not sure I know what you mean. there's always someone somewhere trying to muddy something. About every wayfer I know is able to pull a subject from nowhere that has nothing to do with anything. I don't know that the intent is to deceive or not. It is frustrating. Maybe I'm off topic.
not many people that were not in the way that i've come across in my life do this except for addicts/alcoholics and batterers and others of the criminal ilk, which i know is the very type of people i knew in the way.
Hey, you left out the Rush, Beck, etc. followers!!
ok a good example that is right from here are those articles about home fellowships and bumper stickers and religious groups in public places. the "defendants" for lack of a better word cry "our rights! our rights!" when they don't really care about rights for anybody but them and they're going around doing things like causing traffic problems and then trying to say the county is trying to prevent them from having a home fellowship but what is really happening is the county is trying to prevent traffic problems and other problems that have nothing to do with what type of group it is but what problems are being caused by the group. if any of that makes sense now that i've butchered it.
another example is i would try to talk to my mom about what was happening to us kids and i'd lay it out for her and instead of responding to what i had said she would say something like "don't you love me and your sisters and brothers? don't you want to obey me so you can have a long life and it will be well with you? how do you think it makes me look when you can't do one simple thing right?" never once even mentioning the bruises or the ripped areas and in fact making sure it wasn't well with me or that i'd probably not have a long life.
and that wasn't exactly what my therapist called it potato but sounds good to me.
how about when you point out an error twi (the one true household) made or in it's teachings and they respond "No religion is perfect. You know, YOU don't have all the answers."
When I think of Muddy Waters I think of one of the best blues/jazz harmonica players ever - and had the pleasure of watching him perform.
When I think of TWI I think of pretty much every word that I can't post here.
Muddy (aka McKinnley Morganfield) is best known for his unmistakable baritone voice, slide guitar and authorship of countless classics covered by everyone from The Rolling Stones to Led Zepplin. But, many people don't realize he started as a harp player. That may be why harmonica played a major role in almost every band he ever led. The list of harp players who worked with him reads like a "who's who" of musicians. It included the likes of Little Walter Jacobs, Big Walter Horton, Junior Wells, James Cotton, Paul Butterfield, Paul Oscher, Jerry Portnoy, George Smith, George Buford, Sonny Boy II, and so forth. And, you could compile a similar list of guitar players, piano players, drummers and bass players.
TWI, on the other hand, is best known for---OK, I can't think of anything right now. Give me a moment.
Covert abuse is sly and underhanded. It is hard to identify and requires long term observation in some situations. It is made up of a few actions and creates an atmosphere of intimidation, uncertainty and perplexity in its victim.
gaslighting
The Double Whammy
In the double whammy, two emotionally hurtful or insulting comments are made, separated by a communication (usually a protest) from the victim. The second abusive remark is typically an attack on the victim's response. "Of course you would say that.. You always play the victim." The first remark hurts and shames and the second invalidates the protest or denies the hurtfulness of the first comment:
"I was only kidding... you have no sense of humor"
"You are too sensitive"
The perpetrator's second remark is often a form of gaslighting.
Your mother belittles your clothes, your job, your friends, and your boyfriend. But instead of fighting back as your friends encourage you to do, you tell them that your mother is often right and that a mature person should be able to take a little criticism.
If you think things like this can't happen to you, think again. Gaslighting is when someone wants you to do what you know you shouldn't and to believe the unbelieveable. It can happen to you and it probably already has.
How do we know? If you consider answering "yes" to even one of the following questions, you've probably been gaslighted:
Does your opinion of yourself change according to approval or disapproval from your spouse?
When your boss praises you, do you feel as if you could conquer the world?
Do you dread having small things go wrong at home - buying the wrong brand of toothpaste, not having dinner ready on time, a mistaken appointment written on the calendar?
Gaslighting is an insidious form of emotional abuse and manipulation that is difficult to recognize and even harder to break free from. That's because it plays into one of our worst fears - of being abandoned - and many of our deepest needs: to be understood, appreciated, and loved. In this groundbreaking guide, the prominent therapist Dr. Robin Stern shows how the Gaslight Effect works
TWI taught its minions to answer a question with a question because questions are what they feared most.
In most cases (with a few exceptions such as slippery politicians) the one asking the questions is in control of the conversation because questions control the flow and focus of the conversation. Also, persistent questioning employing logic has a way of peering into the secret machinations of hierarchies that they would prefer to keep hidden.
but I am thinking you are actually talking about a diversion which is when soemthing comes up and you want to deflect attention away from that subject you point out something that has nothing to do with the subject at hand but which is at the same time emotionally charged
it is a verbal slight of hand.
