WW and Ham and the rest have made some excellent points.
I think it was about control. When control-freaks start to loose domination, they grasp at anything that can prove (at least to themselves) that they still have control. They used our fear of loss of "the family of God" against us, as well as our pride (who wants to admit that the ministry was a major life mistake, when we spent our twenties defending it to our natural families?) The loyalty letters, which demanded people to choose between Craig and Chris, were a symptom of this. Another was the purging of gays, which was the only means of controlling them; genetics can't be "healed," so we'd better not have them around. Women getting to be too good at what they do? Stop ordaining them. Pull some "present truth" out of your ear and watch the people dance to your tune. Diminishing numbers of people, to be sure, but the more they see others getting kicked out, the harder they dance to try to stay in. Control is achieved.
Control must be very reassuring to a leader whose organization is imploding.
Thankfully many ultimately had the balls to be purged.
I'm not sure where the balls come in on that. Leaving because someone made you? How many years did it take some of you to figure out that TWI did you a favor when it told you to leave?
The balls part occurred when someone had the good sense to leave, preferably before plunking down money to take a class. But I really have to admire the guy who refused - yes refused to SIT at the 13th session of the PFAL class I went through. Now that took balls.
Personally, I think they actually thought their MOG status, and "Wer're the ONLY way" status would be enough to force people into submission, so they could have these people do anything they wanted. And if anyone had any resistance to what they wanted (and they felt they were weak [incapable of starting an uprising with others]) then they were fair game.
I agree. When you buy into the MOG myth, you naturally assume that others are buying into it too, or else they're rebellious or possessed or weak or what-have-you.
I didn't want to take off on a tangent in the "Purges" thread, but something Word Wolf posted struck a chord:
"Witnessing" was to be focused on people who had "all their teeth" and their own cars and so
on- effectively, people who had no needs, leaving only people who could be USED by twi and
not be expected to need things in return. So, new arrivals were being SCREENED before they
joined- which meant new arrivals arrived in MUCH smaller numbers.
I distinctly remember my BC mentioning to me at my last ROA (1996?) that "we weren't witnessing to nerds anymore." We should be trying to bring in the more well-to-do of the local populace. I asked if we weren't trying to help people anymore. I don't remember his fumbled answer, but it was something on the order of "rich people need the Word, too."
When did this become the official doctrine for witnessing?
George
Actually, I think it is a valid point here..
purges.. corporate restructuring of sorts with sycophants unremovable on top, more purges.. and "witness to people only if they have teeth" and such?
makes perfect sense.. it's a regular cycling of people through a vicious system.. and they have to keep the inlet looking as attractive as possible. "no needs in da way.."
I really think all of the "reasons" given were more just excuses.. to put people out who might be weak, *homo*.. or whatever. Just excuses to thin the ranks.. and still try to keep (hopefully.. but not likely in a thousand years) "Hollywood star" types coming in the door..
You only need one of *them*.. or a small handful to really kick off your organization.. in contrast to trying to really help those who have supposed legitimate need..
. Just excuses to thin the ranks.. and still try to keep (hopefully.. but not likely in a thousand years) "Hollywood star" types coming in the door..
You only need one of *them*.. or a small handful to really kick off your organization.. in contrast to trying to really help those who have supposed legitimate need..
they aren't netting celebrities by any means.. the next best trophy? One with a full set of teeth..
the concept that keeps coming back to me: "that da dumb ministry not be blamed.." for ANYTHING. Tooth loss of course, was probably highest on the list..
I think they just pledged themselves.. to an evil organization..
but I do remember (when I was 11 or 12) that PFAL was booooooorrrrrrinngg. Nor did it make sense.
My first PFAL class was at Rome City at the age of 12. I concure. Boring and after being in TWI for 7 years already I had heard and read it all several times before.
So... one session the guy running the class left the room for a while and a friend on mine got up and fast forwarded the VCR through about 25 minutes of the class. No one thought about the fact that they timed the class and would notice if it ended early. The guy did notice and gave us all a stern talking too but no one ratted out my friend.
My first PFAL class was at Rome City at the age of 12. I concure. Boring and after being in TWI for 7 years already I had heard and read it all several times before.
