Im wary of anything that comes out of World Net Daily.
She says she was then told, however, that she must stop holding "religious
assemblies" until she and her husband obtain a Major Use Permit from the county,
a permit that often involves traffic and environmental studies, compliance with
parking and sidewalk regulations and costs that top tens of thousands of
dollars.
The cost for a Major Use Permit in San Diego according to their website is $240 not "tens of thousands"
I expect anyone who is running a business in their home that has 15 people at a time showing up has to have the same type of permit plus most likely liability insurance. I have to have a permit and insurance for my business. Why should they think that they are exempt? They're actually getting off easy if they dont have to have insurance to protect their "paying customers"
Its a public safety issue. Is their plumbing in the house? Is it safe for 15 people to be there in event of fire? is the parking going to cause a traffic hazard? Is the neighborhood zoned for "major use"? What was the neighbors beef that made the commissioners show up?
Who gets to pay and cleanup their mess if a situation arises? The taxpayers?
Licensing is a normal part of any business anywhere in the country
Sounds like maybe they were "bad neighbors". (ie: created parking problems, sang loudly at inappropriate times, tried to recruit new members during the season finale of American Idol, etc.) The Way went through quite a bit of this back in the day, when door-to-door was considered a form of solicitation. Go figure, huh?
edit:
The county officials are probably all "seed boys".
I'm a little dubious about the supposed questions asked of the pastor's family as well. As anal as some small communities can get (and we've got a few around here that fine you for parking a pickup on the street for more than 45 minutes), I'm a little reluctant to believe that the county council gives a damn if they say "Praise the Lord" during their service.
I'd be a lot more likely to believe that the whole issue revolves around noise and traffic problems more than anything else. And, like Mstar already pointed out, they're running a business out of their home (yes, Virginia, religion is a business, they just don't have to produce a product), why shouldn't they have a license?
I tend to agree on this one, people get mighty touchy about parking when those hosting the meetings every week don't go out of their way to make up for it and proactively make sure no one is being bothered. Especially in high density areas in so cal. Someone had to be bothered enough to sic the city on them, but there's not enough information here to make a qualified interpretation of what exactly the origin was from this article.
The complainer might have been an athiest or from a different religion who objected to home meetings in principle, we don't know. The article never says what the original complaint was except it violated city statutes for business/church in the home. They should comply with that, as much as one man's home is his castle so is his neighbor's home, with the block being their kingdom.
My ten will get your one that the initial poster/believer in this WND tripe, after seeing that their "our home fellowships are being taken over by the godless, Stalinist, Obama-led GOVERNMENT" tirade taken apart, ... vanishes into the woodwork, never to be seen again.
Absolutely! It is an absolute abomination for anyone to be permitted to meet with friends on a weekly basis in their home, especially to pray, sing hymns and praise God! That pastor and his wife must be made an example! Take them to the nearest soccer stadium, assemble all of their neighbors, hang them, draw and quarter them and parade their disgusting heads around on pikes!
Oh, Wait! This is America. Our Constitution says " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,'" so maybe it should be used to start the fire to burn their worthless carcasses.
I bet if they were Muslim, Jewish or Wiccan, there would be no objections whatsoever. Or if it was a meeting of NAMBLA that would be okay.
I believe you can be Christian and conservative or Christian and liberal, but the knee jerk reaction on GSC to soundly condemn any Christian group that has problems like this astounds me.
And yes, there was one twig of WOW's in Ft. Worth who met in someone's home and were asked not to take up all the parking, but that was eventually resolved. Being a good neighbor is important, but it is a two-way street.
And no one can say whether the pastor and his wife were baldfaced liars about what the county official told them or not, though y'all seem to assume they are.
And by the way, a community group is NOT a business, it's a community group.
Absolutely! It is an absolute abomination for anyone to be permitted to meet with friends on a weekly basis in their home, especially to pray, sing hymns and praise God! That pastor and his wife must be made an example! Take them to the nearest soccer stadium, assemble all of their neighbors, hang them, draw and quarter them and parade their disgusting heads around on pikes!
Oh, Wait! This is America. Our Constitution says " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,'" so maybe it should be used to start the fire to burn their worthless carcasses.
I bet if they were Muslim, Jewish or Wiccan, there would be no objections whatsoever. Or if it was a meeting of NAMBLA that would be okay.
