waiting. He extends The Spirit forth to you. It doesn’t leave him, a particle of The Spirit, now A spirit, entering into you. It extends out from him. It stays with him. It just extends out from him and enters you. Now, via The Spirit, the one spirit you are sharing with Jesus Christ, the Comforter, you see him. You’re not blind anymore. You’re connected to Jesus via The Spirit, the one spirit in which you both reside. Now, you’re jacked up like Jesus is. He is sending you as much as you can handle, enabling you to be one with God & Jesus, just like they are one with one another.
Now, I enter the room. I’m blind; I don’t see what’s going on. You ask me what I’m doing. I tell you I’m waiting. You tell me I don’t have to wait anymore. I say, Word? You say Word, & tell me what’s going on. I believe your words. At the moment I believe your words about The Word, the one spirit, that is now encompassing both you and Jesus and in you both extends out to me and enters me. Now, via the one spirit, I see both you and Jesus for what you really are spiritually as one with each other and with God through Jesus – as Jesus is now sending me as much as I can handle, enabling me to be one with God & Jesus (like he is with you) just like they are with one another . Wow, I love you. I love Jesus. I love God. I’m as totally jacked into what’s happening as I can be at that moment.
I invite my friends, and the process keeps repeating itself until we have all these people all tied it together to Christ via the same spirit. We are the Body of Christ with God in Christ in us via the spirit – the same spirit – one Body, one Spirit – Jesus sending us all as much as we can handle via the one spirit about this whole oneness thing.
Second, where is our individuality in this ONE Body? Like every spiritual input in the One Body, It comes from the head of the body, Christ, not through any individual differences in the “spirits” in us, for there is One Spirit, but from the one heading all this up, Christ. Receiving his input directly from him via the one spirit – and from one another when we are gathered in his name (him then being among us via the one spirit in manifestation) – we all grow up into him who is the head, even Christ – the manifestation of the one spirit being unique in member in particular, each with our own longsuits and functions – the joints and bands of the Body ministering in love all proceeding from the head - in the one spirit.
I hope that helps – please let me know. I think I’ll stop here for now. Here a little, there a little. I hope if you're here, I'll see you there for a little more.
Any number multiplied by one is the number as it is an identity for multiplication. As a result, one is its own factorial, its own square, its own cube and so on. One is also the empty product as any number multiplied by one is itself, which is the same as multiplying by no numbers at all.
I just hope that in the reality of your church it all plays out with a living relationship to the Lord and the type of love, mercy, and truth that is real and tangible for every member.
Perhaps unfortunately I have seen it turn very ugly in spite of being preached things that I liked hearing and agreed with. But even in my very first post I expressed a willingness to try to turn the experience to good. What the heck else can a guy do!?
I came to the same conclusion as well, regarding God's Holy Spirit as opposed to each of us having "our own" holy spirit. I think that old teaching was (at least partly) based on the wrong teaching about man having been body, soul, and spirit and then losing spirit so he needed to get it back. I started a thread about this a while back, unfortunately it turned into a debate about the trinity. You may still find parts of it interesting.
It seems this has developed into a 3 part series. Parts 1 & 2 are above. Here is 3.
The spirit as dorea is what gives each one of us uniqueness as we mature within the body of Christ. When we receive the holy spirit, it is called charisma. When we grow to the point where the gift of the holy spirit is energized to benefit the recipient, it is called dorea - that energizing of the spirit to benefit the recipient is what makes you and I as individuals unique in the Body of Christ - members in particular.
Right after God’s perfect Word says Ephesians 4:4a There is one body, and one Spirit, right after that wonderful litany of “one,” through verse 6, It is not going to go on in the very next verse 7 to say that there are many spirits. And it doesn’t say many gifts either for there is one gift of holy spirit given to the church.
Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the [singular] gift [dorea: the gift benefitting the individual recipient – still one gift of holy spirit given to the church on Pentecost, but now that gift is benefitting an individual recipient of the one spirit in the one Body] of Christ.
Unity does not negate diversity of the members of the body.
1Cor 12:18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
There is no membership APART from the One Body. That’s what it means to be a member.
As to the defining of our uniqueness in the One Body – how do we grow into that uniqueness?
Ephesians 1:22b – 23a [God] gave him [Jesus Christ] to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body.
“All things,” our uniqueness in the One Body is a spiritual matter, so Jesus Christ must be head (the person in charge) of that process – y’know, being Lord & all. Obviously, there are two people involved, Jesus, the one in charge of the process and me, the one whose unique membership in the One Body Jesus is defining. Likewise, therefore, there are two aspects to this process, 1. My personality, my previous experiences, everything that is ABOUT me, & 2. My unique functioning, via the spirit, as a member in particular in the One Body.
