i'd like to know how people here handled and perceived what was going on with their children or other people's children when acting out behavior happened. i have assumed all of these years that it was the hell everywhere that is was for us, but some discussions here indicate that maybe some of the children grew up not quite so violently changed by their forced involvement in the way international.
[From what I've heard around here,
before the big 88/89 split,
your exposure to dysfunctional, dangerous, and harmful childrearing practices depended on
your proximity to Root locales. If you were on grounds in the Family Corps, or HQ, or one of
those places, you were in for it. The worst part about it was the long periods with parents
separated from their children, with an adult untrained in supervising children watching over
them, ready to clobber them with the wooden spoon all adults were expected to carry.
Unless you were the child of a bigwig. Then, instead of physical abuse, you got abuse by
abandonment and lack of boundaries. You could get away with almost anything- and often did.
I'm not sure who was worse off, of the 2 categories of abused children.
AFTER the 88/89 split,
twi was in a sort of "trickle-down" mode, and things that used to be reserved for private use
at the Root locales became standard everywhere, including abusing children by clobbering them
if they didn't conform to your whims. Then again, the parents who actually did this were abused
by twi first-otherwise they wouldn't have agreed to commit battery on their children.
So, the abuse trickled down....]
feel free to ask me questions but i may or may not answer them depending on if i feel safe about answering them or not, and i will not answer what i recognize as baiting questions.
[That's a safe approach. A few posters in the history of the GSC have shown themselves to be
masters at asking those sorts of questions. Most of them aren't posting now, however, so this
caution MIGHT not be needed.]
also this is not something i am asking for "help" about so much as i just want to discuss things. also please feel free to add any information you think fits the discussion. thanks.
[That's always good to add, I think. :)
I think I'll look for a few links to previous discussions in case they were missed.
(Although I probably linked them recently already-but I may be wrong.]
your exposure to dysfunctional, dangerous, and harmful childrearing practices depended on
your proximity to Root locales. If you were on grounds in the Family Corps, or HQ, or one of
those places, you were in for it. The worst part about it was the long periods with parents
separated from their children, with an adult untrained in supervising children watching over
them, ready to clobber them with the wooden spoon all adults were expected to carry.
Unless you were the child of a bigwig. Then, instead of physical abuse, you got abuse by
abandonment and lack of boundaries. You could get away with almost anything- and often did.
I'm not sure who was worse off, of the 2 categories of abused children.
AFTER the 88/89 split,
twi was in a sort of "trickle-down" mode, and things that used to be reserved for private use
at the Root locales became standard everywhere, including abusing children by clobbering them
if they didn't conform to your whims. Then again, the parents who actually did this were abused
by twi first-otherwise they wouldn't have agreed to commit battery on their children.
So, the abuse trickled down....]...
I was in Family Corps 11 [as a parent] and so would strongly agree with Word Wolf's points. Our son was in the Mini Corps and after we left TWI he developed a HUGE rebellious streak in him a mile wide!...hmmmm...I wonder if the Nazi-Parenting skills we all mimicked while in residence had anything to do with that ...damn ya know it does!!!!! Some may say payback is hell - but I love him for it and it's one of the great qualities I admire in my son - he is the man I should have been in TWI...don't know how long I'd have lasted before they gave me the boot though .
Seriously though...it's just awful what child rearing practices TWI promoted...my heart goes out to the kids impacted by this regime.
I too am sorry for what you had to endure brainfixed. It sounds like there are many issues you are dealing with. I only wish you health, recovery, and a happy life. I never saw anyone hurt their children. . . even the limb leaders I was close to. That is NOT to say it didn't happen. I believe it did. I just never witnessed anything like what you have laid forth.
Here are some things to be made aware of though. . . given the discussion.
Any parent who knows that another person is abusing his/her child and takes no action to stop the abuse is subject to criminal prosecution.
There are extensions or eliminations of time limitations for charging criminal offenses related to child victims.
Meaning, if you subjected your child to abusive situations and did not protect or remove them for their saftey. . . .you can be prosecuted years later.
Child abuse is a criminal act. To admit that you subjected your child to it or that you witnessed it and did not report it or remove them. . . is technically admitting to a criminal act.
If you have ever sat in a courtroom and watched a prosecutor, like a dog with a bone, make a case. . . extenuating circumstances aside. . . being in a cult wouldn't matter to a judge.
There are many, many, many justified prosecutions regarding TWI just awaiting there day in court.
I would hate to see something innocently said here. . . by good parents. .. . . twisted and used.
Maybe a part of understanding why people saw this and didn't do something is that TWI "taught" that it was not abuse. By "taught", I am referring to a scope that goes beyond SNS tapes, and formal settings. In fact, I think it is fairly clear from the various threads here that it was considered vital and necessary. People were expected to treat their kids this way or else be thought of as spiritual weaklings.
