"It recently has been alleged that the HRV is a plagiarism of the Way Interlinear Bible. Researcher Kathryn Kern contacted the people involved, and has done comparison of Trimm's HRV with passages of the Way International Interlinear."
"It recently has been alleged that the HRV is a plagiarism of the Way Interlinear Bible. Researcher Kathryn Kern contacted the people involved, and has done comparison of Trimm's HRV with passages of the Way International Interlinear."
*reads*
The guy claims a doctorate, but his "doctorate" is from an uncredited source.
In other words, I'm twice the doctor he is, because 2 different Greasespotters declared me one.
Hey, if one uncredited source is considered to count, then they all should count... :)
Guy gets a doctorate from a degree mill,
then plagiarizes the work of others and sells it.
Why is twi disapproving of this? It supposedly was just FINE when vpw did both-
in fact, he based his entire career on plagiarizing the work of others, probably moreso
than this new guy. You'd think they'd consider this guy vpw's REAL successor...
"James Trimm's Hebrew Roots Version (HRV) title page stated he translated Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts for his New Testament.
"A translation of the "New Testament" taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts."
James Trimm announced various times on various forums, such as his SANJ forum at Yahoo:
# 411 From: James Trimm <jstrimm@n...>
Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 0:49pm
Subject: HRV Bible Coming Soon
... The HRV translation of the New Testament is translated out of the ORIGINAL HEBREW AND ARAMAIC and is taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic Manuscripts NOT THE GREEK....
# 411 From: James Trimm <jstrimm@n...>
Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:27pm
Subject: Restoring Original Hebrew/Aramaic NT
....Unlike most translations this edition is not rooted in a Greek Hellenistic text. Instead this translation seeks to understand the text of the New Testament from the languages in which it was originally written. This is important because there are some passages in the NT which do not make sense at all in Greek, but only begin to make sense when we look at them in Hebrew and Aramaic:.." 1
James Trimm also stated that for the New Testament he used, " the Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts rather than the Greek. The HRV reaches back to the original text of the Tanak by making use not only of the Masoretic Text, but of the Massorah, the Aramaic Pedangta Tanak, the Hebrew Samaritan Pentateuch, the Greek Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls." And , "The HRV "New Testament" text is taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts. (Shem Tob, DuTillet and Muster Hebrew Matthew; Munster Hebrew Hebrews; The Old Syriac Aramaic Gospels; The Aramaic Pedangta NT and the Crawford Aramaic Revelation.) and has over 1,700 footnotes. "...The HRV Tanak it translated primarily from the Hebrew Masoretic Text contains many footnotes giving important alternate readings from the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts; the Samaritan Pentateuch; the Greek Septuagent; the Aramaic Pedangta Tanak and the Aramaic Targums." 2
Trimm posted a page of Sources which supposedly revealed where he obtained his documentation. 3 After consulting with professors regarding James Trimm's stated Sources for "translating" the HRV, it was stated to this writer, that it is obvious that in order to even read/utilize the listed source texts one would have to know, "at a minimum, Hebrew, Syriac, and Greek (to be able to judge the accuracy of the Hebrew and/or Syriac translation of the Greek NT)."
These are the opinions, collectively, of real professors who head Religious Departments in major Universities, who have doctorates in Middle East studies and so on. These are the academics who know what would be needed in order to translate a Bible and also be able to utilize the resources James Trimm claims to have used.
It's been stated by people fluent in Aramaic and Hebrew that James is not in the least fluent in those languages. Some have posted various writings and asked him to translate on the spot, and he has been unable to. Nor can he dialogue in those languages.
What James failed to list in his translation resources was The Way International Bible. James Trimm also neglected to mention that in 1993 he put out a request on the internet, for a copy of that Version."
Sounds like just another peddler of illicit goods.. And if he received his information from the source the lawsuit claims, his goods are pretty worthless at that!
Sounds like just another peddler of illicit goods.. And if he received his information from the source the lawsuit claims, his goods are pretty worthless at that!
Actually, I've heard from rabidly anti-twi exwayfers that twi's Aramaic Interlinear and the other Aramaic book they published (I forget what it's called) are highly regarded and sought after. Other of twi's books might have been plagiarized, but those weren't. Some genuine scholars (who were university-trained in Aramaic or had spent decades studying it) spent years working on them. I don't think VPW had much to do with their content, and I'm sure LCM had nothing to do with it.
