It figures, someone in California getting bent out of shape over a car accident....go figure..
If thats the way they want to 'witness' to their neighbors I wouldnt be all that happy about it myself------and Im about as far from Southern Cal as you can get
To me the whole point is consideration of neighbors (remember: Love your neighbor (doesn't say anything about the neighbor being a believer or unbeliever) as yourself) not religious persecution. Most likely someone in the neighborhood complained to local authorities. Their reasons...who knows? Could be legitimate or just a dislike for this particular neighbor. I know that when someone in my neighborhood has a Tupperware party or whatever, it can be an inconvenience to folks coming over to my house by making it harder to park close to my house. Even Christians can be inconsiderate and in some cases have an "it's my world" attitude or even worse "I am a chosen one" attitude and I could care less about rank unbelievers (TWI self rightiousness).
I recall one incident when we were having a twig leaders meeting (in the 70's) in a house on a lake in Northern Indiana. The head honcho (forget the title now) had us up at 6 AM for a meeting and we were singing way songs waking up the folks next door. So the neighbor comes over and asks us to pipe it down since we waking up the whole neighborhood. The head honcho proceeded to get into a screaming match with the neighbor (since we were the chosen ones and have every right to do this). Anyway the guy calls the police and complains...the police come over and issue the head honcho with a disturbing the peace citation. You would have thought that we were the first century church being persecuted by the Roman authorities. I know I like to sleep in a little bit on a Sunday morning and actually even at the time (dispite being brainwashed) thought the head honcho was out of order. As a matter of fact he was such a jerk (total loss of self control), I was surprised the neighbor who displayed much greater amounts of self control didn't punch his lights out. Imagine that a rank unbeliever demonstrating greater self control (one of the fruits of the spirit) than the Mog of Northern Indiana...go figure!
The story still reads weird. A county employee does not have the authority to make the declarations the article says they made. If that's what happened, I say - sue 'em. Take it to the Fed's. Whack 'em with an ugly stick.
Traffic, parking, gathering - none of those things have anything to do with praying or saying "amen". And it's not unusual for people all over the country, everywhere to pile on a few cars too many on a street. Is the issue parking or meeting? Parking can be resolved without dealing with anything at all to do with it being home fellowship.
It's the height of hypocrisy to expect a Christian to maintain high degrees of humanitarian concern in their parking habits anyway. Geez - don't tell anyone you're a Christian or they'll use it to hammer you on everything you do right, wrong and whatever they don't like.
Every one is assuming that the county official didn't say that stuff... but a friend of mine had an equally disturbing discussion with one of our county employees here in the town where I live,,, Granted it didn't have the juiciness of a religious slant to it.. but he was and is the head of his department and was rude and told her that they were using her as an example and so tough luck pony up your bucks and if you don't pay we will just keep piling on the fines.
needless to say she paid and not too long after that the supposed violation stopped being enforced. (basket ball hoop sitting at the curb) What they did was post notices on the offending basketball hoops... and some one tore the one on her hoop off so she never go the notice... and no it wasn't posted in the paper or anywhere.
So it isn't totally out of the realm of possibility the county employee said such things.
Of course knowing how much Newspapers mess up stories and tv too I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the story was embellished on.
13 And one of the multitude said to him: Master, speak to my brother that he divide the inheritance with me.
14 But he said to him: Man, who hath appointed me judge, or divider, over you?
I have long felt that mankind (and womankind, kinds of all kinds) want to squeeze every possible meaning out of every nuance of everything we think that Jesus might have said or meant or thought in every word that He said, or is said to have said or would have said if He'd had the time because we have to have a Jesus-Answer on everything we have to deal with, or just in case we might need to tell someone else how to deal with something. We need answers and Jesus is the U-AM, the Ultimate Answer Man because if an answer is needed, He'll have it. We think.
But somethings we just have to decide for ourselves, ill-equipped as we might be. Like the other better known question about paying taxes. When asked Jesus gave an answer and then He and Peter went off and handled their own affairs regarding paying taxes in private. But god forbid anyone try to do anything in private and be left alone, there's always someone somewhere that wants to inspect your shorts and make sure they're on straight. And charge you for the inspection.
