and tongues shall cease---

[waysider]

The "Lies and Deception" thread raised this question for me.

How did you feel when you found out that SIT is bogus?

[rascal]

Foolish

[T-Bone]

No big deal - I was tired of growing big & fat spiritually anyway. I mean geez, I’m up to a size 36 in the waist now – and that’s getting too tight.

[Bolshevik]

I hated SIT. Hated it.

I would worry all day that I would get called on in fellowship. Then the next day I'd feel foolish for doing it. Then of course the next day was another fellowship.

Found out it was bogus? Sigh of relief.

[WordWolf]

I'm not convinced it was ALL bogus. I think some of it was legitimate.

(Mostly when coupled with interpretations in some times I can recall, but there's other stuff I won't

get into.)

On the other hand, vpw seemed to fake it a lot- every single public time he claimed to SIT,

it was the SAME SYLLABLES. "Lo shanta mala ka sito la SHONTA."

Either God is incredibly repetitive, or vpw was a fake and an unimaginative one.

I have other proof of the later, so.....

[Tzaia]

I don't think SIT is bogus. Most of what I heard in TWI was bogus - and the argument that we were speaking the language of angels was flat.

I was rarely called to SIT. Rarely. I was never called when I felt there was something that God wanted to say through me. After a few years of that I figured that we weren't being led by the spirit as much as we thought.

[Linda Z]

The "Lies and Deception" thread raised this question for me.

How did you feel when you found out that SIT is bogus?

Who pronounced it bogus? Because some people on GSC have said they faked it, you've now decided that it's always fake?

I'd never heard of SIT before I did it, which was long before I ever heard of twi. It was an amazing, uplifting experience for me, with God's signature and love all over it. I'm sorry that it apparently wasn't like that for you.

I won't argue about this because I don't argue doctrine. It's about as futile as arguing politics. I have to say, though, that I disagree with the premise of your question.

[waysider]

Who pronounced it bogus? Because some people on GSC have said they faked it, you've now decided that it's always fake?

I'd never heard of SIT before I did it, which was long before I ever heard of twi. It was an amazing, uplifting experience for me, with God's signature and love all over it. I'm sorry that it apparently wasn't like that for you.

I won't argue about this because I don't argue doctrine. It's about as futile as arguing politics. I have to say, though, that I disagree with the premise of your question.

To clarify some points:

1.I used the Way acronym, "SIT", to refer to "speaking in tongues as taught by The Way."

2.I have lived with someone for 26 years who admittedly faked, not only SIT, but TIP and Prophesy for over 2 years before leaving The Way. So, no, I don't base my assessment on the testimony that has been presented here by some others on GSC.

3. I, too, spoke in tongues before PFAL and it was an amazing and uplifting experience for me as well.

4. I never said that "it's always fake".

*******************************************************

The basis of my "premise" is that SIT, or "speaking in tongues as taught in The Way", is bogus. As a quick reference, I offer sessions 11 & 12 of PFAL. On page 62 of the PFAL syllabus, Wierwille offers a list of "12 things that speaking in tongues is". That list is nothing more than a list of Wierwille's private interpretation (or the private interpretation of whomever may have inspired him.) with scriptures thrown in to give it some Biblical credibility. What Wierwille taught in PFAL is what is commonly called glossolalia. Glossolalia has been practiced since long before the "first century". It's also been practiced by non Christians.There have been many studies conducted on glossolali and, surprisingly, the effects of glossolali are not as damning as might be presumed. The application and exploitation of said practice, however, is a whole different matter. The SIT we were taught in PFAL was really nothing substantially different than the glossolali that has been practiced by Christians and non-Christians alike for thousands of years and predates Christ himself by thousands of years.To be so brazen as to say "it's proof in the senses realm that you're going to Heaven and all hell can't stop you" is a bogus, blatant and deplorable misrepresentation and application of scripture.

GLOSSOLALIA

(rather lengthy but worth the read)

Edited June 13, 2009 by waysider

[doojable]

This is GSC - tongues will never cease

[newlife]

I too, spoke in Tongues before TWI....and it was truly an amazing experience. I still speak in tongues and thank God for it. Not bogus to me....