I wouldn't know firsthand if it's true that they're good because I never owned them or read them, and even if I had, my exposure to Biblical Aramaic amounted to maybe 4 whole weeks of classes in the Corps. So I'm hardly an authority, but I have heard from a few people who are into studying Biblical languages and such that they're well done. *shrug*
Actually, I've heard from rabidly anti-twi exwayfers that twi's Aramaic Interlinear and the other Aramaic book they published (I forget what it's called) are highly regarded and sought after. Other of twi's books might have been plagiarized, but those weren't. Some genuine scholars (who were university-trained in Aramaic or had spent decades studying it) spent years working on them. I don't think VPW had much to do with their content, and I'm sure LCM had nothing to do with it.
This is my understanding too. Didn't Dan (whatisname) study at the University of Chicago? Got his Masters or Doctorate or something ... (no Doc Vicster, him).
VPW, as far as working on these Aramaic projects himself, had NOTHING to do them - not with the translation, interlinear, or concordance. He was interested in producing them, however, because George Lamsa steered him in that direction, claiming Aramaic was the original written language of the scriptures. Other than supporting the work with his interest and using ministry funds to pay Corps people to work on these projects, VPW was not directly involved.
I know. I helped work on these projects in minor ways, doing editing and checking, and was part of the group who completed the Concordance in 1985. My training was primarily from Bernita Jess, the woman who "coordinated" Aramaic studies for years in TWI. There are other threads here on GSC about all this...
Dan Mc*&(%$, who is mentioned above, did not work on these projects while I was involved. He does have a degree from Unvi. of Chicago and focused on Aramaic, but did other textual research and was "stationed" at the Emporia campus, not HQ where these projects were done.
The other people besides me who did work on the Aramaic projects are people I'm not sure want their identies mentioned here. They had degrees and training in Syriac from the Univ. of Chicago. The translation involved in this lawsuit, as far as I know (it was completed after I resigned from the Research Team at HQ in 1986), was not plagiarized. From what I've seen on the Internet at various sites, it is respected as a decent research tool for those interested in such things.
Penworks, thanks for confirming and clarifying what I thought I remembered. At my age you can never be too certain. :lol:
By the way, we must have worked together, or at least been acquainted, since I was in Way Pub from 82-86 and had fairly frequent contact with the Research Dept. on the material we edited and they reviewed. I'll PM you.
I have a set of the interlinears and use them. They really are quite good. I'm surprised no one noticed that the translations in them often conflicted with what was taught that the Hebrew said in classes and Sunday teachings.
I have a set of the interlinears and use them. They really are quite good. I'm surprised no one noticed that the translations in them often conflicted with what was taught that the Hebrew said in classes and Sunday teachings.
IIRC,
the only divergence we ever discussed hasn't come up in a while....
That vpw, in pfal, insisted that "Eli, Eli lamana shabachthani" could not POSSIBLY be a question because one of the words
(I forget if it was "lemana" or "shabachthani") was NEVER used in a question, only in declarative statements.....
....but the twi Aramaic Interlinear renders it a rhetorical QUESTION.
I know who "Research Geek" is and he did work in Greek, he did not work on these Aramaic projects.
Didn't Mike G*d*** work on this project too? I seem to remember him going back to school at U of Chicago for Aramaiac studies prior to him leaving twi. Sorry if I'm asking about someone who might not want their name associated. But those are cool interlinears, and some of that work influenced other stuff that's finding it's way into good Bible software now.
Didn't Mike G*d*** work on this project too? I seem to remember him going back to school at U of Chicago for Aramaiac studies prior to him leaving twi. Sorry if I'm asking about someone who might not want their name associated. But those are cool interlinears, and some of that work influenced other stuff that's finding it's way into good Bible software now.
He did go to Univ. of Chicago but focused mostly on Greek. He did not work on these Aramaic projects.
If that is so What actually did he say?? Was I spared for this Purpose??? or My God why have you left me???
Sorry probably needs to be another thread.
As in star Trek I will make it so!
I don't think we'll ever know for sure what he said. The records of what he said were written long after the fact...but in my opinion, I am more inclined to think he said Why has thou forsaken me? if he indeed said anything at all. I've not seen any support for "spared" in any text...
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TheHighWay
Well, here is that group's home page: http://www.nazarene.net/
And according to this guy, our bogus ministry is sueing a bogus minister...
http://www.seekgod.ca/trimmdoc.htm
http://www.seekgod.ca/yeshiva.htm
Wonder what the heck twi has against him?