I believe you can be Christian and conservative or Christian and liberal, but the knee jerk reaction on GSC to soundly condemn any Christian group that has problems like this astounds me.
And yes, there was one twig of WOW's in Ft. Worth who met in someone's home and were asked not to take up all the parking, but that was eventually resolved. Being a good neighbor is important, but it is a two-way street.
And no one can say whether the pastor and his wife were baldfaced liars about what the county official told them or not, though y'all seem to assume they are.
And by the way, a community group is NOT a business, it's a community group.
WG
Actually, my first issue is that the SOLE SOURCE (I just did some checking) of this story is WND.
No LOCAL papers covered it, no REPUTABLE news source has announced something on it.
All the discussion goes from WND- which doesn't check its stories for little things like ACCURACY-
directly into the blogosphere, where much saber-rattling and outrage are added.
I've seen that happen lots of times- when someone was scamming the public.
Notice how even the WND says they don't have one official who said
"I'm aware of this, the policy is X, which is why this is an issue."
I save my outrage for actual ISSUES. I don't have infinite energy to whip up outrage every time someone
else decides to manufacture a moral crisis. I save it up for the REAL crises.
I am wrong to prejudge this group based on my TWI experience. Maybe they are perfectly sincere and well meaning people. I really don't know, one way or the other, based on the information provided. I'll say this, though. For a couple of years, my TWI "job", so to speak, was to find places where we could hold classes, branch meetings, places for the grand poobah to make his heralded entrance, pubic ex.'s and so on. I always appealed to the potential benefactors sense of civic duty. In other words, I presented our efforts as philanthropic and selfless. I didn't realize it at the time, but that was actually fraudulent. Those meetings that I helped coordinate were nothing short of sales presentations. Hence, they were driven by profit not altruism. We frequently ran into problems that had nothing to do with religious bias and lots to do with common sense. (ie: not enough parking, etc.) In addition, there were several communities in Ohio that prohibited door to door and mall witnessing unless an official vendors license was obtained. Does this have any bearing on the group being discussed here? I simply don't know.
One thing I do know is that the "first century church" met in homes out of necessity, not choice.
My ten will get your one that the initial poster/believer in this WND tripe, after seeing that their "our home fellowships are being taken over by the godless, Stalinist, Obama-led GOVERNMENT" tirade taken apart, ... vanishes into the woodwork, never to be seen again.
Which is typical for folks like that. <_<
Dude you just having a bad day? I didn't see any references to Stalin, Obama, etc etc. Lighten up and save it for someone like oldiesman.
OK that said - I live in San Diego and couldn't find any reference to this "incident" at all. I checked with the usual news sources as well as an attorney acquaintance. He considered it highly unlikely that the county would try something like that unless occupancy safety limits were being exceeded. Sounds like the usual christian hype we were drilled with about everyone in the world conspiring to get us...of course I hear that from plenty of muslims, American minority groups and more...so it isn't limited to those ephesians addicts.
Edited to add - I've never been to WND - never heard of it - so I visited. I'm just kinda thinking that if you want more alarmist "news" than they publish you mighta just should have stayed in TWI. I perused a few articles - some copied from mainstream media (API etc) probably for credibility and when it fits their agenda - others from who knows what late night talk with jesus - or vic - or sheesh. I bet Rush Treelimbaugh likes that place
I checked too, and couldn't find and san diego papers carrying the story, and all the similar articles based theirs on the WND as their source.
Even though we live in America, I happen to live in a gated HOA community, and I don't get to do what I want with my home because there are HOA rules that don't allow for that, unless I want consequences, I can't even park on the street here after midnight, unless I want to be towed! And, there are city statutes that won't let me do everything I want either, unless I don't mind the consequences.
There are ways to fight city hall, but paying fines for ignoring their statutes is not the smart way.
Indeed. The wif' and I were talking about this (she's in media p/r) and right now there's nothing more on this story other than the one story in WND.
Probably a "bad neighbor" complaint started it - parking, noise, sumpin'. I'd want to know the background on the whole thing before I got concerned on a wider scale. I have a feeling we won't hear much more about it.
The 'major use permit' deal is regarding zoning. I seriously doubt that the county would make the demands noted in the story - they can't arbitrarily demand a permit be obtained without due process being carried out which would include public hearings regarding the issue at hand. "Expensive" studies aren't demanded for something like this situation unless they're determined necessary during the proces. In short a county "employee" has no responsibility to show up on someone's door step and make an ad hoc determination of any kind.
