And Dooj, your observations don't seem very factual to me right now. Sorry to have to tell you this.
My point is why do you want to discuss any body of knowledge just to prove something wrong when you don't like the particular body of knowledge in the first place? If you want to find something wrong with TWI's doctrine then do some actual bible study and specifically point to the places from the bible where they are wrong. How hard is that?
And Dooj, your observations don't seem very factual to me right now. Sorry to have to tell you this.
Don't be sorry. I don't hang any dreams on your opinions of my observations. This is a discussion - discuss away.
My point is why do you want to discuss any body of knowledge just to prove something wrong when you don't like the particular body of knowledge in the first place? If you want to find something wrong with TWI's doctrine then do some actual bible study and specifically point to the places from the bible where they are wrong. How hard is that?
Are you giving me orders, boy?
Are ordering me to do biblical study?
Are you telling me there's only ONE way to refute that doctrine?
Isn't that like saying that no one knew that adultery was wrong before there was a research paper stating so?
So you tell people they don't know what they're talking about and then you start ordering around?
Dooj, you are not making any sense at all. And then you call me Boy. You are wasting my time and really not making any sense. Do you want to have a discussion or do you just want someone to argue with?
Dooj, I do not have the time to read every single post on this thread. I just read it now however. It offered no specific information. It was to general in nature.
Uhhhh.... but you had the time to write a tome? It's not like it was time-consuming to read a few more posts down.
And I really do like George, but he is not someone to discuss the bible with because I really don't think he likes the book or the content. Can you understand that Dooj? And I think George can defend himself. He is very good at this. Dooj, he does not need you to defend him. You are wasting both of our time right now.
Honestly Dooj. You are not making any sense right now. Why don't you read some of the posts here before commenting any more tonight. And no, if you don't like my posts then you don't have to read them. But if you want to comment on them then please read them so that you actually know what I have said here.
Dooj, you really are being illogical tonight with me. Why is that? Haven't you ever studied anything in school or had a teacher who knew more than you about a particular subject? With regard to a knowledge of God and godliness, sure God can tell us things. But don't you think studying the writings of Paul from the New Testament (no I don't mean Victor) would help us gain some needed understanding?
And if you really want to prove TWI wrong don't you see the value of beating them at their own game. Namely knowing the bible better than them? It is possible to do that if we pool our research. However, if we waste our time on petty arguments we are going to end up looking like fools.
There is indeed some validity to speaking in tongues. Many people on many continents of varying backgrounds religious, cultural, and ethnic practice speaking in tongues. The one true doctrine for speaking in tongues is shown below on the left. At least one other doctrine was practiced (also shown below in black, red and white) but was later debunked as no more than a mere request for more ale.
Dooj, you really are being illogical tonight with me. Why is that? Haven't you ever studied anything in school or had a teacher who knew more than you about a particular subject? With regard to a knowledge of God and godliness, sure God can tell us things. But don't you think studying the writings of Paul from the New Testament (no I don't mean Victor) would help us gain some needed understanding?
And if you really want to prove TWI wrong don't you see the value of beating them at their own game. Namely knowing the bible better than them? It is possible to do that if we pool our research. However, if we waste our time on petty arguments we are going to end up looking like fools.
Mark - I'm going to answer this and be done with the matter - at least where you're concerned.
I read the post you made on this thread - where you actually criticized how waysider started the thread. Then you later wrote that you hadn't bothered to read down a bit to see waysider's very gracious explanation of what his intentions were.
As far as Geo is concerned - he really can take care of himself. I never even tried to defend him. Geez!
Now stop being condescending. It should be embarassing to you.
Dooj, thanks for reading my post before commenting. However, I disagree with you on this right now. When I commented on Waysider's original post I said that it sounded to me like Waysider thinks that tongues have ceased. Other people on this thread thought the same thing. For a few people here this was confusing to them. I disagree with Waysider on this and I have noticed other people disagreed with him also. Just because my method of communication is a bit more forward than others does not mean I am being condescending.
Just for the record again, I do not think speaking in tongues has ceased for our time now and I made that very clear in my past posts.
