deception was coached. wow year was hell, with carmen and rupp all over us every other minute to get people to take the class, take the class, take the class. we had corps there a bunch of times, showing us how to deceive people into coming to fellowship, telling us not to tell too much because they'd get instantly turned off, had to feed it to them a little at a time as they "matured".
twi has its roots in deception, with the "don't tell all you know" doctrine, to keep people coming for more. Paul didn't teach like that, so why does twi? maybe they don't anymore because there is no new revelation since lcm is gone.
we were supposed to go into the corps, but my ex was such in a mess of lies during our apprentice year we got called on the carpet. the LC decided to sweep it all under the carpet and told us to go anyway because it was the "only way he's going to grow up" (talking about my ex). we lasted a week in-residence before my ex's deceptions started leaking out and we got the boot. how in the world was living a life under minute scrutiny going to cure a pathological liar? I think that's a good example of leadership having their heads up their arses that they'd send a deceiver to learn to deceive the masses, only with the "truth" instead of his own make-believe.
the second time way corps was brought up, I declined to put any effort into going, as I should have done the first time. I was done with living that lie.
There was once when my group tried to get us to witness to people to get them to come to open meetings in my former splinter group.
I felt that to even bring folks there while they expected to hear something good would be a deception.
My response to leadership was a sarcastic," Why, when I consider how well I've been loved here it makes it very clear to me how many people I'll be bringing around."
As usual, some of leadership caught the intent of my sarcasm, but most people did not. Their critical thinking skills were very much in the process of being eliminated at that point.
The whole concept of witnessing and undershepharding is based on deception.
Time and time and time again we hear people speak of the "date and switch" tactic.
I know it's real because I am a living example of someone who fell victim to this practice.
The gal who signed me up for "The Class" didn't bother to tell me she was engaged even though she devoted every moment of her free time to "undershepherding" me. The whole twig knew about it and kept it under their hats until I was fully enraptured with the class.
Here are some things from Witnessing and Undershepherding:
Page 3
Power of Attorney:
There are occasions when the principle (Jesus Christ) is not available to carry on his business. He may then execute a general Power of Attorney authorizing an attorney in fact (born again believers). As his agent to carry on his business for him.
************************
( We are mini-Christs here on Earth??----This idea is so wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to even start!)
page 10
Sell out to the ministry--grow in commitment
(Need I say more on this one?)
page 14
Under The Shepherd--shepherding
1.Show the person that you love him:
a.Compliment him-reinforce his good points.
b. Do little things for him.
c. Let him know that you are willing to help him whenever he needs it. (even at 3:00 a.m.)
d.Be interested in that person's interests, especially his chief interests.
(The more you know about a person, the better.)
e. Just schedule your person into your life (e.g., if you are going out for a coke or coffee, call them up and take them along.)
2. Undershepherding does not stop with the class.
(Remember, we might be talking about people we just met last week here!--can friendship be any more contrived than this?)
page 15 ---(saving the good stuff for last)
7. Build his vision of his part in the outreach of God's Word. Tell him about the Intermediate class, the great knowledge-packed tapes from Headquarters, the Home Study lessons, and the Advanced Class. People can't go farther than they are shown, so we show them that they can go as far as they want with God in his ministry.
(Good lord!---If this isn't a sugar coated version of "build the sale", I don't know what is!)
d.Be interested in that person's interests, especially his chief interests.
We had a family of cute young female WoWs in my area one year that constantly had a full house at twig all year long...When I asked how wnd where they 'witnessed'..they told me that they always went dancing and just invited guys over to their house with no mention whatsoever of the bible, twig, TWI or anything spiritual....I dont know how many guys they ran through PFAL that year--but they were all over anyone that pretended to show even the slightest interest.
And, you know, the crazy part is that we convinced ourselves (or, at least, I convinced myself) that it was ok for the ends to justify the means. Yeah. I mean, so what if we duped someone into coming to twig through feigned interest in them as a human being? It was all for their own good because they were getting to see the greatness of the Word. That makes it alright, doesn't it? And, hey, they'll thank us some day, I'm sure.
You know, in Fellow Laborers, we weren't even allowed to undershepherd the people we witnessed to. Yup, we turned their contact info over to local believers for that task. Doesn't that just ooze of genuine concern for them as fellow humans?