As to my personality, my previous experiences, everything that is ABOUT me: God deals with each of us via the spirit in the light of our previous experiences. This is not particular to the Body of Christ. God dealt with people in the OT this same way.
I said as much previously in this discussion; however, there is an added aspect to this in the Body of Christ. In the Body of Christ, we are dealing with the one who can be touched with the feeling of our infirmity, the one who is able to save us (make us whole to the uttermost). All language is imperfect, yet God refines his words - Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Likewise, our past experiences are all imperfect communications to us of life. When God deals with us in the light of our experience, his communications are pure. He purifies our experiences. He purifies us in the fire of the spirit. Anything left unpurified gets burned away at the Bema because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. All ABOUT us that has been purified is our uniqueness in the Body of Christ, now – and we are rewarded for that at the Bema.
As to my unique functioning, via the spirit, as a member in particular in the One Body, and your unique functioning, via the spirit, as members in particular in the Body of Christ: I’m really sorry guys, but much of that is above me at this point – and I promised this would be the short version.
But I know this much. There is no membership APART from the One Body. I am not complete in Christ. WE are. I am not as he is in this world. As he is so are WE in this world. Not only is there unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all, there is also one new man.
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
And that one new man that we are to put on is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.
We are supposed to experience our membership in particular in the one new man in this life.
There is yet much to be learned and experienced in this life about our unique identity in the One Body. I’m just starting out; I’m sorry I can’t say more.
But I can say this. I’m stoked. I’ve never been so thrilled by the Word or the spiritual input of Jesus Christ in my life.
There is yet one clear MAJOR impediment to this input placed in way of God’s energizing by previous TWI teaching that I would like to take out of the way.
I read what you posted and thought overall it was very good. If you wrote that, and I have no reason to believe that you did not, and would like to post this teaching on my web site, then I would post your article with your name as the author and with copy right notice in your name.
I would put your teaching for now third on the list of teachings right after the teachings on the Lordship of Jesus Christ and 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Your writing would make a very good contribution and is the kind of written teaching that I seek.
I read what you posted and thought overall it was very good. If you wrote that, and I have no reason to believe that you did not, and would like to post this teaching on my web site, then I would post your article with your name as the author and with copy right notice in your name.
I would put your teaching for now third on the list of teachings right after the teachings on the Lordship of Jesus Christ and 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Your writing would make a very good contribution and is the kind of written teaching that I seek.
Mark, thank you for the gracious invitation. I just got in from Portland, OR, via LA & Orlando. So, not tonight, but tomorrow or the next day, I'll get back to you. Your website appears (to me) to promise exceptional quality with regard to truth, but I've put off reading the articles. Why? My next article (There is yet one clear MAJOR impediment to this input placed in way of God’s energizing by previous TWI teaching that I would like to take out of the way) deals with 1 Cor. 12 as does one of your articles. I'd rather finish my article before reading yours.
Good to hear from you. When we both get time we can exchange e-mail addresses. Sounds like you are in the process of doing a very good biblical research and teaching project. I definitely like your work so far. Keep up the good work bro.
I read what you posted and thought overall it was very good. If you wrote that, and I have no reason to believe that you did not, and would like to post this teaching on my web site, then I would post your article with your name as the author and with copy right notice in your name.
I would put your teaching for now third on the list of teachings right after the teachings on the Lordship of Jesus Christ and 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Your writing would make a very good contribution and is the kind of written teaching that I seek.
Thank you Mark. Your website seems to be a well presented exposition of various essential truths from the Word. I will be honored to contribute although all of what I have written is very first rough draft, the essential truth of which I'm convinced of because of overwhelming verificaion I see in the Word, but the detailed exposition of which I feel needs a lot of refining.
With that in mind, please feel free to use what you think will contribute. I've never had anything copywrited online or anywhere else, but please do that & let me know what that means to me & what I've written.
So far, this investigation into shall I say the One Spirit has developed into a 3 part series. What I'm about to post here is, I don't know, maybe a part 4, or maybe more properly an addendum.
Although addendums are usually added onto a publication at the end, this might have helped ExTWI understand all the preceding and so may have been better put at the beginning - for the benefit of ExTwi.
For whatever benefit, here it is:
We’ve been talking about (Part 3) our uniqueness as members in the Body of Christ – the particular nature of our membership, and the process involved in the development of that uniqueness.
That Part 3 post had these two things to say at the end:
“There is no membership APART from the One Body.”
and
“There is yet one clear MAJOR impediment to this input placed in the way of God’s energizing by previous TWI teaching that I would like to take out of the way.”
