Geisha, I think you're opening up a whole new can of worms! But I think you've got something there.
I don't recall any specific teachings along those lines - - BUT -- someone suggesting we could have done what Jesus did [by operating all 9 all the time, of course or through absolute reliance on the "law of believing"] doesn't seem outlandish for TWI doctrine. I think the deck was stacked against Jesus ever getting top billing at New Knoxville - even from the gitgo. The Word takes the place of the absent Christ…It's Christ in you the hope of glory. It's Christ's brain cells behind your brain cells…God has no hands but our hands…gospels weren't written to us…
It's a strange thing to think about – even though Jesus Christ is tossed around in PFAL – it's almost like He was a has-been or something – taking second or third fiddle to what WE could do now with the Holy Spirit. Imo, Jesus Christ was nothing more than window dressing for PFAL – putting a nice Christian veneer on some strange doctrines….that brings me back to some more thoughts about what you were saying. I believe vp tended to diminish the seriousness of sin, promote a cheap grace and lived like someone who had no fear of God in their life. God forbid our behavior should make us feel bad…and then there's his talk about a loving parent not forsaking their child in time of need…I do think vp's tendency to emphasize love and ignore the consequences of sin paved the way for a loose-living lifestyle with no boundaries, no rules, no consequences.
Well, yes exactly! But, I do remember something along the lines of a teaching that indicated anyone of us could have lived the life He did and saved mankind. To think about that now. . . I have to slap my forehead, and ask myself. . . what was I thinking? Blasphemy comes to mind.
The whole idea of God being Holy is a concept that was nearly nonexistent in TWI. Vp taught and lived like a man who had no clue. Cheap grace. Bought cheaply if some of those teachings are to be believed.
. . . by the way. . . Chuck Swindoll, who was quoted and relied upon in the first link I gave. . . is a well known evangelical Pastor, teacher, and author. A graduate of Dallas Theological.
Not only the idea of death being a separation is important to consider, but also. . . what it means to live. What it means that our lives are hid with Christ. The whole concept of eternal separation from God. . . wailing and gnashing of teeth. . . so to speak. What exactly is it we are saved from?? For now. . . all die a physical death. . . . our bodies and our minds are separated.
Was "soul sleep" a correct teaching? . . . .
That is why this topic is nearly impossible to really discuss here and somewhat pointless.
Many still believe in the ideas espoused by VP and other aberrant groups(NOT used as a pejorative!!). . . soul sleep, unitaianism, annihilationism . . .
These are not traditional Christian teachings.
I can see how one group of beliefs would lead to one conclusion. . . another concept a different conclusion. Makes perfect sense.
To me it is just another illustration of how far removed from traditional Christianity we really were. How all those teachings and most basic beliefs about God lead in two different directions.
What I also wonder about VP . . . . is why he was almost anxious to remove the symbol of the cross from our minds. We didn't wear crosses. . . we replaced it with the HS dove. . . . we removed the cross from the chapel at Emporia, and we were always ready to tell someone it was a rather macabre fixation. . . "If He had died in the electric chair. . . " :(
The symbol of the cross evokes reverence and awe in Christians. . . because of what was accomplished. If the bible is to be believed. . . it is the most significant event in human history. . . coreographed by God Himself. .. and all moments were leading to the work done there. . . mankind changed forever. . .
It must be significant what we understand about it. Doesn't that make sense?
But, I do believe these are questions we need to work out an answer for ourselves with sincere examination and humbleness before God. There is no quick easy and obvious fix
IMO. . . It is a foundation issue. . . pfal was a rotten foundational understanding.
Well, yes exactly! But, I do remember something along the lines of a teaching that indicated anyone of us could have lived the life He did and saved mankind. To think about that now. . . I have to slap my forehead, and ask myself. . . what was I thinking? Blasphemy comes to mind.
Yeah.....blasphemy would sum it up quite well. <_<
Sure any twi elitist *could* have saved mankind with perfect believing........(shrug). Clearly, the scriptures show the alignment of God's perfect plan coming to fruition.......geneology, royal bloodline ties, sinless blood, born in Nazareth, confronting the Pharisees, prophecies coming to pass, all the Passover and Lamb references, total oneness with God, dying on the cross, etc. etc...............sure "any wayfer" could have lived that life.