Deception?...We followed a man who was a master deceiver. What other fruit could have come from following Vic the flim flam man?...honest Christian service?...green card my arse.
When I was a kid we would turn out all the lights and hide behind the couch as a family so that the kids trick-or-treating wouldn't give us any devil spurts. I remember my neighborhood friends knocking at the door saying "I know your in their"
Their whole pitch about "The Present Truth" is a butload of deception, how people can eat this snakeoil and call it good is beyond me. You could say and demand just about anything from people under the umbrella of this is the present truth! How slimey slipery of them to make this their motto. People have to be somewhat braindead, lulled to sleep, to allow others to weild such power over them.
I am thankful that I happen to live in a country where it is available to think for myself. But their are entire countries where pretty much everyone is forced to let others have that kind of power over them.
I tend to think of the problem to which you speak as a human problem that just happens to apply to TWI as "you see now". (a half hearted play on words....sorry ....kind of.... o.k.,not really)
When I was a kid we would turn out all the lights and hide behind the couch as a family so that the kids trick-or-treating wouldn't give us any devil spurts. I remember my neighborhood friends knocking at the door saying "I know your in their"
When I was a kid we would turn out all the lights and hide behind the couch as a family so that the kids trick-or-treating wouldn't give us any devil spurts. I remember my neighborhood friends knocking at the door saying "I know your in their"
When I went Way D, I went "bless and treating".
:blink:
That's a whole 'nother subject, Twi & holidays.
On the one hand, all of these holidays had "evil" pagan origins, and we'd scoff at the poor idiots who were "deceived", but we would follow the same traditions ourselves, as if calling it "Household Holiday" or "Bless & Treat" made it any better. At least the Jehovah's Witnesses are consistant
Hey Jeffsio, I think those left at twi are being led about the nose and are following their leadership blindly, and those who are still following twi are somewhat braindead, lulled to sleep, in allowing others to weild such power over them as their moto of "the present truth", enables their leaders to continue doing so.
Hey Jeffsio, I think those left at twi are being led about the nose and are following their leadership blindly, and those who are still following twi are somewhat braindead, lulled to sleep, in allowing others to weild such power over them as their moto of "the present truth", enables their leaders to continue doing so.
It is sad that they have become such good liars and decievers. I appreciate hearing the more recent versions of their b.s. that they cram down people's throats though. It may be useful someday...who knows... if not, I'd rather be informed.
"The Present Truth", it has the ring of a catchy but real revolting jingle. Maybe because I've have a different perspective of the source than I did not too long ago.
It is sad that they have become such good liars and decievers. I appreciate hearing the more recent versions of their b.s. that they cram down people's throats though. It may be useful someday...who knows... if not, I'd rather be informed.
"The Present Truth", it has the ring of a catchy but real revolting jingle. Maybe because I've have a different perspective of the source than I did not too long ago.
The really inane thing about it is that "present truth" appears as a phrase in the KJV Bible,
but they've applied what they refer to as "private interpretation" to it!
2 Peter 1:12
Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
This isn't talking about truth NOW, since truth is truth, and does not change with opinion.
It's talking about the truth that's HERE- the truth is PRESENT! You don't need to hunt for it- here it is!
(One of our posters pointed this out YEARS AGO. Naturally, they're still teaching it INCORRECTLY
rather than admit a mistake.)
But lcm (who was made "head of the research dept") did something vpw was fond of doing-
focusing on King James Version English, then forming a teaching or doctrine around something
without ever seeing if the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic/Syriac matched what he said.
Here's the same verse in different versions.
The New International Version.
2 Peter 1:12
So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have.
New American Standard.
2 Peter 1:12
Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you.
Contemporary English Version.
2 Peter 1:12
You are holding firmly to the truth that you were given. But I am still going to remind you of these things.
English Standard Version.
2 Peter 1:12
Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.
twi parents love their children more than "worldly" parents . . .
cause they don't lie to them about Santa Clause
right, because all "worldly" parents are out to make sure their kids believe in santa. that one is so dumb!
I never intended letting my kids buy into the santa myth anyway, because as a kid I had problems with it myself. for instance, obviously rich kids are a lot more "good" than poor kids, because santa brings them more and better presents, so poor kids are, if not bad, then at least not as good. then of course I had a real problem trusting my mother once I found out santa wasn't real, because I suspected that she could be lying about pretty much anything, since she'd successfully deceived me for the first 7 years of my life.
