seeing as how the stated purpose of this board is directed towards TWI, it is reasonable that posts on it relate to our experiences with that group (or was it a grope) :)
That does not mean that when we are outside this board we don't have other interests. I think you mischaracterize our poster's being "engrossed with TWI" because you do not see us outside of this forum. For that matter, there are many other parts of THIS forum that have other discussions. I for one rarely see TWI come up in my conversations outside of the limited time I am on this forum.
As the title suggests, I wonder who we should be more concerned about: Muslim Extremists? or a very small insignificent group of people Headquartered in a little German Hickville, OH USA town. Let me ask you this to help make my point: You would agree with me (I'm sure) that President Obama knows who Pope John Paul is right? Now, do you think Barack Obama knows who Rozahlee Rivenbark is??? Are you seeing the light yet? Ok, I will keep on going....
Question number 2 (here it is you ready?): What group of votes are more important to the Republican and Democratic parties? Followers of the Way International of New Knoxville,OH (yes in all 50 states and whatever territories and blah blah blah) orrrrrr the Roman Catholic block of voters? Are you with me yet? So now I ask plainly: should we be more concerned about the growth of Islam? or the growth (if you can call it that) of some group headquartered in Poe Dunk (not sure how to spell that) New Knoxville,OH. Has anyone in New York City,NY ;Los Angeles or Hollywood California or in Washington ,DC (besides us "old" wayfers) ever even heard of New Knoxville OH?
People here in GSC are so engrossed with twi. I think we as a country (here in the good ol USA) have much bigger things to worry (or "trust" God to help us overcome) about than twi. Just my opinion. I am interested to read your responses.
Would you agree that those who are actually aware of the insidious nature of this little cult in nowhereville Ohio have a responsibility to address the grevious wrongs it does people? If this little insignificant group has personally affected the individuals here, in an often devestating and long reaching manner. . . . who actually, SHOULD they be more concerned with?
Interesting question. Maybe it is one you should consider again, in light of the lasting effects of physical, mental and spiritual abuse. If you had once been a member of an Islamic extremist organization, and woke up to the reality of violence in God's name. . . . where might your concern be?
I can't really make the leap between voting blocks, ex-cultists, and the growth of Islam. Obviously there is a difference between Islamic extremists and people who practice Islam, so why the concern about the "Spread" of Islam?
Now, if I were a politician directly impacted by TWI. . . . the issue of voting blocks or TWI. . . . and who to be "MORE" concerned with . . . might actually be a quandry. . . . but, then again, I might just be capable enough to be concerned about both. Imagine that!
Since a greater number of people are directly impacted by terrorism, we should forget the ones directly impacted by TWI? How so? Are we less important victims of abuse? Is the long reaching impact on our individual lives somehow less noteworthy? I will grant you it is more subtle than blowing someone up, but I could make a good case in some instances, as to it being nearly as destructive.
I think you might be confusing some rather forward posts on the internet with being engrossed. I work on my computer several times a day. . . I go to different sites. If I stop and read here, add my opinion and become involved in a conversation. . . does that qualify as being engrossed with TWI? I somehow manage my life as well.
Maybe you would do well to consider what it is we have actually discussed. . . the long term effect of our involvment in this cult. . . the time it can actually take to heal. . . and just what TWI has robbed people of. . . like the ability to be comfortable in a CHURCH, a relationship with the Almighty, and trust issues in general. . . . the list is endless.
I think that is worth a word or two. . . even if Obama is not aware or was never actually involved in our own little cornfield cult.
Hey Tag, I understand what you are saying about having a wider view of things and their importance.
I guess that though concerned about muslim extremism, and dismayed at a current political leaders etc...I have had no personal contact or experience with either.
What I do know and understand is that podunk little cult in Ohio that had a significant impact on myself, my spouse, my children and so many many of my friends.
I don`t care about the cult so much as to know why I was so foolish, what made me vulnerable, how could I have been so deceived, why didn`t I stand up for myself, when did I stop thinking, how do I make damned sure it doesn`t happen again.
I hardly ever talk about or reference TWI outside of this site and one other.
Why are you so concerned about people who discuss and yes, b*tch about, TWI on this site?
I'm interested in your response
Very simple. Just me venting. I was very intensely involved with helping (then) Senator Barack Obama win the Democratic nomination against Hillary and then equally or more involved in helping with the general election. I never see anything in the newspapers, or hear on the radio, or see on TV about TWI anymore. Back in the late 70s it was the "fastest growing cult in America". I think it's time has come and gone. It is just my opinion not necessarily the gospel truth. I like the term "cornfield" cult. That was good. It is just a little freaking cornfield in New Knoxville, (where??) OH. (You mean Knoxville, TN? NASHVILLE, TN?) New what? Where? Reminds me of a bumper sticker asking "where in the hell is somewhere, SD?"