Now I am sure that a number of you have many good things to comment on this subject so I will not be commenting anymore here.
just seems to me that some people just dont want to believe GODS WORD and critize those who do believe , i was raised roman catholic and i spoke in tounges before i ever took a class of the way , the bible also says there is no GOD of course thats the last part of the verse , the WORD of GOD is not for every body and i have wondered about sit at times but its in GODS WORD and that was here b 4 the way was and i have gotten a huge amount of prayers answered from GOD by just believing whats written , my life went from very bad to totally awesome within about a year or so after taking pfal back in 1980 and applying GODS WORD in my life and i continue to go to GODS WORD for answers to thimgs like the worldly lie that man can destroy the earth stuff for its GODS WORD that is the truth. one thing that Weirwille use to say was if your preacher at the church you go to teaches the rightly divided WORD then you believe that word,sit is only fake if you belive you are NOT sit !
You may have already read the articles on Dr. Juedes site concerning this issue, but it is an interesting approach and analysis by Douglas V. Morton. Here is part of it. . . the link leads to the main site and the article can be found under Biblical Research and Teaching. . . . Inhaling the Spirit.
. . . . . .The unanimous evidence, therefore, shows that the word means to "blow upon" or "breathe upon." Jesus was not inhaling in John 20:22. He was not showing his disciples what they were to do on the day of Pentecost. He actually breathed upon them and said "receive the Holy Spirit." When Pentecost came, the loud sound heard by the people was not the disciples breathing hard, following the example of Jesus, but the Spirit of God coming upon them.
In light of the above evidence, Wierwille's teaching of "in-breathing" to receive the Holy Spirit is meaningless. Nowhere does scripture indicate that we receive spiritual power through breathing in, even if it is connected with believing. The Apostle Paul writes concerning receiving the Spirit:
"Did you receive (lambano) the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?" The Holy Spirit is received by hearing the message of the Gospel and believing it. Any other way is considered "a work of the law" and against the Gospel. The validity of speaking in tongues is not being questioned here. What is being questioned and rejected is Wierwille's mechanistic and unscriptural teaching concerning receiving the Spirit and speaking in tongues. The Way is certainly not a group from which one would want to learn about this special gift or ability. Its inability to understand this phenomena of scripture makes it a poor instructor in this and other teachings.
There may be some things off or whatever in this article. . . but can you imagine what it must look look to someone on the outside looking into our odd little cult? I posted what I did because I thought it illustrated Waysider's point.
And, no, it's not that I "don't like" the contents of The Bible, I just don't hold it as any sort of divine source of information. (I actually do like Ecclesiastes, Job, and Song of Solomon, but how often do you really need to reread the SAME book? But I digress...) I also don't give much credence to The Koran, The Bhagavagita, or the Wisdom of Buddha, so I'm sorta egalitarian in that regard...
Here's another idea though. Suppose that some sharpwitted MOG wannabee back a few thousand years ago figured out he could get more dedicated converts to his church by making some mundane - but little understood - human response into a spiritual exercise? Maybe claim that tapping the knee with a small rubber hammer proves that Almighty God has chosen you (IF you have an involuntary twitch in your leg as a result!) You could have a special prayer, have the congregation get quiet and put on their holiest faces, and then have a "Kicking in the SPIRIT" session!
I'm sure there's lots of normal, albeit not well-understood (especially by unschooled, Iron-age people) physical responses that could have been co-opted in such a manner. Exploiting various and sundry involuntary nerve responses, or maybe even more mundane sorta things. Maybe feed the whole congregation a high-fibre meal and have a farting-in-the-spirit marathon? But, again I digress...
(RR, Visions of purgatory are keeping me up at night, -shudder-)
Incidentally, a question for everyone. How does one edit his posts on this forum now? With the new format I was looking for the edit button on one of my posts yesterday, but could not find it.
Incidentally, a question for everyone. How does one edit his posts on this forum now? With the new format I was looking for the edit button on one of my posts yesterday, but could not find it.
To edit in a similar format as the previous board, click edit, you will see text only...now at the bottom of the edit window you will see "Save", "Cancel" "Use Full Edit" Click on Full Edit and you will see an edit window you are probably more familiar with.
