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Boy, TWI sure has screwed up marriage!


JeffSjo
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A couple of days ago a longtime poster was given a little time off, and since then I have been keying off of a few of his/her words. They were something along the lines of (apparently speaking of the "good old days" of TWI), "I remember when we used to encourage believing spouses to stay with their unbelieving spouses." And the further implication that I remember from the now deleted posts was that TWI was right in actvely seeking to seperate spouses from their unbelieving spouses.

Now while it is good common sense for some folks to consider religious differences before taking a relationship into marriage what this poster was refering to was a TWI stand that looking back, had nothing to do with common sense IMO.

Now from a scriptural standpoint, Paul's exhortation to stay with an unbelieving spouse was pretty straight forward, and was based on the believing spouse being lovingly concerned for their spouses welfare. And IMO that doesn't give anyone a right to treat marriage like it is suppose to be some kind of loveless bondage. In the law their is instruction for how a wife should behave if she leaves her husband (for instance). And IMO it only takes a little common sense lovingly applied to see why there are situations where it was good for the scriptures to allow for some guidance in a situation where a wife may have to leave her husband, like for her or the kids safety and well being.....DUH!

And even if you are amoung those who do not desire to go to the scriptures for such guidance, I hope you are willing to look at these things based on the principles involved alone and do not think that I am intending to beat you over the head with scripture. I'll take what you say at face value as well as I can.

But "The Way International" was founded by Wierwille. And it is evident to me now that he was a narcisistic man with sociopathic characteristics (Thank you Greasespot for that) and it seems that because of who Wierwille was marriage became screwed up in TWI.

Let's see....hmmm...Leadership became sexually active and slept around with other's spouses and single believers that were prone to be fooled. And then taught that upper leadership had the right and needed these releases from the stresses of their God-given responsibilities. gag....barf!

IT IS A WONDER TO ME HOW ANY GREASESPOTTER MIGHT STILL THINK THAT TWI WAS IN ANY GOOD PLACE TO BE CORRECT IN EXECUTING SOUND JUDGEMENT WHEN CONSIDERING WHICH MARRIAGES TO KEEP AND WHICH ONES TO DISCARD.

I know that my former splinter group is capable of poisoning one spouses mind against another.

I believe that Wierwille slept with women and destroyed their families while pretending to be a man of God.

I believe that TWI tried to keep abusive marriages together because they thought that loyal but abusive followers were o.k.

I BELIEVE NOW, BASED ON THE POSTINGS; NOW DELETED; THAT I REFERED TO EARLIER THAT SOME PEOPLE STILL HOLD ONTO THE TWISTED, SICK, CRUEL, AND GODLESS THINKING THAT TWI TAUGHT THEM WHEN THEY EVALUATE THESE THINGS. Not to mention the screwy, false recollections based on lying TWI propoganda.

It seems plain to me that when TWI turned away from Paul's simple, loving counsel it was not because of extraordinary circumstances as TWI had us believing. It was because TWI was rotten to the core of it's founding president.

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Matthew 10: 35-36.

"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

For a group that claims the Gospels are irrelevant to the modern Christian,

they seem to excel at only matching these verses.

There's LOTS of verses in the Epistles that mention healthy relationships-

Jeff pointed out a few- but for a group that claims the Epistles are our

PRACTICAL guide, they sure don't PRACTICE what they say....

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This is what Jeff is referring to:

10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

What we're looking at here is the situation where perhaps both had been unbelievers, one had been won to Christ, and the other still hadn't made up his or her mind, continuing to follow the old beliefs and worship of Diana, Artemis, or whoever. We are not talking about the OT situation of the Chosen ones taking foreign spouses. Yes, culturally wives were supposed to follow their husbands and believe what their men believed. But actually, women do have their own minds and brains, to think with!

Paul's advice was basically that the behavior of the believing spouse should be a witness of God's love for the unbelieving spouse, and so win the unbelieving spouse to God. But if the unbelieving spouse refused to behave in a reasonable manner, then the believing spouse had no duty to put up with that.

But of course, TWI took no attention to Paul's exhortations (and here this thread ties into the Submission thread):

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

This spousal abuse is not unique to TWI. Some years ago, I met a fine woman (in a matrimonial situation) - husband was a leader in the Salvation Army - she led a terrible life and when she complained to the other elders, she was told that she needed to submit more (sound familiar?). Her husband's anger and abuse were her fault! Poor woman couldn't stand it any more and sought a divorce.