The whole idea of God being Holy is a concept that was nearly nonexistent in TWI. Vp taught and lived like a man who had no clue. Cheap grace. Bought cheaply if some of those teachings are to be believed.
Yup Geisha & Skyrider – ditto to PFAL being a rotten foundation, cheap grace, cheap righteousness, cheap doctrine & cheap suits!
~~
Getting back to Leafytwiglet's opening post – I've been reviewing the gospels on Jesus' words from the cross…thinking and just doing some more speculating. In Mark 15:35 after Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1, some bystanders said He was calling for Elijah. In John 19:30 Jesus received the sour wine and said "It is finished!", bowed His head and gave up His spirit.
After reading Psalm 22 [which I pasted below – [chose NIV cuz it was the easiest to clean up the hyper-text stuff] I was just wondering…was Jesus quoting the entire Psalm. Maybe bystanders mistook His words for a whole lot of rambling by a delirious punch-drunk poor soul.
…I know – it's a bit of a stretch – just thinking about the last phrase in Psalm 22, "he has done it" equating with "it is finished". But instead of using the third person – Jesus states it in the sense of Himself accomplishing it. Though the Psalm applied immediately to David when it was written – it ultimately was fulfilled in Jesus at the cross. Imo, a very unusual Psalm – such contrast….from expressing hopelessness & abandonment in a horrible situation – to praising God for His help to others in times past.
Because the New Testament has about 15 messianic quotations and/or allusions to Psalm 22 some commentaries & study Bibles refer to it as the fifth gospel. I can see that for sure [now who was the fifth Beatle is probably a more debatable issue :) ].
Psalm 22 NIV
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
T-bone do you know when psalm 22 was written time wise in David's life .
and it seems so much to mirror Christs time on the cross and directly leading up to it.
I am wondering too if Jesus Quoted the whole psalm....
Any way lots of food for thought here.
Oh and one more question that relates to all this is... where did VP get the "for this purpose I was spared" from because his track record of stealing other peoples works suggest he had to get it from some where else.
Yes, the valid and factual biblical material we have proof that VPW copied from bible researchers and teachers. However, the bad and useless stuff he perhaps made up himself. For example, who else do you know that teaches that the original sin was masterbation?
The standard teaching in TWI was that Jesus had to have had perfect "believing" and never doubt for a second in order to pull off his feat. And the idea was that if we could perfect our "believing" in like manner, we could do the same thing. Does anyone see a huge problem with this? Well, for starters, the "law" of believing is bogus! This wasn't a promotion of what Jesus did. It was an infomercial for TWI doctrine. (specifically, the "law" of believing.) Therefore it's a moot point . Now, with that obstacle out of the way, who's to say he never had any doubts about anything? Maybe he actually said "Why have you forsaken me?" because that's how he really felt. Just a thought.
T-bone do you know when psalm 22 was written time wise in David's life .
and it seems so much to mirror Christs time on the cross and directly leading up to it.
I am wondering too if Jesus Quoted the whole psalm....
Any way lots of food for thought here.
Oh and one more question that relates to all this is... where did VP get the "for this purpose I was spared" from because his track record of stealing other peoples works suggest he had to get it from some where else.
From what I've picked up in some commentaries and what little I know of David's life – I think it's when Saul was after him…
Page 303 of Keil & Delitzsch Commentary of the Old Testament, Volume 5, Psalms by C.F. Keil & F. Delitzsch says:
"…It is a Davidic Psalm belonging to the time of the persecution by Saul. Ewald brings it down to the time preceding the destruction of Jerusalem, and Bauer to the time of the Exile…But it seems to be confirmed at every point, that David who was so persecuted by Saul, is the author…"
End of excerpt
~~
Page 167 & ff of Exploring the Psalms, Volume One, Psalms 1-88 by John Phillips says:
"…This psalm might have been written when David was cornered by Saul in the wilderness of Maon. Persecution by Saul had been fierce and David, scrambling place to place to keep out of his reach, was in desperate straits. David could easily have thought that even God had abandoned him, but soon learned otherwise, for a providential Philistine invasion of Israel at the other end of the country distracted Saul in the nick of time and forced him to call off the hunt (I Samuel 23:25-29).
The intense personal note on this psalm shows it was wrung out of David in some bitter experience. He described the situation graphically. He was pinned to one spot, his enemies gathered all around, deprived of his clothing, subjected to at least one form of torture (for his hands and feet have been wounded), absolutely friendless. Somewhere in the background were many friends, but even so his enemies were many and strong, his sufferings prolonged, and his mental and spiritual anguish intense. His chief pain, however, lay in the fact that God seemingly had abandoned him.
