VPW, as far as working on these Aramaic projects himself, had NOTHING to do them - not with the translation, interlinear, or concordance. He was interested in producing them, however, because George Lamsa steered him in that direction, claiming Aramaic was the original written language of the scriptures. Other than supporting the work with his interest and using ministry funds to pay Corps people to work on these projects, VPW was not directly involved.
I know. I helped work on these projects in minor ways, doing editing and checking, and was part of the group who completed the Concordance in 1985. My training was primarily from Bernita Jess, the woman who "coordinated" Aramaic studies for years in TWI. There are other threads here on GSC about all this...
Dan Mc*&(%$, who is mentioned above, did not work on these projects while I was involved. He does have a degree from Unvi. of Chicago and focused on Aramaic, but did other textual research and was "stationed" at the Emporia campus, not HQ where these projects were done.
The other people besides me who did work on the Aramaic projects are people I'm not sure want their identies mentioned here. They had degrees and training in Syriac from the Univ. of Chicago. The translation involved in this lawsuit, as far as I know (it was completed after I resigned from the Research Team at HQ in 1986), was not plagiarized. From what I've seen on the Internet at various sites, it is respected as a decent research tool for those interested in such things.
Cheers!
I'm writing this additional bit to clarify what I said above. First, I'd like to say my name is Charlene Edge. While in The Way, my maiden name was Charlene Lamy; my married name was Charlene Bishop. I graduated from the Second Way Corps in 1973.
Credits: In the above post, I did not state the names of those who worked on the this Concordance because I did not feel comfortable doing so. My reason was NOT because they are trying to hide their identities or are not proud of their work. On the contrary! It is a work to be proud of! I simply did not have their consent on hand to name them.
First, many of us know that Bernita Jess began the Aramaic/Syriac work for The Way in the early 1970s. Over the years, beginning in 1972 while in the Way Corps when VPW assigned me to work with Bernita, I began to help her in minor ways. As the Corps groups grew in numbers, so did Bernita's helpers.
The Concordance published in August 1985. By this time, the primary person responsible for bringing this Concordance to completion was Joe Wise, an 8th Way Corps graduate. He told me I could release his name here. Joe earned his Masters Degree in Near Eastern Studies from the University of Chicago, gaining this specific academic training in order to work on the Aramaic/Syriac projects at The Way International. An article came out in The Way Magazine, July/August 1985 that describes the project and states the names of contributors.
Frankly, it was painful to find out that so many people, both in and out of The Way, do not know who is responsible for that research publication other than the fact that The Way International published it. To the best of my remembrance, The Way ministry put no names on their book publications other than VPW's or Walter Cummins's, at least while I was there. In the front matter of the Concordance, it simply states, "Edited by The Way International Research Team." Since members of the team changed over the years, no one would know which members did the work.
A little more background: About a year before its publication, Bernita had some family issues that took her away from the project for awhile, namely the unfortunate death of her husband, George Jess. Then Joe Wise, because of his academic training and ability, assumed the leading role.
I hope this helps the discussion. You can contact me through my profile on this web site if you have any further questions.
I'm writing this additional bit to clarify what I said above.
<snip>
I hope this helps the discussion. You can contact me through my profile on this web site if you have any further questions.
Cheers!
Charlene a.k.a. Penworks
Charlene,
Thank you for the clarification and your hard work. I still own all of the volumes and have used them on many occasions. One of your fellow 2nd corps grads was a friend and filled me in on the hard work that went into the project. One great use I found was to read parts of it to my kids when they were younger. King James is a bit much for kids but your translations were so much more approachable.
Thank you for the clarification and your hard work. I still own all of the volumes and have used them on many occasions. One of your fellow 2nd corps grads was a friend and filled me in on the hard work that went into the project. One great use I found was to read parts of it to my kids when they were younger. King James is a bit much for kids but your translations were so much more approachable.
JT
Dear JT,
Thanks for your comment. I'm glad you enjoy using the Interlinear, although I think we're talking about two different publications. You are referring to the Interlinear, I'm talking about the Concordance.
