Yeah, I know of an early Corps couple whose teenage daughter LCM helped himself to, it's too bad they believed the hype, they shoulda been smarter. Â They were even campus coordinators, they probably made bad decisions though, especially the ones that allowed their daughter to be in proximity to LCM, even though they lived three hours apart.
The whole premise of the original post by brainfixed, while interesting and accurate when speaking of a one on one relationship that involves abuse. . . . is too cut and dried to relate to the myriad of relationships and events of years in our TWI time. As doojable pointed out. . . . . . way too many actors to break it down so neatly.
Were there good people in TWI? You bet. I married one. 20 plus years later, I can say with confidence. . .he is a good person. . . . it is a genuine relationship. It was forged in TWI. Do we still hold the same beliefs. . . HELL no! We were fortunate. . . we changed together. Others less so.
Is Kimberly a good person? You bet. Was she a good person in TWI. . . you bet. Was her sister a good person. . . Yep. Was her ex. . . Yep. Were the good times they shared with hubby a sham. . . nope. . .they all genuinely cared for each other. He has cared about them for years, thought of them, spoke of them, and hoped the best for them. . . he STILL loves them and cares about their lives and well-being.
Did I think MusicalLee who posts here on occasion a good person in TWI? No, I remember her and her mother as EXCEPTIONAL people. Actually, they stand out in my memories beyond TWI as some of the FINEST people I have known. Salt of the earth. . . down right good.
Did VP or LCM or the BOT use the good times we had with these people to keep us involved. I really don't think so. . . I think it was just certain people clicked.
As Rumrunner so aptly pointed out. . . there were enough BAD people and BAD times. . . even from the get-go to blow that premise out of the water.
In certain circles, twigs and places. . . would you leave cash, any jewelry or prescription meds laying around? NO!!! Why? Your "brother" or "sister" in CHRIST would steal them from you. "Good times".
Because we laughed and had fun when I taught musicalee to drive a stick-shift. . . or when we shopped. . .am I responsible for the abuse of others. No. . . and I didn't abuse her. . . I let her challenge my transmission. It was the only good car I owned in TWI. :(
As a Christian. . . I confess a savior. . . HE takes on the sins of others. . . not me. In my faith. . . being a flawed human . . . is a given. Guilt and shame. . . bad things. . .
VP and his ilk???
Well, there is a whole special category reserved just for them. . . check it out.
If I am going to make wholesale judgements on an entire group of people. . . I need to be sure I have the right bad guys. How can I possibly lay guilt and culpability at the feet of people who were conned just like me. Kinda goes against that whole love thy neighbor as thyself.. . . judge not. . . . thingy I subscribe to.
If you haven't forgiven yourself. . . you might be tempted to take on the added burden of guilt belonging to another.. . . .I get that. . . But, give yourself a break. . . as T-bone said. . .
I say let the actual abusers bear their own guilt and shame. . . they have the option of repentance and forgivness. . . I am not going to hold my breath though. . . only certain shades of blue suit me. . . I would be turning blue waiting on that event.
The injustice that brainfixed, ex, and many of us endured. . . screams out for accountability. There is accountability. . . sometimes it takes awhile to see justice.
Again, in my faith, I believe there is a day coming.
If I take on the sins of others - by extension - then I actually give those folks an easy out - by extension.
Why should they have to own up to anything if I take responsibility for their sins? (At least that's how the thoughts of someone who is an abuser would sort things out.)
I wonder if the *sowers* group, likely with unemployed, no job skills and aging teeth will look back in twenty years to the good times.. twenty mile "fun runs" through the mississippi mosquito infested swamps.. etc. etc.. "at least the food(?) was good.."
Man oh man - I could not agree with you more on every single word below. My kids and I are a tight knit circle. My daughters off in college but when she comes over she, my son and I would probably be considered for the loony bin with how tight we are. All else fades when it comes to my kids. I'm really glad for you that you are like that with yours. Little irks me more than standing in the grocery checkout and listening to some parent complain to the checker about their kids.....
Really socks - most excellent that you are like that with your kids. Most excellent.
Ah yes, Mr. Runner, the kids. Yepperz.
I've always been - (and I don't want to insult anyone here, if this is too close to home it's not meant to anyone's harm) - incredibly insulted by parents who don't do right, do their best, by their children. That topic is really a case study in how I view "Way" stuff. I"m very watchful of them and protective - they're my kids, it's my job. If I don't, no one else will. So I have clear lines and boundaries.
