like someone somewhere is in a dark room saying "we're gonna make people have a good time with drugs and alcohol so they'll keep doin 'em. he he he heeee".
Now I'm wondering what experience is. Is it just an opinion? A POV? A memory? . . .
Now Sun Young Bolsh - you must read an ancient philosopher for the meaning of experience - so old that it dates back to 1960 CE - R.D. Lang, "The Politics of Experience"
Thanks for the correction on the last name spelling...at my age I drop a letter hear or there - you know that downward path - add a letter, lose a letter, change a letter. Like the famous line of jesus on the cross, Limey, limey, levis ain't no grog for me.
i think why i have a hard time with the father in the word is because i was looking for rescue from past and thought the was different than past. does that make sense? gave him the history, etc., and trusted, but of course mistaken
--
changing subject
we were so poor. the other father in the word (priest) bought little brothers bicycles and stereos, let them drive his car when they were under age, drink, etc.
even came to bail them out and speak on their behalf when they became teens getting in trouble (drinking, driving)
those good times didn't seem to help them from years of drugs, going to dark places for (i can't say -- but it relates to what he had them do when they were little altar boys), and years and years of broken hearts, broken marriages, broken souls....
i'm not saying this was the way, but it's all too similar for me -- and wierwille knew all that too
i think why i have a hard time with the father in the word is because i was looking for rescue from past and thought the was different than past. does that make sense? gave him the history, etc., and trusted, but of course mistaken
--
changing subject
we were so poor. the other father in the word (priest) bought little brothers bicycles and stereos, let them drive his car when they were under age, drink, etc.
even came to bail them out and speak on their behalf when they became teens getting in trouble (drinking, driving)
those good times didn't seem to help them from years of drugs, going to dark places for (i can't say -- but it relates to what he had them do when they were little altar boys), and years and years of broken hearts, broken marriages, broken souls....
i'm not saying this was the way, but it's all too similar for me -- and wierwille knew all that too
Hi Exie... I totally understand. IT took me a long time to forgive Step father for his crap and he was not a christian when it happened
A man of God is different it is the fact that they claim to be working for God and then do something so heinous so far from what God wants for us.
VP was a %^$^$^# for what he did to you and countless others.
We hold (or should hold) judges to a higher standard, teachers, coaches, athletes, anyone who works with youth/children or the public trust, a priest or minister is in the same category, they are supposed to operate under a higher standard.
Anyone who doesn't, should bear the burdon of the consequences when he/she betrays the public trust.
Anyone who excuses the actions of such person enables them and should receive the same indictments.
We hold (or should hold) judges to a higher standard, teachers, coaches, athletes, anyone who works with youth/children or the public trust, a priest or minister is in the same category, they are supposed to operate under a higher standard.
Anyone who doesn't, should bear the burdon of the consequences when he/she betrays the public trust.
Anyone who excuses the actions of such person enables them and should receive the same indictments.
Absolutely true. But, I don't think VP was a minister. I believe he was a cult leader. . . .an actual con man. Outside our little fold. . . he never really had the public trust. TWI is a closed group, most cults are closed to public scrutiny and accountability.
Given the dynamics on this board. . . and the wide range of recovering members. . . it is nearly impossible to gain a consensus as to what TWI actually is. . . a ministry. . . a religious organization. . . a christian group. . . or a cult. Even the defenition of cult is heatedly debated, ironically, often with criterea learned and established from within the cult.
When someone here defends VP, excuses, or glosses over his actions. . . it is frustrating and insulting to the victims. It is a painful dynamic.
Having regained my sense of justice and the ability to determine right from wrong. . . I am able to make the distinction.
One of the things a cult will do is lead one away from their natural inclinations.
Enviroment plays a huge role in personality and behavior. . . "In other words, given a powerful and engaging situation, people often react to it in a uniformly similar fashion, regardless of personality differences." This personality change. . . becomes firmly established in some people.