The legalities of the divorce were one thing, but her head couldn't get round leaving him. I shared these verses with her and pointed out that the husband, in beating her, wasn't doing what he should be doing as a leader, that he was unbelieving, that if she continued to live with him that was bondage and Christ had called us to be free. She obviously thought about that a lot and the next time she came into the office, she was really changed and she said these verses had set her free.

I have encountered ex TWI women who have been beaten, threatened with weapons, and physically abused. This often follows significant emotional abuse and systematic belittling. Other women have "merely" been emotionally abused - the damage from that can be much much worse.

VPW abused and belittled his own wife privately, whilst vaunting their marriage in public. That's the example he set.

If your private treatment of your spouse differs from your public treatment of that same person - why? (Do you know the word "hypocrite"?)

For women: if you were with Jesus two millennia ago - would he treat you like your husband is doing?

For men: if you were with Jesus two millennia ago - would you have seen him treat his followers, men or women, in the way you are treating your wife?

There are enough examples of Jesus being with women to form an opinion!

(edited cos I couldn't get my quote references in the right way!

Edited by Twinky
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Based on my little experience and the knowledge gathered from members both on and not on this forum, it seems to me that TWI applied the term "Believer" and "Non Believer" to TWI, not God. For example, I heard recently that TWI told a young couple that if either of them were to leave "The Ministry" they should strongly consider divorce. Fact is, I am a strong believer in God, which is the reason I oppose TWI so much. They would deem me a non believer in TWI though. It's as if they think the Bible was written for TWI only and applies only to them. God and TWI are interchangeable it seems...

Edited by believersnonbeliever
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Based on my little experience and the knowledge gathered from members both on and not on this forum, it seems to me that TWI applied the term "Believer' and "Non Believer" to TWI specifically, not God. For example, I heard recently that TWI told a young couple that if either of them were to leave "The Ministry" they should strongly consider divorce. Fact, is I am a strong believer in God, which is the reason I oppose TWI so much. They would deem me a non believer in TWI though. It's as if they think the Bible was written for TWI only and applies directly to them. God and TWI is interchangable it seems...

For a new arrival, you've summed up the situation nicely.

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Based on my little experience and the knowledge gathered from members both on and not on this forum, it seems to me that TWI applied the term "Believer" and "Non Believer" to TWI, not God. For example, I heard recently that TWI told a young couple that if either of them were to leave "The Ministry" they should strongly consider divorce. Fact is, I am a strong believer in God, which is the reason I oppose TWI so much. They would deem me a non believer in TWI though. It's as if they think the Bible was written for TWI only and applies only to them. God and TWI are interchangeable it seems...

Truth be told, many denominations feel that they've got the Scriptures figured out and that everyone else has it wrong. They state frequently that those who do not believe their way are doomed for hell. As a military chaplain I see it all of the time, and frequently have discussions with individuals over this issue. I don't believe any one group has it spot on. I do believe, however, that we are to do our best every day to serve the Lord and to understand the Bible through God's leading not our own understanding or through the understanding of any one denomination. The one clear cut criteria I see in the Bible for being a "believer" is accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.... I have yet to find a Scripture that says you're saved only if your a part of a certain denomination.

Now that I've taken the scenic route to my conclusion, one thing I don't frequently hear is that the Bible was written for one faith group and no one else.... In effect, I see your point when it come to TWI.

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Matthew 10: 35-36.

"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

For a group that claims the Gospels are irrelevant to the modern Christian,

they seem to excel at only matching these verses.

There's LOTS of verses in the Epistles that mention healthy relationships-

Jeff pointed out a few- but for a group that claims the Epistles are our

PRACTICAL guide, they sure don't PRACTICE what they say....

Very interesting reference WW.

I have heard very reliable stories of people who were betrayed by family to the nazis and other brutal governmental forces because they believed the scriptures. And such stories always seem to make it plain that the ones who were betrayed for believing seemed to have the single commonality of NOT HAVING DONE ANY EVIL THINGS.

Now I have not a single doubt in my little mind that TWI used these verses as they saw fit to use the frowned upon and other times irrelevant gospel scriptures to point out that people they were leading needed to abandon their families. I remember such things in my former splinter group too.

Where TWI blew it was since top leadership was corrupted by their very own Wierwille and seemed to only get worse over time they did not have the right to claim these verses as applying to them as the believers with unbelieving enemies. Heck TWI was rotten and such things I am afraid only served to smokescreen the truth that TWI was vile and corrupt. And in this circumstance those verses only served to further blind the already blinded and lead them straight into the proverbial ditch.