Christians have seen a vivid and realistic portrait of the Lord Jesus Christ in this psalm. The sufferer is evidently enduring the horrors of crucifixion. David never suffered any such thing – possibly never knew there was such a way to die.
Some of the hyperbole is really inspired prophecy as we can see when we compare what is written with the story of the crucifixion. Indeed, the Psalmist gives a more vivid description of the sufferings of Christ on the cross than do the authors of the gospels, none whom dwell on the horrors of crucifixion, which were too well known in their day to need elaboration…"
End of excerpts
~~
As far as where vp got the "for this purpose was I spared" thing… WordWolf and some of Grease Spot's other top notch "investigators" could probably nail it down for you…but off the top of my head I'm thinking…[if memory serves me right - he pulled the old "hey, someone else was thinking along the same lines as me too, what a coincidence" crap – like he did with Bullinger/4 crucified…] after vp suggested his version of the words from the cross in PFAL, he referred to The Holy Bible from Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by George Lamsa, quoting Matthew 27:46 "…My God, my God, for this I was spared". Lamsa has a footnote on the verse which reads "This was my destiny".
They say it is funny because it is true. . . . too true. . . Christians are to boast in the cross only. . . I think we may have missed that.
T-bone,
There is a great little book by John Piper. . . The Passion of Jesus Christ. He gives fifty reason why Jesus came to die. I have a copy and if you can't find one. . . you can have mine. . . my treat.
When Jesus cries out on the Cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" It is really paradoxical isn't it? One the one hand, it was God's purpose before the ages began. . . .on the other it was the will of the Lord to crush him, He has put Him to grief. Isaiah 53:10 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied. 53:11. . . an outpouring of His wrath. . . smitten of God. . . and yet. . . . it was a fragrant offering to God.
It was an incredible act of submission and trust by Jesus and reveals such an intense relationship between them . . . It is also a staggering display of God's amazing love for us.
God is nothing if not paradoxical. I like what John Piper says. . . "The wrath-bearer was infinitely loved." To paraphrase another comment. . . . God's love is not simple or sentimental. . . the terrible wonder of the love of God.
From what I've picked up in some commentaries and what little I know of David's life – I think it's when Saul was after him…
Page 303 of Keil & Delitzsch Commentary of the Old Testament, Volume 5, Psalms by C.F. Keil & F. Delitzsch says:
"…It is a Davidic Psalm belonging to the time of the persecution by Saul. Ewald brings it down to the time preceding the destruction of Jerusalem, and Bauer to the time of the Exile…But it seems to be confirmed at every point, that David who was so persecuted by Saul, is the author…"
End of excerpt
~~
Page 167 & ff of Exploring the Psalms, Volume One, Psalms 1-88 by John Phillips says:
"…This psalm might have been written when David was cornered by Saul in the wilderness of Maon. Persecution by Saul had been fierce and David, scrambling place to place to keep out of his reach, was in desperate straits. David could easily have thought that even God had abandoned him, but soon learned otherwise, for a providential Philistine invasion of Israel at the other end of the country distracted Saul in the nick of time and forced him to call off the hunt (I Samuel 23:25-29).
The intense personal note on this psalm shows it was wrung out of David in some bitter experience. He described the situation graphically. He was pinned to one spot, his enemies gathered all around, deprived of his clothing, subjected to at least one form of torture (for his hands and feet have been wounded), absolutely friendless. Somewhere in the background were many friends, but even so his enemies were many and strong, his sufferings prolonged, and his mental and spiritual anguish intense. His chief pain, however, lay in the fact that God seemingly had abandoned him.
Christians have seen a vivid and realistic portrait of the Lord Jesus Christ in this psalm. The sufferer is evidently enduring the horrors of crucifixion. David never suffered any such thing – possibly never knew there was such a way to die.
