I think there are people who bear larger burdens than others from their association with The Way, depending on the amount of real trauma suffered, people may take years to process it all, and just because it was in the past doesn't mean they are not still haunted by it, either consciously or subconsciously. Post Traumatic Shock Syndrome is something people who've suffered traumatic experiences go through, talking about it is usually theraputic, and often helps those affected by it to overcome and process these events. Those who didn't suffer such life changing things have a harder time putting themselves into the shoes of those who did, this scenario we've seen played out here many times with the "why can't you just get over it" people, I think people have their own timeline of dealing with TWI memories, and we can't have a one size fits all way of dealing with the ghosts of TWI past.
I just want to encourage you with hope that their can be a perspective and some manner of peace with the past. Things still do crop up for me. Although I remember some things fondly, other have taken years to come to terms with.
It is a process.
I wish you well with all you are trying to deal with.
I want the names of those who decided who was in or out of "fellowship". what a butch of crap.
loved that !!!! (but i don't want to build an ark with anyone ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha)
----
it may not seem like it, but i try really hard not to negate anyone's experiences because of my own, but i do want to speak up about my own. those are the experience that mean something to me lol
i really cared about some people i got close to in the way -- very much so -- however, i am not happy about my experiences with wierwille
Yep, mad at you ecksard. But not the regular anger, the "spiritual anger". Regular angry, you get mad, ang-ery, blood pressure goes up a tad, mind races, fingers twitch, eyebrows furrow. Little veins show up pulsing on the forehead. I shoulda-saids, they musta-meant's start rehersal in the brain. Then you look at your watch and realize in 5 minutes "Lost" is on! On to bigger and better things. (I only check in once in awhile to see what year John Locke's in and to see if they're still lost. It appears they are.)
"Spiritual anger" - whole different deal. "SA's" got legs. To be spiritually angry requires more than a passing irritation and a scratch. It's never about who's right or wrong because it's understood going in - I'm right. That makes the whole deal a lot easier, believe me. "God" has to be involved too of course, deeply in something that He cares deeply about and is majorly bugged about - oddly, it's almost always the same thing I'm bugged about which just goes to show how tight me 'n' the Man are - "like that", all the time. Strategy is required, and actions planned and recorded. Records are the key to spiritual anger resolution. Really really good records. And language skills. Some profanity is usually required too, but not to worry, all manner of cursing is permissible.
I think the 'best times' were when my family & I were 'doing the Word' WITHOUT any interference from twi leadershi*. Unfortunately, that became a rarer and rarer occurence :(
Like a car full of kids smoking pot who run over someone's dog or worse. Those kid's had a good time. And you can never take that away from them.
There's a big problem with your analogy.
The people you're comparing to a car full of kids smoking pot are those of us here who have left twi who had some good times. We didn't have good times doing something bad or illegal, or at the expense of others. I can confidently say that most of your average Wayfers were seeking God, trying to help people, and loving each other with pure motives.
I don't think I'm unique in saying that my good times in twi weren't at the expense of anyone else. I didn't use and abuse people and then turn around today and say, "Too bad if I hurt someone. So what? I had a good time while doing it." That's what your analogy implies.
Speaking just for me, the bad times I had don't negate the good times I had, any more than the good times I had erase the bad times. Nor does the fact that most of my years in twi were good ones disprove or discount anyone else's stories about the bad things they experienced. They don't cancel each other out.
Stuff happened. Some was good, some was bad. It's no different than any other period of my life in that respect.