I would think there's history in the story that isn't being covered in the WND piece. If it's true the couple should take the county to court and blast the county out of the water. What the story reports is a rediculous abuse of law and process but I have my doubts it's the full story.
"Home fellowships" should be allowed, without question. Okay, maybe a couple and as long as no one's getting hurt, it's hardly a dangerous proposition, on face value. Bunch of cars show up every Tuesday night and there's a bunch of racket, neighbors have a right to inquire. It should be a fairly easy situation to resolve. This is America. I don't care why people two thousand years ago met or where as much as I care about what I do and how I do it and if I want to host a get togther of friends and interested people in my home to fellowship around our faith and the bible, I will. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to face off with me and we can talk about it. Nothing more American than getting into a fight over one's faith. Pass the apple pie.
If you're receiving money, "offerings" - that could certainly be construed as a business and god forbid if money changes hands and the government doesn't get a cut. That's going to lead to trouble. They'll be on you like sticky on a stamp until they get their fees or taxes. But it's a trite issue in my mind if it's nothng more than a few people getting together for a few hours for the kinds of things we know as "church in the home".
he knee jerk reaction on GSC to soundly condemn any Christian group that has problems like this astounds me.
well--no--I never "soundly condemned" them because they were christian----I dont care if they are christian, muslim, selling tupperware, smoking crack or watching football. It makes no neverminds to me what people do unless they are a nuisance or hazard to their neighbors. Something made the county take notice and require a zoning variance for their activities. Why shouldnt they be required to obey the laws that everyone else has to live by?
I help to organize meetings several times a year for fundraisers and activities to raise money or do other things for the homeless shelter in my town that I am involved with. We keep it a top priority to obey all the laws and keep on a very good footing with the entire community as a matter of not only principle but practicality. Its not even really a question, its what we do. I have had to acquire all sorts of licenses for various activities that we've done to keep it honorable and on the up and up to anyone.
Whats the big deal?
Why would the concept of being good law abiding neighbors and respectful members of the community be so foreign to some 'christian' groups?
Why would the concept of being good law abiding neighbors and respectful members of the community be so foreign to some 'christian' groups?
Good question mstar.I would expect that, at the least, if not moreso.
Again, we really don't have all the facts. I've found WND to be an unreliable source of information, similar to what Wordwolf posted. IMO they're basically hacks. I'm a Christian in good standing, dues paid and I've got this year's T-Shirt but I don't like being b-s'd and expected to get on board because someone slaps a cross on it.
The information in the article doesn't sound - to me - like it's complete. If it's completely true, as stated with no other significant information to alter the stance the articles takes - it sucks because the county's acting illegally - according to what's stated. It would have no cause, based on what's reported, to demand a permit be needed or applied for. The methods used to determine what's going on there, according to the article, wouldn't stand any test of a legal submission of information or data. So, either San Diego's got a screw loose or sumpin's cranked too tight in the article.
For casual meetings, I think permits and variances are overkill. All "good neighbor" expectations apply.
Funny non-related example. We lived years ago in a home on a street where there was a family that the Dad liked to do neighborhood shindigs. He was kind of a pain in the as s to be honest, but harmless. One year, he went around and said "he" was planning a "street-event" for July 4th and everone was invited to break out the barb-eez and beers and move to the street. It was a pretty long street, end to end. We had plans to go to an event for the day so we declined. And as it turned out about 3/4s of the neighborhood did too. He wanted everyone to end up in his backyard for "games". Well, lots of people had their own plans. Pretty standard, he got pis sy about it, and really tried to get everyone onboard. Real fun guy.
Anyway, about 10 am they blocked off both ends of the street so no traffic could enter or leave, so "everyone" could - I dunno, I guess barbeque in the street or something. I went over and told him we had to leave and he said oh no, you have to stay! It's a block party, it'll be fun!
So I had to move the barriers and drive out. Our neighbors told us the next day it was a mess, someone finally called the police to complain about the traffic barriers and enemies were made that day. I didn't like the guy to begin with so no love was lost. But Iheard the police told him he was nuts. You can't do dat without permits, it's a public street. What if there was a fire?
Good neighbors - good to come by, hard to find sometimes.
