"11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."
The abundant life is spiritual abundance - not necessarily physical abundance.
It is completely against the scriptures to expect only good things to happen. In fact, both in the gospels and the OT there are records of significant BAD things that happened. And not just to people who are low in believing (to use a Way doctrine) but to those who are standing strongly for God. Jesus himself warns that people will have trouble. Didn't he himself have a little trouble from people? Mocked, laughed at, not believed; homeless/no fixed abode; constantly harassed by religious leaders; finally falsely arrested, beaten and murdered? (That's the example of an abundant life :blink: ?) Paul in Acts fame finds himself in serious sh1t more than a few times. Being stoned, or beaten, or chased out of town - isn't exactly abundant living, is it :blink: ?
Yet anything bad that happens to a Way believer is either due to that person's lack of believing, or to a devilish attack. Couldn't possibly be just because that's the way things are. Or worse, one's own lack of preparation or ability... could it?
But couple this with 1 John 3 - I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health - and you have a real problem with "material abundance doctrine."
Prosper is a good old English word meaning "thrive" in the sense of "growing well." Not in the sense of getting rich, which at that time was more an incidental use of the word.
There was power in the prayers of people at an individual level. Certainly I saw answered prayers in the life of the person who witnessed to me; that's what showed me something different from repetitious "churchy" prayers. But the longer one was around, the more the power seemed to be exercised from further up the "Way tree" upon adherents, than a real exercise of God's power.
The power in believers' lives and prayers was more in spite of, than because of, TWI. People learned in PFAL of God's promises and were told they could believe for [whatever] and some did so.
But as one became more involved, that power became subsumed by too much dogma and legalism - one was expected to give glory to TWI for teaching about this wonderful power - rather than give glory to God. In fact, PFAL itself teaches "selfish prayers" like "I want red drapes" not "Your will be done." And so - we "prosper" because God graciously grants us material things that we fancy and we learn to "put God in a box," restrict His Power, and curb his spiritual abundance.
And yet PFAL is the same class that taught: God can only give what he is - his gift of holy spirit.
In PFAL, the image of Christ is nothing more than a decoy [or to put biblically - a wolf in sheep's clothing] to lure sheep into the clutches of the wolf.
I think the real Jesus' mission was/is about saving souls and has very little to do with material benefits. I think vp's brand of so called Christianity is a genie-in-the-bottle snake oil gimmick – whatever you want/need in your life, PFAL can provide it... PFAL is not Christ-centered and a "successful" grad becomes more self-centered.
PFAL takes the place of the absent Christ. Christ is absent because he wasn't invited. And the greatest secret in Way-world today is that PFAL is just as good as the Bible. It remains a secret because "successful" grads are so indoctrinated that they can't distinguish between the two.
vp and all the other health & wealth "ministries" have done a remarkable job of morphing Scripture into a sales brochure for their pet doctrines.
and i've been thinking, if god led you out, it doesn't mean he led you in
if he worked in you while you were in, it doesn't mean he liked it
just thinking
That is an amazing statement. I have been pretty mad for a long time.... struggling to figure out how a supposedly loving God could lead me into such an evil situation. ...whew
Wow...all I can say is thanks. This makes so much sense to me.
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waysider
Ironic, isn't it?
The introductory verse of a class declaring the dangers of "private interpretation" was a prime example, in and of itself.
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excathedra
yup
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excathedra
and i've been thinking, if god led you out, it doesn't mean he led you in
if he worked in you while you were in, it doesn't mean he liked it
just thinking
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Tzaia
You got that right.
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excathedra
i can't help it, i do love this
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brainfixed
whole different lot of goods than we were sold in the way, isn't it?
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excathedra
it's all i ever wanted really
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brainfixed
me too.
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excathedra
thank you hugs
believe it or not, it is still difficult for me to talk about it (after 8 million posts)
when i think of a thief coming to steal, kill and destroy, i think of wierwille
maybe if he had just said, "i want to do you" major disgusting yuck, i would be able to handle it better
but the god thing pfffttt
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Twinky
The abundant life is spiritual abundance - not necessarily physical abundance.
It is completely against the scriptures to expect only good things to happen. In fact, both in the gospels and the OT there are records of significant BAD things that happened. And not just to people who are low in believing (to use a Way doctrine) but to those who are standing strongly for God. Jesus himself warns that people will have trouble. Didn't he himself have a little trouble from people? Mocked, laughed at, not believed; homeless/no fixed abode; constantly harassed by religious leaders; finally falsely arrested, beaten and murdered? (That's the example of an abundant life :blink: ?) Paul in Acts fame finds himself in serious sh1t more than a few times. Being stoned, or beaten, or chased out of town - isn't exactly abundant living, is it :blink: ?
Yet anything bad that happens to a Way believer is either due to that person's lack of believing, or to a devilish attack. Couldn't possibly be just because that's the way things are. Or worse, one's own lack of preparation or ability... could it?
But couple this with 1 John 3 - I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health - and you have a real problem with "material abundance doctrine."
Prosper is a good old English word meaning "thrive" in the sense of "growing well." Not in the sense of getting rich, which at that time was more an incidental use of the word.
There was power in the prayers of people at an individual level. Certainly I saw answered prayers in the life of the person who witnessed to me; that's what showed me something different from repetitious "churchy" prayers. But the longer one was around, the more the power seemed to be exercised from further up the "Way tree" upon adherents, than a real exercise of God's power.
The power in believers' lives and prayers was more in spite of, than because of, TWI. People learned in PFAL of God's promises and were told they could believe for [whatever] and some did so.
But as one became more involved, that power became subsumed by too much dogma and legalism - one was expected to give glory to TWI for teaching about this wonderful power - rather than give glory to God. In fact, PFAL itself teaches "selfish prayers" like "I want red drapes" not "Your will be done." And so - we "prosper" because God graciously grants us material things that we fancy and we learn to "put God in a box," restrict His Power, and curb his spiritual abundance.
And yet PFAL is the same class that taught: God can only give what he is - his gift of holy spirit.
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T-Bone
In PFAL, the image of Christ is nothing more than a decoy [or to put biblically - a wolf in sheep's clothing] to lure sheep into the clutches of the wolf.
I think the real Jesus' mission was/is about saving souls and has very little to do with material benefits. I think vp's brand of so called Christianity is a genie-in-the-bottle snake oil gimmick – whatever you want/need in your life, PFAL can provide it... PFAL is not Christ-centered and a "successful" grad becomes more self-centered.
PFAL takes the place of the absent Christ. Christ is absent because he wasn't invited. And the greatest secret in Way-world today is that PFAL is just as good as the Bible. It remains a secret because "successful" grads are so indoctrinated that they can't distinguish between the two.
vp and all the other health & wealth "ministries" have done a remarkable job of morphing Scripture into a sales brochure for their pet doctrines.
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rascal
That is an amazing statement. I have been pretty mad for a long time.... struggling to figure out how a supposedly loving God could lead me into such an evil situation. ...whew
Wow...all I can say is thanks. This makes so much sense to me.
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