Some of the hyperbole is really inspired prophecy as we can see when we compare what is written with the story of the crucifixion. Indeed, the Psalmist gives a more vivid description of the sufferings of Christ on the cross than do the authors of the gospels, none whom dwell on the horrors of crucifixion, which were too well known in their day to need elaboration…"
End of excerpts
~~
As far as where vp got the "for this purpose was I spared" thing… WordWolf and some of Grease Spot's other top notch "investigators" could probably nail it down for you…but off the top of my head I'm thinking…[if memory serves me right - he pulled the old "hey, someone else was thinking along the same lines as me too, what a coincidence" crap – like he did with Bullinger/4 crucified…] after vp suggested his version of the words from the cross in PFAL, he referred to The Holy Bible from Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by George Lamsa, quoting Matthew 27:46 "…My God, my God, for this I was spared". Lamsa has a footnote on the verse which reads "This was my destiny".
Thanks T-bone..and Geisha
I am constantly stunned here when I realize how much (probably all) of VP's stuff was stolen and repackaged as his own with no credit to who the original author was. My heart sometimes aches over it.
So much misdirection and muddled ideas mixed with some truth ... IT is like a knot that you have to untangle to find the beautiful thread of God's word that this person twisted up for their own personal gain, that I foolishly followed with out much question because they presented it in what seemed at the time as a logical explanation.
And all compounded by my own lack of knowledge of the bible.
Waysider, THanks also for that insight.. I guess I really was lucky that I was just a little twiglet and didn't get to hear that stuff.. Lucky that I left before more of the poisin of VP corrupted my brain. Plenty sure did in my short time there.
I think the other thing we probably have to consider. . . . is WHO he actually plagerized. That is worth a look/see too. It is interesting to look at what ideas and teachings interested VP. In some ways(with hindsight) it is easy to see why he gravitated to what he did. That "Snapping" thread laid out some fascinating concepts. . . I guess it is up to us as individuals to investigate. . . unless we have just chucked the whole thing. . . . .like me
John Juedes also has a few articles. He has one on George M Lamsa. . . . . written for the Christian Research Institute. . CRI deals with many issues concerning Christian Cults.
There is a great little book by John Piper. . . The Passion of Jesus Christ. He gives fifty reason why Jesus came to die. I have a copy and if you can't find one. . . you can have mine. . . my treat.
When Jesus cries out on the Cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" It is really paradoxical isn't it? One the one hand, it was God's purpose before the ages began. . . .on the other it was the will of the Lord to crush him, He has put Him to grief. Isaiah 53:10 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied. 53:11. . . an outpouring of His wrath. . . smitten of God. . . and yet. . . . it was a fragrant offering to God.
It was an incredible act of submission and trust by Jesus and reveals such an intense relationship between them . . . It is also a staggering display of God's amazing love for us.
God is nothing if not paradoxical. I like what John Piper says. . . "The wrath-bearer was infinitely loved." To paraphrase another comment. . . . God's love is not simple or sentimental. . . the terrible wonder of the love of God.
Got it, Geisha - I'll put Piper's book on my to-read list and will probably check it out of the library sometime....If I buy any more books Tonto will make me build an addition onto the house .
The standard teaching in TWI was that Jesus had to have had perfect "believing" and never doubt for a second in order to pull off his feat. And the idea was that if we could perfect our "believing" in like manner, we could do the same thing. Does anyone see a huge problem with this? Well, for starters, the "law" of believing is bogus! This wasn't a promotion of what Jesus did. It was an infomercial for TWI doctrine. (specifically, the "law" of believing.) Therefore it's a moot point . Now, with that obstacle out of the way, who's to say he never had any doubts about anything? Maybe he actually said "Why have you forsaken me?" because that's how he really felt. Just a thought.
For me, there's 2 different issues.
1) What DID he say?
2) IF he said "Why have you forsaken me" (which is still under contention, but can be discussed separately
for the sake of discussion), what, EXACTLY, did that mean?
That is,
Was it an accurate statement-of-fact of the reality of that moment?
Was it a technically inaccurate statement that reflected exactly how he was feeling at that moment?
Was it an intentional quote from Psalms- and, if so, why was it quoted? (This brings us another branching of discussion...)
I think it would be perfectly acceptable to be screaming in pain, angry at God, and feel forsaken if one
was tortured to the standards of the day, then crucified by the standards of the day.
I have no guarantee this is WHAT HAPPENED, but I see it as a reasonable possibility.
This would mean he FELT that way, but-if his logic was functioning at all- he would have been the first to say that
Well, yes exactly! But, I do remember something along the lines of a teaching that indicated anyone of us could have lived the life He did and saved mankind. To think about that now. . . I have to slap my forehead, and ask myself. . . what was I thinking? Blasphemy comes to mind.