I worked all this out before I ever heard of twi. I know a lot of people who don't even celebrate christmas, they just have a tree and give gifts. so how santa is an unbeliever conspiracy, I'll never figure out, but twi managed to spin it that way.
When I started going to fellowhip, I brought my pretty new Bible, which I was proud of purchasing (I even bought tabs to list all the books of the bible). Anyway it was the NIV and I brought it with me, because it is a BIBLE. Well, on this night we were going around and reading passages (don't remember which) and when it came to me I HAD TO APOLOGIZE for having the WRONG VERSION. After reading the verse they laughed and said it "isn't as good as the KJV" and then reread it in their book and then pointed out how that version is better and more accurate! Seriously?????
Eight-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon wrote a letter to the editor of New York's Sun, and the quick response was printed as an unsigned editorial Sept. 21, 1897. The work of veteran newsman Francis Pharcellus Church has since become history's most reprinted newspaper editorial, appearing in part or whole in dozens of languages in books, movies, and other editorials, and on posters and stamps.
"DEAR EDITOR: I am 8 years old.
"Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus.
"Papa says, 'If you see it in THE SUN it's so.'
"Please tell me the truth; is there a Santa Claus?
"VIRGINIA O'HANLON.
"115 WEST NINETY-FIFTH STREET."
VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.
Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.
Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.
You may tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.
No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.
When I started going to fellowhip, I brought my pretty new Bible, which I was proud of purchasing (I even bought tabs to list all the books of the bible). Anyway it was the NIV and I brought it with me, because it is a BIBLE. Well, on this night we were going around and reading passages (don't remember which) and when it came to me I HAD TO APOLOGIZE for having the WRONG VERSION. After reading the verse they laughed and said it "isn't as good as the KJV" and then reread it in their book and then pointed out how that version is better and more accurate! Seriously?????
VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.
I've got a book that shows different versions of verses, up to 26 different version are available on any verse with variences. That is my favorite way of reading the bible now, I can see all the other translations right on the same page. This kind of thing is also online too.
Jeff, you are right, it is revolting what TWI does to the bible and God himself!
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potato
deception was coached. wow year was hell, with carmen and rupp all over us every other minute to get people to take the class, take the class, take the class. we had corps there a bunch of times, showing us how to deceive people into coming to fellowship, telling us not to tell too much because they'd get instantly turned off, had to feed it to them a little at a time as they "matured".
twi has its roots in deception, with the "don't tell all you know" doctrine, to keep people coming for more. Paul didn't teach like that, so why does twi? maybe they don't anymore because there is no new revelation since lcm is gone.
we were supposed to go into the corps, but my ex was such in a mess of lies during our apprentice year we got called on the carpet. the LC decided to sweep it all under the carpet and told us to go anyway because it was the "only way he's going to grow up" (talking about my ex). we lasted a week in-residence before my ex's deceptions started leaking out and we got the boot. how in the world was living a life under minute scrutiny going to cure a pathological liar? I think that's a good example of leadership having their heads up their arses that they'd send a deceiver to learn to deceive the masses, only with the "truth" instead of his own make-believe.
the second time way corps was brought up, I declined to put any effort into going, as I should have done the first time. I was done with living that lie.
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JeffSjo
There was once when my group tried to get us to witness to people to get them to come to open meetings in my former splinter group.
I felt that to even bring folks there while they expected to hear something good would be a deception.
My response to leadership was a sarcastic," Why, when I consider how well I've been loved here it makes it very clear to me how many people I'll be bringing around."
As usual, some of leadership caught the intent of my sarcasm, but most people did not. Their critical thinking skills were very much in the process of being eliminated at that point.
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waysider
The whole concept of witnessing and undershepharding is based on deception.
Time and time and time again we hear people speak of the "date and switch" tactic.
I know it's real because I am a living example of someone who fell victim to this practice.
The gal who signed me up for "The Class" didn't bother to tell me she was engaged even though she devoted every moment of her free time to "undershepherding" me. The whole twig knew about it and kept it under their hats until I was fully enraptured with the class.