Jesus’ job description in this process is clear. He is in charge. What does that mean? I reasonably can figure that I’ll learn more of what it means to have him in charge as I engage in the process. But that much is crystal. He is in charge.
But what about me? What am I supposed to do? Let him be in charge. I have to let him be in charge if I want to grow into my unique membership in the One Body. That much is crystal.
As to letting Jesus be Lord, there is a significant word in 1 Cor. 12:3b, *** no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. This exclusively identifies saying that “Jesus is the Lord” as a spiritual matter – a fundamentally important and crucial spiritual matter. That’s why the statement is in 1 Cor. 12 that starts out, “Now concerning spiritual matters, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.”
The “one clear MAJOR impediment” to God’s spiritual input into our lives that I refer to above has to do with who or what energizes the spiritual input into our lives.
Do we?
Does a spirit within?
Does the spirit within – or without?
Does God?
Does Jesus Christ?
1 Corinthians 12:6 says, “And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.”
The words “operations” and “worketh” are forms of the same Greek root from which we get the words energy and energize. The word diversities is the Greek word diaresis meaning appointments.
Clearly all the energizings of all the spiritual matters in all of us (that verse 1 says Paul would not have us ignorant of) are energized by God via his choice or option.
For all you ExTWI, I think VP did a rather creditable job of exposition, IN PART, on this truth that God chooses and energizes every energizing of the spirit in all of us. So much so that he points out that in verse 11, “But all these worketh [that same word energizes] that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will” that “one and the selfsame” Spirit is “a unique triple reflexive emphasizing one, self, and same - & dividing is that word choosing. In triplicate, God is doing the choosing and the energizing of every energizing (operating) of the spirit is God’s prerogative.
The big problem with that is although VP points out in this section of RTHST that God operates (energizes) all the energizings at his option, he ends it by saying that we operate.
I could show where VP, like Eve, subtracts a word from the Word, adds a word to the Word, & ends up changing the Word to its exact opposite, but you can do the same by a close inspection of that section in RTHST should you care to do so. I did point out Eve’s process with regard to Matt’s “exposition” of why God gave each of us an individually unique gift of holy spirit, but Matt declined to answer that from a biblical point of view. It is pertinent to note that both Matt & VP needed to insert the factor of an individual spirit (an addition to the Word) to justify their theology.
Obviously, that’s the exact opposite of what the Word says. The Word says God operates (energizes); VP says we operate. In the midst of VP’s duplication of Eve’s process, VP says the spirit within us energizes. From there he uses the analogy of a car battery. God has now been reduced to a car battery that WE operate. I know that analogies connect to truth in only 1 or 2 points, but there is such a thing as lame analogies. This is a lame analogy if there ever was one.
Proverbs 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
The legs upon which this analogy rests are not equal. A major point in the analogy, God who energizes all spiritual matters, has been reduced to a battery that WE now operate at our will.
What can I say except LAME.
This idea that we operate the spirit at our own will was carried out to the point that all the definitions of the manifestations of the spirit (BTW, VP pointed out that there is only The Manifestation of The Spirit, not nine manifestations, but he continued to use the terminology that he already stated was erroneous – sloppy and fraught with error increasing) were preceded with these words:
The manifestation of *** is your operation of the God-given ability whereby you may receive from God by His revealing it to you.
Many words, no?
For those of you who have run that through your brains until it made sense, that makes sense.
For those of you who have never heard that, or never run it through enough (anything run through the cranium enough makes sense), your response may be WTF.
Either way, that’s a lot or words. Not to be found in the Word, surely something so basic to the children of God doesn’t need to be so hard to be entreated (Matt’s proclivity to hard to entreat posts notwithstanding). The 1st century believers certainly didn’t seem to need such theology.
So, how did the 1st century believers operate the spirit so effectively (sorry, they didn’t operate the spirit), how did they manifest all 9 (sorry, there aren’t 9 manifestations), how did they with great power give witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, great grace being upon them all?
Now, that’s a good question. Back to the basics of I Cor. 12, verse 11b says, “[the Spirit was] dividing to every man severally as he will.
“As he [the man] will.” All we are ever to do is believe God.
E.W. Bullinger had something pertinent to say here:
“Man MUST BELIEVE GOD in what He says in His Word; and he must believe ALL that God says.
In what sharp contrast does this set all that goes to make up RELIGION! Religion occupies man entirely with himself; with what he das DONE, with what he CAN do, and with what he must DO. God would occupy man with HIMSELF, and with what He has SAID.
This it is which gives its character to all “religion” in the present day; “Man’s Day.” Man is exalted, and God set aside. Man’s doings are substituted for man’s believing. This is why, on all hands, mans WORkS are substituted for God’s words. And as the importance of man’s works increases in his estimation, so God’s Word decreases.”