The whole idea of God being Holy is a concept that was nearly nonexistent in TWI. Vp taught and lived like a man who had no clue. Cheap grace. Bought cheaply if some of those teachings are to be believed.
. . . by the way. . . Chuck Swindoll, who was quoted and relied upon in the first link I gave. . . is a well known evangelical Pastor, teacher, and author. A graduate of Dallas Theological.
Not only the idea of death being a separation is important to consider, but also. . . what it means to live. What it means that our lives are hid with Christ. The whole concept of eternal separation from God. . . wailing and gnashing of teeth. . . so to speak. What exactly is it we are saved from?? For now. . . all die a physical death. . . . our bodies and our minds are separated.
Was "soul sleep" a correct teaching? . . . .
That is why this topic is nearly impossible to really discuss here and somewhat pointless.
Many still believe in the ideas espoused by VP and other aberrant groups(NOT used as a pejorative!!). . . soul sleep, unitaianism, annihilationism . . .
These are not traditional Christian teachings.
I can see how one group of beliefs would lead to one conclusion. . . another concept a different conclusion. Makes perfect sense.
To me it is just another illustration of how far removed from traditional Christianity we really were. How all those teachings and most basic beliefs about God lead in two different directions.
What I also wonder about VP . . . . is why he was almost anxious to remove the symbol of the cross from our minds. We didn't wear crosses. . . we replaced it with the HS dove. . . . we removed the cross from the chapel at Emporia, and we were always ready to tell someone it was a rather macabre fixation. . . "If He had died in the electric chair. . . " :(
The symbol of the cross evokes reverence and awe in Christians. . . because of what was accomplished. If the bible is to be believed. . . it is the most significant event in human history. . . coreographed by God Himself. .. and all moments were leading to the work done there. . . mankind changed forever. . .
It must be significant what we understand about it. Doesn't that make sense?
But, I do believe these are questions we need to work out an answer for ourselves with sincere examination and humbleness before God. There is no quick easy and obvious fix
IMO. . . It is a foundation issue. . . pfal was a rotten foundational understanding.
Hi Geisha...good to see you posting again...
Blasphemy indeed. It's funny, today, I was talking with the Lord, and told Him, I sure could never have done what He did at Calvary!
I bet, most of you here of my generation, could tell me what the next line is, we could probably sing the whole song together.
Signs, wonders, miracles - those things Christ did during his ministry, were for the Nation of Israel, proof Jesus was indeed the Messiah.
He said those words as he was dying on the cross... The first line of that amazing Psalm, the hearers knew the rest. The end of the Psalm shows him in total triumph.
My personal thinking is this was his last "sign" before he died, while he was alive, directed to the Jewish people, as to who he really was.
I bet, most of you here of my generation, could tell me what the next line is, we could probably sing the whole song together.
Signs, wonders, miracles - those things Christ did during his ministry, were for the Nation of Israel, proof Jesus was indeed the Messiah.
He said those words as he was dying on the cross... The first line of that amazing Psalm, the hearers knew the rest. The end of the Psalm shows him in total triumph.
My personal thinking is this was his last "sign" before he died, while he was alive, directed to the Jewish people, as to who he really was.
Hi Sunesis,
I just wanted to say I am glad to see you here sister!!! I soooo enjoy reading your contributions. . . . One of the things that I think have gotten really missed in TWI is that the gospel is not really all about us getting saved. . . it is about Christ saving the world. It is interesting how you highlight who He came for first.
Not to over simplify but wouldn't Jesus have known what he was going to have to go through in order to redeem mankind? The OT has lots of details about what he would endure. So on the cross I would not think there would have been any confusion in his mind about why he was hanging there and why he would die. For me it appears foolish to think that he would question God by crying out Why? when he had walked into the whole thing fully aware of what was going to happen.
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geisha779
Well, yes exactly! But, I do remember something along the lines of a teaching that indicated anyone of us could have lived the life He did and saved mankind. To think about that now. . . I have to slap my forehead, and ask myself. . . what was I thinking? Blasphemy comes to mind.
The whole idea of God being Holy is a concept that was nearly nonexistent in TWI. Vp taught and lived like a man who had no clue. Cheap grace. Bought cheaply if some of those teachings are to be believed.