The Concordance was not the translation of the N.T. but the other one-book publication that came out in 1985 several years before the line-by-line Interlinear translation that you have in several volumes. It's like Strong's or Young's Concordance that lists words, their definition, and where they appear in the text. There's a companion volumne that is English to Syriac (Aramaic) that we also produced that would help people use the Concordance.
Now, the translation that appears in the Interlinear you have began in full force after the Concordance came out in August 1985. Joe Wise did all the translation for it except of the Book of Revelation. I only helped in minor ways by checking and editing a little bit.
So why did he stop at the Book of Revelation in the translation for the Interlinear?
In March 1986 LCM told Walter Cummins to tell Joe he must discontinue working on the project; that as of August 1986 he would no longer have a job at HQ because he was "too academic." At the time, the ministry was in an uproar after Chris Geer read his Passing of the Patriarch in April and everything was being - how would you say - challenged? In my opinion, this was a terrible mistake.
Keep in mind, this is my view of what happened. But I was in the research dept. from Aug 1984- Aug 1986 and worked on this project.
When Joe had to leave in August 1986, I resigned from research. This is a long story I do not plan to write on this web site. Suffice it to say, another Corps grad was brought on staff to finish the translation for the Interlinear. I personally do not know whether that person made any changes to the translation that Joe had already written.
So the lawsuit cited at the beginning of this post that TWI is bringing against the group in Texas asserts that they stole the translation (the one you have in several volumes) that we originally worked on. What that final translation that was published contains exactly, I do not know because I was not there to see whether the other Corps person who came after us changed Joe's translation or not. And I do not have a copy of Joe's original translation.
Hope this clarifies things for you. Contact me any time.
Penworks, in a thread from 2 years ago, someone said he was in touch with Jim J. He (Frank) still posts here, so maybe if you PM him he can give you an update.
In order to verify, you need to know where she lived the last few years. The attorney may have used the interactive SSDI, which shows someone by that name dying in Illinois in 1997. That was the only name that popped up, by the way.
This is the Research Geek. I have not posted for a very long time, but I thought it appropriate to make a comment on this thread. Linda Z is correct. I was on the research team, but I did not work on the Aramaic project.
Having read the entire thread, I must comment about the unfortunate firing of Joe Wise by lcm because he was "too academic". I have the highest respect for Joe and the rest of the Aramaic team who worked on the Aramaic reference books. The "too academic" really means that he and the rest would not compromise their academic standards to cowtow to the demands of the twi hierarchy that they not publish something contrary to that which was taught by twi. (For example, their conclusion regarding Eli, Eli lamana sabacthani does not coroborate Lamsa's Bible or what was taught in PFAL. They simply, honestly could not prove twi's position on that verse.) They were taught by the best in the field, Dr. Arthur Voobis, in Chicago. At the time, their work on the Aramaic NT was some of the best available. It is true that the books published are highly sought in the Academic community as reference books. It was really stupid that twi stopped printing them. It was a political decision, not a godly one...
I do not know all the details but I would have no trouble believing that because twi stopped printing their Aramaic reference books probably was what prompted this other person that they are suing to try to fill the demand and publish his stuff. The Aramaic work published by twi was probably the greatest academic achievement of the entire existence of the twi ministry, outshining all their other books published, but because under lcm they really were not a "research ministry" as they claimed, they had no clue as to the real value of what their research team had produced.
The Aramaic work published by twi was probably the greatest academic achievement of the entire existence of the twi ministry, outshining all their other books published, but because under lcm they really were not a "research ministry" as they claimed, they had no clue as to the real value of what their research team had produced.
Ain't that the truth.
Nor did they have a clue as to the real value of all the skills brought in by other people, in performing arts, in tenderness for people, in anything.
Were they ever a real "research" ministry? Or did they just grab bits of interesting slightly controversial material from other sources (Lamsa, etc) and pass it off as new light?
I don't see why the team's individual abilities to research can't have been God-given - especially since there seems to be lasting benefit. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that perhaps some members of the team had the gift ministry (should you believe in such things) of Teachers. But of course to acknowledge that others had this gift ministry would detract from the glory of the self-appointed teacher.