My ten will get your one that the initial poster ... vanishes into the woodwork, never to be seen again.
so far your read's good on that one
I emailed the author of the article, Drew Zahn of WND and invited him here to see if he wants to clear up the uncertainties in the story or not-- any bets on that One? :)
Pastor Fights County Over Permit For Home Bible Study
POSTED: 6:40 pm PDT May 27, 2009
UPDATED: 8:49 am PDT May 28, 2009
BONITA, Calif. -- A local pastor said the County has cited him for hosting a weekly Bible study in his home. The County said visitors who drive to those meetings are affecting traffic in the neighborhood.
Pastor David Jones has been hosting weekly Bible studies at his Bonita home during the past five years. About 15 people attend the meetings, he told 10News.
Jones said a visitor to a neighbor's house called the County after a Bible study member hit the visitor’s car while leaving. Shortly after, a county code enforcement officer gave him a citation that said he needed a permit to host the weekly Bible study meetings, he said.
Jones and his attorneys sid he shouldn't have to get a permit for what he does inside his house. "We think it is clearly permissible. We think this is a violation of our constitutional rights," Jones told 10News.
A County spokeswoman says the County is concerned with parking and its impact on the neighborhood.
The two sides met Wednesday but resolved nothing.
Jones said they're scheduled to meet again on June 9.
SAN DIEGO -- A local pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a San Diego County official, who then threatened them with escalating fines if they continued to hold Bible studies in their home, 10News reported.
Attorney Dean Broyles of The Western Center For Law & Policy was shocked with what happened to the pastor and his wife.
Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'"
The county employee notified the couple that the small Bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of County regulations, according to Broyles.
Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit" -- a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars.
"For churches and religious assemblies there's big parking concerns, there's environmental impact concerns when you have hundreds or thousands of people gathering. But this is a different situation, and we believe that the application of the religious assembly principles to this Bible study is certainly misplaced," said Broyles.
News of the case has rapidly spread across Internet blogs and has spurred various reactions.
Broyles said his clients have asked to stay anonymous until they give the county a demand letter that states by enforcing this regulation the county is violating their First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion.
Broyles also said this case has broader implications.
"If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?" Broyles asked.
Broyles and his clients plan to give the County their demand letter this week.
If the County refuses to release the pastor and his wife from obtaining the permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.
ONE local news source, plus FoxNews. (Total, one news source.)
Nobody else has picked the story up.
Normally, you get a FEW local sources to pick something up.....
Good point. I was interested in that the local station (10News) is not a slog news site but is mainstream and considered pretty representative of any typical large city news station.
(It's a corn-spiracy I tell ya. A corn-spiracy, ... setup by the Illuminati!)
Whenever you have a residential get together, and it disrupts neighborhood traffic, ... regardless of what suspicions one might want to fester about the 'gummint' (in its never ending persecution of those of the Christian faith, that is ), you're gonna have to deal with those traffic issues, along with disturbing of the peace issues (a disturbance cause by some of the elderly ladies horrendously off-key singing of their 'Praise the Lawd', ... which is criminal enough! :wacko: ).
Perhaps the good TWIG---errr, home fellowship pastor should pass around the horn o' plent--ahh I mean, plate, for the collection to widen the driveway for the people to park in.
But in all seriousness, zoning laws do not a religious persecution make. ... Sowwy!
(It's a corn-spiracy I tell ya. A corn-spiracy, ... setup by the Illuminati!)
Whenever you have a residential get together, and it disrupts neighborhood traffic, ... regardless of what suspicions one might want to fester about the 'gummint' (in its never ending persecution of those of the Christian faith, that is ), you're gonna have to deal with those traffic issues, along with disturbing of the peace issues (a disturbance cause by some of the elderly ladies horrendously off-key singing of their 'Praise the Lawd', ... which is criminal enough! :wacko: ).
Perhaps the good TWIG---errr, home fellowship pastor should pass around the horn o' plent--ahh I mean, plate, for the collection to widen the driveway for the people to park in.
But in all seriousness, zoning laws do not a religious persecution make. ... Sowwy!
IT was not the zoning law so much as what the man supposedly said to the homeowners/pastor that turns it into religious persecution... IF this is truly what happened.
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mstar1
Im wary of anything that comes out of World Net Daily.