Of course, one may say that Bullinger didn’t understand the field of the spirit to the degree that we do, but to that I say that the foundational truths may never be correctly departed from, only built upon.
Who gets the glory?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works[same word for energizings], lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works [same word for energizings – in this case God’s option and God’s energizing], which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
God is energizing. We should walk in those energizings.
Ever realize after the fact that God had been working in your heart to will and to do of his good pleasure, even though, at the time it was happening, you weren’t aware of it? God was energizing at his option, realizing your believing heart even when you weren’t aware of it – that’s how he can do above what you can ask or think according to the power that works (God’s working) in you.
If you are aware of God’s energizing within, so much the better; you are walking by the spirit in an immediate sense, but you are still playing catch up. God is energizing; you are following his energizing. Even if your following is inspired in the sense of in breathing – you speak and act in immediate synch with God’s leading, you are still acting as Jesus said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.”
Isn’t that so cool? God energizes first, so you can carry the energy (energize) the act to completion.
No one’s free will is messed with. God has so set up spiritual things that we (God & I, or God & us, we all being in concert as Jesus prayed) would all be one with him and God the way that he was/is one with God.
The difference?
In the TWI model, God has already moved; all waits on human slugs to operate.
In the Word, the manifestation of the spirit is (present tense) being given to all – God is operating.
Attend to your believing self in whom God is operating.
I just reread the above article that I wrote after reading what you wrote here. I think your explanation of ONE spirit is very complimentary to this. I definitely explained this concept, because one spirit is written a few time in chapter 12. However your explanation of one spirit goes into more detail on this. Your explanation is very good. Yes, I understand that when we write we need time to refine so that people can understand what we write with ease of clarity. This takes time. When I wrote my article I must have refined it at lease 7 times. I also had about 5 other people read it while I was writing it to help with the refinement process and give me feed back and contribute with additional understanding. I like and see the importance in working with other knowledgeable people and want to work with you. I can see we would work well together. The only question that both of us needs to answer is how much time do we have to devote to this? Frankly, I wish there were 4 of me. One to do my manufacturing and screen printing business. Another to work real estate. I am a California licensed real estate broker. Another to do web site design. I am currently a student of this with a knowledge of HTML, Cascading style sheets, Dreamweaver, Flash and ActionScript. A fourth one of me to do biblical articles.
I am going to send you my e-mail address in a PM. Have a good day Tom.
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JeffSjo
Dear Tom,
As a quick response on my part, everything you say seems sound to me. But looking back at River Road Fellowship and TWI for me brings to mind one quick response.
Liars and honest people handle those same scriptures and topics every day. TWI preached unity and practiced destroying those who insisted on thinking for themselves. They preached meekness but practiced highhandedness. They preached peace, but practiced warfare on people with clear consciences. etc. etc. etc.
So while I have to wholeheartedly agree with the gist of what you are saying, I practice caution when hearing folks that preach these things.
PEACE,
JEFF
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Tom
PEACE, JEFF? What do you man peace? I practice caution when I hear someone preach peace.
Just kidding - thanks for the quick response. Your caution is duly noted. I'm not starting a church - It's already been started, and it has unity spiritually - in the bond of peace. I'm just trying to KEEP the unity.
The peace you sent here returned to you with appreciation.
Tom
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JeffSjo
Dear Tom,
I'm happy that it is working for you!
JEFF
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TrustAndObey
Tom,
The spirit's been showing me the same thing this past year.. And I haven't found anything to prove otherwise..
One spirit.. GOD's Spirit. And ONE man, THE NEW MAN, not my new man, and your new man.. ONE "NEW" MAN, CHRIST, HIS BODY..
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waysider
Let this moment last forever
Yes, it must.
And let each passing one seem like our very last
Let's pretend tomorrow's just a dream
For we will all be one again.
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Tom
I appreciate the replies. Thank you.
I posted my original post in several other places, and I’m seeing by the responses that I’m getting that I could have expressed myself better in certain areas. Not only that, but my vision is still being defined more clearly, so I’m very grateful for the responses I’m getting.
If I'm reading correctly the responses I'm getting, one area of concern is about our individuality.
1. What happened to my individuality as a member in particular in the Body of Christ?
2. I was taught that God works with us spiritually as individuals
If I’m reading these concerns/this concern correctly, they/it concern(s)our individuality in the Body of Christ and involve how God works with us as individuals as if they werwe one and the same. While related, these are two different things essentially.
RE: How God works with us as individuals: God works with us individually via the spirit in the light of our previous experiences and individual personalities, character, circumstances, etc. This is true, but this has nothing to do essentially with any individuality of the “spirits” God has given us as members in particular in the Body of Christ. God worked the same way with OT people who had the spirit, and they were not members in particular in the Body of Christ. That’s just God, the Master Communicator, working with people via the spirit.