Here is another link to that site http://www.gotquestions.org/substitutionaryatonement.html
. . . by the way. . . Chuck Swindoll, who was quoted and relied upon in the first link I gave. . . is a well known evangelical Pastor, teacher, and author. A graduate of Dallas Theological.
Not only the idea of death being a separation is important to consider, but also. . . what it means to live. What it means that our lives are hid with Christ. The whole concept of eternal separation from God. . . wailing and gnashing of teeth. . . so to speak. What exactly is it we are saved from?? For now. . . all die a physical death. . . . our bodies and our minds are separated.
Was "soul sleep" a correct teaching? . . . .
That is why this topic is nearly impossible to really discuss here and somewhat pointless.
Many still believe in the ideas espoused by VP and other aberrant groups(NOT used as a pejorative!!). . . soul sleep, unitaianism, annihilationism . . .
These are not traditional Christian teachings.
I can see how one group of beliefs would lead to one conclusion. . . another concept a different conclusion. Makes perfect sense.
To me it is just another illustration of how far removed from traditional Christianity we really were. How all those teachings and most basic beliefs about God lead in two different directions.
What I also wonder about VP . . . . is why he was almost anxious to remove the symbol of the cross from our minds. We didn't wear crosses. . . we replaced it with the HS dove. . . . we removed the cross from the chapel at Emporia, and we were always ready to tell someone it was a rather macabre fixation. . . "If He had died in the electric chair. . . " :(
The symbol of the cross evokes reverence and awe in Christians. . . because of what was accomplished. If the bible is to be believed. . . it is the most significant event in human history. . . coreographed by God Himself. .. and all moments were leading to the work done there. . . mankind changed forever. . .
It must be significant what we understand about it. Doesn't that make sense?
But, I do believe these are questions we need to work out an answer for ourselves with sincere examination and humbleness before God. There is no quick easy and obvious fix
IMO. . . It is a foundation issue. . . pfal was a rotten foundational understanding.
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skyrider
Yeah.....blasphemy would sum it up quite well. <_<
Sure any twi elitist *could* have saved mankind with perfect believing........(shrug). Clearly, the scriptures show the alignment of God's perfect plan coming to fruition.......geneology, royal bloodline ties, sinless blood, born in Nazareth, confronting the Pharisees, prophecies coming to pass, all the Passover and Lamb references, total oneness with God, dying on the cross, etc. etc...............sure "any wayfer" could have lived that life.
Cheap grace.........cheap righteousness...........cheap doctrine.............cheap suits.
:P
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T-Bone
Yup Geisha & Skyrider – ditto to PFAL being a rotten foundation, cheap grace, cheap righteousness, cheap doctrine & cheap suits!
~~
Getting back to Leafytwiglet's opening post – I've been reviewing the gospels on Jesus' words from the cross…thinking and just doing some more speculating. In Mark 15:35 after Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1, some bystanders said He was calling for Elijah. In John 19:30 Jesus received the sour wine and said "It is finished!", bowed His head and gave up His spirit.
After reading Psalm 22 [which I pasted below – [chose NIV cuz it was the easiest to clean up the hyper-text stuff] I was just wondering…was Jesus quoting the entire Psalm. Maybe bystanders mistook His words for a whole lot of rambling by a delirious punch-drunk poor soul.
…I know – it's a bit of a stretch – just thinking about the last phrase in Psalm 22, "he has done it" equating with "it is finished". But instead of using the third person – Jesus states it in the sense of Himself accomplishing it. Though the Psalm applied immediately to David when it was written – it ultimately was fulfilled in Jesus at the cross. Imo, a very unusual Psalm – such contrast….from expressing hopelessness & abandonment in a horrible situation – to praising God for His help to others in times past.
Because the New Testament has about 15 messianic quotations and/or allusions to Psalm 22 some commentaries & study Bibles refer to it as the fifth gospel. I can see that for sure [now who was the fifth Beatle is probably a more debatable issue :) ].
Psalm 22 NIV
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
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leafytwiglet
T-bone do you know when psalm 22 was written time wise in David's life .
and it seems so much to mirror Christs time on the cross and directly leading up to it.
I am wondering too if Jesus Quoted the whole psalm....
Any way lots of food for thought here.
Oh and one more question that relates to all this is... where did VP get the "for this purpose I was spared" from because his track record of stealing other peoples works suggest he had to get it from some where else.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Yes, the valid and factual biblical material we have proof that VPW copied from bible researchers and teachers. However, the bad and useless stuff he perhaps made up himself. For example, who else do you know that teaches that the original sin was masterbation?