I just looked in on this thread. Which I have read in its entirety. Because I don't have any patience with those who say they couldn't be bothered to read the thread, or haven't followed it, and just stick some post in anyway.
Session 12 almost terrified people into SIT. Instead of being something soothing, exhilarating, longed for - it became something to be "worked for." I felt pressured and worried. What if I didn't do it? What if I couldn't perform?
And that's not how God works.
Other first-time class participants have felt similarly. But talk to them soothingly, gently, privately, and don't try to shame or embarrass them, just allow them to relax with God, and out it comes.
The "12 benefits of SIT" that Waysider mentions was always a problem for me - for some of the reasons Waysider mentions. How can you make something bigger, better, stronger, than it is, if it's already perfect? And - these 12 benefits seem repetitive, some saying the same things in slightly different words. If VPW had "kept it simple, stupid" and given only one or two supposed benefits instead of trying to show off his academic prowess (gag), then maybe we would have actually enjoyed that session.
Incidentally I think there is evidence that there was some sort of "pseudo-SIT" thing going on in Paul's time, since he has to say that "no man can call Christ accursed" when SIT and that suggests to me that there had been some SIT-like practice already going on at the time that new Christians were uncertain about. Perhaps they had seen something similar in pagan worship.
Ultimately, the question is not whether or not SIT is real, whether what TWI taught was true or false in part or whole, but - where's your heart at?
It seems to me that tongues is legit for all those who do it. And bogus for those that don't.
Personal bias will most likely get in the way of any objective consideration or re-consideration
of the practice.
Goey's arguable facts.
Historically, tongues all but disappeared from very early in Church History. The practice of tongues is not
mentioned or debated in any of the Church Councils from Nicea (325ad ) forward. In the second century
Irenaeus who was born in Asia Minor ( where Paul founded chuches) and studied under Polycarp had only "heard" of some that may have spoke in tongues. Similarly, Justyn Martyr (died 165ad) had only heard of spiritual gifts.
Clearly the practice of tongues as described by Paul had all but ceased by 200 AD. If it was being practiced, it would have been among those known as gnostics or possibly by the Marconites. It was pretty much gone by 300AD.
Then, except for some isolated incidents that some considered tongues, the practice didn't show up again until the Pentecostal movement in the late 19th early 20th centuries. And based upon what I have experienced and observed, what the Pentecostals did, and were taught to do In TWI may be two different things.
The point here is that we have no standard passed down from the days of Paul that we can compare to modern day tongues, and TWI's version or any other version ... to determine if it is legit or bogus. How can we possibly know? If TWI tongues is legit, does that make the pentecostal version and others bogus ? Or vice versa ?
In TWI we were taught that tongues did all kinds of benefical things like build up the spirit, etc. Why would the holy spirit in a person need to be built up? Isn't God's spirit already "perfect" ? Maybe that meant the "spirit of man" which is his soul. Been a long time.
Didn't Wierwille go so far as to say in the Advanced Class that "Speaking in tongues is a prerequiste to receiving relevation from God". In other words of you don't speak in tongues (TWI style), God cannnot or will not tell you stuff. That would also imply that almost no one had heard from God for nearly 2000 years until VWP cam along and that today, only a select few can receive any relevation from God. I'm sure that's down to only one or 2 people now. We need to ask Rosalie it there's at least 1 more.
IMO whether tongues is legit or not is a matter for the individual to decide. It is not likely that one who practices it and perceives great benefit (whether real or imagined) will even consider the other side of the coin. It is also not likely that one who tried for years and saw no real benefit will be spending hours in the closet speaking in tongues.
I have decided that I do not know and that I cannot tell. But it seems to me that if it is legit, it is given way to much weight by many of many of those that teach and practice it. I doub't that a person's spirituality is related to the amount of time they speak in tongues any more so than it is related to amount of time that spend working in a soup kitchen.