I am shocked the ACLU is not beating down this county's door if it truly is related to religious persecution.
My first question..where was the visitor parked? Hellllooooo!!!! Where was the county the five years this group had been meeting? Where were the neighbors the entire five years prior to this incident? The neighbors did not complain. The visitor complained. Hellllooooo!!!!!
I bet you folks who live, work, park, and drive in congested areas are having a good laugh over this one.
Some years ago the ACLU did get involved in the next town over with a Bible study group. The county, I think the fire dept., said the folks could not have the 15 or 20 meeting in the home due to fire hazard or something like that. The ACLU did defend the Bible group to the hilt. I often wondered what action the county would have taken if this home had 10 or 12 children. Imagine when all the young'ins started driving......
There are links to a number of primary source documents on the Western Center for Law & Policy (the organization that is representing the pastor and his wife) website at http://www.wclplaw.org/news.html , including a link to the warning-level citation by an enforcement officer that brought religious-assembly issues into play. In her warning, the enforcement officer did not issue corrective requirements for any alleged nuisances (e.g. parking problems, excess traffic), but focused on the assembly in the house being religious in nature.
I'm always just a little hesitant about taking one side's account of the story-
or one side's website account of the story.
I read the Snopes piece, but didn't check out the links. I do see that one of them leads to the warning citation.
What you refer to as "the official reply," however, is a press release. I'm a bit hesitant about taking a public official doing damage-control uncritically. Mr. Ekard's distinction between "a land use issue" and "an issue of religious expression," for instance, is -- in the context of the subject controversy -- neither reassuring nor informative.
I read the Snopes piece, but didn't check out the links. I do see that one of them leads to the warning citation.
What you refer to as "the official reply," however, is a press release. I'm a bit hesitant about taking a public official doing damage-control uncritically. Mr. Ekard's distinction between "a land use issue" and "an issue of religious expression," for instance, is -- in the context of the subject controversy -- neither reassuring nor informative.
From the "press release":
"The County responded to complaints from a neighbor about traffic and parking issues resulting from a weekly Bible study held in a
Bonita home. This is a land use issue; it's not an issue of religious expression."
From the site you linked, AFTER the investigation:
"I want to reassure you that this matter, however perceived by you or by others, was in fact a land use matter stemming from a
complaint. It was in no way an attempt by San Diego County to infringe upon your religious freedoms."
I'm not sure how "informative" a statement BEFORE THE INVESTIGATION is supposed to be, but I'd be MORE
suspicious of one that made pronouncements BEFORE all the facts were in. I wait until the results to get offended,
"The County responded to complaints from a neighbor about traffic and parking issues resulting from a weekly Bible study held in a
Bonita home. This is a land use issue; it's not an issue of religious expression."
From the site you linked, AFTER the investigation:
"I want to reassure you that this matter, however perceived by you or by others, was in fact a land use matter stemming from a
complaint. It was in no way an attempt by San Diego County to infringe upon your religious freedoms."
I'm not sure how "informative" a statement BEFORE THE INVESTIGATION is supposed to be, but I'd be MORE
suspicious of one that made pronouncements BEFORE all the facts were in. I wait until the results to get offended,
and don't need soothing before then.
If you care to notice, I waited for a few primary source documents to spring up on the internet -- and more than two weeks longer than you -- before starting to run my mouth in this thread.
If you care to notice, I waited for a few primary source documents to spring up on the internet -- and more than two weeks longer than you -- before starting to run my mouth in this thread.
A) My first comment was to point out the WND was an unreliable source-
and the sole source of the story to begin with.
So was my second comment.
(I documented its unreliability, too.)
B) As soon as another local source said anything, I linked it and posted the article.
C) My 4th post consisted entirely of the link to Snopes' coverage of same.
In each case, I stuck to what I could document-or had already documented.
I don't know if you consider that "running my mouth", but I consider that "posting."
Personally, I think those were pretty GOOD posts, based on good posting procedure.
(I wasn't required to wait for the primary source documents to point out an absence
of documentation existed- that sort of observation is worth noting on its own.)