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TheHighWay
Oh, here you go... looks like this might be what it is about: http://www.seekgod.ca/trfactor2.htm
"It recently has been alleged that the HRV is a plagiarism of the Way Interlinear Bible. Researcher Kathryn Kern contacted the people involved, and has done comparison of Trimm's HRV with passages of the Way International Interlinear."
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doojable
When did twi come up with its own interlinear Bible? I remember them using one put out by Zondervan.
What's the HRV? (Does it stand for Hebrew Revised Version?
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WordWolf
*reads*
The guy claims a doctorate, but his "doctorate" is from an uncredited source.
In other words, I'm twice the doctor he is, because 2 different Greasespotters declared me one.
Hey, if one uncredited source is considered to count, then they all should count... :)
Guy gets a doctorate from a degree mill,
then plagiarizes the work of others and sells it.
Why is twi disapproving of this? It supposedly was just FINE when vpw did both-
in fact, he based his entire career on plagiarizing the work of others, probably moreso
than this new guy. You'd think they'd consider this guy vpw's REAL successor...
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WordWolf
twi's Aramaic interlinear was made during the late 1980s, along with a Word-Study Concordance as a companion.
"What's the HRV?"
Gotta follow the links...
http://www.seekgod.ca/trfactor2.htm
"James Trimm's Hebrew Roots Version (HRV) title page stated he translated Ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts for his New Testament.
"A translation of the "New Testament" taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts."
James Trimm announced various times on various forums, such as his SANJ forum at Yahoo:
# 411 From: James Trimm <jstrimm@n...>
Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 0:49pm
Subject: HRV Bible Coming Soon
... The HRV translation of the New Testament is translated out of the ORIGINAL HEBREW AND ARAMAIC and is taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic Manuscripts NOT THE GREEK....
# 411 From: James Trimm <jstrimm@n...>
Date: Wed Apr 30, 2003 1:27pm
Subject: Restoring Original Hebrew/Aramaic NT
....Unlike most translations this edition is not rooted in a Greek Hellenistic text. Instead this translation seeks to understand the text of the New Testament from the languages in which it was originally written. This is important because there are some passages in the NT which do not make sense at all in Greek, but only begin to make sense when we look at them in Hebrew and Aramaic:.." 1
James Trimm also stated that for the New Testament he used, " the Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts rather than the Greek. The HRV reaches back to the original text of the Tanak by making use not only of the Masoretic Text, but of the Massorah, the Aramaic Pedangta Tanak, the Hebrew Samaritan Pentateuch, the Greek Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls." And , "The HRV "New Testament" text is taken from ancient Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts. (Shem Tob, DuTillet and Muster Hebrew Matthew; Munster Hebrew Hebrews; The Old Syriac Aramaic Gospels; The Aramaic Pedangta NT and the Crawford Aramaic Revelation.) and has over 1,700 footnotes. "...The HRV Tanak it translated primarily from the Hebrew Masoretic Text contains many footnotes giving important alternate readings from the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts; the Samaritan Pentateuch; the Greek Septuagent; the Aramaic Pedangta Tanak and the Aramaic Targums." 2
Trimm posted a page of Sources which supposedly revealed where he obtained his documentation. 3 After consulting with professors regarding James Trimm's stated Sources for "translating" the HRV, it was stated to this writer, that it is obvious that in order to even read/utilize the listed source texts one would have to know, "at a minimum, Hebrew, Syriac, and Greek (to be able to judge the accuracy of the Hebrew and/or Syriac translation of the Greek NT)."
These are the opinions, collectively, of real professors who head Religious Departments in major Universities, who have doctorates in Middle East studies and so on. These are the academics who know what would be needed in order to translate a Bible and also be able to utilize the resources James Trimm claims to have used.
It's been stated by people fluent in Aramaic and Hebrew that James is not in the least fluent in those languages. Some have posted various writings and asked him to translate on the spot, and he has been unable to. Nor can he dialogue in those languages.
What James failed to list in his translation resources was The Way International Bible. James Trimm also neglected to mention that in 1993 he put out a request on the internet, for a copy of that Version."
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now I see
I found a volume of twi's Aramaic interlinear in a used bookstore once.
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TrustAndObey
Sounds like just another peddler of illicit goods.. And if he received his information from the source the lawsuit claims, his goods are pretty worthless at that!
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leafytwiglet
Okay the irony of this is just too dog gone rich not to savor and enjoy it.. HE plagiarized a plagiarizer and now there is a lawsuit.