I believe the reason some people (years later) retain many of the teachings and perceptions of TWI and the myopic vision which allows them to gloss over such actions. . . is the same reason most fell for it in the first place.
Easy answers. A cookie cutter solution for the myriad of troubles life throws at us. That is what PFAL and TWI initially offered to us. After that, it was a gradual persuasion with this foundation and the slow reconstruction of our "understanding." Some people still feel that TWI taught them the answers they would never have gotten in life. The "truth". The meaning of it all. Some will still defend this reconstruction. . . as truth. Bitterly defend it.
When the one who taught them this. . . is exposed and challenged. . .their whole identity is challenged. Having been conditioned to prioritize human compassion and empathy towards the bottom of the totem pole. . . it never shocks me some lash out and defend this man. I am usually appalled, but my compassion extends to them as well.
When I was a little girl and someone asked me what I wanted to do when I grew up. . . being in an abusive and very destructive cult. . . was never my answer. People don't join cults. . . they are manipulated and persuaded into them.
Only 5-6% of people who get into cults have psych problems. Cults don't want these people, they want intellegent and functioning individuals. Productive people. Anyone can fall into a group like TWI. It usually happens during a transition period, a low point. . . lonliness can be a factor. There are all kinds of reasons.
Many of us go right back to what we were doing before TWI. . . some of us go screaming into the extreme opposite direction. . . and some of remain committed to the solutions we think we found. . . while recognizing SOME form of wrong doing. You hear it here alot. "It was messed up, but they still taught us the word blah blah blah".
As angry as that gets me. . . as frustrated. . . as evil as it is to defend such a man. . . I also recognize that these people are part of TWI's most tragic legacy. People who don't regain their true self. . . or that natural sense of right and wrong we were persuaded away from.
"In other words, given a powerful and engaging situation, people often react to it in a uniformly similar fashion, regardless of personality differences."
I just googled part of the sentence in quotes and I found the page.
This came from a little more than halfway down the page, under the question heading "What kinds of people join cults? What's wrong with them?"
For the most part, normal, average people join cults--people like you and me. Research indicates that approximately two-thirds of cult members are psychologically healthy people that come from normal families. The remaining third are likely to have depressive symptoms, usually related to a personal loss--perhaps a death in the family, a failed romantic relationship, or career troubles. Only 5 to 6 percent of cult members demonstrate major psychological problems prior to joining a cult (Singer, 1995). Cults don't want, and don't recruit, people with psychological problems or physical handicaps--they represent a loss rather than a gain of cult-oriented productivity. Cults prefer intelligent, productive individuals who are able to contribute money and talent to "the cause," whatever it may be (Hassan, 198-).
The part geisha quoted was a little further on down the page.
That is exactly what I was about to do. It is something I took notes from awhile ago, but would NEVER find again.
Thanks.
brainfixed,
It might be an interesting study for you. . . the why's and wherefore's of cults. Steve Hassan has so much info out there. An ex-moonie.
The psychology behind them. Sanger. . . also important research.
There has been a distinction made in this thread that is not really fair IMO. . . and that is the issue of choice vs forced. I don't think it is all that cut and dried. Which is why I balk at corporate responsibilty.
It was VP's brainchild. . . he went after a certain group. . . he took advantage of social unrest and the counterculture. . . he knew what he was doing. Check out what he was ALSO looking for when he went to CA.
also here is what came before that particular quote:
"Behavior is a function of both a person's personality and her situation (those of you who've taken psychology may recall the classic Lewinian formulation B=f[P,E] which indicates that behavior is a function of, or an interaction of, both the personality and the environment). One of social psychology's great discoveries has been the overwhelming influence that the environment--the immediate situation--exerts on people's behavior. Yet, when assigning cause, observers will usually attribute cause to a person's personality, not the constraints of the environment.
This is such a persistent and reliable human bias--to assign cause to the person rather than to the environment--that it has been given the name of "the fundamental attribution error."