If you're referring to your own post exclusively as "running your mouth", I don't
know why. I disagreed but did so in a civil fashion, if not in the most harmonious
one. If you saw a post where someone said you "ran your mouth" in this thread,
I missed it- please point it out. Otherwise, you might just be taking the thread
a little too personally. When I do that, I log off and consider taking a brisk walk
We live across the street from a small church, and even they have to make nice with the neighbors about parking. People who park in front of their homes get really irritated when a church person gets in their parking spot forcing them to park up the block. The church sends its ushers outdoors on busy holiday Sundays and directs traffic to the empty gradeschool parking lot. Its further away but keeps the neighbors happy. Their consideration for the neighborhood is appreciated.
Most Wiccans and Pagans I know meet in the home around here, though big group events might be on state forest land, which has plenty of rules for proper use that must be followed. Crap is sure to follow any problems w/a pagan or Wiccan group meeting and pagans and Wiccans are aware.
Quit while you're behind, guy. Wordwolf has a very good rep at checking his sources before he 'runs his mou'-- err, posts. ;)
This is Yet Another Example of 'We Christians Being S-o-o Persecuted for Our Beliefs' that doesn't quite pan out that way. ... And a tirade that has all the 'Fair & Balanced' reputation of Faux News. <_< Which is to say, ... none.
If what was in the article is true (sorry, I didn't check all the sources like some others did) then the government entity in question is way out of line. You can have friends over for a barbeque, but you can't have your friends over to "say Amen"? It sounds like a parking and noise issue that morphed into a land use issue pretty quickly and got bogged down in the religios aspect. That's what happens sometimes when you get the law involved.
By the way I first heard about this on Witch's Voice and a good number of the pagans who commented were sympathetic to the church folks involved.
If what was in the article is true (sorry, I didn't check all the sources like some others did) then the government entity in question is way out of line. You can have friends over for a barbeque, but you can't have your friends over to "say Amen"? It sounds like a parking and noise issue that morphed into a land use issue pretty quickly and got bogged down in the religios aspect. That's what happens sometimes when you get the law involved.
By the way I first heard about this on Witch's Voice and a good number of the pagans who commented were sympathetic to the church folks involved.
My read on the story was the same-
"a parking-and-noise issue that morphed into a land-use issue pretty quickly and got bogged down
in the religious aspect" and the government worker who responded first was "way out of line."
I'm glad more sensible folk were the ones following up, and in charge of seeing where things went from there.
(The End.)
Now let's all have coffee and cake in the music room. :)
Recommended Posts
now I see
It figures, someone in California getting bent out of shape over a car accident....go figure..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
If thats the way they want to 'witness' to their neighbors I wouldnt be all that happy about it myself------and Im about as far from Southern Cal as you can get
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Calflor
To me the whole point is consideration of neighbors (remember: Love your neighbor (doesn't say anything about the neighbor being a believer or unbeliever) as yourself) not religious persecution. Most likely someone in the neighborhood complained to local authorities. Their reasons...who knows? Could be legitimate or just a dislike for this particular neighbor. I know that when someone in my neighborhood has a Tupperware party or whatever, it can be an inconvenience to folks coming over to my house by making it harder to park close to my house. Even Christians can be inconsiderate and in some cases have an "it's my world" attitude or even worse "I am a chosen one" attitude and I could care less about rank unbelievers (TWI self rightiousness).
I recall one incident when we were having a twig leaders meeting (in the 70's) in a house on a lake in Northern Indiana. The head honcho (forget the title now) had us up at 6 AM for a meeting and we were singing way songs waking up the folks next door. So the neighbor comes over and asks us to pipe it down since we waking up the whole neighborhood. The head honcho proceeded to get into a screaming match with the neighbor (since we were the chosen ones and have every right to do this). Anyway the guy calls the police and complains...the police come over and issue the head honcho with a disturbing the peace citation. You would have thought that we were the first century church being persecuted by the Roman authorities. I know I like to sleep in a little bit on a Sunday morning and actually even at the time (dispite being brainwashed) thought the head honcho was out of order. As a matter of fact he was such a jerk (total loss of self control), I was surprised the neighbor who displayed much greater amounts of self control didn't punch his lights out. Imagine that a rank unbeliever demonstrating greater self control (one of the fruits of the spirit) than the Mog of Northern Indiana...go figure!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Only with a thin margin, paper thin.