Here are some things from Witnessing and Undershepherding:
Page 3
Power of Attorney:
There are occasions when the principle (Jesus Christ) is not available to carry on his business. He may then execute a general Power of Attorney authorizing an attorney in fact (born again believers). As his agent to carry on his business for him.
************************
( We are mini-Christs here on Earth??----This idea is so wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to even start!)
page 10
Sell out to the ministry--grow in commitment
(Need I say more on this one?)
page 14
Under The Shepherd--shepherding
1.Show the person that you love him:
a.Compliment him-reinforce his good points.
b. Do little things for him.
c. Let him know that you are willing to help him whenever he needs it. (even at 3:00 a.m.)
d.Be interested in that person's interests, especially his chief interests.
(The more you know about a person, the better.)
e. Just schedule your person into your life (e.g., if you are going out for a coke or coffee, call them up and take them along.)
2. Undershepherding does not stop with the class.
(Remember, we might be talking about people we just met last week here!--can friendship be any more contrived than this?)
page 15 ---(saving the good stuff for last)
7. Build his vision of his part in the outreach of God's Word. Tell him about the Intermediate class, the great knowledge-packed tapes from Headquarters, the Home Study lessons, and the Advanced Class. People can't go farther than they are shown, so we show them that they can go as far as they want with God in his ministry.
(Good lord!---If this isn't a sugar coated version of "build the sale", I don't know what is!)
********************************************************************************
*******
Yes, I would agree that the type of lifestyle that The Way promoted (my tenure was 1972-1990) was heavily based on lies and deliberate deception.
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mstar1
We had a family of cute young female WoWs in my area one year that constantly had a full house at twig all year long...When I asked how wnd where they 'witnessed'..they told me that they always went dancing and just invited guys over to their house with no mention whatsoever of the bible, twig, TWI or anything spiritual....I dont know how many guys they ran through PFAL that year--but they were all over anyone that pretended to show even the slightest interest.
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waysider
And, you know, the crazy part is that we convinced ourselves (or, at least, I convinced myself) that it was ok for the ends to justify the means. Yeah. I mean, so what if we duped someone into coming to twig through feigned interest in them as a human being? It was all for their own good because they were getting to see the greatness of the Word. That makes it alright, doesn't it? And, hey, they'll thank us some day, I'm sure.
You know, in Fellow Laborers, we weren't even allowed to undershepherd the people we witnessed to. Yup, we turned their contact info over to local believers for that task. Doesn't that just ooze of genuine concern for them as fellow humans?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Deception?...We followed a man who was a master deceiver. What other fruit could have come from following Vic the flim flam man?...honest Christian service?...green card my arse.
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excathedra
major barf to all or at least most of the above
what a bunch of lies and deception
at this time, i can't even begin to speak about it, it makes me so sick
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Ham
My most bizarre experience was when the local bigwig decided we needed to go door to door and sing Christmas carols..
a couple of them had wayspeak "corrections" applied to them.. surreal..
we don't believe in Christmas.. but then we believe in Christmas.. of sorts..
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Bolshevik
reminds me of "Bless and Treat".
When I was a kid we would turn out all the lights and hide behind the couch as a family so that the kids trick-or-treating wouldn't give us any devil spurts. I remember my neighborhood friends knocking at the door saying "I know your in their"
When I went Way D, I went "bless and treating".
:blink:
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now I see
Their whole pitch about "The Present Truth" is a butload of deception, how people can eat this snakeoil and call it good is beyond me. You could say and demand just about anything from people under the umbrella of this is the present truth! How slimey slipery of them to make this their motto. People have to be somewhat braindead, lulled to sleep, to allow others to weild such power over them.
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JeffSjo
Dear Now I See,
I am thankful that I happen to live in a country where it is available to think for myself. But their are entire countries where pretty much everyone is forced to let others have that kind of power over them.
I tend to think of the problem to which you speak as a human problem that just happens to apply to TWI as "you see now". (a half hearted play on words....sorry ....kind of.... o.k.,not really)
(edited for grammar)
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excathedra
ohmygod i've heard it all now lol
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Oakspear
On the one hand, all of these holidays had "evil" pagan origins, and we'd scoff at the poor idiots who were "deceived", but we would follow the same traditions ourselves, as if calling it "Household Holiday" or "Bless & Treat" made it any better.