The fact is, the environment can easily dominate personality-based differences among people, making person differences a relatively minor variable in the equation."
((((Excathedra)))) I can't think of anything cool to say or express how much I think of you. Courage, honesty, strength & compassion resonate from your every post! Thanks for being here.
I left in 86 mostly for intellectual reasons – in the aftermath of Patriarch, my mind was in hot pursuit of some answers – questions kept leading to more questions – and a growing self-confidence in my own ability to think. Since I've joined Grease Spot – I've developed a gut-wrenching disgust for all things TWI for moral reasons!
I talked about not using broad brush strokes to describe my experience. But that's not to say I always deal with the mental baggage the same way. Over the years I think I've alternated between using Atomic Bombs and Smart Bombs. Sometimes I wanted to lash out and blow it all away – drop the A-Bomb - leave nothing standing! Other times I'd focus a Smart Bomb to zero in on a specific enemy stronghold. What to use when? …dunno…Maybe it's how I feel at the time.
What VP taught initially was a subtle departure from historic Christianity. . . it eventually evolved into a radical embracing of metaphysics, he knew what he was doing.
He knew what attracted people. He came out of that time when people were turning in droves to the Word of Faith movement.
I bet, at times, even he was surprised by how far he could push the envelope.
He was not stupid. He was a sociopath. . . .
Singer not Sanger. . . sorry. . . . Sanger was Planned Parenthood.
not to worry t-bone but thanks for worrying because it shows your care. a couple of things i've learned is one that this is not like group therapy here and two it's not like friends sitting around the living room or the dinner table so being here is more like standing on the street corner and speaking your mind and that means you get what you get and don't get offended.
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Tzaia
There were no "good" times. There were a few good people, but even my first visit - a branch meeting - was not what I would call "good". Overwhelming - yes. I was told it would cost at least a dollar
Linda Z
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, RumRunner. Without naming names, what are you talking about? You can give examples of behavior/types of posts without naming names. I'm really trying to und
potato
I'm glad vpw is dead.
Bolshevik
like someone somewhere is in a dark room saying "we're gonna make people have a good time with drugs and alcohol so they'll keep doin 'em. he he he heeee".
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Bolshevik
Now I'm wondering what experience is. Is it just an opinion? A POV? A memory? . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience
it's related to "experiment" somehow. ha!
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RumRunner
Now Sun Young Bolsh - you must read an ancient philosopher for the meaning of experience - so old that it dates back to 1960 CE - R.D. Lang, "The Politics of Experience"
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Bolshevik
ordered it. It's on its way.
God bless libraries.
"Laing"
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RumRunner
Thanks for the correction on the last name spelling...at my age I drop a letter hear or there - you know that downward path - add a letter, lose a letter, change a letter. Like the famous line of jesus on the cross, Limey, limey, levis ain't no grog for me.
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Bolshevik
don't thank me, thank the magical powers of google scholar.
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doojable
OH now Bolsh.. don't read that....!
...you'll get possessed!
*wink wink*
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RumRunner
Ahh the good times and how to handle the true VPWites
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it9kpZHXhxI...feature=related
WARNING - R Rated - not for kids, the weak of heart, jesus lovers, or as yet cornfield cultists...
How to turn down a PFAL witnesser!!! Honest - this will work
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now I see
Good times.
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excathedra
hi everyone, catching up here
cheranne, i couldn't get your youtube to work
thanks now i see and all
-- could be off topic
but i know my mom was a victim and saw no way out in her situation (in her mind and at that time) -- not wayfer stuff
i forgive her
i think i even forgive the father and others in the family situation
still working on the father in the word
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excathedra
i think why i have a hard time with the father in the word is because i was looking for rescue from past and thought the was different than past. does that make sense? gave him the history, etc., and trusted, but of course mistaken
--
changing subject
we were so poor. the other father in the word (priest) bought little brothers bicycles and stereos, let them drive his car when they were under age, drink, etc.
even came to bail them out and speak on their behalf when they became teens getting in trouble (drinking, driving)
those good times didn't seem to help them from years of drugs, going to dark places for (i can't say -- but it relates to what he had them do when they were little altar boys), and years and years of broken hearts, broken marriages, broken souls....
i'm not saying this was the way, but it's all too similar for me -- and wierwille knew all that too
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leafytwiglet
Hi Exie... I totally understand. IT took me a long time to forgive Step father for his crap and he was not a christian when it happened
A man of God is different it is the fact that they claim to be working for God and then do something so heinous so far from what God wants for us.