The cost for a Major Use Permit in San Diego according to their website is $240 not "tens of thousands"
I expect anyone who is running a business in their home that has 15 people at a time showing up has to have the same type of permit plus most likely liability insurance. I have to have a permit and insurance for my business. Why should they think that they are exempt? They're actually getting off easy if they dont have to have insurance to protect their "paying customers"
Its a public safety issue. Is their plumbing in the house? Is it safe for 15 people to be there in event of fire? is the parking going to cause a traffic hazard? Is the neighborhood zoned for "major use"? What was the neighbors beef that made the commissioners show up?
Who gets to pay and cleanup their mess if a situation arises? The taxpayers?
Licensing is a normal part of any business anywhere in the country
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waysider
Sounds like maybe they were "bad neighbors". (ie: created parking problems, sang loudly at inappropriate times, tried to recruit new members during the season finale of American Idol, etc.) The Way went through quite a bit of this back in the day, when door-to-door was considered a form of solicitation. Go figure, huh?
edit:
The county officials are probably all "seed boys".
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George Aar
I'm a little dubious about the supposed questions asked of the pastor's family as well. As anal as some small communities can get (and we've got a few around here that fine you for parking a pickup on the street for more than 45 minutes), I'm a little reluctant to believe that the county council gives a damn if they say "Praise the Lord" during their service.
I'd be a lot more likely to believe that the whole issue revolves around noise and traffic problems more than anything else. And, like Mstar already pointed out, they're running a business out of their home (yes, Virginia, religion is a business, they just don't have to produce a product), why shouldn't they have a license?
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now I see
I tend to agree on this one, people get mighty touchy about parking when those hosting the meetings every week don't go out of their way to make up for it and proactively make sure no one is being bothered. Especially in high density areas in so cal. Someone had to be bothered enough to sic the city on them, but there's not enough information here to make a qualified interpretation of what exactly the origin was from this article.
The complainer might have been an athiest or from a different religion who objected to home meetings in principle, we don't know. The article never says what the original complaint was except it violated city statutes for business/church in the home. They should comply with that, as much as one man's home is his castle so is his neighbor's home, with the block being their kingdom.
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GarthP2000
My ten will get your one that the initial poster/believer in this WND tripe, after seeing that their "our home fellowships are being taken over by the godless, Stalinist, Obama-led GOVERNMENT" tirade taken apart, ... vanishes into the woodwork, never to be seen again.
Which is typical for folks like that. <_<
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Watered Garden
Absolutely! It is an absolute abomination for anyone to be permitted to meet with friends on a weekly basis in their home, especially to pray, sing hymns and praise God! That pastor and his wife must be made an example! Take them to the nearest soccer stadium, assemble all of their neighbors, hang them, draw and quarter them and parade their disgusting heads around on pikes!
Oh, Wait! This is America. Our Constitution says " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,'" so maybe it should be used to start the fire to burn their worthless carcasses.
I bet if they were Muslim, Jewish or Wiccan, there would be no objections whatsoever. Or if it was a meeting of NAMBLA that would be okay.
I believe you can be Christian and conservative or Christian and liberal, but the knee jerk reaction on GSC to soundly condemn any Christian group that has problems like this astounds me.
And yes, there was one twig of WOW's in Ft. Worth who met in someone's home and were asked not to take up all the parking, but that was eventually resolved. Being a good neighbor is important, but it is a two-way street.
And no one can say whether the pastor and his wife were baldfaced liars about what the county official told them or not, though y'all seem to assume they are.
And by the way, a community group is NOT a business, it's a community group.
WG
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WordWolf
I'll check if I can find this story elsewhere, but first, something about the source of this story,
the "WorldNetDaily"....
WND has a poor history of "fact-checking", often publishing unverified claims and NEVER
checking if they're correct.
How hard would that be?
The people at Snopes- who fact-check as a HOBBY- have done a much better job when
addressing the same issues.
http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2008/wndliar08.html
http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/blog/index.b...th-certificate/
An example of what I mean....
WND made claims about Obama and made silly claims that his birth certificate wasn't produced or was
fraudulent.
They continued making these claims into October 26, 2008 and November 14, 2008.
Check the dates here:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=79174
"Posted: October 26, 2008"
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=...mp;pageId=80931
"Posted: November 14, 2008"
Meanwhile, his birth certificate had been posted on his website as of June 2008,
specifically to end ridiculous claims about its nonexistence.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp
http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg
The only claims left to make, after he did, were to claim the birth certificate posted was a
FORGERY, and that it had information different than the original.