At least the Jehovah's Witnesses are consistant 
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Bolshevik
twi parents love their children more than "worldly" parents . . .
cause they don't lie to them about Santa Clause
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now I see
Hey Jeffsio, I think those left at twi are being led about the nose and are following their leadership blindly, and those who are still following twi are somewhat braindead, lulled to sleep, in allowing others to weild such power over them as their moto of "the present truth", enables their leaders to continue doing so.
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JeffSjo
It is sad that they have become such good liars and decievers. I appreciate hearing the more recent versions of their b.s. that they cram down people's throats though. It may be useful someday...who knows... if not, I'd rather be informed.
"The Present Truth", it has the ring of a catchy but real revolting jingle. Maybe because I've have a different perspective of the source than I did not too long ago.
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WordWolf
The really inane thing about it is that "present truth" appears as a phrase in the KJV Bible,
but they've applied what they refer to as "private interpretation" to it!
2 Peter 1:12
Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
This isn't talking about truth NOW, since truth is truth, and does not change with opinion.
It's talking about the truth that's HERE- the truth is PRESENT! You don't need to hunt for it- here it is!
(One of our posters pointed this out YEARS AGO. Naturally, they're still teaching it INCORRECTLY
rather than admit a mistake.)
But lcm (who was made "head of the research dept") did something vpw was fond of doing-
focusing on King James Version English, then forming a teaching or doctrine around something
without ever seeing if the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic/Syriac matched what he said.
Here's the same verse in different versions.
The New International Version.
2 Peter 1:12
So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have.
New American Standard.
2 Peter 1:12
Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you.
Contemporary English Version.
2 Peter 1:12
You are holding firmly to the truth that you were given. But I am still going to remind you of these things.
English Standard Version.
2 Peter 1:12
Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.
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potato
right, because all "worldly" parents are out to make sure their kids believe in santa. that one is so dumb!
I never intended letting my kids buy into the santa myth anyway, because as a kid I had problems with it myself. for instance, obviously rich kids are a lot more "good" than poor kids, because santa brings them more and better presents, so poor kids are, if not bad, then at least not as good. then of course I had a real problem trusting my mother once I found out santa wasn't real, because I suspected that she could be lying about pretty much anything, since she'd successfully deceived me for the first 7 years of my life.
I worked all this out before I ever heard of twi. I know a lot of people who don't even celebrate christmas, they just have a tree and give gifts. so how santa is an unbeliever conspiracy, I'll never figure out, but twi managed to spin it that way.
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believersnonbeliever
When I started going to fellowhip, I brought my pretty new Bible, which I was proud of purchasing (I even bought tabs to list all the books of the bible). Anyway it was the NIV and I brought it with me, because it is a BIBLE. Well, on this night we were going around and reading passages (don't remember which) and when it came to me I HAD TO APOLOGIZE for having the WRONG VERSION. After reading the verse they laughed and said it "isn't as good as the KJV" and then reread it in their book and then pointed out how that version is better and more accurate! Seriously?????
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waysider
Yes, Virginia, There is a Santa Claus
Eight-year-old Virginia O'Hanlon wrote a letter to the editor of New York's Sun, and the quick response was printed as an unsigned editorial Sept. 21, 1897. The work of veteran newsman Francis Pharcellus Church has since become history's most reprinted newspaper editorial, appearing in part or whole in dozens of languages in books, movies, and other editorials, and on posters and stamps.
"DEAR EDITOR: I am 8 years old.
"Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus.
"Papa says, 'If you see it in THE SUN it's so.'
"Please tell me the truth; is there a Santa Claus?
"VIRGINIA O'HANLON.
"115 WEST NINETY-FIFTH STREET."
VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.
Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.
Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.
You may tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.
No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.
http://www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/
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Bolshevik
yes, they are serious
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excathedra
oh i bought the wrong frikkin bible too
but what the heck was i supposed to do since i begged my catholic grandparents for money for the class
makes me sick
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Bolshevik
ah yes, but we have the truth! vpw did the work!
the natural man just can't see . . .
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now I see
I've got a book that shows different versions of verses, up to 26 different version are available on any verse with variences. That is my favorite way of reading the bible now, I can see all the other translations right on the same page. This kind of thing is also online too.
Jeff, you are right, it is revolting what TWI does to the bible and God himself!
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