RE: Our individuality in the Body of Christ: We were taught that we each received our own individual spirit when we were born again, and that it is now our spirit. LCM took that further and said that each spirit received by each individual believer in the Body was particularly suited to that person’s make-up. I don’t believe that logic of LCM is correct, and I don’t think that the logic of VPW that LCM based his conclusions on is correct either.
I’m not saying that there is no spirit to be received, just that there is only one Spirit into which we are all made to drink. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
The Body of Christ was baptized into the promise of the Father once. As members in particular in that body, we drink into one Spirit.
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye [this is plural] the Spirit [not your spirits] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit [not your spirits], are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 6:18 Brethren [plural], the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit [not your spirits]. Amen.
I know that because of previous teaching in TWI, our minds tend look at all the plurals I’ve added to the verses above and think, “Well, yeah, that sounds ridiculous when you say it like that, but that doesn’t mean – enter the curtain of previous teaching. Then, we might say, well surely there must be some kind of English grammar explanation for the confusion of singulars and plurals in all those verses (and all the others like them – a figure of speech maybe).
I’m sure I could come up with some kind of English grammar rationale for mixing singulars and plurals – generally a firm grammar no no - but why not just accept that God said what He meant – there is one spirit.
So, if you have the spirit, & I have the spirit, and there is only one spirit, what the heck does that mean, & where then is my individuality in the ONE Body?
Well, first, what does it mean that you have the spirit, & I have the spirit, and there is only one spirit?
Picture this (please give me some space here; we’re talking about spirit which we can’t perceive by the 5 senses. Also, I don’t see how it all fits, & I’m somewhat shooting from the hip as I try to see more of what hits the target – besides, it’s an analogy – it doesn’t work all the way through; it’s just designed to get one point across), you and Jesus Christ in a room. Unfortunately, you’re blind. You can’t see him. You believe Jesus was one with the Father. You know he prayed that you would be one with the Father even as he was/is one with the Father. But, being blind, you can’t see that. You’re waiting. You know Jesus promised the Comforter that would reveal all things concerning Jesus Christ to you, but being blind, you can’t see that.
Meanwhile, unbeknownst to you, Jesus receives the promise of the Father, The Comforter, The Spirit that will reveal. He’s all jacked up; you’re waiting. He extends The Spirit forth to you. It doesn’t leave him, a particle of The Spirit, now A spirit, entering into you. It extends out from him. It stays with him. It just extends out from him and enters you. Now, via The Spirit, the one spirit you are sharing with Jesus Christ, the Comforter, you see him. You’re not blind anymore. You’re connected to Jesus via The Spirit, the one spirit in which you both reside. Now, you’re jacked up like Jesus is. He is sending you as much as you can handle, enabling you to be one with God & Jesus, just like they are one with one another.
Now, I enter the room. I’m blind; I don’t see what’s going on. You ask me what I’m doing. I tell you I’m waiting. You tell me I don’t have to wait anymore. I say, Word? You say Word, & tell me what’s going on. I believe your words. At the moment I believe your words about The Word, the one spirit, that is now encompassing both you and Jesus and in you both extends out to me and enters me. Now, via the one spirit, I see both you and Jesus for what you really are spiritually as one with each other and with God through Jesus – as Jesus is now sending me as much as I can handle, enabling me to be one with God & Jesus (like he is with you) just like they are with one another . Wow, I love you. I love Jesus. I love God. I’m as totally jacked into what’s happening as I can be at that moment.
I invite my friends, and the process keeps repeating itself until we have all these people all tied it together to Christ via the same spirit. We are the Body of Christ with God in Christ in us via the spirit – the same spirit – one Body, one Spirit – Jesus sending us all as much as we can handle via the one spirit about this whole oneness thing.
Second, where is our individuality in this ONE Body? Like every spiritual input in the One Body, It comes from the head of the body, Christ, not through any individual differences in the “spirits” in us, for there is One Spirit, but from the one heading all this up, Christ. Receiving his input directly from him via the one spirit – and from one another when we are gathered in his name (him then being among us via the one spirit in manifestation) – we all grow up into him who is the head, even Christ – the manifestation of the one spirit being unique in member in particular, each with our own longsuits and functions – the joints and bands of the Body ministering in love all proceeding from the head - in the one spirit.
I hope that helps – please let me know. I think I’ll stop here for now. Here a little, there a little. I hope if you're here, I'll see you there for a little more.