Sorry, but I'm not going to be made to feel guilty because I had good times in twi. That guilt rests on the shoulders of those who caused the bad times, not on mine.
when i first read bolshevik's analogy i also thought it was not quite right, but then i though about it some more and for me i was able to see that getting high and doing things inadvertently really is analogous to much of what i experienced in the way in that i saw many people really did get high on their "knowledge" and "wisdom" and the "mannies" and the "hevvy revvy" and the "power for abundant living" concepts all of which led to having power over those considered less than. and even if it wasn't done on purpose and even if nothing someone might consider "bad" happened, the very idea that knowledge=power when it comes to the bible and living an interpretation of the bible is quite harmful, and it is written in that very bible what happens when knowledge "puffeth up" and becomes the thing to have. so the analogy works for me when i stand back and recognize that the very concept and the very premise of everything done by and for and of the way international was to sear the conscience with the very hot iron of knowledge=power and then being so high on that power. and even if nobody in particular used that power to do anything particularly "bad" the whole thing in and of itself was "bad" and i feel that the things that happened to people because of the whole thing need to be seen not on an individual basis but as a whole because it was as a whole that things got to the point where rape and suicide and molestation and pedophilia and wife abuse and all the other crapola became institutionalized in the way international via the "lockbox", and it was as a whole that it took decades to even be able to bring these things out into the open and discuss them without fear of retribution from the way international, and that hasn't even stopped yet.
and before anybody takes offense please know that i am not pointing a finger of blame at any individual, and i am not trying to negate or make anyone feel guilty about their individual experiences that were "good", but i am trying to express that being a part of the whole meant that regardless of intentions things had gone to hell in a handbasket and every penny of "abundant sharing" and "tithes", and every report back to hq, and every other thing that was done that kept the machine oiled was also done to keep the secrets whether that was the heart of the individual or not.
I also like Bolshevik's analogy. it really was just like that. the good times involved being in another state, at least after the first couple of years of being "corrected". it was like taking drugs. we had our own drug culture, our own fix, and well, if someone accidentally got hurt while we were getting high, it was because of their own unrenewed mind.
and I don't bother much thinking about the so-called "good times". they were so few, and dampened by the feeling of having to walk on egg-shells lest I fall out of spiritual alignment and harmony.
my good times while an innie were mostly with "unbelievers" toward the end of my twi incarceration. I learned a great deal from them about love and acceptance.
There seems to be a pattern evolving here. It appears that, for those involved in the earlier days, there were more instances of what might be perceived as "good times" and for those involved in later years, there appear to be more instances of what might be perceived as "bad times". Of course, there were really good and bad in both time frames but the ratio seems to be disproportionate. And, there are those for whom the pattern contradicts their entire experience. Kinda reminds me of a line from an old Buffalo Springfield song----"Nobody's right if everybody's wrong."
I think that's really kind of a pivotal time. It was no longer "OK" for the guys to have long hair and come to twig in blue jeans if they were involved in any of the machinery of running things. Likewise for womens apparel, though I'm not qualified to offer specifics in that area. Briefcases had become the order of the day. There was much focus on conspiracies. We were supposed to see ourselves as being involved in something bigger than any of us on an individual level. And, you were supposed to accept that 'the honeymoon phase" might be over and rise above your own personal needs for the betterment of the movement. For me, personally, I think it was a point in time when the bad times started exceeding the good. But, without the ability to foresee the future, I assumed that maybe the problem was with my own perception of things around me. Hind site is 20/20 even if it requires wearing "corrective eyewear".
Even when I was active in TWI, it was not a religious institution that I could wholesale suggest to anyone as being right for them. My belief then was that it wasn't for everyone. Now I think it's really not for anyone.
It is an organization that takes a lot; promises a lot; and gives little or nothing in return in the here and now. Everything that TWI does now is contingent on "The Hope" of the coming kingdom being as TWI states it will be. Based on that premise, people are reluctant to leave the "protection" of the "household" when the household actually does nothing to protect you, nor is there any real guarantee that it will in the coming kingdom.
TWI doesn't just ask a lot of people; it demands it under the threat of diminished rewards in the "coming age". My question was who was TWI to determine my rewards as I stand before the judgment seat? On more than one occasion I had to ask someone if they were going to stand in my place at the judgment seat, and since I knew the answer to that question, I could tell them that I was willing to live with my decision since I alone would have to answer for that decision. While I certainly wasn't spared any of the looks, grumbles, or mutterings, along with a few observations regarding my spirituality or level of possession, I left TWI largely intact. I did spend a few years after that on the fringe of a splinter group, but I eventually found that a complete break from the belief system was what I needed to do.