A number of posters here-especially those who ever had to file for a passport- are among the
many US citizens who know full well that the document posted was a legal certification,
a nice, clean retyping of the same official information on the original.
Alteration of federal documents is a crime.
A moment's thought should dismiss the idea he would be unable to run for office but bluff about
it anyway, then forge a document to try to hide it, is ridiculous. Obama's a fairly intelligent,
educated man. He HAS to know the Presidential candidates of the Democratic AND Republican
parties are exposed to intense scrutiny, and people look under every rock for anything scandalous
or problematic. (One candidate got in trouble over HAIRCUTS, and he wasn't even the nominee.)
The dogged insistence on pushing what was already a settled issue showed a disinterest in the TRUTH,
and an interest INSTEAD in maintaining their position.
==============
"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"-
attributed to John Maynard Keynes.
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WordWolf
Actually, my first issue is that the SOLE SOURCE (I just did some checking) of this story is WND.
No LOCAL papers covered it, no REPUTABLE news source has announced something on it.
All the discussion goes from WND- which doesn't check its stories for little things like ACCURACY-
directly into the blogosphere, where much saber-rattling and outrage are added.
I've seen that happen lots of times- when someone was scamming the public.
Notice how even the WND says they don't have one official who said
"I'm aware of this, the policy is X, which is why this is an issue."
I save my outrage for actual ISSUES. I don't have infinite energy to whip up outrage every time someone
else decides to manufacture a moral crisis. I save it up for the REAL crises.
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waysider
OK, I admit.
I am wrong to prejudge this group based on my TWI experience. Maybe they are perfectly sincere and well meaning people. I really don't know, one way or the other, based on the information provided. I'll say this, though. For a couple of years, my TWI "job", so to speak, was to find places where we could hold classes, branch meetings, places for the grand poobah to make his heralded entrance, pubic ex.'s and so on. I always appealed to the potential benefactors sense of civic duty. In other words, I presented our efforts as philanthropic and selfless. I didn't realize it at the time, but that was actually fraudulent. Those meetings that I helped coordinate were nothing short of sales presentations. Hence, they were driven by profit not altruism. We frequently ran into problems that had nothing to do with religious bias and lots to do with common sense. (ie: not enough parking, etc.) In addition, there were several communities in Ohio that prohibited door to door and mall witnessing unless an official vendors license was obtained. Does this have any bearing on the group being discussed here? I simply don't know.
One thing I do know is that the "first century church" met in homes out of necessity, not choice.
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RumRunner
Dude you just having a bad day? I didn't see any references to Stalin, Obama, etc etc. Lighten up and save it for someone like oldiesman.
OK that said - I live in San Diego and couldn't find any reference to this "incident" at all. I checked with the usual news sources as well as an attorney acquaintance. He considered it highly unlikely that the county would try something like that unless occupancy safety limits were being exceeded. Sounds like the usual christian hype we were drilled with about everyone in the world conspiring to get us...of course I hear that from plenty of muslims, American minority groups and more...so it isn't limited to those ephesians addicts.
Edited to add - I've never been to WND - never heard of it - so I visited. I'm just kinda thinking that if you want more alarmist "news" than they publish you mighta just should have stayed in TWI. I perused a few articles - some copied from mainstream media (API etc) probably for credibility and when it fits their agenda - others from who knows what late night talk with jesus - or vic - or sheesh. I bet Rush Treelimbaugh likes that place
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now I see
I checked too, and couldn't find and san diego papers carrying the story, and all the similar articles based theirs on the WND as their source.
Even though we live in America, I happen to live in a gated HOA community, and I don't get to do what I want with my home because there are HOA rules that don't allow for that, unless I want consequences, I can't even park on the street here after midnight, unless I want to be towed!
And, there are city statutes that won't let me do everything I want either, unless I don't mind the consequences.
There are ways to fight city hall, but paying fines for ignoring their statutes is not the smart way.
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socks
Indeed. The wif' and I were talking about this (she's in media p/r) and right now there's nothing more on this story other than the one story in WND.
Probably a "bad neighbor" complaint started it - parking, noise, sumpin'. I'd want to know the background on the whole thing before I got concerned on a wider scale. I have a feeling we won't hear much more about it.