Growing into him with you,
Tom
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cman
Any number multiplied by one is the number as it is an identity for multiplication. As a result, one is its own factorial, its own square, its own cube and so on. One is also the empty product as any number multiplied by one is itself, which is the same as multiplying by no numbers at all.
from Wikipedia
-
be fruitful and multiply
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JeffSjo
I like what I read Tom.
I just hope that in the reality of your church it all plays out with a living relationship to the Lord and the type of love, mercy, and truth that is real and tangible for every member.
Perhaps unfortunately I have seen it turn very ugly in spite of being preached things that I liked hearing and agreed with. But even in my very first post I expressed a willingness to try to turn the experience to good. What the heck else can a guy do!?
Dear Cman,
Hardiharhar, Mr. jokey jokemeister.
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Mark Clarke
Tom,
I came to the same conclusion as well, regarding God's Holy Spirit as opposed to each of us having "our own" holy spirit. I think that old teaching was (at least partly) based on the wrong teaching about man having been body, soul, and spirit and then losing spirit so he needed to get it back. I started a thread about this a while back, unfortunately it turned into a debate about the trinity. You may still find parts of it interesting.
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cman
the minding of one, partly...
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Tom
It seems this has developed into a 3 part series. Parts 1 & 2 are above. Here is 3.
The spirit as dorea is what gives each one of us uniqueness as we mature within the body of Christ. When we receive the holy spirit, it is called charisma. When we grow to the point where the gift of the holy spirit is energized to benefit the recipient, it is called dorea - that energizing of the spirit to benefit the recipient is what makes you and I as individuals unique in the Body of Christ - members in particular.
Right after God’s perfect Word says Ephesians 4:4a There is one body, and one Spirit, right after that wonderful litany of “one,” through verse 6, It is not going to go on in the very next verse 7 to say that there are many spirits. And it doesn’t say many gifts either for there is one gift of holy spirit given to the church.
Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the [singular] gift [dorea: the gift benefitting the individual recipient – still one gift of holy spirit given to the church on Pentecost, but now that gift is benefitting an individual recipient of the one spirit in the one Body] of Christ.
Unity does not negate diversity of the members of the body.
1Cor 12:18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
There is no membership APART from the One Body. That’s what it means to be a member.
As to the defining of our uniqueness in the One Body – how do we grow into that uniqueness?
Ephesians 1:22b – 23a [God] gave him [Jesus Christ] to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body.
“All things,” our uniqueness in the One Body is a spiritual matter, so Jesus Christ must be head (the person in charge) of that process – y’know, being Lord & all. Obviously, there are two people involved, Jesus, the one in charge of the process and me, the one whose unique membership in the One Body Jesus is defining. Likewise, therefore, there are two aspects to this process, 1. My personality, my previous experiences, everything that is ABOUT me, & 2. My unique functioning, via the spirit, as a member in particular in the One Body.
As to my personality, my previous experiences, everything that is ABOUT me: God deals with each of us via the spirit in the light of our previous experiences. This is not particular to the Body of Christ. God dealt with people in the OT this same way.
I said as much previously in this discussion; however, there is an added aspect to this in the Body of Christ. In the Body of Christ, we are dealing with the one who can be touched with the feeling of our infirmity, the one who is able to save us (make us whole to the uttermost). All language is imperfect, yet God refines his words - Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Likewise, our past experiences are all imperfect communications to us of life. When God deals with us in the light of our experience, his communications are pure. He purifies our experiences. He purifies us in the fire of the spirit. Anything left unpurified gets burned away at the Bema because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. All ABOUT us that has been purified is our uniqueness in the Body of Christ, now – and we are rewarded for that at the Bema.
As to my unique functioning, via the spirit, as a member in particular in the One Body, and your unique functioning, via the spirit, as members in particular in the Body of Christ: I’m really sorry guys, but much of that is above me at this point – and I promised this would be the short version.
But I know this much. There is no membership APART from the One Body. I am not complete in Christ. WE are. I am not as he is in this world. As he is so are WE in this world. Not only is there unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all, there is also one new man.
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
And that one new man that we are to put on is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.
We are supposed to experience our membership in particular in the one new man in this life.
There is yet much to be learned and experienced in this life about our unique identity in the One Body. I’m just starting out; I’m sorry I can’t say more.
But I can say this. I’m stoked. I’ve never been so thrilled by the Word or the spiritual input of Jesus Christ in my life.
There is yet one clear MAJOR impediment to this input placed in way of God’s energizing by previous TWI teaching that I would like to take out of the way.
Later & love,
Tom
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi Tom:
I read what you posted and thought overall it was very good. If you wrote that, and I have no reason to believe that you did not, and would like to post this teaching on my web site, then I would post your article with your name as the author and with copy right notice in your name.