Some other terms
disingenuous statement
Logical Fallacy
Straw man
Sometimes done by saying but what if...Blah blah blah
Going to disagree on just one point Leafy - a strawman is an argument that is put forth to be deliberately shot at - used commonly in operations as well as research in order to collect disparate ideas and synthesize a solution. A strawman is not a diversion.
Now...for the rest of the story - I agree with you about the other nasty things about TWI's manipulations.
but I am thinking you are actually talking about a diversion which is when soemthing comes up and you want to deflect attention away from that subject you point out something that has nothing to do with the subject at hand but which is at the same time emotionally charged
it is a verbal slight of hand.
Some other terms
disingenuous statement
Logical Fallacy
Straw man
Sometimes done by saying but what if...Blah blah blah
Cognitive dissonance? Holding the "truth" in your thinking, but in the background you're thinking, "Huh? How does that make any kind of sense?" But you donacknowledge or examine that background thought. until you come to GSC!
Going to disagree on just one point Leafy - a strawman is an argument that is put forth to be deliberately shot at - used commonly in operations as well as research in order to collect disparate ideas and synthesize a solution. A strawman is not a diversion.
Now...for the rest of the story - I agree with you about the other nasty things about TWI's manipulations.
Oh yeah I guess you are right about the straw man.. LOL I tend to lump it in with the rest because I think of it as a deliberate way to shift peoples focus from the issue at hand, but it is just my miss understanding of it's purpose.
Muddy Waters was the father of Chicago blues - played with great soul and feeling. Much of modern rock and roll comes from the influence of blues such as this, as well as modern blues itself.
TWI's exactly the opposite. An asphyxiating legalistic dictatorship that sucks the soul out of everything they touch in exchange for a false authoritarian hierarchy they call the household of God.
. . . not many people that were not in the way that i've come across in my life do this except for addicts/alcoholics and batterers and others of the criminal ilk, which i know is the very type of people i knew in the way. is this something learned in the way or is it something people brought to the way and spread it like a disease?
I think everyone does it at times. The rank-and-file are just a little more desperate to protect their fantasies and probably don't even know they do it.
Straw Man occurs when an opponent takes the original argument of his/her adversary and then offers a close imitation, or straw man, version of the original argument; "knocks down" the straw man version of the argument (because the straw man, as its name implies, is a much easier target to hit, undermine, etc.) -- and thereby gives the appearance of having successfully countered/overcome/answered the original argument. ...
"Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse or brainwashing where one individual attempts to get another individual to believe she is "crazy". This is most often done through the denial of facts, events, or what one did or did not say. The gaslighter might also directly or indirectly imply that the individual is defective, crazy, or suffers from a mental illness."
"The term gaslighting was coined in the 1940 and 1944 remake of the movie Gaslight. In this movie the main character is made to believe she is crazy and imagining things by her husband so that he could gain access to her finances. He repeatedly lights a gas lamp in one part of the house, causing the other lamps in the house to become dimmer. When the main character in the movie confronts her husband about this, he repeatedly tells her that she is imagining things and that the lamps are not, in fact, dimmer."
"“Gaslighting is the systematic attempt by one person to erode another’s reality. This is done by telling them that what they are experiencing isn’t so – and, the gradual giving up on the part of the other person.”
"You know you’re in a full blown Gaslight Effect when you find yourself second guessing your own reality; when you’re unsure of what you really think and feel. Why? Because you’ve allowed someone else to define your reality for you. Invariably, this leads to being told what to think and how to think. And then in turn, you’re told who you are. You’re molded into an entity that someone else deems worthy of his or her love, affection; attention."
The typical gaslighter defies Copernican theory. They think THEY are, in fact, the center of the universe. In reality, this blustery bravado masks rampant insecurity. Inside, they’re just scared little boys and girls , very much afraid to be hurt, yet they think they’re too smart, too superior to actually feel the pain they’ve so deeply buried.
Sadly, this fear-based arrogance means they themselves have been “gaslit”…made victims by their own actions."
" Gaslighting is a form of intimidation or psychological abuse in which false information is presented to the victim, making them doubt their own memory and perception. The classic example of gaslighting is to change things in a person's environment without their knowledge, and to explain that they "must be imagining things" when they challenge these changes."