Everybody knew about the "campaign" last year. If I said I was an Obama volunteer it needed no explaining. But if you say to someone I was involved with TWI they have no idea what in the world you are talking about. TWI is not heard of by most Americans.
There aremany things that affect small groups of people, yet are important nonetheless
I hope that people realize I just felt the need to vent. I realize there is a lot of past hurt to overcome much like Vietnam war vets. I think there is a definite time parallel with the Vietnam War and the glory days of the "groovy Christians" of Rye, NY. But this was all more than 30 years ago or 40 years ago.
I was never in the upper Echelon of the Way Ministry. I just went to church there (in homes) and liked it for a while. My first ROA (1976) was awesome. but as the years went by I did not want to do all that driving and arrive there tired as hell.
I can't really make the leap between voting blocks, ex-cultists, and the growth of Islam. Obviously there is a difference between Islamic extremists and people who practice Islam, so why the concern about the "Spread" of Islam?
It seemed like huge leaps in the initial post to me as well..Im not following the reasoning--the dictates or the concerns either...
To me--George had it right with his link
Weve been over the "growth of Islam" "extremists", "voting blocks" about a thousand times here and there are people who worked on behalf of just about all the recent presidential candidates (when they werent engrossed with TWI that is )--Some people even have other interests and involvements(!)
You might want to read around the site just a little bit first before you start jumping to conclusions about how narrow and small we all are
As the title suggests, I wonder who we should be more concerned about: Muslim Extremists? or a very small insignificent group of people Headquartered in a little German Hickville, OH USA town.
On a national and policy level? Muslim extremists.
On a local level and on this forum? the small insignificant group of people HQ'd in Hickville, OH.
Why? Because the small insignificant group continues to sell snake oil, suck people in, and leave their lives empty carcasses after parasitically sucking the life out of them. And there's virtually no place to expose them outside of this site. Which alerts people.
While I see your point as far as big, world shaking issues vs. TWI I find it ironic(along with many Greasespotters) that TWI promotes itself as some kind of world beating organization. I'm the first to agree with you that compared to extremist Islam that TWI is insignificant, but they (TWI) really are the ones who seem to be upset at the notions of TWI insignificance IMO.
But as with any form of abuse and those who suffered through it, whether or not the abuser is insignificant or not does not have any bearing at all as to the point that the ABUSE IS SIGNIFICANT.
And I have and will resist anyone who knowingly puts victims down because of their own personal agenda. And in the year-plus since I have been here it seems to me that some pro-TWI folks have made the very same point that your first post made. But since you are new here it is easy to give you the benefit of the doubt as to your intentions Tagalong.
For me, it is about one's compassion for the victims.
And I have seen folks who only want them to shut up.
While I see your point as far as big, world shaking issues vs. TWI I find it ironic(along with many Greasespotters) that TWI promotes itself as some kind of world beating organization. I'm the first to agree with you that compared to extremist Islam that TWI is insignificant, but they (TWI) really are the ones who seem to be upset at the notions of TWI insignificance IMO.
But as with any form of abuse and those who suffered through it, whether or not the abuser is insignificant or not does not have any bearing at all as to the point that the ABUSE IS SIGNIFICANT.
And I have and will resist anyone who knowingly puts victims down because of their own personal agenda. And in the year-plus since I have been here it seems to me that some pro-TWI folks have made the very same point that your first post made. But since you are new here it is easy to give you the benefit of the doubt as to your intentions Tagalong.
For me, it is about one's compassion for the victims.
And I have seen folks who only want them to shut up.
(edited for spelling and grammar)
Thank you here to all who have responded. I have grossly underestimated the pain and suffering people have gone through and I ask forgiveness on that.
While I see your point as far as big, world shaking issues vs. TWI I find it ironic(along with many Greasespotters) that TWI promotes itself as some kind of world beating organization. I'm the first to agree with you that compared to extremist Islam that TWI is insignificant, but they (TWI) really are the ones who seem to be upset at the notions of TWI insignificance IMO.
But as with any form of abuse and those who suffered through it, whether or not the abuser is insignificant or not does not have any bearing at all as to the point that the ABUSE IS SIGNIFICANT.
And I have and will resist anyone who knowingly puts victims down because of their own personal agenda. And in the year-plus since I have been here it seems to me that some pro-TWI folks have made the very same point that your first post made. But since you are new here it is easy to give you the benefit of the doubt as to your intentions Tagalong.