To my way of thinking if they are rotten then they misled people with these types of exhortaions; and if they had done no evil and only did good then they may have deserved to be thought of as those who faced enemies who were family for Christ's sake.

But now I have a lot more sympathy for those in my family who were talking to the deprogrammers in the early eighties than I did then. I didn't do anything evil about it then, I just made it very clear that any attempt to kidnap me would backfire in a big way on every level.

If I was anything like my former splinter group leader I would use such an event in my past to prove that my life was in danger because I am such a bigshot. But he learned that kind of manipulation from the very worst of TWI leadership practises I guess. But I think he is supplying his very own insanity however.

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Based on my little experience and the knowledge gathered from members both on and not on this forum, it seems to me that TWI applied the term "Believer" and "Non Believer" to TWI, not God. For example, I heard recently that TWI told a young couple that if either of them were to leave "The Ministry" they should strongly consider divorce. Fact is, I am a strong believer in God, which is the reason I oppose TWI so much. They would deem me a non believer in TWI though. It's as if they think the Bible was written for TWI only and applies only to them. God and TWI are interchangeable it seems...

Good point. So whether they refer to "God" or how to run a marriage and/or relationship it seems a safe bet to assume that it will not be to your good believersnonbeliever. I hope that you are coming to see enough to deal with TWI according as you have to without getting taken in by them. But perhaps as you chose such a poigniant avatar name you had already percieved where they were coming from before you joined this site.

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I think that some of the worst teachings in TWI in regards to marriage was the teaching that any believer could marry any other believer and they should be able to get along (provided you were both Wayites)

that and there should be one head of the house and it should be the man. LAst I looked a marriage involved TWO adults.

I have always appreciated that my husband tries to listen to what I think too. We have made it together for 26 years going on 27 years and I have to say we have definitely had our ups and downs...

I think one of the other problems that seems to affect most marriages in TWI is the take no prisoners attitude.

if you are unkind to people around you then you will be twice as unkind to your own loved ones.

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I think that some of the worst teachings in TWI in regards to marriage was the teaching that any believer could marry any other believer and they should be able to get along (provided you were both Wayites). . . . . . .

Misery loves company.

That whole concept really worked out for LCM.

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HMMMPH!

And a man who calls himself "A True Son Of Wierwille" got his twisted head into my marriage and my ex-wife's head. Even if it had been a TWI rooted minister with less than "River Road Fellowship's" level of insanity I wouldn't tend to expect much of anything good to come from any situation like mine. The root was just too rotten IMO. And leaven has this habit of spreading after all.

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  • 2 weeks later...

My now husband made it very clear back in 1979 that he could not consider a serious relationship with anyone who had not taken "the class." Since it was so important to him, I let him pay for it. I imagine that we were always considered unevenly yolked because I never went any further than the class and he was a college WoW, TC, and an ACG. Also, once we hooked up, he was not inclined to be as involved, so I was probably a bad influence. We also lived together before we were married - not as roommates. We didn't make a point of keeping it a secret, but we also didn't openly share that information.

I can't tell you how many people advised me against marrying him because he had a tendency to become engaged, but not actually get married. His fiancée before me had expressed a desire to go WoW, so he broke off the engagement. I believe his tendency was to move away from someone who was committed to moving up the way ladder for a number of reasons, most of them involving the increased meddling in people's private lives. Even at my low level, I had to tell people that it wasn't their life and that I did not appreciate the interference. I had been married and I knew what I was getting myself into. If he bailed, it would not be the end of the world. I knew that if he did commit, it would be for the duration.

TWI was never the foundation for our marriage. We always kept God at the head and we didn't equate TWI with God. I thought at the time that many TWI corp marriages were contrived, but who was I to make that observation?

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Did TWI screw up my marriage? They tried. And I wish they had done a better job of it.