And this was done so that some two bit, narcissistic cult leader could get a new Harley or other "toy" any time his heart desired. "Yeah, beat your kids. What do I care?---- as long as I can fill my stable with classic cars and motorcycles, ill gotten at your expense".
thank you all for having the courage to get involved in this discussion. wordwolf i have read those and other threads several times and was going to link to them but couldn't quite figure it so i hoped you'd pop in and do just what you did, so thank you.
something i didn't think i had to write any sort of disclaimer about because it's been so discussed here is that i am NOT asking anybody to put themselves in a position of legal jeopary but i assumed people knew enough not to do that here already. there's no need to "admit" anything and that's NOT what i was looking for and didn't even think about it until somebody else did and said something. i'm NOT here to accuse and point fingers and that's NOT why i started this discussion. what i want to know for my own understanding and perspective is how people handled things, how people thought about their own or other people's children who "misbehaved" or "disobeyed", and t-bone's post is a perfect example of that type of discussion.
if you are worried about litigation against you by what you write here, then most certainly DO NOT write anything because if you're worried about litigation then you must have something to worry about. and if you didn't see or do anything great! i really don't want to hear about it on this discussion though because i've heard about it for too long already. my own mother says she didn't see or do anything abusive. denial is a form of abuse.
Maybe a part of understanding why people saw this and didn't do something is that TWI "taught" that it was not abuse. By "taught", I am referring to a scope that goes beyond SNS tapes, and formal settings. In fact, I think it is fairly clear from the various threads here that it was considered vital and necessary. People were expected to treat their kids this way or else be thought of as spiritual weaklings.
this is a perfect description of "institutionalized".
if you are worried about litigation against you by what you write here, then most certainly DO NOT write anything because if you're worried about litigation then you must have something to worry about. and if you didn't see or do anything great! i really don't want to hear about it on this discussion though because i've heard about it for too long already. my own mother says she didn't see or do anything abusive. denial is a form of abuse.
I read those other threads. People openly admitting to watching children be beaten with blood running down their legs. 45 minutes of abusing a toddler?????? The XXXX didn't prevent me from knowing exactly who did it. Verbal assualts, physical attacks. . . molestation. This is CRIMINAL. Not to mention standing by and watching, without reporting or stepping in. . . being highly IMMORAL.
There is a they/we disconnect on this site I do not understand. They did it. . . we watched?
The nameless, faceless "they" we always discuss. . . . was we. . . we were part of the whole.
If you watched and did nothing. . . how does being in a cult exonerate you from culpibility? It doesn't and some of the stuff I read is criminal.
I understand what was taught and why people stood by. . . I don't condone it. . . but I understand it. However, that is what a court calls extenuating circumstances. Wouldn't mean Jack. . . .
Don't worry brainfixed, I am done with this thread.
brainfixed your post has a lot of exactly what was wrong. Actually so many parts of TWI are exactly that.: obedience is more important than health and well being.
The problem with this distortion is that it communicates that God is like a strict authoritarian entity, who you absolutely obey without question. In my opinion and experience God is a lot more involved with reaching out to me where I'm at.
The problem with this distortion is that it communicates that God is like a strict authoritarian entity, who you absolutely obey without question.
Interesting you should mention this. This very concept was promoted for adults as well as children. The idea was that when God said jump, you were to jump without question. And since the idea of leaders speaking by "revelation" was a staple of the TWI mental diet, when a 'leader" gave you an order, you were to follow it without question because that "leader" might have some life or death insight on the situation. I remember this happening in the mid 1970's, when a guy in the Corps left HQ grounds despite being told not to. If I remember correctly, he went into town with another guy. He was in a terrible auto accident and died as a result. Wierwille used the incident to condemn people for disobedience and really played up the obedience angle. This was a far-reaching lesson that went out into the areas that weren't directly connected to HQ.
For the sake of illustrating that this was an official stance of "WayWorld" and not isolated by any means , I offer this from page 10 of the Advanced Class syllabus.
Keys To Walking By The Spirit
10. Inspired action and inspired utterance may be essential.
11. Do not be deceived by the five senses.
12. Do not argue with God.
15. Watch and be ready. Revelation may come at the most likely or unlikely places and times.
Of course, each of these directives has accompanying scripture that supposedly validates it as "The Word of God".
So, you see, this subject of child abuse is really an extension of a large scale problem that was deeply woven into the mindset of the typical Way "believer".
this discussion is inspired by a discussion in the "decaffeinated" forum, and this discussion is about institutionalized child abuse and what people did or did not do, or did or did not recognize as abuse, and how it all changed me and the other children around me.
first a partial list of things the way international institutionalized that were "tools" of abuse all too often:
Ephesians 6:1
that damned wooden spoon.
all adults having absolute authority over all children.
untrained and unchecked children's fellowship leaders.
impossible expectations of parents and children.
typical childhood behaviors and illnesses and acting out equated to "devil spirits".
blame.
shame.
fear.
assuming children are most often used as tools by "the old bird" to use against "men and women of god".
second a partial list of behaviors children show when abused*:
temper tantrums with angry-sounding crying and kicking hands and feet and possibly even trying to strike out. (begins 12-18 months)
kicking and hitting and biting others and possibly self-injuring like banging the head. (toddlers)
aggressive or abusive actions toward other children and animals and adults, or even themselves and are usually a more serious and longer lasting form of acting out. (older toddlers and pre-schoolers)
**this is not the only place information can be obtained.
Wierwille and co. had NO ANSWERS on proper child-rearing.......ie twi was not even in the ballpark when it came to walking in love, walking in light or walking circumspectly.
Thankfully, I was never in the Family Corps.......just regular corps. Don't think I ever would have ever absorbed the indoctrination of having *some other parent* hit my kid with a wooden spoon over and over again. All those corps coordinators...........were blinded by wierwille's delusional doctrines.
As the younger generation reaches adulthood...........the twisted doctrines of twi come into full view.