The story still reads weird. A county employee does not have the authority to make the declarations the article says they made. If that's what happened, I say - sue 'em. Take it to the Fed's. Whack 'em with an ugly stick.
Traffic, parking, gathering - none of those things have anything to do with praying or saying "amen". And it's not unusual for people all over the country, everywhere to pile on a few cars too many on a street. Is the issue parking or meeting? Parking can be resolved without dealing with anything at all to do with it being home fellowship.
"How would Jesus park?"
Gimme a break.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
leafytwiglet
Every one is assuming that the county official didn't say that stuff... but a friend of mine had an equally disturbing discussion with one of our county employees here in the town where I live,,, Granted it didn't have the juiciness of a religious slant to it.. but he was and is the head of his department and was rude and told her that they were using her as an example and so tough luck pony up your bucks and if you don't pay we will just keep piling on the fines.
needless to say she paid and not too long after that the supposed violation stopped being enforced. (basket ball hoop sitting at the curb) What they did was post notices on the offending basketball hoops... and some one tore the one on her hoop off so she never go the notice... and no it wasn't posted in the paper or anywhere.
So it isn't totally out of the realm of possibility the county employee said such things.
Of course knowing how much Newspapers mess up stories and tv too I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the story was embellished on.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
priceless..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
It might require years of research and all..
but where WOULD he park?
you'd think.. "wherever he wants"..
but I don't think he'd be obnoxious about it all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
WWJS
(what would Jesus sing?)
"Yes, I love me
This I know-----"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
13 And one of the multitude said to him: Master, speak to my brother that he divide the inheritance with me.
14 But he said to him: Man, who hath appointed me judge, or divider, over you?
I have long felt that mankind (and womankind, kinds of all kinds) want to squeeze every possible meaning out of every nuance of everything we think that Jesus might have said or meant or thought in every word that He said, or is said to have said or would have said if He'd had the time because we have to have a Jesus-Answer on everything we have to deal with, or just in case we might need to tell someone else how to deal with something. We need answers and Jesus is the U-AM, the Ultimate Answer Man because if an answer is needed, He'll have it. We think.
But somethings we just have to decide for ourselves, ill-equipped as we might be. Like the other better known question about paying taxes. When asked Jesus gave an answer and then He and Peter went off and handled their own affairs regarding paying taxes in private. But god forbid anyone try to do anything in private and be left alone, there's always someone somewhere that wants to inspect your shorts and make sure they're on straight. And charge you for the inspection.
B******T.
.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
kimberly
I am shocked the ACLU is not beating down this county's door if it truly is related to religious persecution.
My first question..where was the visitor parked? Hellllooooo!!!! Where was the county the five years this group had been meeting? Where were the neighbors the entire five years prior to this incident? The neighbors did not complain. The visitor complained. Hellllooooo!!!!!
I bet you folks who live, work, park, and drive in congested areas are having a good laugh over this one.
Some years ago the ACLU did get involved in the next town over with a Bible study group. The county, I think the fire dept., said the folks could not have the 15 or 20 meeting in the home due to fire hazard or something like that. The ACLU did defend the Bible group to the hilt. I often wondered what action the county would have taken if this home had 10 or 12 children. Imagine when all the young'ins started driving......
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Cynic
There are links to a number of primary source documents on the Western Center for Law & Policy (the organization that is representing the pastor and his wife) website at http://www.wclplaw.org/news.html , including a link to the warning-level citation by an enforcement officer that brought religious-assembly issues into play. In her warning, the enforcement officer did not issue corrective requirements for any alleged nuisances (e.g. parking problems, excess traffic), but focused on the assembly in the house being religious in nature.
Citation: http://www.wclplaw.org/news%5CCitation.pdf
Letter rescinding citation: http://www.wclplaw.org/news/countyresponse.pdf
Apology: http://www.wclplaw.org/news/ekardapology.pdf
Edited by CynicLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
And if anyone actually clicked the Snopes link, they would have seen the link to the
official reply:
http://weblog.signonsandiego.com/news/breaking/ecke.pdf
I'm always just a little hesitant about taking one side's account of the story-
or one side's website account of the story.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Cynic
I read the Snopes piece, but didn't check out the links. I do see that one of them leads to the warning citation.