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RumRunner
Just remember purgatory
RumRunner
And I reserve the right to strenuously disagree with the above - with equal credibility, I can call it poppy cock, brainwashing, WayBrain and whatever else I choose to label the glossolalia, and move
doojable
Mark - did you even read this post? And considering that this isn't the doctrinal forum, what's with railing on anyone who doesn't agree with your view of SIT? Chill out man....
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Mark Sanguinetti
And Dooj, your observations don't seem very factual to me right now. Sorry to have to tell you this.
My point is why do you want to discuss any body of knowledge just to prove something wrong when you don't like the particular body of knowledge in the first place? If you want to find something wrong with TWI's doctrine then do some actual bible study and specifically point to the places from the bible where they are wrong. How hard is that?
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doojable
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Mark Sanguinetti
Dooj, you are not making any sense at all. And then you call me Boy. You are wasting my time and really not making any sense. Do you want to have a discussion or do you just want someone to argue with?
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doojable
Uhhhh.... but you had the time to write a tome? It's not like it was time-consuming to read a few more posts down.
Was that so hard?
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Mark Sanguinetti
And I really do like George, but he is not someone to discuss the bible with because I really don't think he likes the book or the content. Can you understand that Dooj? And I think George can defend himself. He is very good at this. Dooj, he does not need you to defend him. You are wasting both of our time right now.
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doojable
Are you telling me that it's not possible that what we were taught was SIT really was not a biblical experience?
Are you telling me that it's not possible that we were wrong?
Are you telling me that's it's not possible that you are wrong?
Are telling me that it's not possible that you really can't speak for the creator of the universe?
I hope you're not implying this, because that would be arrogant. And we all know that Christians should be prosperous, not arrogant.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Honestly Dooj. You are not making any sense right now. Why don't you read some of the posts here before commenting any more tonight. And no, if you don't like my posts then you don't have to read them. But if you want to comment on them then please read them so that you actually know what I have said here.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Dooj, you really are being illogical tonight with me. Why is that? Haven't you ever studied anything in school or had a teacher who knew more than you about a particular subject? With regard to a knowledge of God and godliness, sure God can tell us things. But don't you think studying the writings of Paul from the New Testament (no I don't mean Victor) would help us gain some needed understanding?
And if you really want to prove TWI wrong don't you see the value of beating them at their own game. Namely knowing the bible better than them? It is possible to do that if we pool our research. However, if we waste our time on petty arguments we are going to end up looking like fools.
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RumRunner
There is indeed some validity to speaking in tongues. Many people on many continents of varying backgrounds religious, cultural, and ethnic practice speaking in tongues. The one true doctrine for speaking in tongues is shown below on the left. At least one other doctrine was practiced (also shown below in black, red and white) but was later debunked as no more than a mere request for more ale.
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doojable
Mark - I'm going to answer this and be done with the matter - at least where you're concerned.
I read the post you made on this thread - where you actually criticized how waysider started the thread. Then you later wrote that you hadn't bothered to read down a bit to see waysider's very gracious explanation of what his intentions were.
As far as Geo is concerned - he really can take care of himself. I never even tried to defend him. Geez!
Now stop being condescending. It should be embarassing to you.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Dooj, thanks for reading my post before commenting. However, I disagree with you on this right now. When I commented on Waysider's original post I said that it sounded to me like Waysider thinks that tongues have ceased. Other people on this thread thought the same thing. For a few people here this was confusing to them. I disagree with Waysider on this and I have noticed other people disagreed with him also. Just because my method of communication is a bit more forward than others does not mean I am being condescending.
Just for the record again, I do not think speaking in tongues has ceased for our time now and I made that very clear in my past posts.
Now I am sure that a number of you have many good things to comment on this subject so I will not be commenting anymore here.
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shiftthis
just seems to me that some people just dont want to believe GODS WORD and critize those who do believe , i was raised roman catholic and i spoke in tounges before i ever took a class of the way , the bible also says there is no GOD of course thats the last part of the verse , the WORD of GOD is not for every body and i have wondered about sit at times but its in GODS WORD and that was here b 4 the way was and i have gotten a huge amount of prayers answered from GOD by just believing whats written , my life went from very bad to totally awesome within about a year or so after taking pfal back in 1980 and applying GODS WORD in my life and i continue to go to GODS WORD for answers to thimgs like the worldly lie that man can destroy the earth stuff for its GODS WORD that is the truth. one thing that Weirwille use to say was if your preacher at the church you go to teaches the rightly divided WORD then you believe that word,sit is only fake if you belive you are NOT sit !