To be perfectly frank, I don't care what someone taught or how much they pumped it as "God's Word", I'm the ultimate authority on raising my children, my wife and I together make the decisions, not someone else. When they were little I decided, not someone else. So no amount of peer pressure or "doctrine" would cause me to do something with my children if I didn't think it was the right thing to do. So I don't get people who did things they felt pressured to do, they felt bad about - but did it anyway. Tell me I'm going to be unblessed, go to h ell tonight and not pass go - fine. I'll see ya when you get there. I'm not going to screw my kids over to make someone else's idea of what's "right" happen if it's not right by me.
the premise from the beginning of this discussion was that the good times were used to keep people around. not one person has said they would have stayed if the good times had not been going on. in fact every person has said exactly what i put out the premise to be and that is that they absolutely did stay because of the good times and the good people. doing away with the blaming words like "culpable" and "taking on sins" my original premise has stood the test of this thread and that is that the abusive system used the good times to keep itself fed.
I don't think the good times were what held me to twi.
There was something more - "the stand."
I was one of those imbeciles that believed that I was taking a stand for gawdawlmighty against the wiles of the devil. I wasn't going to let ole splitfoot win.
That belief fueled me on to stay way beyond any good times. After all, I wasn't serving me or man, I was serving the creator of the universe and my good times didn't matter.
I got involved for one reason, and that was to learn the bible. I endured the social part of the organization because it was supposed to be pleasing to God. I stuck around for years because I thought I had to; I didn't want the devil to destroy my family. the only good times I experienced had nothing to do with twi. there were a few good people in twi, but they were enduring twi for the same reason I was: for the hope of future benefits and their current friendships with innies. I had some good times with them because they accepted me for who I am. however, twi was not responsible, nor does it deserve credit, for those good times. that would be like crediting the mall or the corner tavern for a chance meeting that grew into a good friendship.
I stayed a long time. I stayed because I was afraid of the harm that would come to my children if I left.
now I realize the harm that came to them was because I stayed too long. I could even say that the harm that came to them was a direct result of getting involved, because the purpose of my involvement was to save a marriage that I thought should end, but my ex was convinced that going to a christian group would save our marriage. unfortunately it did preserve it, to my detriment.
the only things of value I walked out of twi with are my kids, and they sure would have been better off without the systematized abuse they were exposed to. I've had so much to unlearn that it took a long time to get to start knowing myself.
I don't think the good times were what held me to twi.
There was something more - "the stand."
I was one of those imbeciles that believed that I was taking a stand for gawdawlmighty against the wiles of the devil. I wasn't going to let ole splitfoot win.
yeah.
sadly, by taking the stand we actually declared ourselves open season for the wiles of the devil. twi doctrine would say it was because the devil hates God's committed, but when the evil was coming at you from twi leadership itself, the logic doesn't really hold up.
here's the thing, though, is that the "honeymoon phase" is not just a period when things are "good", but it is also the period that the abuser uses to pull the victim even closer to him or her and to keep the victim accepting the blame for the abuse. this phase is a calculated phase, too, and, in fact, all of the phases of the cycle of abuse are calculated by the abuser. no abuser is "out of control" when it comes to the abuse. the proof of that pudding is watch what happens when the police or other "outsiders" come around. the abuser stops everything and turns on the charm, but the minute "outsiders" aren't looking on, the abuser starts in again.
so what has this got to do with the way international? everything because the way used the "honeymoon phase" like the professional abusers they are, and yes they are "professional" because they get paid well for abusing people even if that pay is called "abundant sharing" or "tithing" or "blessing leadership" in some way.
here's the thing, though, is that the "honeymoon phase" is not just a period when things are "good", but it is also the period that the abuser uses to pull the victim even closer to him or her and to keep the victim accepting the blame for the abuse. this phase is a calculated phase, too, and, in fact, all of the phases of the cycle of abuse are calculated by the abuser. no abuser is "out of control" when it comes to the abuse. the proof of that pudding is watch what happens when the police or other "outsiders" come around. the abuser stops everything and turns on the charm, but the minute "outsiders" aren't looking on, the abuser starts in again.
so what has this got to do with the way international? everything because the way used the "honeymoon phase" like the professional abusers they are, and yes they are "professional" because they get paid well for abusing people even if that pay is called "abundant sharing" or "tithing" or "blessing leadership" in some way. but i am always reading about "the good times" in the way and it has taken me this long to get it that of course there were "good times" or otherwise nobody would have stayed around. but i am also always reading about how those "good times" were related not to the way but to people who were trying to do their best regardless of the way. but in these same people were found that when the chips were down, they "stood" with the way and against their supposed "friends" and even bore false witness and m&a'd their "friends" with a screaming spittle filled asschewing to boot.