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waysider
The standard teaching in TWI was that Jesus had to have had perfect "believing" and never doubt for a second in order to pull off his feat. And the idea was that if we could perfect our "believing" in like manner, we could do the same thing. Does anyone see a huge problem with this? Well, for starters, the "law" of believing is bogus! This wasn't a promotion of what Jesus did. It was an infomercial for TWI doctrine. (specifically, the "law" of believing.) Therefore it's a moot point . Now, with that obstacle out of the way, who's to say he never had any doubts about anything? Maybe he actually said "Why have you forsaken me?" because that's how he really felt. Just a thought.
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T-Bone
From what I've picked up in some commentaries and what little I know of David's life – I think it's when Saul was after him…
Page 303 of Keil & Delitzsch Commentary of the Old Testament, Volume 5, Psalms by C.F. Keil & F. Delitzsch says:
"…It is a Davidic Psalm belonging to the time of the persecution by Saul. Ewald brings it down to the time preceding the destruction of Jerusalem, and Bauer to the time of the Exile…But it seems to be confirmed at every point, that David who was so persecuted by Saul, is the author…"
End of excerpt
~~
Page 167 & ff of Exploring the Psalms, Volume One, Psalms 1-88 by John Phillips says:
"…This psalm might have been written when David was cornered by Saul in the wilderness of Maon. Persecution by Saul had been fierce and David, scrambling place to place to keep out of his reach, was in desperate straits. David could easily have thought that even God had abandoned him, but soon learned otherwise, for a providential Philistine invasion of Israel at the other end of the country distracted Saul in the nick of time and forced him to call off the hunt (I Samuel 23:25-29).
The intense personal note on this psalm shows it was wrung out of David in some bitter experience. He described the situation graphically. He was pinned to one spot, his enemies gathered all around, deprived of his clothing, subjected to at least one form of torture (for his hands and feet have been wounded), absolutely friendless. Somewhere in the background were many friends, but even so his enemies were many and strong, his sufferings prolonged, and his mental and spiritual anguish intense. His chief pain, however, lay in the fact that God seemingly had abandoned him.
Christians have seen a vivid and realistic portrait of the Lord Jesus Christ in this psalm. The sufferer is evidently enduring the horrors of crucifixion. David never suffered any such thing – possibly never knew there was such a way to die.
Some of the hyperbole is really inspired prophecy as we can see when we compare what is written with the story of the crucifixion. Indeed, the Psalmist gives a more vivid description of the sufferings of Christ on the cross than do the authors of the gospels, none whom dwell on the horrors of crucifixion, which were too well known in their day to need elaboration…"
End of excerpts
~~
As far as where vp got the "for this purpose was I spared" thing… WordWolf and some of Grease Spot's other top notch "investigators" could probably nail it down for you…but off the top of my head I'm thinking…[if memory serves me right - he pulled the old "hey, someone else was thinking along the same lines as me too, what a coincidence" crap – like he did with Bullinger/4 crucified…] after vp suggested his version of the words from the cross in PFAL, he referred to The Holy Bible from Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by George Lamsa, quoting Matthew 27:46 "…My God, my God, for this I was spared". Lamsa has a footnote on the verse which reads "This was my destiny".
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geisha779
They say it is funny because it is true. . . . too true. . . Christians are to boast in the cross only. . . I think we may have missed that.
T-bone,
There is a great little book by John Piper. . . The Passion of Jesus Christ. He gives fifty reason why Jesus came to die. I have a copy and if you can't find one. . . you can have mine. . . my treat.
When Jesus cries out on the Cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" It is really paradoxical isn't it? One the one hand, it was God's purpose before the ages began. . . .on the other it was the will of the Lord to crush him, He has put Him to grief. Isaiah 53:10 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied. 53:11. . . an outpouring of His wrath. . . smitten of God. . . and yet. . . . it was a fragrant offering to God.
It was an incredible act of submission and trust by Jesus and reveals such an intense relationship between them . . . It is also a staggering display of God's amazing love for us.
God is nothing if not paradoxical. I like what John Piper says. . . "The wrath-bearer was infinitely loved." To paraphrase another comment. . . . God's love is not simple or sentimental. . . the terrible wonder of the love of God.