[bowtwi]

I too, spoke in Tongues before TWI....and it was truly an amazing experience. I still speak in tongues and thank God for it. Not bogus to me....

I first spoke in tongues after session 12 and wasn't sure if it was real or not. That was in 1979. Today, in 2009, I still speak in tongues.

Just this week someone very dear to me asked me whether I was praying in the spirit or praying with words and that he could feel when I prayed for him.

I too still speak in tongues and thank God for it. Not bogus to me either....

[GT]

GLOSSOLALIA

(rather lengthy but worth the read)

Well worth the read.

Thanks

[coolchef]

i never believed it

not saying it isn't so,but it was fake to me

[geisha779]

I saw a "Reba" episode once. . . If you go to 6.45 of the 7.00 minutes of the youtube. . . she sounds just like we did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iab-36TDdTA

[cman]

Tongues cease when understood,

when knowledge vanishes it's not knowledge anymore.

twi's sit, barely scratches the surface of tongues.

Tongues of men or angels can be heard, the understanding might no be there.

Yet still to hear it, men or angels, there is interaction. And impact of a sort.

Depends on what is being spoken.....or read....or hearing....or seeing....

Love is primary, as we know and see.

And is the expanse that opens tongues and knowledge beyond it's limits.

Edited June 16, 2009 by cman

[waysider]

More to ponder

Speaking in tongues already existed before and during the lifetime of Christ.

Why didn't he ever encourage people to speak in tongues?

Again, please note that I have specifically used the Way acronym, "S.I.T."

That's because I'm referring specifically to the "WAY" teachings regarding the topic.

How did you feel when you discovered that speaking in tongues is not an exclusive activity of Christians and that it is not an ability bestowed solely upon the "born-again" or proof of the "new birth"?

Those items are contrary to TWI doctrine, thus the TWI doctrine (of S.I.T.) is bogus.

[excathedra]

i don't know what to think about all of this

the intermediate class bothered me though

[Bolshevik]

. . .

the intermediate class bothered me though

the plaid suits, I know

they were distracting.

[Linda Z]

I find it surprising that the Wikipedia article doesn’t mention the book They Speak with Other Tongues by John L. Sherrill, who also coauthored The Hiding Place, God’s Smuggler, and The Cross and the Switchblade. I read it in about 1971, not long before I got into twi. Sherrill was a reporter for Guideposts magazine. He had heard about SIT (it's a handy acronym; too bad, twi, I'm taking it back), and he was skeptical about it but ended up having a life-changing experience as a result of his investigation. I haven't read it again lately, but back then I found it fascinating.

Waysider said (my comments in blue):

Speaking in tongues already existed before and during the lifetime of Christ.

Why didn't he ever encourage people to speak in tongues?

I think there's an answer to that question, but if I told you what I think it is, we'd end up in doctrinal, and I don't go there. :)

Again, please note that I have specifically used the Way acronym, "S.I.T."

That's because I'm referring specifically to the "WAY" teachings regarding the topic.

How did you feel when you discovered that speaking in tongues is not an exclusive activity of Christians and that it is not an ability bestowed solely upon the "born-again" or proof of the "new birth"?

I thought it was interesting and I thought (and I'm still certain) that there's plenty we don't know about the things of God.

Those items are contrary to TWI doctrine, thus the TWI doctrine (of S.I.T.) is bogus.

There are plenty of things contrary to twi doctrine that were and are very much a part of me and what I believe. This doesn't concern me much. :D

In all honesty, the way VPW led people into tongues in session 12 of PFAL was almost identical to how it was introduced to me, only when I first did it I'd never heard anyone do it and hadn't even heard that it existed. The difference was that I wasn't in a room full of people who expected it of me. It was just me, my ex, and the hippie Christian neighbor who knocked on my door a few minutes after I prayed to God for help, saying, "God told me you needed help." (I'm sure I've said it in a post before: That got my attention!)

I think where VPW/twi went wrong on the subject was in expecting everyone to do it on command, right then and there in session 12, whether they wanted to or not.

Come to think of it, this ties in with the thread I started on forced witnessing in twi. I believed the whole time I was in twi that witnessing should be a naturally occurring, spiritually inspired act, not something people were pushed to do. Likewise, I don't think people should have been coerced or "peer-pressured" by class instructors and "grads" to SIT. I believe that's why some faked it; they felt compelled to "perform."