My web site is as follows:
http://www.christianherald.info
I would put your teaching for now third on the list of teachings right after the teachings on the Lordship of Jesus Christ and 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Your writing would make a very good contribution and is the kind of written teaching that I seek.
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Tom
Mark, thank you for the gracious invitation. I just got in from Portland, OR, via LA & Orlando. So, not tonight, but tomorrow or the next day, I'll get back to you. Your website appears (to me) to promise exceptional quality with regard to truth, but I've put off reading the articles. Why? My next article (There is yet one clear MAJOR impediment to this input placed in way of God’s energizing by previous TWI teaching that I would like to take out of the way) deals with 1 Cor. 12 as does one of your articles. I'd rather finish my article before reading yours.
Soon,
Tom
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi Tom:
Good to hear from you. When we both get time we can exchange e-mail addresses. Sounds like you are in the process of doing a very good biblical research and teaching project. I definitely like your work so far. Keep up the good work bro.
Regards,
Mark
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Tom
Thank you Mark. Your website seems to be a well presented exposition of various essential truths from the Word. I will be honored to contribute although all of what I have written is very first rough draft, the essential truth of which I'm convinced of because of overwhelming verificaion I see in the Word, but the detailed exposition of which I feel needs a lot of refining.
With that in mind, please feel free to use what you think will contribute. I've never had anything copywrited online or anywhere else, but please do that & let me know what that means to me & what I've written.
So far, this investigation into shall I say the One Spirit has developed into a 3 part series. What I'm about to post here is, I don't know, maybe a part 4, or maybe more properly an addendum.
Although addendums are usually added onto a publication at the end, this might have helped ExTWI understand all the preceding and so may have been better put at the beginning - for the benefit of ExTwi.
For whatever benefit, here it is:
We’ve been talking about (Part 3) our uniqueness as members in the Body of Christ – the particular nature of our membership, and the process involved in the development of that uniqueness.
That Part 3 post had these two things to say at the end:
“There is no membership APART from the One Body.”
and
“There is yet one clear MAJOR impediment to this input placed in the way of God’s energizing by previous TWI teaching that I would like to take out of the way.”
Jesus’ job description in this process is clear. He is in charge. What does that mean? I reasonably can figure that I’ll learn more of what it means to have him in charge as I engage in the process. But that much is crystal. He is in charge.
But what about me? What am I supposed to do? Let him be in charge. I have to let him be in charge if I want to grow into my unique membership in the One Body. That much is crystal.
As to letting Jesus be Lord, there is a significant word in 1 Cor. 12:3b, *** no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. This exclusively identifies saying that “Jesus is the Lord” as a spiritual matter – a fundamentally important and crucial spiritual matter. That’s why the statement is in 1 Cor. 12 that starts out, “Now concerning spiritual matters, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.”
The “one clear MAJOR impediment” to God’s spiritual input into our lives that I refer to above has to do with who or what energizes the spiritual input into our lives.
Do we?
Does a spirit within?
Does the spirit within – or without?
Does God?
Does Jesus Christ?
1 Corinthians 12:6 says, “And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.”
The words “operations” and “worketh” are forms of the same Greek root from which we get the words energy and energize. The word diversities is the Greek word diaresis meaning appointments.
Clearly all the energizings of all the spiritual matters in all of us (that verse 1 says Paul would not have us ignorant of) are energized by God via his choice or option.
For all you ExTWI, I think VP did a rather creditable job of exposition, IN PART, on this truth that God chooses and energizes every energizing of the spirit in all of us. So much so that he points out that in verse 11, “But all these worketh [that same word energizes] that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will” that “one and the selfsame” Spirit is “a unique triple reflexive emphasizing one, self, and same - & dividing is that word choosing. In triplicate, God is doing the choosing and the energizing of every energizing (operating) of the spirit is God’s prerogative.
The big problem with that is although VP points out in this section of RTHST that God operates (energizes) all the energizings at his option, he ends it by saying that we operate.
I could show where VP, like Eve, subtracts a word from the Word, adds a word to the Word, & ends up changing the Word to its exact opposite, but you can do the same by a close inspection of that section in RTHST should you care to do so. I did point out Eve’s process with regard to Matt’s “exposition” of why God gave each of us an individually unique gift of holy spirit, but Matt declined to answer that from a biblical point of view. It is pertinent to note that both Matt & VP needed to insert the factor of an individual spirit (an addition to the Word) to justify their theology.
Obviously, that’s the exact opposite of what the Word says. The Word says God operates (energizes); VP says we operate. In the midst of VP’s duplication of Eve’s process, VP says the spirit within us energizes. From there he uses the analogy of a car battery. God has now been reduced to a car battery that WE operate. I know that analogies connect to truth in only 1 or 2 points, but there is such a thing as lame analogies. This is a lame analogy if there ever was one.