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leafytwiglet
Thanks T-bone..and Geisha
I am constantly stunned here when I realize how much (probably all) of VP's stuff was stolen and repackaged as his own with no credit to who the original author was. My heart sometimes aches over it.
So much misdirection and muddled ideas mixed with some truth ... IT is like a knot that you have to untangle to find the beautiful thread of God's word that this person twisted up for their own personal gain, that I foolishly followed with out much question because they presented it in what seemed at the time as a logical explanation.
And all compounded by my own lack of knowledge of the bible.
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leafytwiglet
Waysider, THanks also for that insight.. I guess I really was lucky that I was just a little twiglet and didn't get to hear that stuff.. Lucky that I left before more of the poisin of VP corrupted my brain. Plenty sure did in my short time there.
I am stunned at the sheer arrogance of it... :(
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JustThinking
Unless it was a question. If so, it would be "Peter, Peter, is that your house I see from here?"
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geisha779
Leafy,
I think the other thing we probably have to consider. . . . is WHO he actually plagerized. That is worth a look/see too. It is interesting to look at what ideas and teachings interested VP. In some ways(with hindsight) it is easy to see why he gravitated to what he did. That "Snapping" thread laid out some fascinating concepts. . . I guess it is up to us as individuals to investigate. . . unless we have just chucked the whole thing. . . . .like me
John Juedes also has a few articles. He has one on George M Lamsa. . . . . written for the Christian Research Institute. . CRI deals with many issues concerning Christian Cults.
http://www.abouttheway.org/
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RumRunner
Good catch!! Thanks!
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T-Bone
Got it, Geisha - I'll put Piper's book on my to-read list and will probably check it out of the library sometime....If I buy any more books Tonto will make me build an addition onto the house
.
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WordWolf
For me, there's 2 different issues.
1) What DID he say?
2) IF he said "Why have you forsaken me" (which is still under contention, but can be discussed separately
for the sake of discussion), what, EXACTLY, did that mean?
That is,
Was it an accurate statement-of-fact of the reality of that moment?
Was it a technically inaccurate statement that reflected exactly how he was feeling at that moment?
Was it an intentional quote from Psalms- and, if so, why was it quoted? (This brings us another branching of discussion...)
I think it would be perfectly acceptable to be screaming in pain, angry at God, and feel forsaken if one
was tortured to the standards of the day, then crucified by the standards of the day.
I have no guarantee this is WHAT HAPPENED, but I see it as a reasonable possibility.
This would mean he FELT that way, but-if his logic was functioning at all- he would have been the first to say that
was not an accurate report of the situation.
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brideofjc
Hi Geisha...good to see you posting again...
Blasphemy indeed. It's funny, today, I was talking with the Lord, and told Him, I sure could never have done what He did at Calvary!
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WordWolf
I say there's 3 types of people regarding this.
A) People who admit they could never have done that.
B) People who are in denial that they could never have done that.
C) People who lie through their teeth and claim they could have done that.
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Sunesis
Its been a Hard Days Night.... Beatles.
I bet, most of you here of my generation, could tell me what the next line is, we could probably sing the whole song together.
Signs, wonders, miracles - those things Christ did during his ministry, were for the Nation of Israel, proof Jesus was indeed the Messiah.
He said those words as he was dying on the cross... The first line of that amazing Psalm, the hearers knew the rest. The end of the Psalm shows him in total triumph.
My personal thinking is this was his last "sign" before he died, while he was alive, directed to the Jewish people, as to who he really was.
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Mark Sanguinetti
I think that is a good analysis Sunesis and it might be true.
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geisha779
Hi Sunesis,
I just wanted to say I am glad to see you here sister!!! I soooo enjoy reading your contributions. . . . One of the things that I think have gotten really missed in TWI is that the gospel is not really all about us getting saved. . . it is about Christ saving the world. It is interesting how you highlight who He came for first.
Hi Bride. . . good to see you too!!
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Sunesis
Good to see you too Geisha! I hope all is well :)
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Godisgoodalways
Interesting subject to discuss:
Not to over simplify but wouldn't Jesus have known what he was going to have to go through in order to redeem mankind? The OT has lots of details about what he would endure. So on the cross I would not think there would have been any confusion in his mind about why he was hanging there and why he would die. For me it appears foolish to think that he would question God by crying out Why? when he had walked into the whole thing fully aware of what was going to happen.
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