This makes sense if you're talking about a person as the abuser. BUT to treat twi as an entity that thought and acted as if it were one person - I don't see the parallel.
I got in and stayed because I kept thinking there was something more - something I was missing. Truth be told - I had plenty of good times before twi.
I just can't make the parallel as clearly as you can, brainfixed. No one tried to hold me to twi by evoking the good times. It was guilt that kept me in - perhaps why my knee-jerk reaction to guilt is so strong now.
I tend to agree with doojable...my good times came BEFORE twi...I walked away from some good times in order to "be right with God"...The twi people I ended up hanging out with were people that I would NEVER hang out with otherwise. I gravitated away from my natural inclinations towards a repressive religious cult...good times?
Anything that can be construed as "good times" were a part of the con...part of wierwille's dog and pony show. What kept me around was my belief that twi was spiritually legit...if it was good times, I would have been following the Grateful Dead around the country in a mini bus...which, by the way, I SHOULD have been doing.
the premise from the beginning of this discussion was that the good times were used to keep people around. not one person has said they would have stayed if the good times had not been going on. in fact every person has said exactly what i put out the premise to be and that is that they absolutely did stay because of the good times and the good people. doing away with the blaming words like "culpable" and "taking on sins" my original premise has stood the test of this thread and that is that the abusive system used the good times to keep itself fed.
I don't know…maybe it's just me…your premise doesn't make sense to me - and don't think it's been proven on this thread. The way I understand what others have said on this thread gives me the idea there's a complicated dynamic of what kept each person entangled with TWI. I get a sense of people laying blame where blame is due. Sin is a complicated topic.
I've read enough of Jay Adams' stuff on counseling to know that in any situation involving sin – it usually winds up being a compound problem just because of everyone's sinful nature to begin with. Someone does me wrong, I react in kind or put up a good front of forgive & forget even if they don't think they did anything wrong and don't want my forgiveness – or for whatever reason - the issue is not biblically resolved [like the process shown in Matthew 18:15-17]…then comes the quiet crapstorm of invisible sins – resentment, bitterness, anger, & hatred build up in my head thinking about the person who done me wrong.
Unresolved sin begets more sin – with both parties. That doesn't relieve either side of culpability nor does it diminish the seriousness of the sin that started the ball rolling. This was addressed by Jesus in Matthew 7: 7 and following – saying woe to the world because of stumbling blocks – it is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come – but woe to the person through whom the stumbling block comes! Worst case scenario – someone may lead me down the wrong path to stumble and sin – woe is me – and according to the context of the passage and related passages an even bigger woe to the one who lead me there! PFAL painted up all sin being the same. I beg to differ – there's enough passages in the Bible to give me the idea PFAL ignored a lot of detail. What about presumptuous sin? What about the penal code in the Old Testament – eye for an eye? Punishment to fit the crime. What about the different degrees of punishment in hell mentioned by Jesus in the gospels? All sin the same? I don't think so.
That's why in my opinion, TWI is a cesspool of sins. Going through PFAL material one doesn't find a hard line on sin or a well defined biblical process for resolving sin issues. Instead sin was diminished to "broken fellowship". People were sold a line of goods with a philosophy of "you are righteous now" that steered folks away from honest self-examination.
Although I do think the nature of TWI is parasitic and thrives off of the lives of others – it maintains a certain level of control through any means available. My contention is that the means were usually underhanded, manipulative, and deceptive. If anything - I could see TWI leaders twisting any good thing as somehow a benefit of being in their organization. It reminds me of the plagiarism of vp - using other people's material and putting his twisted spin on it to suit his agenda. Genuine "good times" coming from evil? Don't think so. I think Jesus addressed that - you don't get good fruit from a bad tree. But TWI leaders loved to claim things as their own trophy. Like pointing out some person of note that took the class - they were already successful before the class - but somehow their achievements were due to the principles of PFAL...