Sure there were some "good" times, but I would never recommend TWI as an organization that provides much in the way of good.
Dead dogs and pot smokers, definitely not a good analogy.
But to each their own. brainfixed, you're coming from a much different place than I do so I can't really relate. Although in my youth (still of adult age, married and "on my own") I often wondered what the youth of tomorrow would shape up like. As a parent I, we, my wife and I together, taught our children the bible, about Jesus Christ and salvation. They had a great opportunity early on to attend a Baptist Christian elementary school (we were still in the Way and active) and there they were loved and taught as about as good as any child could be anywhere we thought both at school (why we put them in it) and at home. We never had them take the PFAL class or sign up for anything and by the time they were of teenage years we were long gone from the Way. We'd heard of other programs old friends of us had going, but they didn't seem right.
They've been involved with other Christian churches and programs but nothing that requires anything like a lifetime of committment to a single group. We taught them early on and as consistently as we could, to be honest, truthful, loving and to be thoughtful and careful in their decisions. Their understanding of Jesus Christ is very simple and not convoluted by a lot of external influences. They've made mistakes to be sure but that foundation of simply being honest and trustful of God's providence has held steady.
"The good ol' days" are highly overated and have become of mythical proportions when it comes to the Way I think. Likewise the "bad ol' days". That's not speaking of your own experiences or anyone else's specifically but I would say there's no single bucket that holds the entirety of what "everyone" experienced. We can go back and back and reconstruct forever, peeling back the layers of ideas, looking for clues, influences, answers and explanations and it all still ends up a bag of air when it comes to a 25 words or less statement of "good" or "bad". What we have are lives lived and depending on the point from which the perspective is focused (me, you, VPW, the Way Corps, the program this or that, you choose) the details will change. I for one choose the point of what I believe are the consistent factors that run throughout all of those points. Yours may differ and probably will if they don't hold any value for you or the same value that I do.
I guess - it's not a debate or discussion that needs to be "won" is my point. It was what it was, and it is what it is. Taking life on face value, truthfully and honestly is the only place to start. From there each of us can build something worthwhile. We may find we're wrong, in the end but it will have been honest and truthful, as best we could be.
I never leave out the reality I've learned throughout it all, and that is that there is indeed "a God" and that there was and is indeed a "Jesus Christ". And there's me and a clear perception of the power of love. I'm as sure of those things as I am this keyboard I'm tapping out on. Knowing that I can only encourage each person to see life through their own eyes, minds and bodies because I believe the truths of life will reveal themselves from any honestly viewed point. When they're hidden - there's no good line of sight, that tells me what I need to know. I'm always interested in what others "see" as it has the likelihood of adding to my understanding, in one way or another. I encourage the same for others.
you guys are giving me alot to think about and i like that a whole lot because it helps me to understand and work out things for my own brain to heal. i hope that i don't come off as trying to "win" anything here, but i hope i come off as trying to reach inside of myself and bring out the things i've never been able to say or even admit thinking before now, and the responses help me to do that and maybe it all might help somebody else too.
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Tzaia
There were no "good" times. There were a few good people, but even my first visit - a branch meeting - was not what I would call "good". Overwhelming - yes. I was told it would cost at least a dollar
Linda Z
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, RumRunner. Without naming names, what are you talking about? You can give examples of behavior/types of posts without naming names. I'm really trying to und
potato
I'm glad vpw is dead.
now I see
I think there are people who bear larger burdens than others from their association with The Way, depending on the amount of real trauma suffered, people may take years to process it all, and just because it was in the past doesn't mean they are not still haunted by it, either consciously or subconsciously. Post Traumatic Shock Syndrome is something people who've suffered traumatic experiences go through, talking about it is usually theraputic, and often helps those affected by it to overcome and process these events. Those who didn't suffer such life changing things have a harder time putting themselves into the shoes of those who did, this scenario we've seen played out here many times with the "why can't you just get over it" people, I think people have their own timeline of dealing with TWI memories, and we can't have a one size fits all way of dealing with the ghosts of TWI past.
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newlife
For me, I say, "It was the Best of Times, and the Worst of Times".
