Lies and deception as a way of life

[Tzaia]

After reading the verse they laughed and said it "isn't as good as the KJV" and then reread it in their book and then pointed out how that version is better and more accurate! Seriously?????

Oh yeah, and the NASV, the Amplified, the Message - you name it. One of the reasons why the KJV is so much better and so much more accurate is that most, if not all, of VPW's doctrinal arguments fall apart if you look at another version. If you use the study materials, the interlinear, and the concordance that TWI uses, it is possible to come to the same conclusions as TWI. The reason why I say it's possible is that reading the KJV with a 20th century knowledge of words plays into some of TWI's more esoteric concepts. Once I sat down and read the KJV NT with a dictionary that provided the changes in word meaning over the years (which I was roundly criticized for doing) I began to understand the bible in a very different way than was taught by TWI.

Unfortunately, most people don't know enough about the history of the KJV to know that it was "translated" from sources that are newer than have been used to create the NIV and some of the other versions out there.

The greater "truth" is that our salvation is not based upon having a perfect understanding of God's Word. That is where TWI misses the mark completely.

[WordWolf]

In ONE respect, the KJV has an advantage- the italics indicate where the translators admit they added words.

In other respects, the KJV has disadvantages- despite it being updated since 1611, it's not based on any of the

documents uncovered in the 20th century, which many versions ARE. Also, the phraseology, the wording,

is not only ARCHAIC, it's INCONSISTENT.

The New King James Version is a slight improvement over the KJV, and I recommend it be used in place of

the KJV, period. Furthermore, the New American Standard Bible (version) is more modern than either

(is based on more recent documents), is not archaic, and is more CONSISTENT in its translation

(word "A" usually translates into word "1" and not words "1" or "2" or "3" or "4" depending on the

occurrences. Therefore, the NASB, as I see it, is the Bible of choice for those who are serious about their

translations, AND like the italics. Sadly, other than the Watchtower Society's version, they're the only

ones with any kind of marker like that.

The NIV isn't bad. It offers the modern language and the later documents, but doesn't have the italics.

That makes it a toss-up against the KJV. (If it had the italics, it would be superior beyond argument.)

However, vpw often based things on the phraseology of the KJV in ENGLISH rather than going back to

the older languages- even when it was obvious with a little work that his claims were WRONG.

Then again, try and correct vpw or claim he was sloppy to twi'ers and see how far you get...

[chockfull]

The really inane thing about it is that "present truth" appears as a phrase in the KJV Bible,

but they've applied what they refer to as "private interpretation" to it!

2 Peter 1:12

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

This isn't talking about truth NOW, since truth is truth, and does not change with opinion.

It's talking about the truth that's HERE- the truth is PRESENT! You don't need to hunt for it- here it is!

(One of our posters pointed this out YEARS AGO. Naturally, they're still teaching it INCORRECTLY

rather than admit a mistake.)

But lcm (who was made "head of the research dept") did something vpw was fond of doing-

focusing on King James Version English, then forming a teaching or doctrine around something

without ever seeing if the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic/Syriac matched what he said.

Here's the same verse in different versions.

The New International Version.

2 Peter 1:12

So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have.

New American Standard.

2 Peter 1:12

Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you.

Contemporary English Version.

2 Peter 1:12

You are holding firmly to the truth that you were given. But I am still going to remind you of these things.

English Standard Version.

2 Peter 1:12

Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.

hahahahahaha.

This is so classic. TWI has huge amounts of doctrine, songs, policies all centered around interpreting the word "present" as in contrast to "past" when the true interpretation of the word is "with you" or "in proximity to".

Great example of making the scriptures say whatever you want them to so you can promote your own agenda.

[JeffSjo]

Based on the newer view of "The Way International" I have picked up on since visiting the greasespot this is my ATTEMPT TO UNSPIN THE PHRASE "PRESENT TRUTH" AS USED BY TWI.....

We cannot handle the truth of our founding fathers' actions or mannerisms.

We cannot deal with these things publicly either. So we will continue to lie and spin our "WAY" out of the jam we are in.

We will continue to run the ministry as we see fit in spite of the fact that the manners we learned were poison.

We will fool them all, or at least enough of them, to continue fooling others (and maybe even ourselves) into thinking that we are serving God.

WE WILL CALL IT "THE PRESENT TRUTH."

(added in editng)

P.S.

Can anyone give me some history and/or context of this phrase "present truth" as they use it. Even without some specific contexts I'm willing to go with the first part of this post.

I am not anticipating having to "recant" or anything like that right now. :B) The only reason that I mention that possibility at all is because I am more reasonable than TWI leadership. :P

Edited June 12, 2009 by JeffSjo

[Broken Arrow]

deception was coached. wow year was hell, with carmen and rupp all over us every other minute to get people to take the class, take the class, take the class. we had corps there a bunch of times, showing us how to deceive people into coming to fellowship, telling us not to tell too much because they'd get instantly turned off, had to feed it to them a little at a time as they "matured".

Yup! Not a whole lot different than from being invited to an Amway meeting.

Edited June 13, 2009 by erkjohn

[WordWolf]

TWI just blatantly wrongly divides 2 Peter 1:12 and invented "present truth" doctrine in order biblically justify being wishy washy or changing thier minds.<BR><BR>

Add to this the doctrines of "old wineskin" and whereonly certain leaders ( BOT ?) get revelation and the possibilities are endless. <BR><BR>

For example: <BR><BR>

The BOT decides that folks shouldn't own a house - House ownership becomes an "old wineskin" while TWI's new debt policy becomes "present truth". <BR><BR>

Oops that backfired! -- To many folks leaving over this. What shall we do to save the ABS? Oh, let's not admit we were wrong and stupid. Let's just get some "revelation" and let the debt policy become an "old wineskin" but still necessary at the time. And let's say that new "present truth" allows folks to own homes! <BR><BR>

Pretty nifty -eh ?<BR><BR>

Of course this only works in a cult like TWI where the followers take the word of their leaders over that of scripture. I wonder if the current innies even read their Bibles or do even basic research anymore. It does not seem like if they actually buy into this "present truth" horsepucky.

<BR><hr class="ev_code_hr" /><BR><BR>2Pe 1:12 (KJV)<BR><BR>

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know [them], and be established in the present truth. <BR><BR>

Strong's equates this word in the Greek with pareimi, however the word in the text is actually "parouse" or "parousei" depending upon the text you look at.<BR><BR>

A morphological analysis of parousei indicates it is from "paro/w"<BR>which means to mutilate or to pierce or something along those lines. That just does not seem to fit so I looked up some classical Greek literature and found several usages of "parousei" and the translators of these texts translate parousei the same as "pareimi" so I'll go with Strong's here ...<BR><BR>(pareimi )<BR><BR>

1) to be by, be at hand, to have arrived, to be present<BR><BR>2) to be ready, in store, at command<BR> <BR>

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 23 <BR>AV - be present 9, come 7, present 3, be present here 1, be here 1,<BR> such things as one hath + 3588 1,<BR> he that lacketh + 3361 + 3739 1; 23<BR><BR><BR>It's pretty clear that "present" in 2 Peter 1:12 does NOT have anything to do with time as in past, present and future, but rather has to do with "presence". Think of it as the opposite of "absent".