VP was a %^$^$^# for what he did to you and countless others.
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potato
I'm glad vpw is dead.
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chockfull
a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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leafytwiglet
A bastard pretending to care for God's Flock!
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now I see
We hold (or should hold) judges to a higher standard, teachers, coaches, athletes, anyone who works with youth/children or the public trust, a priest or minister is in the same category, they are supposed to operate under a higher standard.
Anyone who doesn't, should bear the burdon of the consequences when he/she betrays the public trust.
Anyone who excuses the actions of such person enables them and should receive the same indictments.
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geisha779
Absolutely true. But, I don't think VP was a minister. I believe he was a cult leader. . . .an actual con man. Outside our little fold. . . he never really had the public trust. TWI is a closed group, most cults are closed to public scrutiny and accountability.
Given the dynamics on this board. . . and the wide range of recovering members. . . it is nearly impossible to gain a consensus as to what TWI actually is. . . a ministry. . . a religious organization. . . a christian group. . . or a cult. Even the defenition of cult is heatedly debated, ironically, often with criterea learned and established from within the cult.
When someone here defends VP, excuses, or glosses over his actions. . . it is frustrating and insulting to the victims. It is a painful dynamic.
Having regained my sense of justice and the ability to determine right from wrong. . . I am able to make the distinction.
One of the things a cult will do is lead one away from their natural inclinations.
Enviroment plays a huge role in personality and behavior. . . "In other words, given a powerful and engaging situation, people often react to it in a uniformly similar fashion, regardless of personality differences." This personality change. . . becomes firmly established in some people.
I believe the reason some people (years later) retain many of the teachings and perceptions of TWI and the myopic vision which allows them to gloss over such actions. . . is the same reason most fell for it in the first place.
Easy answers. A cookie cutter solution for the myriad of troubles life throws at us. That is what PFAL and TWI initially offered to us. After that, it was a gradual persuasion with this foundation and the slow reconstruction of our "understanding." Some people still feel that TWI taught them the answers they would never have gotten in life. The "truth". The meaning of it all. Some will still defend this reconstruction. . . as truth. Bitterly defend it.
When the one who taught them this. . . is exposed and challenged. . .their whole identity is challenged. Having been conditioned to prioritize human compassion and empathy towards the bottom of the totem pole. . . it never shocks me some lash out and defend this man. I am usually appalled, but my compassion extends to them as well.
When I was a little girl and someone asked me what I wanted to do when I grew up. . . being in an abusive and very destructive cult. . . was never my answer. People don't join cults. . . they are manipulated and persuaded into them.
Only 5-6% of people who get into cults have psych problems. Cults don't want these people, they want intellegent and functioning individuals. Productive people. Anyone can fall into a group like TWI. It usually happens during a transition period, a low point. . . lonliness can be a factor. There are all kinds of reasons.
Many of us go right back to what we were doing before TWI. . . some of us go screaming into the extreme opposite direction. . . and some of remain committed to the solutions we think we found. . . while recognizing SOME form of wrong doing. You hear it here alot. "It was messed up, but they still taught us the word blah blah blah".
As angry as that gets me. . . as frustrated. . . as evil as it is to defend such a man. . . I also recognize that these people are part of TWI's most tragic legacy. People who don't regain their true self. . . or that natural sense of right and wrong we were persuaded away from.
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brainfixed
what is the quote reference here?