It's possible I'm the exception – but looking back on my experience I see any of the "good times" as the breath of fresh air that God snuck into my jail cell. I'm of the opinion now - that not only did God bless me through what some kind person did [genuine "good times"] but seems like as the years went by and the organization sucked up more of my life, God blessed me…some how encouraged me to hang in there for some better day, IN SPITE OF what some Nazi-wannabe did.
My wife & I had only a handful of genuine friends when we were in – friendships that transcended the wacko god-bidness we were in. In unguarded moments we could talk about anything – even dissatisfaction with the ministry. Those friendships were a big chunk of my "good times". It seems silly to me [besides thinking some stupid outfit had that much power] that TWI would use that to keep us in…..I'd say a really big obstacle to consider before my wife & I seriously thought about leaving TWI in 86 – was the likelihood of losing contact with our good friends – cuz we knew we'd be blacklisted once we did. It took every ounce of courage we could muster to grit our teeth and charge through the invisible fence of TWI and leave!
the premise from the beginning of this discussion was that the good times were used to keep people around. not one person has said they would have stayed if the good times had not been going on. in fact every person has said exactly what i put out the premise to be and that is that they absolutely did stay because of the good times and the good people. doing away with the blaming words like "culpable" and "taking on sins" my original premise has stood the test of this thread and that is that the abusive system used the good times to keep itself fed.
Well, actually I did tell you it was mostly fear and the belief that TWI was the only place that had the word of God known since the 1st century. . . that kept me in. :) The "Stand" was the other thing. Same thing potato said. . .I relate to that. Any good times were just a by product of people getting together. . . had to move that word over the world. We ambassadors had a mission. We replaced Christ. :)
TWI moved us around like crazy. . . WOW. . . Corps assignments. . . it was not really conducive to long term relationships. I don't think they wanted us too close for long. We came and went to different areas. . . people worked for other believers. . . we actually moved 13 times in a few years. It was a gypsy lifestyle.
There were not that many good times. At all. If that is what they used. . . they did a poor job of it. I was usually trying to survive. That is also why the FEW good times and people stand out for some of us.
Please know. . . I am not trying to rough here. . . but anyway you break it down. . . it is a broad judgement call on "tangled mess" of individual lives and experiences.
I wasn't always in a comfy twig sitting on my bottom singing kiddie songs. I will spare you the ugly details, but I had my share of troubles.
You paid a heavy price because your Mom was in a very ugly cult. I am so sorry. Truly I mean that. What I hope you really understand is that most here paid a high price too. Who do we see about that?
If I take on the sins of others - by extension - then I actually give those folks an easy out - by extension.
Why should they have to own up to anything if I take responsibility for their sins? (At least that's how the thoughts of someone who is an abuser would sort things out.)
Intents and effects... its a tangled mess.
That is so true. . . and. . . I would still be yeilding some kind of authority or control over to a dead, drunken, abusive, rapist. Funny, I am just not into that anymore.
The question that begs answer, is how would that possibly aid healing? The LAST thing I want is for someone else to feel responsibility, guilt or shame for something they didn't do. Especially people who are victims of a sort themselves.
Please note, I am not trying to be offensive, I have just wondered what anyone could possibly gain from this.
Maybe this should be on the "my story" thread. I'm not sure. I only know that it seems to tie into this one. ( I'll try to give the abbreviated version.)
When I got "witnessed to", not only was I an adult, I was already estranged from my family. Big time! When I made the split with my family, it was a very, very intense experience. -----Fast forward---I get made a twig leader and my kid brother shows up for twig meetings. He wants to take PFAL so, for his 16th birthday, my parents pay his way into the class. -----fast forward again----my parents take the class---my Mom becomes a twig leader. My parents meet lots of great people with whom they maintain friendships that span decades. Lots and lots of great memories are made. -----at the same time--- My brother gets on the TWI conveyor belt line. Lots of classes. Three leadership training "programs". Lots of memories are made. Not all of them are great. Some of them are, well, you know. Chalk it all up to fate. I'm not really sure anymore. All I know is that it was my zeal for The Way that played a large part in how these three lives evolved. And, while I recognize my role as a factor in the equation, I can't allow myself to feel guilty. I never did anything out of malice or greed. I simply thought I had struck gold and wanted my family to share in the wealth. It's convoluted. Life is convoluted. You can't beat yourself up for doing what you thought would help people. Some were helped, some were hurt. Life is like that sometimes. All I can do is say I'm sorry for the adverse effects my involvement may have indirectly caused. I truly mean it.