Warning: I've been "marked and avoided" so take that into account :-)

I married my WOW brother (there's a whole story there that I won't get into here) and leadership was not happy. They were grooming him to move onward and upward rapidly and I was seen as a bad influence and a spiritual anchor. The kind that holds you under water and drowns you. I was always made to feel as though I was tolerated for his sake but that truly, on my own, I was trouble. I had too many questions and I committed the grave sin of not only disagreeing with leadership but questioning their practices and loudly announcing those I thought were nonsense. I remember sitting on the couch on more than a few occasions and being confronted by leadership for my ungodly behavior or attitude. At the time I still believed that we were SUPPOSED to question and examine and think for ourselves. When confronted it was not unusual for me to point out where the leadership had engaged in exactly the same behavior at some point and then let them know that they needed to chapter and verse it for me and show me how it was okay for them and not for me. They never would. I was supposed to listen and behave because they knew better. They ALWAYS knew better and inconsistencies were a result of MY lack of understanding. I can remember sitting out in the Way Woods and thinking I should just set up a pup tent and live among the trees because I dreaded setting foot in any building at HQ by then. The other side of that coin was that my husband, to whom I was so unequally yoked, was a pathological liar and leadership knew it. But it was tolerated and accepted. He was a man of God, a born leader, full of potential.

After 10 years I finally left. I couldn't take the lies, the financial ruin he dragged us through again and again while leadership patted him on the back and bailed him out. The last straw was the cheating. Bad enough on it's own but made infinitely worse when his explanation for his behavior was the presence of a brain tumor. An explanation that was, shocker, another lie.

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Dear AwayNGone,

I'm glad for you that you are outnaway.

It sounds like it was a rough ride for you but it sounds like you are doing o.k. anyway. I hope that you are!?

AND WELCOME TO THE GREASESPOT CAFE!

JEFF

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Dear AwayNGone,

I'm glad for you that you are outnaway.

It sounds like it was a rough ride for you but it sounds like you are doing o.k. anyway. I hope that you are!?

AND WELCOME TO THE GREASESPOT CAFE!

JEFF

Thanks for the welcome Jeff!

I'm doing very well thank you. But there is a small part of me that would love to have 15 minutes to point out a few things to LCM:

Me, one of the ones you wanted the revelation to murder is remarried to a non-believer who is the kindest, sweetest most loving person on the planet. Someone who is honest and who strives every day to be a better person. Financially my life is sweet. I am finishing my degree and the best part, I am finally, truly, happy.

The man you thought was so wonderful... yeah, he's living somewhere out in the back of beyond, can't work, and he's waiting on a kidney transplant. And you are, from what I hear, wearing a uniform and looking a bit pathetic.

In my world we call that karma.

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The last straw was the cheating. Bad enough on it's own but made infinitely worse when his explanation for his behavior was the presence of a brain tumor.

Yeah.

It's a well known fact that most marital infidelity is directly related to brain tumors.

:wacko:

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Thanks for the welcome Jeff!

I'm doing very well thank you. But there is a small part of me that would love to have 15 minutes to point out a few things to LCM:

Me, one of the ones you wanted the revelation to murder is remarried to a non-believer who is the kindest, sweetest most loving person on the planet. Someone who is honest and who strives every day to be a better person. Financially my life is sweet. I am finishing my degree and the best part, I am finally, truly, happy.

The man you thought was so wonderful... yeah, he's living somewhere out in the back of beyond, can't work, and he's waiting on a kidney transplant. And you are, from what I hear, wearing a uniform and looking a bit pathetic.

In my world we call that karma.

Dear AwayNGone,

Let me get this right, because I thought that there was not going to be anything else that I learned here that would surprise me.....

Martindale SAID THAT HE WANTED REVELATION TO KILL YOU!!! And that it wasn't just you!? There were others like you whose sin was to call leadership concerning leadership hypocrisy. Or for the others it might have been any number of good and honest things that they were standing up for I suppose.

I am having a little trouble wrapping my head around this. But it is not that I doubt it either. I mean, what the hey, there are people all over this world today who kill other for their god. And I have heard enough to know that TWI disease was the same sort of insanity that could lead to this kind of thing.

I am having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that Martindale actually said this out loud.

I am having even more trouble wrapping my head around the (very) likelyhood that your hubby probably knew that LCM said this. Even today after what my ex did to me if someone said something like that about her For the sake of my son and the sake of our onceuponatime marriage vows I would need to find SOME kind of way to respond. And it would include some kind of very, very serious indignation on my part.

I mean, even just hearing that he said this to you and others: I am very, very unhappy.

Your hubby had nothing to say.....OMG.....

But I am glad that you've been o.k. since those days too. But right now I am some kind of place where I want to vent, but it would be fairly rude and maybe not do anything good. But if I let myself I could go into a little cussing right now, just so you know.

How many others belong to the "Martindale said he wants to kill me club"?

(added in editing) If my last question leads to any conversation of any substance I'll just quote the responses and start a thread called, " The Martindale said he wanted to kill me club."

Edited by JeffSjo
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