So... one session the guy running the class left the room for a while and a friend on mine got up and fast forwarded the VCR through about 25 minutes of the class. No one thought about the fact that they timed the class and would notice if it ended early. The guy did notice and gave us all a stern talking too but no one ratted out my friend.
Good times.
Gotta be sneakier my friend - way back in the day Joe Coldter introduced these tape players that skipped blank areas on the tape effectively speeding up the tape. However you could get it running so fast that the tape sounded like Alvin the chipmunk - pretty unintelligible - but HEY SANCTIONED BY THE ALMIGHTY HQ. So rather than listening to the interminably boring SNS tapes and the lunatic ranting corps tapes we just sped the thing up to top end - listened to an hour of SNS in 15 minutes or so - fulfilled our "requirements" then went and had some refreshments.
I think it is kind of amusing that they purged out this group, that group, every weakness they could find group, then one day the limb coords or other corps woke up to find they didn't have enough fellowships in the area to be called a limb/branch/poobah. ABS was way down. OOPS. Then it was "Whoa, be nice, be kind. I'm gonna lose my JOB!"
And funny how God didn't reward the perfect pure household with scads of new believers to join them in the Household of the Prevaling Word.
And funny how God didn't reward the perfect pure household with scads of new believers to join them in the Household of the Prevaling Word.
Excellent point!! Wasn't that the whole "purpose" of the purges? To clean out the 'unbelievers' so the Word could "really" move???? Hmmm... haven't seen that happen yet, lol. Of course, Craiggers covered his backside on that by saying that "the Word really moving didn't necessarily mean bigger numbers". So I guess the point became: whoever is left in twi after everyone else is gone gets to feel REALLY super specially spiritual... all five of them.
The whole 'Confronting the world with the word' type of witnessing didn't draw in the noobs, either.
There just weren't scads of people looking to perfect their lives, who would respond with thankfulness to our sharp eyes for seeing any type of imperfection!
People don't really give a $h!+ if absolute strangers take them to task about the lifestyle they are living. In fact, they think the stranger is a bizarre idiot busy body.
And what's sad, at one time the TWI folk may have had actual social skills--but they traded them in for the "Present truth."
. . . . . In other words, some of the men most FEARFUL of gays are afraid of their own
homosexual impulses, attractions and feelings. Me, I think it would have been obvious in other ways- like, say, if he began showing interest in dance, and wearing shiny outfits and displaying rainbow insignias.
. . . he was STUPID ENOUGH to be interested in threesomes, and mentioned it in some form to his wife. . . . .
So, he starts mentioning more things any devout Christian leader would avoid.
This opens the door for other things he wasn't hoping for-
like the other 2/3 of a threesome assembling, but not inviting him to make up the last 1/3.
I just had to highlight this. . . beyond chuckle worthy and right into laughing out loud.
LCM's comments . . . . in the links you provided. . . . reveal a very twisted perception of women. . .an unstable individual . . . and someone who took his own perversions and applied them to biblical teachings.
There is quite a paper awaiting some Psych student.
My personal favorite. . . the devil was trying to take down CAMPAIGN REFORM!!
which all makes me wonder.. who's he sleeping with tonight? An over the hill.. well past balding.. basically unskilled, unexciting has been of a dufas..
But those who had the brains or real ambition in the outfit (the women).. stood back and watched him squeeze.. and they let the "ministry" hemorrage people like running water.. didn't they "care"?
they watched as he demanded loyalty, and went through one purging session after another..
I don't think they agreed with him for one moment, on principle.
Personally, I don't think that was QUITE the issue lcm had.
I think he obsessed about homosexuality because he was hoist on his own petard.
He was STUPID ENOUGH to marry a woman whose sole criterion for marriage was "high climber in twi."
He was STUPID ENOUGH to retain a simple jock mentality about things- what he liked, being macho, etc.
IMHO,
he was STUPID ENOUGH to be interested in threesomes, and mentioned it in some form to his wife.
That was part of a "dumb jock" mentality, and viewing his wife as a THING, not a PERSON. She mattered IN RELATION TO HIM.
So, he starts mentioning more things any devout Christian leader would avoid.