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Tzaia
There were no "good" times. There were a few good people, but even my first visit - a branch meeting - was not what I would call "good". Overwhelming - yes. I was told it would cost at least a dollar
Linda Z
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, RumRunner. Without naming names, what are you talking about? You can give examples of behavior/types of posts without naming names. I'm really trying to und
potato
I'm glad vpw is dead.
now I see
Yeah, I know of an early Corps couple whose teenage daughter LCM helped himself to, it's too bad they believed the hype, they shoulda been smarter. Â They were even campus coordinators, they probably made bad decisions though, especially the ones that allowed their daughter to be in proximity to LCM, even though they lived three hours apart.
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rascal
That is sick. :(
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geisha779
The whole premise of the original post by brainfixed, while interesting and accurate when speaking of a one on one relationship that involves abuse. . . . is too cut and dried to relate to the myriad of relationships and events of years in our TWI time. As doojable pointed out. . . . . . way too many actors to break it down so neatly.
Were there good people in TWI? You bet. I married one. 20 plus years later, I can say with confidence. . .he is a good person. . . . it is a genuine relationship. It was forged in TWI. Do we still hold the same beliefs. . . HELL no! We were fortunate. . . we changed together. Others less so.
Is Kimberly a good person? You bet. Was she a good person in TWI. . . you bet. Was her sister a good person. . . Yep. Was her ex. . . Yep. Were the good times they shared with hubby a sham. . . nope. . .they all genuinely cared for each other. He has cared about them for years, thought of them, spoke of them, and hoped the best for them. . . he STILL loves them and cares about their lives and well-being.
Did I think MusicalLee who posts here on occasion a good person in TWI? No, I remember her and her mother as EXCEPTIONAL people. Actually, they stand out in my memories beyond TWI as some of the FINEST people I have known. Salt of the earth. . . down right good.
Did VP or LCM or the BOT use the good times we had with these people to keep us involved. I really don't think so. . . I think it was just certain people clicked.
As Rumrunner so aptly pointed out. . . there were enough BAD people and BAD times. . . even from the get-go to blow that premise out of the water.
In certain circles, twigs and places. . . would you leave cash, any jewelry or prescription meds laying around? NO!!! Why? Your "brother" or "sister" in CHRIST would steal them from you. "Good times".
Because we laughed and had fun when I taught musicalee to drive a stick-shift. . . or when we shopped. . .am I responsible for the abuse of others. No. . . and I didn't abuse her. . . I let her challenge my transmission. It was the only good car I owned in TWI. :(
As a Christian. . . I confess a savior. . . HE takes on the sins of others. . . not me. In my faith. . . being a flawed human . . . is a given. Guilt and shame. . . bad things. . .
VP and his ilk???
Well, there is a whole special category reserved just for them. . . check it out.
If I am going to make wholesale judgements on an entire group of people. . . I need to be sure I have the right bad guys. How can I possibly lay guilt and culpability at the feet of people who were conned just like me. Kinda goes against that whole love thy neighbor as thyself.. . . judge not. . . . thingy I subscribe to.
If you haven't forgiven yourself. . . you might be tempted to take on the added burden of guilt belonging to another.. . . .I get that. . . But, give yourself a break. . . as T-bone said. . .
I say let the actual abusers bear their own guilt and shame. . . they have the option of repentance and forgivness. . . I am not going to hold my breath though. . . only certain shades of blue suit me. . . I would be turning blue waiting on that event.
The injustice that brainfixed, ex, and many of us endured. . . screams out for accountability. There is accountability. . . sometimes it takes awhile to see justice.
Again, in my faith, I believe there is a day coming.
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doojable
Well said Geisha - but I'd like to add one thing:
If I take on the sins of others - by extension - then I actually give those folks an easy out - by extension.
Why should they have to own up to anything if I take responsibility for their sins? (At least that's how the thoughts of someone who is an abuser would sort things out.)
Intents and effects... its a tangled mess.