Also, there are people from The Corps and FLO who can tell you about first hand experiences with middle of the night rousting that were designed to instill a sense of unwavering loyalty and obedience to "leadership". This was essentially the same kind of blind obedience that was being hammered into these kids under the guise of learning to obey God without questioning.
It was bad enough that this was done to us as adults. Now think how utterly traumatic this must have been for the kids.
Not quite on topic, but the reason the abuse happened, why they were so "strict" with children, is because they focused on Eph 6:1-3 and divorced it from 6:4:
Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.
Fathers, do not irritate and provoke your children to anger [do not exasperate them to resentment]; but rear them [tenderly] in the training and discipline and the counsel and admonition of the Lord.
While TWI might have said they were fulfilling 6:4b ("training and discipline") they forgot / ignored / glossed over the "don't exasperate" part and Amp notes the rearing of children is to be done "tenderly".
But hey. If you stick with KJV what you get is:
And, ye fathers, provoke not your chidlren to wrath: bu bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
And the only note I have among my many pencilled Bible notes is that "nurture" means "discipline".
No. Nurture is a WHOLE LOT MORE than just discipline. It's carefully providing for all that the nurtured one needs to maximise growth: the right growing conditions, right environment, right food, right handling. Check any decent dictionary.
One time at a ROA, I watched for a few minutes an @12 year old girl smacking an @6 year old girl. There were people everywhere but this was happening. The twelve year old would smack the six year old, point, and scold "OBEY!". The younger would cry out, the older smacked again "OBEY!"
rinse and repeat
________________________________
another instance at an ROA, my younger brother had a disagreement with my father on the shuttle. When the shuttle stopped it seemed like everyone on the shuttle got up to stop and quote "Eph 6:1" to my brother.
When I was in, I never saw it but that is because of when I was in and where I was at.
After reading some of the posts here and some of the information on the current way TWI is run I do believe it began happening on a regular basis as time went on.
I do want to tell a bit about how it was in the early 80's because that is when I was in and I believe it relates to how everything played out and to give you a kind of time line of events at least until I left so you can understand how entrenched the teaching was by the time you came into the picture Brainy you and Bolshie and anyone else who was a kid growing up in TWI.
I ran a childrens fellowship in our twig. The kids and I had a great time. I NEVER used a woden spoon or bullied the kids in any way... I know for sure because I came from an abusive home so It is a no brainer for me... you do not do that stuff... That being said.. this is what I did in my childrens fellowship with the children in my care.. We sang songs we prayed (a short quick prayer... you know thank you for this day than you for my mommy daddy sister brothers. I love you God) They were little kids.
We played games Duck Duck Goose and such.
This is the model of what Childrens fellowship was supposed to be like when I was in TWI... The wooden spoon teaching was new on the scene not just to TWI but to most Christian groups.. It was taught as a method to handle kids but you were not to use the spoon unless dire circumstances occured it was supposed to be a tap on the bottom not a bludgeoning. There is an actual book that was recommended. Again remember this was when it first became a part of TWI. And at that time parents were only in charge of their own kids.. (Remember I was out west and as far from HQ as you could probably get) There was no training for CF but they did have some info on age appropriate stuff for the kids at that time and really the people who usually ran CF at that time had kids.. I was the only non parent doing it.. CF in our area. Also Spanking was still an accepted discipline at that time. Also I want to add that I heard when I was at ROA of a couple who was Corp and who was taking the Wooden spoon to a more agressive level but at that time they were the only ones I heard of doing this.
There was a couple at Headquarters that was in charge of childrens fellowships.. they were actually at least from afar very good and maybe some one else will remember who they are.
They were loving and smart and they taught patience and a firm but not aggressive hand with children.
Was I trained .. no but at that time twig was not as intrusive in your life like it is now.. WE held twig once a week. unless a class was going on. We went to occasional limb functions or Area functions.
You pretty much lived your life without interference from anyone. Unless you were in the Corps or working at HQ.
You would never see people beating their kids with the spoon .. I am not saying it didn't happen because there is always a certain percentage of abusers out there. in the population no matter their religion or economic status.
IT happens.. But what I am saying is at first I believe for the most part the wooden spoon thing was handled correctly.
That was soon to start changing
and this is of course my perception of it.. but it is what I saw and heard.
Around 1982 there was a teaching or a thought process but I remember it as a teaching on either a SNS or a Corp tape.
It was about how you shouldn't buy objects made in other countries as that object would have a devil spirit attached to it and you were bringing it into your home.
That was the first time I had heard of it.. and From the get go I thought it was stupid but there it was.. keep in mind this was in 82. At that time they were not teaching that children were a vehicle to the devil or devil spirits but I see from other posts on here that that teaching became rampant.
Now We left in early 83 so from there I suspect it was only a matter of time before things devolved to what they are today... one of the things that I believe pushed things over into the really abusive range was the degree of control you were expected to exert on your child.
Every one was supposed to be perfect. Your child was supposed to hop to at your very breathed word. This was also starting to be conveyed to the general population of TWI. Now I have two kids grown and quite wonderful who are in their 20's and I can tell you for a fact that no kid ever hops too it at your first word as a parent.
And why would you want them too.. Oh yeah it is nice that they obey but really I wanted my kids to grow up confident enough to question when something did not make sense or felt like it was dangerous to them.