This opens the door for other things he wasn't hoping for-
like the other 2/3 of a threesome assembling, but not inviting him to make up the last 1/3.
WordWolf, I think you have very perceptive insight into the inner workings of WHY. Things do not happen in a vacuum regarding people. There is an inner cause for everything. The destruction that manifest within eventually was reflected out. Then the aftermath is left, and people sweep it under the carpet and live on in its wake.
which all makes me wonder.. who's he sleeping with tonight? An over the hill.. well past balding.. basically unskilled, unexciting has been of a dufas..
But those who had the brains or real ambition in the outfit (the women).. stood back and watched him squeeze.. and they let the "ministry" hemorrage people like running water.. didn't they "care"?
they watched as he demanded loyalty, and went through one purging session after another..
I don't think they agreed with him for one moment, on principle.
Oh my. Why did they let him do it? Think about it. . . you make such a great point! Okay, the family is gone. . . LCM is gone. . . there are only a few faithful minions hanging about. . . but, who is left there with ALL the money. . . the property. . . and can to do as they please?
Those two women. . . . who don't really hide their affection for each other. . . are in each other's pockets, and have the freedom and means to do as they please.
They let him purge the place and then finished the job, knocking it down to a manageable size.
Tell me this hasn't been going on for years. It isn't about "biblical research" or "Moving the Word over the world". . . .
Oh my. Why did they let him do it? Think about it. . . you make such a great point! Okay, the family is gone. . . LCM is gone. . . there are only a few faithful minions hanging about. . . but, who is left there with ALL the money. . . the property. . . and can to do as they please?
Those two women. . . . who don't really hide their affection for each other. . . are in each other's pockets, and have the freedom and means to do as they please.
They let him purge the place and then finished the job, knocking it down to a manageable size.
Tell me this hasn't been going on for years. It isn't about "biblical research" or "Moving the Word over the world". . . .
It is about a romance.
Now why does this sound to me like the intro to a trailer for a movie?
Two women ..... can't really hide their affection ...... in each other's pockets .... free to move ......
A forbidden love ...... they let him purge the place ...... now they've finished the job .......
Tell me this hasn't been going on for years .......
Is this really "biblical research"? ....... Is this really "Moving the Word over the world? .........
Excellent analysis WordWolf, what you say here-"He also went into rants that sounded like he was FEARFUL OF WOMEN, and afraid of women being in control of anything affecting him" sounds an awful lot like vpw's relationship with his mother, which set the stage for him to develop into the cruel misogynist he was.
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notinKansasanymore
WW and Ham and the rest have made some excellent points.
I think it was about control. When control-freaks start to loose domination, they grasp at anything that can prove (at least to themselves) that they still have control. They used our fear of loss of "the family of God" against us, as well as our pride (who wants to admit that the ministry was a major life mistake, when we spent our twenties defending it to our natural families?) The loyalty letters, which demanded people to choose between Craig and Chris, were a symptom of this. Another was the purging of gays, which was the only means of controlling them; genetics can't be "healed," so we'd better not have them around. Women getting to be too good at what they do? Stop ordaining them. Pull some "present truth" out of your ear and watch the people dance to your tune. Diminishing numbers of people, to be sure, but the more they see others getting kicked out, the harder they dance to try to stay in. Control is achieved.
Control must be very reassuring to a leader whose organization is imploding.
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Tzaia
I'm not sure where the balls come in on that. Leaving because someone made you? How many years did it take some of you to figure out that TWI did you a favor when it told you to leave?
The balls part occurred when someone had the good sense to leave, preferably before plunking down money to take a class. But I really have to admire the guy who refused - yes refused to SIT at the 13th session of the PFAL class I went through. Now that took balls.
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Bolshevik
I can't remember my first word.
nor can I remember my first SIT.
but I do remember (when I was 11 or 12) that PFAL was booooooorrrrrrinngg. Nor did it make sense.
I SIT at the end. Just like I always had.
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excathedra
what a smart 11-12 year old mwah
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Bolshevik
no, I don't think it took any brain cells to accomplish not understanding anything.