For me, it is about one's compassion for the victims.
And I have seen folks who only want them to shut up.
(edited for spelling and grammar)
Quote : "they (TWI) really are the ones who seem to be upset at the notions of TWI insignificance " It really has changed over the years. It seems so sad because I remember when the founding president was invited to the Presidential Inauguration (for Ronald Reagan in 1980) in Washington DC. So sad that they now see themselves as "insignificent". I think even a small church (with very few people) can make a difference in a community and even in a country.
Quote : "they (TWI) really are the ones who seem to be upset at the notions of TWI insignificance " It really has changed over the years. It seems so sad because I remember when the founding president was invited to the Presidential Inauguration (for Ronald Reagan in 1980) in Washington DC. So sad that they now see themselves as "insignificent". I think even a small church (with very few people) can make a difference in a community and even in a country.
Dear Tagalong,
I wish that I could agree with you as to them having changed. But because of the abundance of sharings here at the Greasespot I do not believe that they have changed anything other than their P.R. stance.
For years I believed the stories about Wierwille's trip to Washington for Reagan's innaguration that came from TWI. But here at the Greasespot I heard sharings concerning Wierwille's trip that were concerning the military man that gave up his innaguration tickets to Wierwille. And it turns out that Wierwille went to one of the really minor balls amoung the many at Washington at that time. And the rest of the sharings that I read on the topic made it clear to me that in the big scheme of things Wierwille's presence there was in truth, totally insignificant. But the P.R. from TWI made it seem like Wierwille went to Washingtom as a super-conqueror and the stories that were told seemed to imply that Wierwille had an impact but in true P.R. style the didn't come right out and make any claims that could be either verified or discredited.
So given that these sharings that I read here seem credible to me the only conclusion that I have left to make is that Wierwille was adept at magnifying himself with all the substance (or lack of substance) as any stage show magician.And I definitely count myself to be solidly amoung those who for decades were taken in by TWI P.R. without ever being able to take in what I now think of as "The Rest of the Story". (Thank you Paul Harvey)
Until I hear absolute honest humility from TWI about their history it only seems likely to me that at best they've not changed at all except superficially. The ministry was founded by a sociopathic narcissist who only reaped what he sowed when his own children pushed him out of the "Way" into practical insignificance in his own ministry. And then Rosie threw Martindale under the bus and took power when it appeared that TWI may be held accountable for the vile things that they have always done behind closed doors.
For me, I wish I could believe that TWI has changed, but TWI at it's top level and behind closed doors is run by ruthless, digusting liars that have been refusing to tell us anything that sane people would recognize as truth for decades about leadership actions IMO.
So since they are still lying or dissembling at least any notions that they have changed their attitude seem to be at best superficial change for the sake of simple survival, similarly to how many poisonous cold blooded creatures try to fit into their surroundings in a manner to still function.
So compared to a world wide issue such as people who willingly recruit poor, hopeless children to blow themselves up and kill other inocents, yes TWI is very minor. But IMO it is still just a poisonous reptile that is just trying to change it's colors.
And yes, I am still thankfull for much of what I learned in PFAL. But PFAL's reputation that TWI promoted were lies too. And I find it ironic that the same bible that I learned about in PFAL would end up leading me to conclude that what TWI really, really is would seem to be worthy of the firey revenge that so many of the epistles speak of.
(edited for spelling, a little added too,sigh...changed the format a little to make sense.))
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GarthP2000
Uhhh, ... how about being concerned with both, and in their respective contexts.
1) TWI, while MUCH smaller than Islam, has affected just about everybody here in a lot more ways and intensity than Islam has overall.
2) While Islam reaches and has affected a lot more people overall, including many who have never heard of TWI.
So, as you can see, each group has affected (hurt) different people in different contexts, so it really doesn't have to be a one or other situation.
By the way, very nice redesign of the board, Paw; altho' the smiley interface still needs some work. ;)
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HAPe4me
seeing as how the stated purpose of this board is directed towards TWI, it is reasonable that posts on it relate to our experiences with that group (or was it a grope) :)
That does not mean that when we are outside this board we don't have other interests. I think you mischaracterize our poster's being "engrossed with TWI" because you do not see us outside of this forum. For that matter, there are many other parts of THIS forum that have other discussions. I for one rarely see TWI come up in my conversations outside of the limited time I am on this forum.
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George Aar
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dmiller
For what it's worth - - - this is an EX-TWI board. Yes. Twi is the main focus of concentration here. As it should be.