I suspect the over the top expectations were conveyed to Corps who then conveyed to their twigs and such as they went out on the field.
Anyway that is what it was like where I was..
Was it wrong? Yes horribly wrong.and I am sad to see how many children were abused and at the same time relieved that my spouse and I left before our kids were born.
Brainy don't expect your Mom to recognize the pain you endured... my Mom didn't until right before she died and I am not too sure she ever really understood how horrible the life I had to endure was. And that was abuse at the hand of my Alcoholic step dad who then convinced my mother everything I said was a lie... even though she saw it before her very eyes and even though there was much more tangible evidence that surfaced later on... Usually the person perpetrating the abuse or allowing it to happen doesn't see it rationally.
Now add to that mix the fact you are being taught that this is the proper way to raise your kids and you are told that God says that you should be handling your kids in this manner.
Add to that the pressure to be perfect and have perfect kids and ramp it up with a fear that if your kid misbehaves or you don't comply with this method you will get chastised or worse in front of your friends and you have a recipe for disaster on a grand scale.
my ex and I lived in a pretty isolated area when I had my children. I was under pretty tight control and went along with too much out of fear. the discipline of children didn't extend to beatings, but only to controlling pretty much every thought and action, with the wooden spoon, hand-slapping, ear-flicking and extended lectures including telling a child what they were thinking.
I never agreed with telling a hurt or angry child to shut up and change their mind, or to hit them because they didn't stop crying when you told them to. I always thought comforting and talking was the right way to handle it.
my ex didn't agree. he was a conformist, so he flicked my son on the ear and told him to shut up and change his mind whenever he cried. my ex wouldn't stop, even when I freaked out and screamed at him to stop hitting our son for being hurt. by the time he was 5, my son showed many of the problems listed, including bullying and hitting. over the next few years, he also became an accomplished liar, but my ex also actively coached him to lie.
after our divorce, my ex and I both left twi but things just got worse. my ex did everything he could to hurt me by using my son. then it turned out my son also has a learning disability. what followed was several years of intensive therapy, thousands of dollars in legal fees, lost career and loss of personal property to fight for my son and I'm very happy to say for a kid with a learning disability, he's pretty damned normal today but I had to fight really hard against my own conditioning and my ex to help my son get where he is.
it's still a fight. I anticipate this year's round of legal battles will end up costing close to 15k by the time we're done, but my hope is it will protect my daughter from going through the same toxic games my son has endured.
I think twi was the perfect hide-out for my ex because he had permission to commit cruelty to his wife and children at whim. I feel horribly guilty that I ever let myself get maneuvered into a position where I thought the wooden spoon was a good idea (which I'm told is typical victim's guilt), but glad I had the balls to draw a line to protect my kids and fight for my son when I realized how desperately he needed help.
Brainfixed, I am glad that you are starting to understand. I have tried to explain before why we (the adults) felt trapped, why we allowed others to seize control of our lives, why we submitted and aquiessed to horrible abuse...
Many of us were from broken homes, raising ourselves with little guidance or direction. I was only 17, a kid searching for love, some way to have meaning in my life.
The way comes along promising everything in life and Godliness, how to become more than a conquerer, how to be pleasing to God, a warrior in the spiritual battle...unconditional love, a new father/family that would never abandon you. It was irresistable.
These people molded our perceptions during our late teen early adult years. We were distanced from family and friends, outside media, outside interests...twi became our whole world and existence.
I cannot imagine how helpless and trapped you children must have felt. I know that it sounds unbelievable, but everything we did, was because we were taught that was what was best for you guys.
We were taught that little ones must learn to obey first thought, or else they couldn`t hear the voice of God. That when you grew up, you wouldn`t suffer from the baggage that we adults carried, all of the wrong teaching, wrong believing, wrong thinking....you guys were going to be superstars, spiritiual athletes that would far surpass your poor damaged folks.
Please don`t be angry, I do remember admiring you children, thinking...my how truly fortunate to be raised in the word by believer parents....Most of us had no idea how awful it was, how wrong to try to make children into obedient little automatons ...when we did feel how desperately wrong things were, we had been so conditioned and taught not to trust our instincts, our feelings, that we submitted...
It was horrible to have your mind protesting, screaming out how desperately wrong what was being required of you...doing it because you were told that was what God expected, to do anything less was to lose God`s protection from yourself and family....You can leave a group, you can disobey a leader, quit a job...but how can you live without God?
So we brokenly complied, silencing the screams of protest fighting for control by fiercely running retemory scriptures through your mind...you numbly carried out your instructions.
No, I wasn`t required to mistreat children, but I had my own situations where I was forced to obey...
Brainfixed, I am truly truly sorry for what you and the other way kids endured....I hope that you guys can one day forgive the adults who supported and promoted this group, for while we might not have seen what you endured, or been an active part of the abuse....or stood by, not understanding....TWI couldn`t have survived without our participation. I am sorry.
I hope that youcan understand that what we did or didn`t do was out of ignorance and fear, not because we desired to be malicious monsters that destroyed.
I have children now, mostly raised outside of twi...I cannot imagine subjecting them to what you poor kiddos endured.
This is kind of embarrasing, but hubby and I didn't go out on a date night for probably six years while our kids were young in TWI. There were only a couple people we would even consider asking to babysit our kids during those years, during an emergency, and those all had young kids, too, and like us were always under scrutiny for our disobedient children.