In addition to the straw man (in the sense of misrepresenting your opponent's point and then knocking down the altered version), a common diversion was the false dilemma: give a person two choices, when in fact there are several alternatives: "Do you agree with LCM, or are you possessed?" Obviously, there are times when it was possible to disagree with him and not be possessed.
what a thoroughly educational discussion is happening here! thanks everybody. for one thing i always thought "gaslighting" was lighting your farts on fire. :blink:
and i didn't know that "muddy waters" was a famous person or even for what.
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Bolshevik
not sure I know what you mean. there's always someone somewhere trying to muddy something. About every wayfer I know is able to pull a subject from nowhere that has nothing to do with anything. I don't know that the intent is to deceive or not. It is frustrating. Maybe I'm off topic.
can you give a (generic) example?
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waysider
Hey, you left out the Rush, Beck, etc. followers!!
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potato
logical fallacy, ad hominem most likely. it gets used a lot by certain people here.
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brainfixed
ok a good example that is right from here are those articles about home fellowships and bumper stickers and religious groups in public places. the "defendants" for lack of a better word cry "our rights! our rights!" when they don't really care about rights for anybody but them and they're going around doing things like causing traffic problems and then trying to say the county is trying to prevent them from having a home fellowship but what is really happening is the county is trying to prevent traffic problems and other problems that have nothing to do with what type of group it is but what problems are being caused by the group. if any of that makes sense now that i've butchered it.
another example is i would try to talk to my mom about what was happening to us kids and i'd lay it out for her and instead of responding to what i had said she would say something like "don't you love me and your sisters and brothers? don't you want to obey me so you can have a long life and it will be well with you? how do you think it makes me look when you can't do one simple thing right?" never once even mentioning the bruises or the ripped areas and in fact making sure it wasn't well with me or that i'd probably not have a long life.
and that wasn't exactly what my therapist called it potato but sounds good to me.
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Bolshevik
Okay, maybe I get it.
how about when you point out an error twi (the one true household) made or in it's teachings and they respond "No religion is perfect. You know, YOU don't have all the answers."
oh, wow, silly me.
---------
a red herring maybe?
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RumRunner
Just can't help myself today Brainfixed...
When I think of Muddy Waters I think of one of the best blues/jazz harmonica players ever - and had the pleasure of watching him perform.
When I think of TWI I think of pretty much every word that I can't post here.
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waysider
Muddy (aka McKinnley Morganfield) is best known for his unmistakable baritone voice, slide guitar and authorship of countless classics covered by everyone from The Rolling Stones to Led Zepplin. But, many people don't realize he started as a harp player. That may be why harmonica played a major role in almost every band he ever led. The list of harp players who worked with him reads like a "who's who" of musicians. It included the likes of Little Walter Jacobs, Big Walter Horton, Junior Wells, James Cotton, Paul Butterfield, Paul Oscher, Jerry Portnoy, George Smith, George Buford, Sonny Boy II, and so forth. And, you could compile a similar list of guitar players, piano players, drummers and bass players.
TWI, on the other hand, is best known for---OK, I can't think of anything right now. Give me a moment.
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RumRunner
Thanks for the more historical info on Muddy Waysider. When I saw him he was still playing harp...most ecellent
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excathedra
maybe it's called the control game
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excathedra
covert abuse ? passive-aggressive ?
gaslighting
ok, i'll shut up for now
sowwy
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oenophile
TWI taught its minions to answer a question with a question because questions are what they feared most.
In most cases (with a few exceptions such as slippery politicians) the one asking the questions is in control of the conversation because questions control the flow and focus of the conversation. Also, persistent questioning employing logic has a way of peering into the secret machinations of hierarchies that they would prefer to keep hidden.
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leafytwiglet
HEre is a site that explains them all
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
but I am thinking you are actually talking about a diversion which is when soemthing comes up and you want to deflect attention away from that subject you point out something that has nothing to do with the subject at hand but which is at the same time emotionally charged
it is a verbal slight of hand.
Some other terms
disingenuous statement
Logical Fallacy
Straw man
Sometimes done by saying but what if...Blah blah blah
Edited by leafytwigletLink to comment
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RumRunner
Going to disagree on just one point Leafy - a strawman is an argument that is put forth to be deliberately shot at - used commonly in operations as well as research in order to collect disparate ideas and synthesize a solution. A strawman is not a diversion.
Now...for the rest of the story - I agree with you about the other nasty things about TWI's manipulations.