I suppose you've heard the term "There's bigger fish to fry"? Is that the suggestion being promoted here?
There are forums here that allow folks to express political opinions. Wear your asbestos undies when you go there.
Garth and Hap both (with whom I disagree with constantly on political issues), just gave you some good advice.
Were I you, I'd heed it and take it to the bank. Their advice is a check that will not bounce :)
(edited for a spelling mistake) :o
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George Aar
Oh, and if I may,
I think your "black and white" slip is showing...
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now I see
Good one George. :P
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geisha779
Would you agree that those who are actually aware of the insidious nature of this little cult in nowhereville Ohio have a responsibility to address the grevious wrongs it does people? If this little insignificant group has personally affected the individuals here, in an often devestating and long reaching manner. . . . who actually, SHOULD they be more concerned with?
Interesting question. Maybe it is one you should consider again, in light of the lasting effects of physical, mental and spiritual abuse. If you had once been a member of an Islamic extremist organization, and woke up to the reality of violence in God's name. . . . where might your concern be?
I can't really make the leap between voting blocks, ex-cultists, and the growth of Islam. Obviously there is a difference between Islamic extremists and people who practice Islam, so why the concern about the "Spread" of Islam?
Now, if I were a politician directly impacted by TWI. . . . the issue of voting blocks or TWI. . . . and who to be "MORE" concerned with . . . might actually be a quandry. . . . but, then again, I might just be capable enough to be concerned about both. Imagine that!
Since a greater number of people are directly impacted by terrorism, we should forget the ones directly impacted by TWI? How so? Are we less important victims of abuse? Is the long reaching impact on our individual lives somehow less noteworthy? I will grant you it is more subtle than blowing someone up, but I could make a good case in some instances, as to it being nearly as destructive.
I think you might be confusing some rather forward posts on the internet with being engrossed. I work on my computer several times a day. . . I go to different sites. If I stop and read here, add my opinion and become involved in a conversation. . . does that qualify as being engrossed with TWI? I somehow manage my life as well.
Maybe you would do well to consider what it is we have actually discussed. . . the long term effect of our involvment in this cult. . . the time it can actually take to heal. . . and just what TWI has robbed people of. . . like the ability to be comfortable in a CHURCH, a relationship with the Almighty, and trust issues in general. . . . the list is endless.
I think that is worth a word or two. . . even if Obama is not aware or was never actually involved in our own little cornfield cult.
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waysider
Do you walk to school or carry your lunch?
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rascal
Hey Tag, I understand what you are saying about having a wider view of things and their importance.
I guess that though concerned about muslim extremism, and dismayed at a current political leaders etc...I have had no personal contact or experience with either.
What I do know and understand is that podunk little cult in Ohio that had a significant impact on myself, my spouse, my children and so many many of my friends.
I don`t care about the cult so much as to know why I was so foolish, what made me vulnerable, how could I have been so deceived, why didn`t I stand up for myself, when did I stop thinking, how do I make damned sure it doesn`t happen again.
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Oakspear
I hardly ever talk about or reference TWI outside of this site and one other.
Why are you so concerned about people who discuss and yes, b*tch about, TWI on this site?
I'm interested in your response
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tagalong
Everybody knew about the "campaign" last year. If I said I was an Obama volunteer it needed no explaining. But if you say to someone I was involved with TWI they have no idea what in the world you are talking about. TWI is not heard of by most Americans.
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Oakspear
There aremany things that affect small groups of people, yet are important nonetheless
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tagalong
I hope that people realize I just felt the need to vent. I realize there is a lot of past hurt to overcome much like Vietnam war vets. I think there is a definite time parallel with the Vietnam War and the glory days of the "groovy Christians" of Rye, NY. But this was all more than 30 years ago or 40 years ago.
I was never in the upper Echelon of the Way Ministry. I just went to church there (in homes) and liked it for a while. My first ROA (1976) was awesome. but as the years went by I did not want to do all that driving and arrive there tired as hell.
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waysider
Maybe for some folks, but much more recent (and even current) for others.
Time is irrelevant, though. Would you tell a rape victim to "get over it" simply because much time has elapsed?
Everyone's time table for healing is uniquely theirs.
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mstar1
It seemed like huge leaps in the initial post to me as well..Im not following the reasoning--the dictates or the concerns either...
To me--George had it right with his link
Weve been over the "growth of Islam" "extremists", "voting blocks" about a thousand times here and there are people who worked on behalf of just about all the recent presidential candidates (when they werent engrossed with TWI that is
)--Some people even have other interests and involvements(!)