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doojable
Hope you don't mind, geisha....
http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?...&pst=116107
I just googled part of the sentence in quotes and I found the page.
This came from a little more than halfway down the page, under the question heading "What kinds of people join cults? What's wrong with them?"
The part geisha quoted was a little further on down the page.
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geisha779
That is exactly what I was about to do. It is something I took notes from awhile ago, but would NEVER find again.
Thanks.
brainfixed,
It might be an interesting study for you. . . the why's and wherefore's of cults. Steve Hassan has so much info out there. An ex-moonie.
The psychology behind them. Sanger. . . also important research.
There has been a distinction made in this thread that is not really fair IMO. . . and that is the issue of choice vs forced. I don't think it is all that cut and dried. Which is why I balk at corporate responsibilty.
It was VP's brainchild. . . he went after a certain group. . . he took advantage of social unrest and the counterculture. . . he knew what he was doing. Check out what he was ALSO looking for when he went to CA.
Baaaaaaad man.
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brainfixed
thank you doojable.
also here is what came before that particular quote:
"Behavior is a function of both a person's personality and her situation (those of you who've taken psychology may recall the classic Lewinian formulation B=f[P,E] which indicates that behavior is a function of, or an interaction of, both the personality and the environment). One of social psychology's great discoveries has been the overwhelming influence that the environment--the immediate situation--exerts on people's behavior. Yet, when assigning cause, observers will usually attribute cause to a person's personality, not the constraints of the environment.
This is such a persistent and reliable human bias--to assign cause to the person rather than to the environment--that it has been given the name of "the fundamental attribution error."
The fact is, the environment can easily dominate personality-based differences among people, making person differences a relatively minor variable in the equation."
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T-Bone
((((Excathedra)))) I can't think of anything cool to say or express how much I think of you. Courage, honesty, strength & compassion resonate from your every post! Thanks for being here.
((((Brainfixed)))) I hope you don't think I'm an a$$hole for the way I disagreed with you on a few things. It's too bad Grease Spot is only a virtual café. So much is lost without face-to-face dialog. I feel frustrated most of the time when I post and think I come off as stuffy & clinical….another thing is to realize where I'm coming from – I'm a guy, former ignorant facilitator and one who never knew of nor experienced the physical abuse or sexual molestation mentioned here. My losses are miniscule by comparison – wasted time, financial setbacks, bad decisions in education & career, etc…I can't even imagine being in your shoes – I'd probably lose them after shoving them so far up somebody's bu++.
I left in 86 mostly for intellectual reasons – in the aftermath of Patriarch, my mind was in hot pursuit of some answers – questions kept leading to more questions – and a growing self-confidence in my own ability to think. Since I've joined Grease Spot – I've developed a gut-wrenching disgust for all things TWI for moral reasons!
I talked about not using broad brush strokes to describe my experience. But that's not to say I always deal with the mental baggage the same way. Over the years I think I've alternated between using Atomic Bombs and Smart Bombs. Sometimes I wanted to lash out and blow it all away – drop the A-Bomb - leave nothing standing! Other times I'd focus a Smart Bomb to zero in on a specific enemy stronghold. What to use when? …dunno…Maybe it's how I feel at the time.
Now I See & Geisha, great posts!!!
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geisha779
What VP taught initially was a subtle departure from historic Christianity. . . it eventually evolved into a radical embracing of metaphysics, he knew what he was doing.
He knew what attracted people. He came out of that time when people were turning in droves to the Word of Faith movement.
I bet, at times, even he was surprised by how far he could push the envelope.
He was not stupid. He was a sociopath. . . .
Singer not Sanger. . . sorry. . . . Sanger was Planned Parenthood.
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brainfixed
not to worry t-bone but thanks for worrying because it shows your care. a couple of things i've learned is one that this is not like group therapy here and two it's not like friends sitting around the living room or the dinner table so being here is more like standing on the street corner and speaking your mind and that means you get what you get and don't get offended.
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