Some of the times were the best I've ever had and some of them were the worst I ever had....
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geisha779
brainfixed,
I just want to encourage you with hope that their can be a perspective and some manner of peace with the past. Things still do crop up for me. Although I remember some things fondly, other have taken years to come to terms with.
It is a process.
I wish you well with all you are trying to deal with.
Take Care!!
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excathedra
these few posts have been wonderful, thank you
hey pond
loved that !!!! (but i don't want to build an ark with anyone ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha)
----
it may not seem like it, but i try really hard not to negate anyone's experiences because of my own, but i do want to speak up about my own. those are the experience that mean something to me lol
i really cared about some people i got close to in the way -- very much so -- however, i am not happy about my experiences with wierwille
and sometimes well it's just tough
also, i care -- not careD
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socks
Yep, mad at you ecksard. But not the regular anger, the "spiritual anger". Regular angry, you get mad, ang-ery, blood pressure goes up a tad, mind races, fingers twitch, eyebrows furrow. Little veins show up pulsing on the forehead. I shoulda-saids, they musta-meant's start rehersal in the brain. Then you look at your watch and realize in 5 minutes "Lost" is on! On to bigger and better things. (I only check in once in awhile to see what year John Locke's in and to see if they're still lost. It appears they are.)
"Spiritual anger" - whole different deal. "SA's" got legs. To be spiritually angry requires more than a passing irritation and a scratch. It's never about who's right or wrong because it's understood going in - I'm right. That makes the whole deal a lot easier, believe me. "God" has to be involved too of course, deeply in something that He cares deeply about and is majorly bugged about - oddly, it's almost always the same thing I'm bugged about which just goes to show how tight me 'n' the Man are - "like that", all the time. Strategy is required, and actions planned and recorded. Records are the key to spiritual anger resolution. Really really good records. And language skills. Some profanity is usually required too, but not to worry, all manner of cursing is permissible.
:blink:
Actually, nope.
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Bolshevik
I still think focusing on the good times is as unproductive as focusing on the bad.
Like a car full of kids smoking pot who run over someone's dog or worse. Those kid's had a good time. And you can never take that away from them.
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Big Ben
I think the 'best times' were when my family & I were 'doing the Word' WITHOUT any interference from twi leadershi*. Unfortunately, that became a rarer and rarer occurence :(
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excathedra
((((( socksard ))))))
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GeorgeStGeorge
Silly example. Smoking pot and teaching others of God's love are NOT equivalent.
George
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brainfixed
teaching people doctrines and commandments of the way international and teaching others of god's love are NOT equivalent.
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Linda Z
Bolshevik said:
There's a big problem with your analogy.
The people you're comparing to a car full of kids smoking pot are those of us here who have left twi who had some good times. We didn't have good times doing something bad or illegal, or at the expense of others. I can confidently say that most of your average Wayfers were seeking God, trying to help people, and loving each other with pure motives.
I don't think I'm unique in saying that my good times in twi weren't at the expense of anyone else. I didn't use and abuse people and then turn around today and say, "Too bad if I hurt someone. So what? I had a good time while doing it." That's what your analogy implies.
Speaking just for me, the bad times I had don't negate the good times I had, any more than the good times I had erase the bad times. Nor does the fact that most of my years in twi were good ones disprove or discount anyone else's stories about the bad things they experienced. They don't cancel each other out.
Stuff happened. Some was good, some was bad. It's no different than any other period of my life in that respect.
Sorry, but I'm not going to be made to feel guilty because I had good times in twi. That guilt rests on the shoulders of those who caused the bad times, not on mine.