You might want to read around the site just a little bit first before you start jumping to conclusions about how narrow and small we all are
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Oakspear
Yeah, I get it...you're venting...about us
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chockfull
On a national and policy level? Muslim extremists.
On a local level and on this forum? the small insignificant group of people HQ'd in Hickville, OH.
Why? Because the small insignificant group continues to sell snake oil, suck people in, and leave their lives empty carcasses after parasitically sucking the life out of them. And there's virtually no place to expose them outside of this site. Which alerts people.
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JeffSjo
Hi Tagalong,
While I see your point as far as big, world shaking issues vs. TWI I find it ironic(along with many Greasespotters) that TWI promotes itself as some kind of world beating organization. I'm the first to agree with you that compared to extremist Islam that TWI is insignificant, but they (TWI) really are the ones who seem to be upset at the notions of TWI insignificance IMO.
But as with any form of abuse and those who suffered through it, whether or not the abuser is insignificant or not does not have any bearing at all as to the point that the ABUSE IS SIGNIFICANT.
And I have and will resist anyone who knowingly puts victims down because of their own personal agenda. And in the year-plus since I have been here it seems to me that some pro-TWI folks have made the very same point that your first post made. But since you are new here it is easy to give you the benefit of the doubt as to your intentions Tagalong.
For me, it is about one's compassion for the victims.
And I have seen folks who only want them to shut up.
(edited for spelling and grammar)
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tagalong
Thank you here to all who have responded. I have grossly underestimated the pain and suffering people have gone through and I ask forgiveness on that.
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tagalong
Quote : "they (TWI) really are the ones who seem to be upset at the notions of TWI insignificance " It really has changed over the years. It seems so sad because I remember when the founding president was invited to the Presidential Inauguration (for Ronald Reagan in 1980) in Washington DC. So sad that they now see themselves as "insignificent". I think even a small church (with very few people) can make a difference in a community and even in a country.
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Tzaia
Tagalong - The main difference between extremist Islamics and TWI is that TWI has never gotten past being a wannabe.
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JeffSjo
Dear Tagalong,
I wish that I could agree with you as to them having changed. But because of the abundance of sharings here at the Greasespot I do not believe that they have changed anything other than their P.R. stance.
For years I believed the stories about Wierwille's trip to Washington for Reagan's innaguration that came from TWI. But here at the Greasespot I heard sharings concerning Wierwille's trip that were concerning the military man that gave up his innaguration tickets to Wierwille. And it turns out that Wierwille went to one of the really minor balls amoung the many at Washington at that time. And the rest of the sharings that I read on the topic made it clear to me that in the big scheme of things Wierwille's presence there was in truth, totally insignificant. But the P.R. from TWI made it seem like Wierwille went to Washingtom as a super-conqueror and the stories that were told seemed to imply that Wierwille had an impact but in true P.R. style the didn't come right out and make any claims that could be either verified or discredited.
So given that these sharings that I read here seem credible to me the only conclusion that I have left to make is that Wierwille was adept at magnifying himself with all the substance (or lack of substance) as any stage show magician.And I definitely count myself to be solidly amoung those who for decades were taken in by TWI P.R. without ever being able to take in what I now think of as "The Rest of the Story". (Thank you Paul Harvey)
Until I hear absolute honest humility from TWI about their history it only seems likely to me that at best they've not changed at all except superficially. The ministry was founded by a sociopathic narcissist who only reaped what he sowed when his own children pushed him out of the "Way" into practical insignificance in his own ministry. And then Rosie threw Martindale under the bus and took power when it appeared that TWI may be held accountable for the vile things that they have always done behind closed doors.
For me, I wish I could believe that TWI has changed, but TWI at it's top level and behind closed doors is run by ruthless, digusting liars that have been refusing to tell us anything that sane people would recognize as truth for decades about leadership actions IMO.
So since they are still lying or dissembling at least any notions that they have changed their attitude seem to be at best superficial change for the sake of simple survival, similarly to how many poisonous cold blooded creatures try to fit into their surroundings in a manner to still function.
So compared to a world wide issue such as people who willingly recruit poor, hopeless children to blow themselves up and kill other inocents, yes TWI is very minor. But IMO it is still just a poisonous reptile that is just trying to change it's colors.
And yes, I am still thankfull for much of what I learned in PFAL. But PFAL's reputation that TWI promoted were lies too. And I find it ironic that the same bible that I learned about in PFAL would end up leading me to conclude that what TWI really, really is would seem to be worthy of the firey revenge that so many of the epistles speak of.
(edited for spelling, a little added too,sigh...changed the format a little to make sense.))
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