Same with interpretation and prophecy in the intermediate class--hence all the repetitive messages. And the old intermediate class was a piece of cake to compared to the later E**l B****n version. I knew people who quit going to fellowship over that one--they were scared to death they were going to "do it wrong" after he introduced all the rules and regs, like "the length of the interpretation must be close to the length of the SIT" and all that hogwash. It was another example of twi trying to legislate and regulate spirituality.

[MATILDA]

speaking in tongues

language is invented, any language anywhere...wherever it is, this it has in common...it is communication

humans (one of which I is) are wonderful this way...we are programmed to connect, communicate, somehow with someone

God is not a west European, Alexander Scourby-type, who speaks in dosts and thous

Shakespeare did, tho, and the King James was of that time...ergo we speaketh with the holy "lithp" and deem it scriptural.

Very heady. Very thilly. Very us, thumb times.

Having made part of my living with words, I find the whole s.i.t. thing amazingly leap of faithy and I likes it. Why?

Becuz just between you and Him, you are giving voice (if aloud at all) in a way only He can decipher and catalogue.

It takes the cognizant me out of my prayers and frees up alot of time for Him to do other things.

I do not sit cross-legged on a mountaintop buzzing the magic ohm...but, on occasion, often actually, I switch my

prayer from perfect MLA form to "here Lord, you take it...lo shonta fest."

It is liberating...otherwise my prayers would and could weigh down Atlas himself.

The Way and s.i.t. is a whole 'nother thing.

How incredibly wonderful to want to know and instruct others also...but how despicable to dupe others knowingly.

I have to remind myself that I really have seen signs, miracles, and wonders in my life...

I never thought that I would "explain away" things I have known in my own life and experience...

I long to know the hands down truth of it all one day...and reclaim the joy

...and when I pray, I find huge comfort in the fact that when my words fail me, my heart and spirit click into gear.

Faith is an oasis in the heart which will never be reached by the caravan of thinking...KG said that, and along with the verse in Hebrews...I am ready to relearn and embrace the joy of believing.

X

M

[geisha779]

Like Linda Z I don't wanna get all doctrinal, so, I will say, IMO tongues via TWI were counterfeit. The "ministry" was a counterfeit. . . the confession without genuine repentance was counterfeit. . . and the Jesus we confessed as "Lord" is basically unrecognizable as the Jesus of historic Christianity.

There is that whole rotten fruit thing . . . at some point we have to contend with.

But again. . . just my opinion.

Edited June 17, 2009 by geisha779

[cman]

http://www.spezify.com/#/speaking%20in%20tongues

[waysider]

Interestingly, studies have shown that, while one is engaged in speaking in tongues, the areas of the brain that are normally active when language is being processed, become relatively inactive. Thus, your brain is not processing language in a typical sense.

******************************

"A group of researchers at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine used Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography (SPECT) to analyze brain activity within individuals as they spoke in tongues. It was the first study of this kind. During this technique, a small quantity of a radioactive drug is injected into a person's vein. The scanner then makes detailed images of tissues as cells take up the drug.

During an interview on 2006-SEP-20 by Steve Paulson, Andrew Newberg -- Associate Professor of Radiology, Psychiatry, and Religious Studies and Director for the Center for Spirituality and the Mind, at the University of Pennsylvania -- said that the region of the brain involved in language is not activated when a person speaks in tongues."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/tongues5.htm

Edited June 17, 2009 by waysider

[GrouchoMarxJr]

I think it was all bogus...Wierwille's experience was especially bogus...Twi was to legitimate spiritual experiences as Wal Mart is to the American dream...

I only wish you could see it in the "original"...

[now I see]

Hey WordWolf, what other proof do you have, can you share it here?  

I didn't SIT in session 12 but I did afterward, at home by myself, it was a life changing experience for me too.

Now the TIP part I never felt comfortable with, I am a bit introverted and shy with public speaking, so part of that could be me, but I also didn't hardly ever feel inspired to do that part of it as twi taught it should be done.

For that matter, I think the rules and regs regarding the manifestation of healing, as twi taught it, were all messed up too, and they limit God excessively.