We never discussed it--but what a red flag. All the people you know, see weekly--and you would never consider having your children alone with them!
I used a wooden spoon, but my kids were never beaten. Still, the standard was perfection, and when we had kids in gradeschool, perfection was a real issue. I had a kid who would get a stomach ache if their math paper wasn't perfect. The perfect or nothing standard took a long time to get over.
We quit using the spoon before we left TWI, and used the school bedtime excuse to keep them away from fellowship most of our last year in TWI. We just didn't have the stomach for having our kids involved by that time.
Funny how we knew something was desparately wrong but weren't sure just what that was.
i'd like to know how people here handled and perceived what was going on with their children or other people's children when acting out behavior happened. i have assumed all of these years that it was the hell everywhere that is was for us, but some discussions here indicate that maybe some of the children grew up not quite so violently changed by their forced involvement in the way international.
. . .
don't know if this is of interest,
I've talked to several people who grew up in twi, from high ranking leadership to rank-and-file chumps, there seems to be a weird pattern.
it seems "kids" my age are a little more ....ed in general than our younger siblings. I think they were "sheltered" cause lcm got booted at a certain point in their life. so even in a family things vary.
once you were too big to physically manipulate the real mental games began. back-up was required in force. when rosie took charge things slowed a little.
it sux cause the younger "kids" can't remember certain things, while the "adults" conveniently have no recollection. that leaves the rest of us downers.
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waysider
I'm not sure what to say except that I am so sorry you kids were subjected to this.
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WordWolf
[From what I've heard around here,
before the big 88/89 split,
your exposure to dysfunctional, dangerous, and harmful childrearing practices depended on
your proximity to Root locales. If you were on grounds in the Family Corps, or HQ, or one of
those places, you were in for it. The worst part about it was the long periods with parents
separated from their children, with an adult untrained in supervising children watching over
them, ready to clobber them with the wooden spoon all adults were expected to carry.
Unless you were the child of a bigwig. Then, instead of physical abuse, you got abuse by
abandonment and lack of boundaries. You could get away with almost anything- and often did.
I'm not sure who was worse off, of the 2 categories of abused children.
AFTER the 88/89 split,
twi was in a sort of "trickle-down" mode, and things that used to be reserved for private use
at the Root locales became standard everywhere, including abusing children by clobbering them
if they didn't conform to your whims. Then again, the parents who actually did this were abused
by twi first-otherwise they wouldn't have agreed to commit battery on their children.
So, the abuse trickled down....]
[That's a safe approach. A few posters in the history of the GSC have shown themselves to be
masters at asking those sorts of questions. Most of them aren't posting now, however, so this
caution MIGHT not be needed.]
[That's always good to add, I think. :)
I think I'll look for a few links to previous discussions in case they were missed.
(Although I probably linked them recently already-but I may be wrong.]
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T-Bone
I was in Family Corps 11 [as a parent] and so would strongly agree with Word Wolf's points. Our son was in the Mini Corps and after we left TWI he developed a HUGE rebellious streak in him a mile wide!...hmmmm...I wonder if the Nazi-Parenting skills we all mimicked while in residence had anything to do with that
...damn ya know it does!!!!! Some may say payback is hell - but I love him for it and it's one of the great qualities I admire in my son - he is the man I should have been in TWI...don't know how long I'd have lasted before they gave me the boot though 
.
Seriously though...it's just awful what child rearing practices TWI promoted...my heart goes out to the kids impacted by this regime.
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WordWolf
No wonder I didn't have a clear memory of linking them recently.
Someone else named the threads, I just slapped the links in place.
Hunt Close!
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4232
(by Jerome B. Robinson)
Child Abuse in twi.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4233
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geisha779
I too am sorry for what you had to endure brainfixed. It sounds like there are many issues you are dealing with. I only wish you health, recovery, and a happy life. I never saw anyone hurt their children. . . even the limb leaders I was close to. That is NOT to say it didn't happen. I believe it did. I just never witnessed anything like what you have laid forth.
Here are some things to be made aware of though. . . given the discussion.
Any parent who knows that another person is abusing his/her child and takes no action to stop the abuse is subject to criminal prosecution.
There are extensions or eliminations of time limitations for charging criminal offenses related to child victims.
Meaning, if you subjected your child to abusive situations and did not protect or remove them for their saftey. . . .you can be prosecuted years later.
Child abuse is a criminal act. To admit that you subjected your child to it or that you witnessed it and did not report it or remove them. . . is technically admitting to a criminal act.
If you have ever sat in a courtroom and watched a prosecutor, like a dog with a bone, make a case. . . extenuating circumstances aside. . . being in a cult wouldn't matter to a judge.
There are many, many, many justified prosecutions regarding TWI just awaiting there day in court.
I would hate to see something innocently said here. . . by good parents. .. . . twisted and used.
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waysider
Maybe a part of understanding why people saw this and didn't do something is that TWI "taught" that it was not abuse. By "taught", I am referring to a scope that goes beyond SNS tapes, and formal settings. In fact, I think it is fairly clear from the various threads here that it was considered vital and necessary. People were expected to treat their kids this way or else be thought of as spiritual weaklings.
And this was done so that some two bit, narcissistic cult leader could get a new Harley or other "toy" any time his heart desired. "Yeah, beat your kids. What do I care?---- as long as I can fill my stable with classic cars and motorcycles, ill gotten at your expense".