The Aramaic work published by twi was probably the greatest academic achievement of the entire existence of the twi ministry, outshining all their other books published, but because under lcm they really were not a "research ministry" as they claimed, they had no clue as to the real value of what their research team had produced.
WHOA!......."under lcm they really were not a 'research ministry' as they claimed"...
What about UNDER WIERWILLE they really were not a research ministry? Even a GS-poster who was ON twi's research team claimed that wierwille stifled or skewed the 'research.' Or, what about the wholesale plagairism? Is that 'research?'
Could it be that some are STILL trying to sell the wierwille-adulation?
Add a couple of words...."under lcm"....and the agenda becomes clear.
WHOA!......."under lcm they really were not a 'research ministry' as they claimed"...
What about UNDER WIERWILLE they really were not a research ministry? Even a GS-poster who was ON twi's research team claimed that wierwille stifled or skewed the 'research.' Or, what about the wholesale plagairism? Is that 'research?'
Could it be that some are STILL trying to sell the wierwille-adulation?
Add a couple of words...."under lcm"....and the agenda becomes clear.
:blink:
Hi everyone,
This is Charlene (Bishop) Edge, former Research Team member 1984-1986 (Aramaic projects). The discussion Skyrider cites can be found at this GSC topic, "what scripture refers to" at:
This is Charlene (Bishop) Edge, former Research Team member 1984-1986 (Aramaic projects). The discussion Skyrider cites can be found at this GSC topic, "what scripture refers to" at:
A little more of the story behind the making of the Aramaic Interlinear (not the Concordance published in Aug. 1985, but the Translation which came afterwards):
I seem to be a good example of a practice often conducted at TWI: "being hired not on the basis of ability" but of commitment to the org. Invited to be on the research team from 1984-87, I came on board with no college degree, no formal training in research methods or languages of the texts, other than in-house Aramaic classes taught to the Way Corps and some Aramaic tasks I had helped with over the years. But to say I was competent to actually produce a translation of the N.T. is ridiculous.
When Joe Wise, who WAS competent and had earned his degree from the Univ. of Chicago in Near Eastern Studies, and who was responsible for the translation was fired from that task in 1986 with the reason being "too academic," I went to W@lter Cum@ins and asked about this, greatly dismayed and upset about this out-of-nowhere decision (this is an understatement). W. Cum@ins said it was LCM's "order." I asked who would finish it! He then looked at me and in complete seriousness said, "I was thinking you could finish it." After I recovered my composure from a hearty laugh, I realized he was not laughing. I had to explain I did not have the expertise to handle such a task, I had no training in such a complicated undertaking as translating! The odd and shocking thing was, W. Cum@ins had known me since 1970 and was very familiar with my skill level. It seems that competency was not always favored over assumed loyalty to TWI.
After I resigned, another Corps grad came in off the field to finish the interlinear. Today, he continues VPW's research methods and teachings, etc. and runs a TWI offshoot in the D.C. area...
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GeorgeStGeorge
No offense. It was my mistake.
George
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penworks
I'm writing this additional bit to clarify what I said above. First, I'd like to say my name is Charlene Edge. While in The Way, my maiden name was Charlene Lamy; my married name was Charlene Bishop. I graduated from the Second Way Corps in 1973.
Credits: In the above post, I did not state the names of those who worked on the this Concordance because I did not feel comfortable doing so. My reason was NOT because they are trying to hide their identities or are not proud of their work. On the contrary! It is a work to be proud of! I simply did not have their consent on hand to name them.
First, many of us know that Bernita Jess began the Aramaic/Syriac work for The Way in the early 1970s. Over the years, beginning in 1972 while in the Way Corps when VPW assigned me to work with Bernita, I began to help her in minor ways. As the Corps groups grew in numbers, so did Bernita's helpers.