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Ham
I wonder if the *sowers* group, likely with unemployed, no job skills and aging teeth will look back in twenty years to the good times.. twenty mile "fun runs" through the mississippi mosquito infested swamps.. etc. etc.. "at least the food(?) was good.."
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RumRunner
Man oh man - I could not agree with you more on every single word below. My kids and I are a tight knit circle. My daughters off in college but when she comes over she, my son and I would probably be considered for the loony bin with how tight we are. All else fades when it comes to my kids. I'm really glad for you that you are like that with yours. Little irks me more than standing in the grocery checkout and listening to some parent complain to the checker about their kids.....
Really socks - most excellent that you are like that with your kids. Most excellent.
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brainfixed
the premise from the beginning of this discussion was that the good times were used to keep people around. not one person has said they would have stayed if the good times had not been going on. in fact every person has said exactly what i put out the premise to be and that is that they absolutely did stay because of the good times and the good people. doing away with the blaming words like "culpable" and "taking on sins" my original premise has stood the test of this thread and that is that the abusive system used the good times to keep itself fed.
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excathedra
sorry, i don't know why i thought you grew up in the way
?
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excathedra
i'm not sure i stayed because of the good times. i think i stayed out of some weird guilt or shame of being bounced
i remember how people were so looked down on when they didn't come back after interim year of whatev
there was some kind of stigma attached
we had LOA and DFAC and these LISTS that came out in the corps household newsletter
and a lot of talking about them publicly and such
it was really bad. of course now i don't think that way, but i did
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excathedra
oink oink hogging the thread
i had some REALLY good times -- never laughed so hard in my life -- with people i became friends with in residence in the 9th corps
"in residence" is that an odd term ? i never refer to my college years like that, but of course i'm not a doctor lol
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doojable
You know...
I don't think the good times were what held me to twi.
There was something more - "the stand."
I was one of those imbeciles that believed that I was taking a stand for gawdawlmighty against the wiles of the devil. I wasn't going to let ole splitfoot win.
That belief fueled me on to stay way beyond any good times. After all, I wasn't serving me or man, I was serving the creator of the universe and my good times didn't matter.
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potato
I got involved for one reason, and that was to learn the bible. I endured the social part of the organization because it was supposed to be pleasing to God. I stuck around for years because I thought I had to; I didn't want the devil to destroy my family. the only good times I experienced had nothing to do with twi. there were a few good people in twi, but they were enduring twi for the same reason I was: for the hope of future benefits and their current friendships with innies. I had some good times with them because they accepted me for who I am. however, twi was not responsible, nor does it deserve credit, for those good times. that would be like crediting the mall or the corner tavern for a chance meeting that grew into a good friendship.
I stayed a long time. I stayed because I was afraid of the harm that would come to my children if I left.
now I realize the harm that came to them was because I stayed too long. I could even say that the harm that came to them was a direct result of getting involved, because the purpose of my involvement was to save a marriage that I thought should end, but my ex was convinced that going to a christian group would save our marriage. unfortunately it did preserve it, to my detriment.
the only things of value I walked out of twi with are my kids, and they sure would have been better off without the systematized abuse they were exposed to. I've had so much to unlearn that it took a long time to get to start knowing myself.
yeah.
sadly, by taking the stand we actually declared ourselves open season for the wiles of the devil. twi doctrine would say it was because the devil hates God's committed, but when the evil was coming at you from twi leadership itself, the logic doesn't really hold up.
I wanted to be a winner. it made me a loser.
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brainfixed
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excathedra
i can see the parallels (not talking about need and want for godssake)
poor potato and all good people
what hurts me a lot is that the people i laughed with because we were a lot alike
when i saw them devastated and hurt, it killed me
do you think i left then ? no. did they ? no
and some of them even now kind of sing praises
i can't do that anymore
(and it's not because of my stupid f up ness and story)
i should not "just"
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doojable
This makes sense if you're talking about a person as the abuser. BUT to treat twi as an entity that thought and acted as if it were one person - I don't see the parallel.
I got in and stayed because I kept thinking there was something more - something I was missing. Truth be told - I had plenty of good times before twi.
I just can't make the parallel as clearly as you can, brainfixed. No one tried to hold me to twi by evoking the good times. It was guilt that kept me in - perhaps why my knee-jerk reaction to guilt is so strong now.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I tend to agree with doojable...my good times came BEFORE twi...I walked away from some good times in order to "be right with God"...The twi people I ended up hanging out with were people that I would NEVER hang out with otherwise. I gravitated away from my natural inclinations towards a repressive religious cult...good times?