The 'major use permit' deal is regarding zoning. I seriously doubt that the county would make the demands noted in the story - they can't arbitrarily demand a permit be obtained without due process being carried out which would include public hearings regarding the issue at hand. "Expensive" studies aren't demanded for something like this situation unless they're determined necessary during the proces. In short a county "employee" has no responsibility to show up on someone's door step and make an ad hoc determination of any kind.
I would think there's history in the story that isn't being covered in the WND piece. If it's true the couple should take the county to court and blast the county out of the water. What the story reports is a rediculous abuse of law and process but I have my doubts it's the full story.
"Home fellowships" should be allowed, without question. Okay, maybe a couple and as long as no one's getting hurt, it's hardly a dangerous proposition, on face value. Bunch of cars show up every Tuesday night and there's a bunch of racket, neighbors have a right to inquire. It should be a fairly easy situation to resolve. This is America. I don't care why people two thousand years ago met or where as much as I care about what I do and how I do it and if I want to host a get togther of friends and interested people in my home to fellowship around our faith and the bible, I will. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to face off with me and we can talk about it. Nothing more American than getting into a fight over one's faith. Pass the apple pie.
If you're receiving money, "offerings" - that could certainly be construed as a business and god forbid if money changes hands and the government doesn't get a cut. That's going to lead to trouble. They'll be on you like sticky on a stamp until they get their fees or taxes. But it's a trite issue in my mind if it's nothng more than a few people getting together for a few hours for the kinds of things we know as "church in the home".
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mstar1
well--no--I never "soundly condemned" them because they were christian----I dont care if they are christian, muslim, selling tupperware, smoking crack or watching football. It makes no neverminds to me what people do unless they are a nuisance or hazard to their neighbors. Something made the county take notice and require a zoning variance for their activities. Why shouldnt they be required to obey the laws that everyone else has to live by?
I help to organize meetings several times a year for fundraisers and activities to raise money or do other things for the homeless shelter in my town that I am involved with. We keep it a top priority to obey all the laws and keep on a very good footing with the entire community as a matter of not only principle but practicality. Its not even really a question, its what we do. I have had to acquire all sorts of licenses for various activities that we've done to keep it honorable and on the up and up to anyone.
Whats the big deal?
Why would the concept of being good law abiding neighbors and respectful members of the community be so foreign to some 'christian' groups?
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socks
Why would the concept of being good law abiding neighbors and respectful members of the community be so foreign to some 'christian' groups?
Good question mstar. I would expect that, at the least, if not moreso.
Again, we really don't have all the facts. I've found WND to be an unreliable source of information, similar to what Wordwolf posted. IMO they're basically hacks. I'm a Christian in good standing, dues paid and I've got this year's T-Shirt but I don't like being b-s'd and expected to get on board because someone slaps a cross on it.
The information in the article doesn't sound - to me - like it's complete. If it's completely true, as stated with no other significant information to alter the stance the articles takes - it sucks because the county's acting illegally - according to what's stated. It would have no cause, based on what's reported, to demand a permit be needed or applied for. The methods used to determine what's going on there, according to the article, wouldn't stand any test of a legal submission of information or data. So, either San Diego's got a screw loose or sumpin's cranked too tight in the article.
For casual meetings, I think permits and variances are overkill. All "good neighbor" expectations apply.
Funny non-related example. We lived years ago in a home on a street where there was a family that the Dad liked to do neighborhood shindigs. He was kind of a pain in the as s to be honest, but harmless. One year, he went around and said "he" was planning a "street-event" for July 4th and everone was invited to break out the barb-eez and beers and move to the street. It was a pretty long street, end to end. We had plans to go to an event for the day so we declined. And as it turned out about 3/4s of the neighborhood did too. He wanted everyone to end up in his backyard for "games". Well, lots of people had their own plans. Pretty standard, he got pis sy about it, and really tried to get everyone onboard. Real fun guy.
Anyway, about 10 am they blocked off both ends of the street so no traffic could enter or leave, so "everyone" could - I dunno, I guess barbeque in the street or something. I went over and told him we had to leave and he said oh no, you have to stay! It's a block party, it'll be fun!
So I had to move the barriers and drive out. Our neighbors told us the next day it was a mess, someone finally called the police to complain about the traffic barriers and enemies were made that day. I didn't like the guy to begin with so no love was lost. But Iheard the police told him he was nuts. You can't do dat without permits, it's a public street. What if there was a fire?