The Concordance published in August 1985. By this time, the primary person responsible for bringing this Concordance to completion was Joe Wise, an 8th Way Corps graduate. He told me I could release his name here. Joe earned his Masters Degree in Near Eastern Studies from the University of Chicago, gaining this specific academic training in order to work on the Aramaic/Syriac projects at The Way International. An article came out in The Way Magazine, July/August 1985 that describes the project and states the names of contributors.
Frankly, it was painful to find out that so many people, both in and out of The Way, do not know who is responsible for that research publication other than the fact that The Way International published it. To the best of my remembrance, The Way ministry put no names on their book publications other than VPW's or Walter Cummins's, at least while I was there. In the front matter of the Concordance, it simply states, "Edited by The Way International Research Team." Since members of the team changed over the years, no one would know which members did the work.
A little more background: About a year before its publication, Bernita had some family issues that took her away from the project for awhile, namely the unfortunate death of her husband, George Jess. Then Joe Wise, because of his academic training and ability, assumed the leading role.
I hope this helps the discussion. You can contact me through my profile on this web site if you have any further questions.
Cheers!
Charlene a.k.a. Penworks
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JustThinking
Charlene,
Thank you for the clarification and your hard work. I still own all of the volumes and have used them on many occasions. One of your fellow 2nd corps grads was a friend and filled me in on the hard work that went into the project. One great use I found was to read parts of it to my kids when they were younger. King James is a bit much for kids but your translations were so much more approachable.
JT
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penworks
Dear JT,
Thanks for your comment. I'm glad you enjoy using the Interlinear, although I think we're talking about two different publications. You are referring to the Interlinear, I'm talking about the Concordance.
The Concordance was not the translation of the N.T. but the other one-book publication that came out in 1985 several years before the line-by-line Interlinear translation that you have in several volumes. It's like Strong's or Young's Concordance that lists words, their definition, and where they appear in the text. There's a companion volumne that is English to Syriac (Aramaic) that we also produced that would help people use the Concordance.
Now, the translation that appears in the Interlinear you have began in full force after the Concordance came out in August 1985. Joe Wise did all the translation for it except of the Book of Revelation. I only helped in minor ways by checking and editing a little bit.
So why did he stop at the Book of Revelation in the translation for the Interlinear?
In March 1986 LCM told Walter Cummins to tell Joe he must discontinue working on the project; that as of August 1986 he would no longer have a job at HQ because he was "too academic." At the time, the ministry was in an uproar after Chris Geer read his Passing of the Patriarch in April and everything was being - how would you say - challenged? In my opinion, this was a terrible mistake.
Keep in mind, this is my view of what happened. But I was in the research dept. from Aug 1984- Aug 1986 and worked on this project.
When Joe had to leave in August 1986, I resigned from research. This is a long story I do not plan to write on this web site. Suffice it to say, another Corps grad was brought on staff to finish the translation for the Interlinear. I personally do not know whether that person made any changes to the translation that Joe had already written.
So the lawsuit cited at the beginning of this post that TWI is bringing against the group in Texas asserts that they stole the translation (the one you have in several volumes) that we originally worked on. What that final translation that was published contains exactly, I do not know because I was not there to see whether the other Corps person who came after us changed Joe's translation or not. And I do not have a copy of Joe's original translation.
Hope this clarifies things for you. Contact me any time.
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penworks
Today I can add another name of a contributor to the work on the Aramaic Concordance: Gertrude Paulson. 8th Corps graduate.
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waysider
You reported the news in good faith that the source was reliable.
Is that such a bad thing?
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Linda Z
Penworks, in a thread from 2 years ago, someone said he was in touch with Jim J. He (Frank) still posts here, so maybe if you PM him he can give you an update.
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waysider
According to THIS, someone named Bernita Jess, in Midland MI, contributed to the McCain campaign in March of 2008.
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Watered Garden
In order to verify, you need to know where she lived the last few years. The attorney may have used the interactive SSDI, which shows someone by that name dying in Illinois in 1997. That was the only name that popped up, by the way.
That's about the only suggestion I would have.