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RumRunner
LSD wasn't for everybody either but we sure enjoyed the myth of the ride...
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now I see
OK, I haven't really been too involved in this thread, but I couldn't pass this one by...Shifthis, would you care to explain yourself on this one???
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waysider
Man has already destroyed large and important portions of the Earth and continues to do so at a rapid pace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation
That subject, though, really deserves a thread of its own.
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geisha779
Waysider,
You may have already read the articles on Dr. Juedes site concerning this issue, but it is an interesting approach and analysis by Douglas V. Morton. Here is part of it. . . the link leads to the main site and the article can be found under Biblical Research and Teaching. . . . Inhaling the Spirit.
http://www.abouttheway.org/
. . . . . .The unanimous evidence, therefore, shows that the word means to "blow upon" or "breathe upon." Jesus was not inhaling in John 20:22. He was not showing his disciples what they were to do on the day of Pentecost. He actually breathed upon them and said "receive the Holy Spirit." When Pentecost came, the loud sound heard by the people was not the disciples breathing hard, following the example of Jesus, but the Spirit of God coming upon them.
In light of the above evidence, Wierwille's teaching of "in-breathing" to receive the Holy Spirit is meaningless. Nowhere does scripture indicate that we receive spiritual power through breathing in, even if it is connected with believing. The Apostle Paul writes concerning receiving the Spirit:
"Did you receive (lambano) the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?" The Holy Spirit is received by hearing the message of the Gospel and believing it. Any other way is considered "a work of the law" and against the Gospel. The validity of speaking in tongues is not being questioned here. What is being questioned and rejected is Wierwille's mechanistic and unscriptural teaching concerning receiving the Spirit and speaking in tongues. The Way is certainly not a group from which one would want to learn about this special gift or ability. Its inability to understand this phenomena of scripture makes it a poor instructor in this and other teachings.
There may be some things off or whatever in this article. . . but can you imagine what it must look look to someone on the outside looking into our odd little cult? I posted what I did because I thought it illustrated Waysider's point.
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George Aar
And, no, it's not that I "don't like" the contents of The Bible, I just don't hold it as any sort of divine source of information. (I actually do like Ecclesiastes, Job, and Song of Solomon, but how often do you really need to reread the SAME book? But I digress...) I also don't give much credence to The Koran, The Bhagavagita, or the Wisdom of Buddha, so I'm sorta egalitarian in that regard...
Here's another idea though. Suppose that some sharpwitted MOG wannabee back a few thousand years ago figured out he could get more dedicated converts to his church by making some mundane - but little understood - human response into a spiritual exercise? Maybe claim that tapping the knee with a small rubber hammer proves that Almighty God has chosen you (IF you have an involuntary twitch in your leg as a result!) You could have a special prayer, have the congregation get quiet and put on their holiest faces, and then have a "Kicking in the SPIRIT" session!
I'm sure there's lots of normal, albeit not well-understood (especially by unschooled, Iron-age people) physical responses that could have been co-opted in such a manner. Exploiting various and sundry involuntary nerve responses, or maybe even more mundane sorta things. Maybe feed the whole congregation a high-fibre meal and have a farting-in-the-spirit marathon? But, again I digress...
(RR, Visions of purgatory are keeping me up at night, -shudder-)
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thanks for clarifying yourself George.
Incidentally, a question for everyone. How does one edit his posts on this forum now? With the new format I was looking for the edit button on one of my posts yesterday, but could not find it.
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RumRunner
To edit in a similar format as the previous board, click edit, you will see text only...now at the bottom of the edit window you will see "Save", "Cancel" "Use Full Edit" Click on Full Edit and you will see an edit window you are probably more familiar with.
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Twinky
I just looked in on this thread. Which I have read in its entirety. Because I don't have any patience with those who say they couldn't be bothered to read the thread, or haven't followed it, and just stick some post in anyway.