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Oakspear
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Ham
Actually, I think it is a valid point here..
purges.. corporate restructuring of sorts with sycophants unremovable on top, more purges.. and "witness to people only if they have teeth" and such?
makes perfect sense.. it's a regular cycling of people through a vicious system.. and they have to keep the inlet looking as attractive as possible. "no needs in da way.."
I really think all of the "reasons" given were more just excuses.. to put people out who might be weak, *homo*.. or whatever. Just excuses to thin the ranks.. and still try to keep (hopefully.. but not likely in a thousand years) "Hollywood star" types coming in the door..
You only need one of *them*.. or a small handful to really kick off your organization.. in contrast to trying to really help those who have supposed legitimate need..
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waysider
Trophy Mentality
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Ham
I think that is it partly..
they aren't netting celebrities by any means.. the next best trophy? One with a full set of teeth..
the concept that keeps coming back to me: "that da dumb ministry not be blamed.." for ANYTHING. Tooth loss of course, was probably highest on the list..
I think they just pledged themselves.. to an evil organization..
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lindyhopper
My first PFAL class was at Rome City at the age of 12. I concure. Boring and after being in TWI for 7 years already I had heard and read it all several times before.
So... one session the guy running the class left the room for a while and a friend on mine got up and fast forwarded the VCR through about 25 minutes of the class. No one thought about the fact that they timed the class and would notice if it ended early. The guy did notice and gave us all a stern talking too but no one ratted out my friend.
Good times.
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RumRunner
Gotta be sneakier my friend - way back in the day Joe Coldter introduced these tape players that skipped blank areas on the tape effectively speeding up the tape. However you could get it running so fast that the tape sounded like Alvin the chipmunk - pretty unintelligible - but HEY SANCTIONED BY THE ALMIGHTY HQ. So rather than listening to the interminably boring SNS tapes and the lunatic ranting corps tapes we just sped the thing up to top end - listened to an hour of SNS in 15 minutes or so - fulfilled our "requirements" then went and had some refreshments.
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Bramble
I think it is kind of amusing that they purged out this group, that group, every weakness they could find group, then one day the limb coords or other corps woke up to find they didn't have enough fellowships in the area to be called a limb/branch/poobah. ABS was way down. OOPS. Then it was "Whoa, be nice, be kind. I'm gonna lose my JOB!"
And funny how God didn't reward the perfect pure household with scads of new believers to join them in the Household of the Prevaling Word.
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TheHighWay
Excellent point!! Wasn't that the whole "purpose" of the purges? To clean out the 'unbelievers' so the Word could "really" move???? Hmmm... haven't seen that happen yet, lol. Of course, Craiggers covered his backside on that by saying that "the Word really moving didn't necessarily mean bigger numbers". So I guess the point became: whoever is left in twi after everyone else is gone gets to feel REALLY super specially spiritual... all five of them.
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Bramble
The whole 'Confronting the world with the word' type of witnessing didn't draw in the noobs, either.
There just weren't scads of people looking to perfect their lives, who would respond with thankfulness to our sharp eyes for seeing any type of imperfection!
People don't really give a $h!+ if absolute strangers take them to task about the lifestyle they are living. In fact, they think the stranger is a bizarre idiot busy body.
And what's sad, at one time the TWI folk may have had actual social skills--but they traded them in for the "Present truth."
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geisha779
I have to wonder about LCM's "Homo" purge. The obsession with Eve and lesbianism. . . and the obscene rants about certain body parts of a woman.
Seems to me. . . it might have been a result of certain things and people a little too close to home.
He lashed out like an insane man. . . if he had foamed at the mouth it would not have been out of keeping.
Could it have been some personal blow struck at his own bloated "Manly MOG" ego?
Didn't seem too too long after that. . . he was gone. Who booted him?
Who is left with the money. . . private vacations. . . and special friendship??
Why was he so OTT obsessed with homosexuality? Didn't he actually speak of killing people?
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WordWolf
We've discussed this before.
Some people have pointed out that many of the most virulent gay-bashers, the ones who are happy someone beats a
homosexual down with their fists, who might actually speak of killing people, often are over-compensating for some
inner fears and recognition. In other words, some of the men most FEARFUL of gays are afraid of their own
homosexual impulses, attractions and feelings. Me, I think it would have been obvious in other ways-
like, say, if he began showing interest in dance, and wearing shiny outfits and displaying rainbow insignias.