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coolchef
linda great answer!!!
we made our good times and had plenty of them
we did not cause the bad times
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brainfixed
when i first read bolshevik's analogy i also thought it was not quite right, but then i though about it some more and for me i was able to see that getting high and doing things inadvertently really is analogous to much of what i experienced in the way in that i saw many people really did get high on their "knowledge" and "wisdom" and the "mannies" and the "hevvy revvy" and the "power for abundant living" concepts all of which led to having power over those considered less than. and even if it wasn't done on purpose and even if nothing someone might consider "bad" happened, the very idea that knowledge=power when it comes to the bible and living an interpretation of the bible is quite harmful, and it is written in that very bible what happens when knowledge "puffeth up" and becomes the thing to have. so the analogy works for me when i stand back and recognize that the very concept and the very premise of everything done by and for and of the way international was to sear the conscience with the very hot iron of knowledge=power and then being so high on that power. and even if nobody in particular used that power to do anything particularly "bad" the whole thing in and of itself was "bad" and i feel that the things that happened to people because of the whole thing need to be seen not on an individual basis but as a whole because it was as a whole that things got to the point where rape and suicide and molestation and pedophilia and wife abuse and all the other crapola became institutionalized in the way international via the "lockbox", and it was as a whole that it took decades to even be able to bring these things out into the open and discuss them without fear of retribution from the way international, and that hasn't even stopped yet.
and before anybody takes offense please know that i am not pointing a finger of blame at any individual, and i am not trying to negate or make anyone feel guilty about their individual experiences that were "good", but i am trying to express that being a part of the whole meant that regardless of intentions things had gone to hell in a handbasket and every penny of "abundant sharing" and "tithes", and every report back to hq, and every other thing that was done that kept the machine oiled was also done to keep the secrets whether that was the heart of the individual or not.
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excathedra
i'm with you fixedbrain
not sure what you mean, george
my example would be being taught to screw the man of god was god's will to heal is NOT equivalent to God's love
i think i would rather have smoked pot :)
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potato
I also like Bolshevik's analogy. it really was just like that. the good times involved being in another state, at least after the first couple of years of being "corrected". it was like taking drugs. we had our own drug culture, our own fix, and well, if someone accidentally got hurt while we were getting high, it was because of their own unrenewed mind.
and I don't bother much thinking about the so-called "good times". they were so few, and dampened by the feeling of having to walk on egg-shells lest I fall out of spiritual alignment and harmony.
my good times while an innie were mostly with "unbelievers" toward the end of my twi incarceration. I learned a great deal from them about love and acceptance.
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waysider
There seems to be a pattern evolving here. It appears that, for those involved in the earlier days, there were more instances of what might be perceived as "good times" and for those involved in later years, there appear to be more instances of what might be perceived as "bad times". Of course, there were really good and bad in both time frames but the ratio seems to be disproportionate. And, there are those for whom the pattern contradicts their entire experience. Kinda reminds me of a line from an old Buffalo Springfield song----"Nobody's right if everybody's wrong."
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excathedra
would 1974/5 be old days or new days ?
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waysider
I think that's really kind of a pivotal time. It was no longer "OK" for the guys to have long hair and come to twig in blue jeans if they were involved in any of the machinery of running things. Likewise for womens apparel, though I'm not qualified to offer specifics in that area. Briefcases had become the order of the day. There was much focus on conspiracies. We were supposed to see ourselves as being involved in something bigger than any of us on an individual level. And, you were supposed to accept that 'the honeymoon phase" might be over and rise above your own personal needs for the betterment of the movement. For me, personally, I think it was a point in time when the bad times started exceeding the good. But, without the ability to foresee the future, I assumed that maybe the problem was with my own perception of things around me. Hind site is 20/20 even if it requires wearing "corrective eyewear".
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Tzaia
Brainfixed,
Even when I was active in TWI, it was not a religious institution that I could wholesale suggest to anyone as being right for them. My belief then was that it wasn't for everyone. Now I think it's really not for anyone.
It is an organization that takes a lot; promises a lot; and gives little or nothing in return in the here and now. Everything that TWI does now is contingent on "The Hope" of the coming kingdom being as TWI states it will be. Based on that premise, people are reluctant to leave the "protection" of the "household" when the household actually does nothing to protect you, nor is there any real guarantee that it will in the coming kingdom.