WG
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Research Geek
Hello,
This is the Research Geek. I have not posted for a very long time, but I thought it appropriate to make a comment on this thread. Linda Z is correct. I was on the research team, but I did not work on the Aramaic project.
Having read the entire thread, I must comment about the unfortunate firing of Joe Wise by lcm because he was "too academic". I have the highest respect for Joe and the rest of the Aramaic team who worked on the Aramaic reference books. The "too academic" really means that he and the rest would not compromise their academic standards to cowtow to the demands of the twi hierarchy that they not publish something contrary to that which was taught by twi. (For example, their conclusion regarding Eli, Eli lamana sabacthani does not coroborate Lamsa's Bible or what was taught in PFAL. They simply, honestly could not prove twi's position on that verse.) They were taught by the best in the field, Dr. Arthur Voobis, in Chicago. At the time, their work on the Aramaic NT was some of the best available. It is true that the books published are highly sought in the Academic community as reference books. It was really stupid that twi stopped printing them. It was a political decision, not a godly one...
I do not know all the details but I would have no trouble believing that because twi stopped printing their Aramaic reference books probably was what prompted this other person that they are suing to try to fill the demand and publish his stuff. The Aramaic work published by twi was probably the greatest academic achievement of the entire existence of the twi ministry, outshining all their other books published, but because under lcm they really were not a "research ministry" as they claimed, they had no clue as to the real value of what their research team had produced.
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Twinky
Ain't that the truth.
Nor did they have a clue as to the real value of all the skills brought in by other people, in performing arts, in tenderness for people, in anything.
Were they ever a real "research" ministry? Or did they just grab bits of interesting slightly controversial material from other sources (Lamsa, etc) and pass it off as new light?
I don't see why the team's individual abilities to research can't have been God-given - especially since there seems to be lasting benefit. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that perhaps some members of the team had the gift ministry (should you believe in such things) of Teachers. But of course to acknowledge that others had this gift ministry would detract from the glory of the self-appointed teacher.
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skyrider
WHOA!......."under lcm they really were not a 'research ministry' as they claimed"...
What about UNDER WIERWILLE they really were not a research ministry? Even a GS-poster who was ON twi's research team claimed that wierwille stifled or skewed the 'research.' Or, what about the wholesale plagairism? Is that 'research?'
Could it be that some are STILL trying to sell the wierwille-adulation?
Add a couple of words...."under lcm"....and the agenda becomes clear.
:blink:
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penworks
Hi everyone,
This is Charlene (Bishop) Edge, former Research Team member 1984-1986 (Aramaic projects). The discussion Skyrider cites can be found at this GSC topic, "what scripture refers to" at:
VPW research methods
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penworks
A little more of the story behind the making of the Aramaic Interlinear (not the Concordance published in Aug. 1985, but the Translation which came afterwards):
I seem to be a good example of a practice often conducted at TWI: "being hired not on the basis of ability" but of commitment to the org. Invited to be on the research team from 1984-87, I came on board with no college degree, no formal training in research methods or languages of the texts, other than in-house Aramaic classes taught to the Way Corps and some Aramaic tasks I had helped with over the years. But to say I was competent to actually produce a translation of the N.T. is ridiculous.
When Joe Wise, who WAS competent and had earned his degree from the Univ. of Chicago in Near Eastern Studies, and who was responsible for the translation was fired from that task in 1986 with the reason being "too academic," I went to W@lter Cum@ins and asked about this, greatly dismayed and upset about this out-of-nowhere decision (this is an understatement). W. Cum@ins said it was LCM's "order." I asked who would finish it! He then looked at me and in complete seriousness said, "I was thinking you could finish it." After I recovered my composure from a hearty laugh, I realized he was not laughing. I had to explain I did not have the expertise to handle such a task, I had no training in such a complicated undertaking as translating! The odd and shocking thing was, W. Cum@ins had known me since 1970 and was very familiar with my skill level. It seems that competency was not always favored over assumed loyalty to TWI.
After I resigned, another Corps grad came in off the field to finish the interlinear. Today, he continues VPW's research methods and teachings, etc. and runs a TWI offshoot in the D.C. area...
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