Good neighbors - good to come by, hard to find sometimes.
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mstar1
so far your read's good on that one
I emailed the author of the article, Drew Zahn of WND and invited him here to see if he wants to clear up the uncertainties in the story or not-- any bets on that One? :)
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GarthP2000
(/me pulls out a hundred)
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RumRunner
Heh - the story just made the local news. Indeed looks like the county overstepped its authority and even its own fee schedule.
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WordWolf
http://www.10news.com/news/19585458/detail.html
Pastor Fights County Over Permit For Home Bible Study
POSTED: 6:40 pm PDT May 27, 2009
UPDATED: 8:49 am PDT May 28, 2009
BONITA, Calif. -- A local pastor said the County has cited him for hosting a weekly Bible study in his home. The County said visitors who drive to those meetings are affecting traffic in the neighborhood.
Pastor David Jones has been hosting weekly Bible studies at his Bonita home during the past five years. About 15 people attend the meetings, he told 10News.
Jones said a visitor to a neighbor's house called the County after a Bible study member hit the visitor’s car while leaving. Shortly after, a county code enforcement officer gave him a citation that said he needed a permit to host the weekly Bible study meetings, he said.
Jones and his attorneys sid he shouldn't have to get a permit for what he does inside his house. "We think it is clearly permissible. We think this is a violation of our constitutional rights," Jones told 10News.
A County spokeswoman says the County is concerned with parking and its impact on the neighborhood.
The two sides met Wednesday but resolved nothing.
Jones said they're scheduled to meet again on June 9.
http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html
Couple: County Trying To Stop Home Bible Studies
POSTED: 5:31 pm PDT May 25, 2009
UPDATED: 1:45 pm PDT May 28, 2009
SAN DIEGO -- A local pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a San Diego County official, who then threatened them with escalating fines if they continued to hold Bible studies in their home, 10News reported.
Attorney Dean Broyles of The Western Center For Law & Policy was shocked with what happened to the pastor and his wife.
Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'"
The county employee notified the couple that the small Bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of County regulations, according to Broyles.
Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit" -- a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars.
"For churches and religious assemblies there's big parking concerns, there's environmental impact concerns when you have hundreds or thousands of people gathering. But this is a different situation, and we believe that the application of the religious assembly principles to this Bible study is certainly misplaced," said Broyles.
News of the case has rapidly spread across Internet blogs and has spurred various reactions.
Broyles said his clients have asked to stay anonymous until they give the county a demand letter that states by enforcing this regulation the county is violating their First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion.
Broyles also said this case has broader implications.
"If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?" Broyles asked.
Broyles and his clients plan to give the County their demand letter this week.
If the County refuses to release the pastor and his wife from obtaining the permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.
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WordWolf
Hm.
ONE local news source, plus FoxNews. (Total, one news source.)
Nobody else has picked the story up.
Normally, you get a FEW local sources to pick something up.....
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RumRunner
Good point. I was interested in that the local station (10News) is not a slog news site but is mainstream and considered pretty representative of any typical large city news station.
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GarthP2000
(It's a corn-spiracy I tell ya. A corn-spiracy, ... setup by the Illuminati!)
Whenever you have a residential get together, and it disrupts neighborhood traffic, ... regardless of what suspicions one might want to fester about the 'gummint' (in its never ending persecution of those of the Christian faith, that is
), you're gonna have to deal with those traffic issues, along with disturbing of the peace issues (a disturbance cause by some of the elderly ladies horrendously off-key singing of their 'Praise the Lawd', ... which is criminal enough! 
:wacko: ).
Perhaps the good TWIG---errr, home fellowship pastor should pass around the horn o' plent--ahh I mean, plate, for the collection to widen the driveway for the people to park in.
But in all seriousness, zoning laws do not a religious persecution make. ... Sowwy!
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waysider
Maybe the judge should tell them to "get their believing up" for a better place to meet.
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leafytwiglet
IT was not the zoning law so much as what the man supposedly said to the homeowners/pastor that turns it into religious persecution... IF this is truly what happened.
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mstar1
hmmm... a car accident, and the county is concerned about traffic hazards----why did WND leave that part out of the initial story?
That sounds a lot more plausible
Thanks for following up WW
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