Personally, I don't think that was QUITE the issue lcm had.
I think he obsessed about homosexuality because he was hoist on his own petard.
He was STUPID ENOUGH to marry a woman whose sole criterion for marriage was "high climber in twi."
He was STUPID ENOUGH to retain a simple jock mentality about things- what he liked, being macho, etc.
IMHO,
he was STUPID ENOUGH to be interested in threesomes, and mentioned it in some form to his wife.
That was part of a "dumb jock" mentality, and viewing his wife as a THING, not a PERSON. She mattered IN RELATION TO HIM.
So, he starts mentioning more things any devout Christian leader would avoid.
This opens the door for other things he wasn't hoping for-
like the other 2/3 of a threesome assembling, but not inviting him to make up the last 1/3.
NOW we get to the issues lcm had.
He also went into rants that sounded like he was FEARFUL OF WOMEN, and afraid of women being in control of anything
affecting him. (We have recordings and documents on-site.)
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydal...n/lewinsky.html
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydal...iginal-sin.html
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editor...vagina-fix.html
lcm said that Clinton was expected to have affairs because he was married to a lesbian.
He made bizarre statements about twisted relationships between men and women.
Remember, this wasn't some weirdo who plots in his basement- this was the leader of a religious organization
who addressed thousands of people (by tape, etc) when he spoke.
I especially thing that last link is most informative as to the bizarre twists his mind took concerning marital
relationships- from experience.
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geisha779
I just had to highlight this. . . beyond chuckle worthy and right into laughing out loud.
LCM's comments . . . . in the links you provided. . . . reveal a very twisted perception of women. . .an unstable individual . . . and someone who took his own perversions and applied them to biblical teachings.
There is quite a paper awaiting some Psych student.
My personal favorite. . . the devil was trying to take down CAMPAIGN REFORM!!
Classic.
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Ham
which all makes me wonder.. who's he sleeping with tonight? An over the hill.. well past balding.. basically unskilled, unexciting has been of a dufas..
But those who had the brains or real ambition in the outfit (the women).. stood back and watched him squeeze.. and they let the "ministry" hemorrage people like running water.. didn't they "care"?
they watched as he demanded loyalty, and went through one purging session after another..
I don't think they agreed with him for one moment, on principle.
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chockfull
WordWolf, I think you have very perceptive insight into the inner workings of WHY. Things do not happen in a vacuum regarding people. There is an inner cause for everything. The destruction that manifest within eventually was reflected out. Then the aftermath is left, and people sweep it under the carpet and live on in its wake.
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geisha779
Oh my. Why did they let him do it? Think about it. . . you make such a great point! Okay, the family is gone. . . LCM is gone. . . there are only a few faithful minions hanging about. . . but, who is left there with ALL the money. . . the property. . . and can to do as they please?
Those two women. . . . who don't really hide their affection for each other. . . are in each other's pockets, and have the freedom and means to do as they please.
They let him purge the place and then finished the job, knocking it down to a manageable size.
Tell me this hasn't been going on for years. It isn't about "biblical research" or "Moving the Word over the world". . . .
It is about a romance.
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Ham
that makes perfect sense.
They provided the loyster with basically what he wanted.. a furnished stable, and let him hang himself with his own weenie..
there was no regard for the victims, or those who were purged and driven off.. no real doctrinal agreement with loy's madness.
I don't think they shed a single tear.
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chockfull
Now why does this sound to me like the intro to a trailer for a movie?
Two women ..... can't really hide their affection ...... in each other's pockets .... free to move ......
A forbidden love ...... they let him purge the place ...... now they've finished the job .......
Tell me this hasn't been going on for years .......
Is this really "biblical research"? ....... Is this really "Moving the Word over the world? .........
Come see .... the epic saga .......
Brokeback Farmlands........
[Queue the banjo music in background]
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now I see
Excellent analysis WordWolf, what you say here-"He also went into rants that sounded like he was FEARFUL OF WOMEN, and afraid of women being in control of anything affecting him" sounds an awful lot like vpw's relationship with his mother, which set the stage for him to develop into the cruel misogynist he was.
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