TWI doesn't just ask a lot of people; it demands it under the threat of diminished rewards in the "coming age". My question was who was TWI to determine my rewards as I stand before the judgment seat? On more than one occasion I had to ask someone if they were going to stand in my place at the judgment seat, and since I knew the answer to that question, I could tell them that I was willing to live with my decision since I alone would have to answer for that decision. While I certainly wasn't spared any of the looks, grumbles, or mutterings, along with a few observations regarding my spirituality or level of possession, I left TWI largely intact. I did spend a few years after that on the fringe of a splinter group, but I eventually found that a complete break from the belief system was what I needed to do.
Sure there were some "good" times, but I would never recommend TWI as an organization that provides much in the way of good.
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socks
Dead dogs and pot smokers, definitely not a good analogy.
But to each their own. brainfixed, you're coming from a much different place than I do so I can't really relate. Although in my youth (still of adult age, married and "on my own") I often wondered what the youth of tomorrow would shape up like. As a parent I, we, my wife and I together, taught our children the bible, about Jesus Christ and salvation. They had a great opportunity early on to attend a Baptist Christian elementary school (we were still in the Way and active) and there they were loved and taught as about as good as any child could be anywhere we thought both at school (why we put them in it) and at home. We never had them take the PFAL class or sign up for anything and by the time they were of teenage years we were long gone from the Way. We'd heard of other programs old friends of us had going, but they didn't seem right.
They've been involved with other Christian churches and programs but nothing that requires anything like a lifetime of committment to a single group. We taught them early on and as consistently as we could, to be honest, truthful, loving and to be thoughtful and careful in their decisions. Their understanding of Jesus Christ is very simple and not convoluted by a lot of external influences. They've made mistakes to be sure but that foundation of simply being honest and trustful of God's providence has held steady.
"The good ol' days" are highly overated and have become of mythical proportions when it comes to the Way I think. Likewise the "bad ol' days". That's not speaking of your own experiences or anyone else's specifically but I would say there's no single bucket that holds the entirety of what "everyone" experienced. We can go back and back and reconstruct forever, peeling back the layers of ideas, looking for clues, influences, answers and explanations and it all still ends up a bag of air when it comes to a 25 words or less statement of "good" or "bad". What we have are lives lived and depending on the point from which the perspective is focused (me, you, VPW, the Way Corps, the program this or that, you choose) the details will change. I for one choose the point of what I believe are the consistent factors that run throughout all of those points. Yours may differ and probably will if they don't hold any value for you or the same value that I do.
I guess - it's not a debate or discussion that needs to be "won" is my point. It was what it was, and it is what it is. Taking life on face value, truthfully and honestly is the only place to start. From there each of us can build something worthwhile. We may find we're wrong, in the end but it will have been honest and truthful, as best we could be.
I never leave out the reality I've learned throughout it all, and that is that there is indeed "a God" and that there was and is indeed a "Jesus Christ". And there's me and a clear perception of the power of love. I'm as sure of those things as I am this keyboard I'm tapping out on. Knowing that I can only encourage each person to see life through their own eyes, minds and bodies because I believe the truths of life will reveal themselves from any honestly viewed point. When they're hidden - there's no good line of sight, that tells me what I need to know. I'm always interested in what others "see" as it has the likelihood of adding to my understanding, in one way or another. I encourage the same for others.
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excathedra
i'm not really looking to peel back, investigate, etc.
in 25 words or less
veepee tried to destroy me. he didn't succeed, and i'm a true lover of god and christ
--
ps. i also put my kid in a wonderful bible pre-k thing
i wasn't in the way then, so i don't know what that means
---
one more thing, i have no doubt that what he did to me was bad
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brainfixed
you guys are giving me alot to think about and i like that a whole lot because it helps me to understand and work out things for my own brain to heal. i hope that i don't come off as trying to "win" anything here, but i hope i come off as trying to reach inside of myself and bring out the things i've never been able to say or even admit thinking before now, and the responses help me to do that and maybe it all might help somebody else too.
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excathedra
but i already knew there was a god and christ, so i don't know about that part
you're fine brain
i'm not trying to win anything either. i'm talking as honestly here as i would at my kitchen table
as i'm sure sockness and others are
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Linda Z
Tzaia said:
That is it in a nutshell for me!
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