Proverbs 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
The legs upon which this analogy rests are not equal. A major point in the analogy, God who energizes all spiritual matters, has been reduced to a battery that WE now operate at our will.
What can I say except LAME.
This idea that we operate the spirit at our own will was carried out to the point that all the definitions of the manifestations of the spirit (BTW, VP pointed out that there is only The Manifestation of The Spirit, not nine manifestations, but he continued to use the terminology that he already stated was erroneous – sloppy and fraught with error increasing) were preceded with these words:
The manifestation of *** is your operation of the God-given ability whereby you may receive from God by His revealing it to you.
Many words, no?
For those of you who have run that through your brains until it made sense, that makes sense.
For those of you who have never heard that, or never run it through enough (anything run through the cranium enough makes sense), your response may be WTF.
Either way, that’s a lot or words. Not to be found in the Word, surely something so basic to the children of God doesn’t need to be so hard to be entreated (Matt’s proclivity to hard to entreat posts notwithstanding). The 1st century believers certainly didn’t seem to need such theology.
So, how did the 1st century believers operate the spirit so effectively (sorry, they didn’t operate the spirit), how did they manifest all 9 (sorry, there aren’t 9 manifestations), how did they with great power give witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, great grace being upon them all?
Now, that’s a good question. Back to the basics of I Cor. 12, verse 11b says, “[the Spirit was] dividing to every man severally as he will.
“As he [the man] will.” All we are ever to do is believe God.
E.W. Bullinger had something pertinent to say here:
“Man MUST BELIEVE GOD in what He says in His Word; and he must believe ALL that God says.
In what sharp contrast does this set all that goes to make up RELIGION! Religion occupies man entirely with himself; with what he das DONE, with what he CAN do, and with what he must DO. God would occupy man with HIMSELF, and with what He has SAID.
This it is which gives its character to all “religion” in the present day; “Man’s Day.” Man is exalted, and God set aside. Man’s doings are substituted for man’s believing. This is why, on all hands, mans WORkS are substituted for God’s words. And as the importance of man’s works increases in his estimation, so God’s Word decreases.”
Of course, one may say that Bullinger didn’t understand the field of the spirit to the degree that we do, but to that I say that the foundational truths may never be correctly departed from, only built upon.
Who gets the glory?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works[same word for energizings], lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works [same word for energizings – in this case God’s option and God’s energizing], which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
God is energizing. We should walk in those energizings.
Ever realize after the fact that God had been working in your heart to will and to do of his good pleasure, even though, at the time it was happening, you weren’t aware of it? God was energizing at his option, realizing your believing heart even when you weren’t aware of it – that’s how he can do above what you can ask or think according to the power that works (God’s working) in you.
If you are aware of God’s energizing within, so much the better; you are walking by the spirit in an immediate sense, but you are still playing catch up. God is energizing; you are following his energizing. Even if your following is inspired in the sense of in breathing – you speak and act in immediate synch with God’s leading, you are still acting as Jesus said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.”
Isn’t that so cool? God energizes first, so you can carry the energy (energize) the act to completion.
No one’s free will is messed with. God has so set up spiritual things that we (God & I, or God & us, we all being in concert as Jesus prayed) would all be one with him and God the way that he was/is one with God.
The difference?
In the TWI model, God has already moved; all waits on human slugs to operate.
In the Word, the manifestation of the spirit is (present tense) being given to all – God is operating.
Attend to your believing self in whom God is operating.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi Tom:
http://www.christianherald.info/1-corinthians-12-page-1.html
I just reread the above article that I wrote after reading what you wrote here. I think your explanation of ONE spirit is very complimentary to this. I definitely explained this concept, because one spirit is written a few time in chapter 12. However your explanation of one spirit goes into more detail on this. Your explanation is very good. Yes, I understand that when we write we need time to refine so that people can understand what we write with ease of clarity. This takes time. When I wrote my article I must have refined it at lease 7 times. I also had about 5 other people read it while I was writing it to help with the refinement process and give me feed back and contribute with additional understanding. I like and see the importance in working with other knowledgeable people and want to work with you. I can see we would work well together. The only question that both of us needs to answer is how much time do we have to devote to this? Frankly, I wish there were 4 of me. One to do my manufacturing and screen printing business. Another to work real estate. I am a California licensed real estate broker. Another to do web site design. I am currently a student of this with a knowledge of HTML, Cascading style sheets, Dreamweaver, Flash and ActionScript. A fourth one of me to do biblical articles.
I am going to send you my e-mail address in a PM. Have a good day Tom.
Regards,
Mark
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