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brainfixed
thank you all for having the courage to get involved in this discussion. wordwolf i have read those and other threads several times and was going to link to them but couldn't quite figure it so i hoped you'd pop in and do just what you did, so thank you.
something i didn't think i had to write any sort of disclaimer about because it's been so discussed here is that i am NOT asking anybody to put themselves in a position of legal jeopary but i assumed people knew enough not to do that here already. there's no need to "admit" anything and that's NOT what i was looking for and didn't even think about it until somebody else did and said something. i'm NOT here to accuse and point fingers and that's NOT why i started this discussion. what i want to know for my own understanding and perspective is how people handled things, how people thought about their own or other people's children who "misbehaved" or "disobeyed", and t-bone's post is a perfect example of that type of discussion.
if you are worried about litigation against you by what you write here, then most certainly DO NOT write anything because if you're worried about litigation then you must have something to worry about. and if you didn't see or do anything great! i really don't want to hear about it on this discussion though because i've heard about it for too long already. my own mother says she didn't see or do anything abusive. denial is a form of abuse.
this is a perfect description of "institutionalized".
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geisha779
I read those other threads. People openly admitting to watching children be beaten with blood running down their legs. 45 minutes of abusing a toddler?????? The XXXX didn't prevent me from knowing exactly who did it. Verbal assualts, physical attacks. . . molestation. This is CRIMINAL. Not to mention standing by and watching, without reporting or stepping in. . . being highly IMMORAL.
There is a they/we disconnect on this site I do not understand. They did it. . . we watched?
The nameless, faceless "they" we always discuss. . . . was we. . . we were part of the whole.
If you watched and did nothing. . . how does being in a cult exonerate you from culpibility? It doesn't and some of the stuff I read is criminal.
I understand what was taught and why people stood by. . . I don't condone it. . . but I understand it. However, that is what a court calls extenuating circumstances. Wouldn't mean Jack. . . .
Don't worry brainfixed, I am done with this thread.
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chockfull
brainfixed your post has a lot of exactly what was wrong. Actually so many parts of TWI are exactly that.: obedience is more important than health and well being.
The problem with this distortion is that it communicates that God is like a strict authoritarian entity, who you absolutely obey without question. In my opinion and experience God is a lot more involved with reaching out to me where I'm at.
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waysider
Interesting you should mention this. This very concept was promoted for adults as well as children. The idea was that when God said jump, you were to jump without question. And since the idea of leaders speaking by "revelation" was a staple of the TWI mental diet, when a 'leader" gave you an order, you were to follow it without question because that "leader" might have some life or death insight on the situation. I remember this happening in the mid 1970's, when a guy in the Corps left HQ grounds despite being told not to. If I remember correctly, he went into town with another guy. He was in a terrible auto accident and died as a result. Wierwille used the incident to condemn people for disobedience and really played up the obedience angle. This was a far-reaching lesson that went out into the areas that weren't directly connected to HQ.
For the sake of illustrating that this was an official stance of "WayWorld" and not isolated by any means , I offer this from page 10 of the Advanced Class syllabus.
Keys To Walking By The Spirit
10. Inspired action and inspired utterance may be essential.
11. Do not be deceived by the five senses.
12. Do not argue with God.
15. Watch and be ready. Revelation may come at the most likely or unlikely places and times.
Of course, each of these directives has accompanying scripture that supposedly validates it as "The Word of God".
So, you see, this subject of child abuse is really an extension of a large scale problem that was deeply woven into the mindset of the typical Way "believer".
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skyrider
Wierwille and co. had NO ANSWERS on proper child-rearing.......ie twi was not even in the ballpark when it came to walking in love, walking in light or walking circumspectly.
Thankfully, I was never in the Family Corps.......just regular corps. Don't think I ever would have ever absorbed the indoctrination of having *some other parent* hit my kid with a wooden spoon over and over again. All those corps coordinators...........were blinded by wierwille's delusional doctrines.
As the younger generation reaches adulthood...........the twisted doctrines of twi come into full view.
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waysider
Also, there are people from The Corps and FLO who can tell you about first hand experiences with middle of the night rousting that were designed to instill a sense of unwavering loyalty and obedience to "leadership". This was essentially the same kind of blind obedience that was being hammered into these kids under the guise of learning to obey God without questioning.
It was bad enough that this was done to us as adults. Now think how utterly traumatic this must have been for the kids.
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Twinky
Not quite on topic, but the reason the abuse happened, why they were so "strict" with children, is because they focused on Eph 6:1-3 and divorced it from 6:4:
While TWI might have said they were fulfilling 6:4b ("training and discipline") they forgot / ignored / glossed over the "don't exasperate" part and Amp notes the rearing of children is to be done "tenderly".
But hey. If you stick with KJV what you get is:
And the only note I have among my many pencilled Bible notes is that "nurture" means "discipline".
No. Nurture is a WHOLE LOT MORE than just discipline. It's carefully providing for all that the nurtured one needs to maximise growth: the right growing conditions, right environment, right food, right handling. Check any decent dictionary.
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Bolshevik
One time at a ROA, I watched for a few minutes an @12 year old girl smacking an @6 year old girl. There were people everywhere but this was happening. The twelve year old would smack the six year old, point, and scold "OBEY!". The younger would cry out, the older smacked again "OBEY!"
rinse and repeat
________________________________
another instance at an ROA, my younger brother had a disagreement with my father on the shuttle. When the shuttle stopped it seemed like everyone on the shuttle got up to stop and quote "Eph 6:1" to my brother.