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Bramble
Cognitive dissonance? Holding the "truth" in your thinking, but in the background you're thinking, "Huh? How does that make any kind of sense?" But you donacknowledge or examine that background thought. until you come to GSC!
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leafytwiglet
Oh yeah I guess you are right about the straw man.. LOL I tend to lump it in with the rest because I think of it as a deliberate way to shift peoples focus from the issue at hand, but it is just my miss understanding of it's purpose.
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WordWolf
Strawmen CAN be used as diversions- they're used to change the subject or tie up discussion
by introducing irrelevant-and false- representations about what other people are saying or doing.
twi example: lcm, when he ran twi, said that the Pope bought an aircraft carrier and was getting
ready to force conversions to Catholicism.
It was a strawman, a false representation of what the Pope supposedly was doing,
introduced so lcm the nut would look less nutty.
"Look- other people are even crazier than me! So, I'm the sanest leader around!"
Something along those lines.
Strawmen have been used-often-by plenty of twi and ex-twi over time. We've seen it
here a number of times. Often they were done to derail entirely discussions the poster
didn't like.
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chockfull
The Way International and Muddy Waters
Muddy Waters was the father of Chicago blues - played with great soul and feeling. Much of modern rock and roll comes from the influence of blues such as this, as well as modern blues itself.
TWI's exactly the opposite. An asphyxiating legalistic dictatorship that sucks the soul out of everything they touch in exchange for a false authoritarian hierarchy they call the household of God.
One - played with soul.
Other - sucks out soul.
Any questions?
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Bolshevik
I think everyone does it at times. The rank-and-file are just a little more desperate to protect their fantasies and probably don't even know they do it.
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bulwinkl
http://www.drury.edu/ess/Logic/Informal/Strawman.html
I know I'm a tad anal at times about this stuff for some reason.
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excathedra
i've been gaslighted
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WordWolf
The term "gaslighting" probably comes from the old movie, where a woman is made to feel as if
she's crazy, but she's perfectly sane.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1...wn_form_of.html
"Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse or brainwashing where one individual attempts to get another individual to believe she is "crazy". This is most often done through the denial of facts, events, or what one did or did not say. The gaslighter might also directly or indirectly imply that the individual is defective, crazy, or suffers from a mental illness."
"The term gaslighting was coined in the 1940 and 1944 remake of the movie Gaslight. In this movie the main character is made to believe she is crazy and imagining things by her husband so that he could gain access to her finances. He repeatedly lights a gas lamp in one part of the house, causing the other lamps in the house to become dimmer. When the main character in the movie confronts her husband about this, he repeatedly tells her that she is imagining things and that the lamps are not, in fact, dimmer."
http://lauriekendrick.wordpress.com/2008/0...of-gaslighting/
"“Gaslighting is the systematic attempt by one person to erode another’s reality. This is done by telling them that what they are experiencing isn’t so – and, the gradual giving up on the part of the other person.”
"You know you’re in a full blown Gaslight Effect when you find yourself second guessing your own reality; when you’re unsure of what you really think and feel. Why? Because you’ve allowed someone else to define your reality for you. Invariably, this leads to being told what to think and how to think. And then in turn, you’re told who you are. You’re molded into an entity that someone else deems worthy of his or her love, affection; attention."
The typical gaslighter defies Copernican theory. They think THEY are, in fact, the center of the universe. In reality, this blustery bravado masks rampant insecurity. Inside, they’re just scared little boys and girls , very much afraid to be hurt, yet they think they’re too smart, too superior to actually feel the pain they’ve so deeply buried.
Sadly, this fear-based arrogance means they themselves have been “gaslit”…made victims by their own actions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
" Gaslighting is a form of intimidation or psychological abuse in which false information is presented to the victim, making them doubt their own memory and perception. The classic example of gaslighting is to change things in a person's environment without their knowledge, and to explain that they "must be imagining things" when they challenge these changes."
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Bolshevik
. . this little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine, let it shine, let it shine . . .
he he he . . . err
:unsure:
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GeorgeStGeorge
In addition to the straw man (in the sense of misrepresenting your opponent's point and then knocking down the altered version), a common diversion was the false dilemma: give a person two choices, when in fact there are several alternatives: "Do you agree with LCM, or are you possessed?" Obviously, there are times when it was possible to disagree with him and not be possessed.
George
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brainfixed
what a thoroughly educational discussion is happening here! thanks everybody. for one thing i always thought "gaslighting" was lighting your farts on fire. :blink:
and i didn't know that "muddy waters" was a famous person or even for what.
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