Some how I keep hearing in my head what goes around comes around! O-o
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waysider
"Yes, Your Honor, there was snow on those gas pumps."
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
to all of the above
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Linda Z
Actually, I've heard from rabidly anti-twi exwayfers that twi's Aramaic Interlinear and the other Aramaic book they published (I forget what it's called) are highly regarded and sought after. Other of twi's books might have been plagiarized, but those weren't. Some genuine scholars (who were university-trained in Aramaic or had spent decades studying it) spent years working on them. I don't think VPW had much to do with their content, and I'm sure LCM had nothing to do with it.
I wouldn't know firsthand if it's true that they're good because I never owned them or read them, and even if I had, my exposure to Biblical Aramaic amounted to maybe 4 whole weeks of classes in the Corps. So I'm hardly an authority, but I have heard from a few people who are into studying Biblical languages and such that they're well done. *shrug*
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TheHighWay
This is my understanding too. Didn't Dan (whatisname) study at the University of Chicago? Got his Masters or Doctorate or something ... (no Doc Vicster, him).
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penworks
VPW, as far as working on these Aramaic projects himself, had NOTHING to do them - not with the translation, interlinear, or concordance. He was interested in producing them, however, because George Lamsa steered him in that direction, claiming Aramaic was the original written language of the scriptures. Other than supporting the work with his interest and using ministry funds to pay Corps people to work on these projects, VPW was not directly involved.
I know. I helped work on these projects in minor ways, doing editing and checking, and was part of the group who completed the Concordance in 1985. My training was primarily from Bernita Jess, the woman who "coordinated" Aramaic studies for years in TWI. There are other threads here on GSC about all this...
Dan Mc*&(%$, who is mentioned above, did not work on these projects while I was involved. He does have a degree from Unvi. of Chicago and focused on Aramaic, but did other textual research and was "stationed" at the Emporia campus, not HQ where these projects were done.
The other people besides me who did work on the Aramaic projects are people I'm not sure want their identies mentioned here. They had degrees and training in Syriac from the Univ. of Chicago. The translation involved in this lawsuit, as far as I know (it was completed after I resigned from the Research Team at HQ in 1986), was not plagiarized. From what I've seen on the Internet at various sites, it is respected as a decent research tool for those interested in such things.
Cheers!
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Linda Z
Penworks, thanks for confirming and clarifying what I thought I remembered. At my age you can never be too certain. :lol:
By the way, we must have worked together, or at least been acquainted, since I was in Way Pub from 82-86 and had fairly frequent contact with the Research Dept. on the material we edited and they reviewed. I'll PM you.
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geisha779
http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/rvw_aramaic.htm
http://www.seekgod.ca/trfactor2.htm
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Keith
I have a set of the interlinears and use them. They really are quite good. I'm surprised no one noticed that the translations in them often conflicted with what was taught that the Hebrew said in classes and Sunday teachings.
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WordWolf
IIRC,
the only divergence we ever discussed hasn't come up in a while....
That vpw, in pfal, insisted that "Eli, Eli lamana shabachthani" could not POSSIBLY be a question because one of the words
(I forget if it was "lemana" or "shabachthani") was NEVER used in a question, only in declarative statements.....
....but the twi Aramaic Interlinear renders it a rhetorical QUESTION.
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GeorgeStGeorge
If I'm not mistaken, the GS poster who goes by "Research Geek" was responsible for a large part of the work.
George
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Linda Z
I'm not sure, George. I don't think Aramaic was his "thing," but I could be wrong.
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leafytwiglet
If that is so What actually did he say?? Was I spared for this Purpose??? or My God why have you left me???
Sorry probably needs to be another thread.
As in star Trek I will make it so!
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penworks
I know who "Research Geek" is and he did work in Greek, he did not work on these Aramaic projects.
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GeorgeStGeorge
All righty, then... :)
George
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chockfull
Didn't Mike G*d*** work on this project too? I seem to remember him going back to school at U of Chicago for Aramaiac studies prior to him leaving twi. Sorry if I'm asking about someone who might not want their name associated. But those are cool interlinears, and some of that work influenced other stuff that's finding it's way into good Bible software now.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
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penworks
He did go to Univ. of Chicago but focused mostly on Greek. He did not work on these Aramaic projects.
I don't think we'll ever know for sure what he said. The records of what he said were written long after the fact...but in my opinion, I am more inclined to think he said Why has thou forsaken me? if he indeed said anything at all. I've not seen any support for "spared" in any text...
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