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leafytwiglet
I think Wordwolf Hit it exactly right.
When I was in, I never saw it but that is because of when I was in and where I was at.
After reading some of the posts here and some of the information on the current way TWI is run I do believe it began happening on a regular basis as time went on.
I do want to tell a bit about how it was in the early 80's because that is when I was in and I believe it relates to how everything played out and to give you a kind of time line of events at least until I left so you can understand how entrenched the teaching was by the time you came into the picture Brainy you and Bolshie and anyone else who was a kid growing up in TWI.
I ran a childrens fellowship in our twig. The kids and I had a great time. I NEVER used a woden spoon or bullied the kids in any way... I know for sure because I came from an abusive home so It is a no brainer for me... you do not do that stuff... That being said.. this is what I did in my childrens fellowship with the children in my care.. We sang songs we prayed (a short quick prayer... you know thank you for this day than you for my mommy daddy sister brothers. I love you God) They were little kids.
We played games Duck Duck Goose and such.
This is the model of what Childrens fellowship was supposed to be like when I was in TWI... The wooden spoon teaching was new on the scene not just to TWI but to most Christian groups.. It was taught as a method to handle kids but you were not to use the spoon unless dire circumstances occured it was supposed to be a tap on the bottom not a bludgeoning. There is an actual book that was recommended. Again remember this was when it first became a part of TWI. And at that time parents were only in charge of their own kids.. (Remember I was out west and as far from HQ as you could probably get) There was no training for CF but they did have some info on age appropriate stuff for the kids at that time and really the people who usually ran CF at that time had kids.. I was the only non parent doing it.. CF in our area. Also Spanking was still an accepted discipline at that time. Also I want to add that I heard when I was at ROA of a couple who was Corp and who was taking the Wooden spoon to a more agressive level but at that time they were the only ones I heard of doing this.
There was a couple at Headquarters that was in charge of childrens fellowships.. they were actually at least from afar very good and maybe some one else will remember who they are.
They were loving and smart and they taught patience and a firm but not aggressive hand with children.
Was I trained .. no but at that time twig was not as intrusive in your life like it is now.. WE held twig once a week. unless a class was going on. We went to occasional limb functions or Area functions.
You pretty much lived your life without interference from anyone. Unless you were in the Corps or working at HQ.
You would never see people beating their kids with the spoon .. I am not saying it didn't happen because there is always a certain percentage of abusers out there. in the population no matter their religion or economic status.
IT happens.. But what I am saying is at first I believe for the most part the wooden spoon thing was handled correctly.
That was soon to start changing
and this is of course my perception of it.. but it is what I saw and heard.
Around 1982 there was a teaching or a thought process but I remember it as a teaching on either a SNS or a Corp tape.
It was about how you shouldn't buy objects made in other countries as that object would have a devil spirit attached to it and you were bringing it into your home.
That was the first time I had heard of it.. and From the get go I thought it was stupid but there it was.. keep in mind this was in 82. At that time they were not teaching that children were a vehicle to the devil or devil spirits but I see from other posts on here that that teaching became rampant.
Now We left in early 83 so from there I suspect it was only a matter of time before things devolved to what they are today... one of the things that I believe pushed things over into the really abusive range was the degree of control you were expected to exert on your child.
Every one was supposed to be perfect. Your child was supposed to hop to at your very breathed word. This was also starting to be conveyed to the general population of TWI. Now I have two kids grown and quite wonderful who are in their 20's and I can tell you for a fact that no kid ever hops too it at your first word as a parent.
And why would you want them too.. Oh yeah it is nice that they obey but really I wanted my kids to grow up confident enough to question when something did not make sense or felt like it was dangerous to them.
I suspect the over the top expectations were conveyed to Corps who then conveyed to their twigs and such as they went out on the field.
Anyway that is what it was like where I was..
Was it wrong? Yes horribly wrong.and I am sad to see how many children were abused and at the same time relieved that my spouse and I left before our kids were born.
Brainy don't expect your Mom to recognize the pain you endured... my Mom didn't until right before she died and I am not too sure she ever really understood how horrible the life I had to endure was. And that was abuse at the hand of my Alcoholic step dad who then convinced my mother everything I said was a lie... even though she saw it before her very eyes and even though there was much more tangible evidence that surfaced later on... Usually the person perpetrating the abuse or allowing it to happen doesn't see it rationally.
Now add to that mix the fact you are being taught that this is the proper way to raise your kids and you are told that God says that you should be handling your kids in this manner.
Add to that the pressure to be perfect and have perfect kids and ramp it up with a fear that if your kid misbehaves or you don't comply with this method you will get chastised or worse in front of your friends and you have a recipe for disaster on a grand scale.
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potato
my ex and I lived in a pretty isolated area when I had my children. I was under pretty tight control and went along with too much out of fear. the discipline of children didn't extend to beatings, but only to controlling pretty much every thought and action, with the wooden spoon, hand-slapping, ear-flicking and extended lectures including telling a child what they were thinking.