Session 12 almost terrified people into SIT. Instead of being something soothing, exhilarating, longed for - it became something to be "worked for." I felt pressured and worried. What if I didn't do it? What if I couldn't perform?
And that's not how God works.
Other first-time class participants have felt similarly. But talk to them soothingly, gently, privately, and don't try to shame or embarrass them, just allow them to relax with God, and out it comes.
The "12 benefits of SIT" that Waysider mentions was always a problem for me - for some of the reasons Waysider mentions. How can you make something bigger, better, stronger, than it is, if it's already perfect? And - these 12 benefits seem repetitive, some saying the same things in slightly different words. If VPW had "kept it simple, stupid" and given only one or two supposed benefits instead of trying to show off his academic prowess (gag), then maybe we would have actually enjoyed that session.
Incidentally I think there is evidence that there was some sort of "pseudo-SIT" thing going on in Paul's time, since he has to say that "no man can call Christ accursed" when SIT and that suggests to me that there had been some SIT-like practice already going on at the time that new Christians were uncertain about. Perhaps they had seen something similar in pagan worship.
Ultimately, the question is not whether or not SIT is real, whether what TWI taught was true or false in part or whole, but - where's your heart at?
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JeffSjo
Isn't the very context of the speaking in toungues manifestation where it says, "Without love we are nothing."
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Goey
Tongues ? Bogus? How dare you ! eh eh eh.
It seems to me that tongues is legit for all those who do it. And bogus for those that don't.
Personal bias will most likely get in the way of any objective consideration or re-consideration
of the practice.
Goey's arguable facts.
Historically, tongues all but disappeared from very early in Church History. The practice of tongues is not
mentioned or debated in any of the Church Councils from Nicea (325ad ) forward. In the second century
Irenaeus who was born in Asia Minor ( where Paul founded chuches) and studied under Polycarp had only "heard" of some that may have spoke in tongues. Similarly, Justyn Martyr (died 165ad) had only heard of spiritual gifts.
Clearly the practice of tongues as described by Paul had all but ceased by 200 AD. If it was being practiced, it would have been among those known as gnostics or possibly by the Marconites. It was pretty much gone by 300AD.
Then, except for some isolated incidents that some considered tongues, the practice didn't show up again until the Pentecostal movement in the late 19th early 20th centuries. And based upon what I have experienced and observed, what the Pentecostals did, and were taught to do In TWI may be two different things.
The point here is that we have no standard passed down from the days of Paul that we can compare to modern day tongues, and TWI's version or any other version ... to determine if it is legit or bogus. How can we possibly know? If TWI tongues is legit, does that make the pentecostal version and others bogus ? Or vice versa ?
In TWI we were taught that tongues did all kinds of benefical things like build up the spirit, etc. Why would the holy spirit in a person need to be built up? Isn't God's spirit already "perfect" ? Maybe that meant the "spirit of man" which is his soul. Been a long time.
Didn't Wierwille go so far as to say in the Advanced Class that "Speaking in tongues is a prerequiste to receiving relevation from God". In other words of you don't speak in tongues (TWI style), God cannnot or will not tell you stuff. That would also imply that almost no one had heard from God for nearly 2000 years until VWP cam along and that today, only a select few can receive any relevation from God. I'm sure that's down to only one or 2 people now. We need to ask Rosalie it there's at least 1 more.
IMO whether tongues is legit or not is a matter for the individual to decide. It is not likely that one who practices it and perceives great benefit (whether real or imagined) will even consider the other side of the coin. It is also not likely that one who tried for years and saw no real benefit will be spending hours in the closet speaking in tongues.
I have decided that I do not know and that I cannot tell. But it seems to me that if it is legit, it is given way to much weight by many of many of those that teach and practice it. I doub't that a person's spirituality is related to the amount of time they speak in tongues any more so than it is related to amount of time that spend working in a soup kitchen.
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Mark Sanguinetti
A good post by Goey. This is the kind of post on this subject that to me has valid considerations.
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cman
ever heard a child talk?
like a small child or baby?
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