What you refer to as "the official reply," however, is a press release. I'm a bit hesitant about taking a public official doing damage-control uncritically. Mr. Ekard's distinction between "a land use issue" and "an issue of religious expression," for instance, is -- in the context of the subject controversy -- neither reassuring nor informative.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
From the "press release":
"The County responded to complaints from a neighbor about traffic and parking issues resulting from a weekly Bible study held in a
Bonita home. This is a land use issue; it's not an issue of religious expression."
From the site you linked, AFTER the investigation:
"I want to reassure you that this matter, however perceived by you or by others, was in fact a land use matter stemming from a
complaint. It was in no way an attempt by San Diego County to infringe upon your religious freedoms."
I'm not sure how "informative" a statement BEFORE THE INVESTIGATION is supposed to be, but I'd be MORE
suspicious of one that made pronouncements BEFORE all the facts were in. I wait until the results to get offended,
and don't need soothing before then.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Cynic
If you care to notice, I waited for a few primary source documents to spring up on the internet -- and more than two weeks longer than you -- before starting to run my mouth in this thread.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
A) My first comment was to point out the WND was an unreliable source-
and the sole source of the story to begin with.
So was my second comment.
(I documented its unreliability, too.)
B) As soon as another local source said anything, I linked it and posted the article.
C) My 4th post consisted entirely of the link to Snopes' coverage of same.
In each case, I stuck to what I could document-or had already documented.
I don't know if you consider that "running my mouth", but I consider that "posting."
Personally, I think those were pretty GOOD posts, based on good posting procedure.
(I wasn't required to wait for the primary source documents to point out an absence
of documentation existed- that sort of observation is worth noting on its own.)
If you're referring to your own post exclusively as "running your mouth", I don't
know why. I disagreed but did so in a civil fashion, if not in the most harmonious
one. If you saw a post where someone said you "ran your mouth" in this thread,
I missed it- please point it out. Otherwise, you might just be taking the thread
a little too personally. When I do that, I log off and consider taking a brisk walk
around the block before logging in again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
We live across the street from a small church, and even they have to make nice with the neighbors about parking. People who park in front of their homes get really irritated when a church person gets in their parking spot forcing them to park up the block. The church sends its ushers outdoors on busy holiday Sundays and directs traffic to the empty gradeschool parking lot. Its further away but keeps the neighbors happy. Their consideration for the neighborhood is appreciated.
Most Wiccans and Pagans I know meet in the home around here, though big group events might be on state forest land, which has plenty of rules for proper use that must be followed. Crap is sure to follow any problems w/a pagan or Wiccan group meeting and pagans and Wiccans are aware.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Cynic,
Quit while you're behind, guy. Wordwolf has a very good rep at checking his sources before he 'runs his mou'-- err, posts. ;)
This is Yet Another Example of 'We Christians Being S-o-o Persecuted for Our Beliefs' that doesn't quite pan out that way. ... And a tirade that has all the 'Fair & Balanced' reputation of Faux News. <_< Which is to say, ... none.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
If what was in the article is true (sorry, I didn't check all the sources like some others did) then the government entity in question is way out of line. You can have friends over for a barbeque, but you can't have your friends over to "say Amen"? It sounds like a parking and noise issue that morphed into a land use issue pretty quickly and got bogged down in the religios aspect. That's what happens sometimes when you get the law involved.
By the way I first heard about this on Witch's Voice and a good number of the pagans who commented were sympathetic to the church folks involved.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JeffSjo
It is soooo cool when simple human decency overrides religious differences.
(yep, edited for spelling)
Sarcasm here..............serve God, be a d-ckhead!
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
My read on the story was the same-
"a parking-and-noise issue that morphed into a land-use issue pretty quickly and got bogged down
in the religious aspect" and the government worker who responded first was "way out of line."
I'm glad more sensible folk were the ones following up, and in charge of seeing where things went from there.
(The End.)
Now let's all have coffee and cake in the music room. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
now I see
"Faux News" :lol: Good one Garth!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.