I never agreed with telling a hurt or angry child to shut up and change their mind, or to hit them because they didn't stop crying when you told them to. I always thought comforting and talking was the right way to handle it.
my ex didn't agree. he was a conformist, so he flicked my son on the ear and told him to shut up and change his mind whenever he cried. my ex wouldn't stop, even when I freaked out and screamed at him to stop hitting our son for being hurt. by the time he was 5, my son showed many of the problems listed, including bullying and hitting. over the next few years, he also became an accomplished liar, but my ex also actively coached him to lie.
after our divorce, my ex and I both left twi but things just got worse. my ex did everything he could to hurt me by using my son. then it turned out my son also has a learning disability. what followed was several years of intensive therapy, thousands of dollars in legal fees, lost career and loss of personal property to fight for my son and I'm very happy to say for a kid with a learning disability, he's pretty damned normal today but I had to fight really hard against my own conditioning and my ex to help my son get where he is.
it's still a fight. I anticipate this year's round of legal battles will end up costing close to 15k by the time we're done, but my hope is it will protect my daughter from going through the same toxic games my son has endured.
I think twi was the perfect hide-out for my ex because he had permission to commit cruelty to his wife and children at whim. I feel horribly guilty that I ever let myself get maneuvered into a position where I thought the wooden spoon was a good idea (which I'm told is typical victim's guilt), but glad I had the balls to draw a line to protect my kids and fight for my son when I realized how desperately he needed help.
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excathedra
i actually don't know what to say in response to such pain
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excathedra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vjwIDelIWg...feature=related
children deserve to sing this to their parents......
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waysider
Parents deserve to sing this to their children.
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brainfixed
i'm beginning to understand that the adults sometimes felt just as trapped and helpless as us kids.
great songs. thanks!
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rascal
Brainfixed, I am glad that you are starting to understand. I have tried to explain before why we (the adults) felt trapped, why we allowed others to seize control of our lives, why we submitted and aquiessed to horrible abuse...
Many of us were from broken homes, raising ourselves with little guidance or direction. I was only 17, a kid searching for love, some way to have meaning in my life.
The way comes along promising everything in life and Godliness, how to become more than a conquerer, how to be pleasing to God, a warrior in the spiritual battle...unconditional love, a new father/family that would never abandon you. It was irresistable.
These people molded our perceptions during our late teen early adult years. We were distanced from family and friends, outside media, outside interests...twi became our whole world and existence.
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rascal
I cannot imagine how helpless and trapped you children must have felt. I know that it sounds unbelievable, but everything we did, was because we were taught that was what was best for you guys.
We were taught that little ones must learn to obey first thought, or else they couldn`t hear the voice of God. That when you grew up, you wouldn`t suffer from the baggage that we adults carried, all of the wrong teaching, wrong believing, wrong thinking....you guys were going to be superstars, spiritiual athletes that would far surpass your poor damaged folks.
Please don`t be angry, I do remember admiring you children, thinking...my how truly fortunate to be raised in the word by believer parents....Most of us had no idea how awful it was, how wrong to try to make children into obedient little automatons ...when we did feel how desperately wrong things were, we had been so conditioned and taught not to trust our instincts, our feelings, that we submitted...
It was horrible to have your mind protesting, screaming out how desperately wrong what was being required of you...doing it because you were told that was what God expected, to do anything less was to lose God`s protection from yourself and family....You can leave a group, you can disobey a leader, quit a job...but how can you live without God?
So we brokenly complied, silencing the screams of protest fighting for control by fiercely running retemory scriptures through your mind...you numbly carried out your instructions.
No, I wasn`t required to mistreat children, but I had my own situations where I was forced to obey...
Brainfixed, I am truly truly sorry for what you and the other way kids endured....I hope that you guys can one day forgive the adults who supported and promoted this group, for while we might not have seen what you endured, or been an active part of the abuse....or stood by, not understanding....TWI couldn`t have survived without our participation. I am sorry.
I hope that youcan understand that what we did or didn`t do was out of ignorance and fear, not because we desired to be malicious monsters that destroyed.
I have children now, mostly raised outside of twi...I cannot imagine subjecting them to what you poor kiddos endured.
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Bramble
This is kind of embarrasing, but hubby and I didn't go out on a date night for probably six years while our kids were young in TWI. There were only a couple people we would even consider asking to babysit our kids during those years, during an emergency, and those all had young kids, too, and like us were always under scrutiny for our disobedient children.
We never discussed it--but what a red flag. All the people you know, see weekly--and you would never consider having your children alone with them!
I used a wooden spoon, but my kids were never beaten. Still, the standard was perfection, and when we had kids in gradeschool, perfection was a real issue. I had a kid who would get a stomach ache if their math paper wasn't perfect. The perfect or nothing standard took a long time to get over.
We quit using the spoon before we left TWI, and used the school bedtime excuse to keep them away from fellowship most of our last year in TWI. We just didn't have the stomach for having our kids involved by that time.
Funny how we knew something was desparately wrong but weren't sure just what that was.
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Bolshevik
don't know if this is of interest,
I've talked to several people who grew up in twi, from high ranking leadership to rank-and-file chumps, there seems to be a weird pattern.
it seems "kids" my age are a little more ....ed in general than our younger siblings. I think they were "sheltered" cause lcm got booted at a certain point in their life. so even in a family things vary.
once you were too big to physically manipulate the real mental games began. back-up was required in force. when rosie took charge things slowed a little.
it sux cause the younger "kids" can't remember certain things, while the "adults" conveniently have no recollection. that leaves the rest of us downers.
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