Anything that can be construed as "good times" were a part of the con...part of wierwille's dog and pony show. What kept me around was my belief that twi was spiritually legit...if it was good times, I would have been following the Grateful Dead around the country in a mini bus...which, by the way, I SHOULD have been doing.
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T-Bone
I don't know…maybe it's just me…your premise doesn't make sense to me - and don't think it's been proven on this thread. The way I understand what others have said on this thread gives me the idea there's a complicated dynamic of what kept each person entangled with TWI. I get a sense of people laying blame where blame is due. Sin is a complicated topic.
I've read enough of Jay Adams' stuff on counseling to know that in any situation involving sin – it usually winds up being a compound problem just because of everyone's sinful nature to begin with. Someone does me wrong, I react in kind or put up a good front of forgive & forget even if they don't think they did anything wrong and don't want my forgiveness – or for whatever reason - the issue is not biblically resolved [like the process shown in Matthew 18:15-17]…then comes the quiet crapstorm of invisible sins – resentment, bitterness, anger, & hatred build up in my head thinking about the person who done me wrong.
Unresolved sin begets more sin – with both parties. That doesn't relieve either side of culpability nor does it diminish the seriousness of the sin that started the ball rolling. This was addressed by Jesus in Matthew 7: 7 and following – saying woe to the world because of stumbling blocks – it is inevitable that stumbling blocks will come – but woe to the person through whom the stumbling block comes! Worst case scenario – someone may lead me down the wrong path to stumble and sin – woe is me – and according to the context of the passage and related passages an even bigger woe to the one who lead me there! PFAL painted up all sin being the same. I beg to differ – there's enough passages in the Bible to give me the idea PFAL ignored a lot of detail. What about presumptuous sin? What about the penal code in the Old Testament – eye for an eye? Punishment to fit the crime. What about the different degrees of punishment in hell mentioned by Jesus in the gospels? All sin the same? I don't think so.
That's why in my opinion, TWI is a cesspool of sins. Going through PFAL material one doesn't find a hard line on sin or a well defined biblical process for resolving sin issues. Instead sin was diminished to "broken fellowship". People were sold a line of goods with a philosophy of "you are righteous now" that steered folks away from honest self-examination.
Although I do think the nature of TWI is parasitic and thrives off of the lives of others – it maintains a certain level of control through any means available. My contention is that the means were usually underhanded, manipulative, and deceptive. If anything - I could see TWI leaders twisting any good thing as somehow a benefit of being in their organization. It reminds me of the plagiarism of vp - using other people's material and putting his twisted spin on it to suit his agenda. Genuine "good times" coming from evil? Don't think so. I think Jesus addressed that - you don't get good fruit from a bad tree. But TWI leaders loved to claim things as their own trophy. Like pointing out some person of note that took the class - they were already successful before the class - but somehow their achievements were due to the principles of PFAL...
It's possible I'm the exception – but looking back on my experience I see any of the "good times" as the breath of fresh air that God snuck into my jail cell. I'm of the opinion now - that not only did God bless me through what some kind person did [genuine "good times"] but seems like as the years went by and the organization sucked up more of my life, God blessed me…some how encouraged me to hang in there for some better day, IN SPITE OF what some Nazi-wannabe did.
My wife & I had only a handful of genuine friends when we were in – friendships that transcended the wacko god-bidness we were in. In unguarded moments we could talk about anything – even dissatisfaction with the ministry. Those friendships were a big chunk of my "good times". It seems silly to me [besides thinking some stupid outfit had that much power] that TWI would use that to keep us in…..I'd say a really big obstacle to consider before my wife & I seriously thought about leaving TWI in 86 – was the likelihood of losing contact with our good friends – cuz we knew we'd be blacklisted once we did. It took every ounce of courage we could muster to grit our teeth and charge through the invisible fence of TWI and leave!
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doojable
Now - would I have gone to a second twig fellowship if the people there had melted my face on the first contact? Not only NO!, but Heyyyyyallll NO!
But that could be said of any relationship - abusive or not.
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cheranne
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geisha779
Well, actually I did tell you it was mostly fear and the belief that TWI was the only place that had the word of God known since the 1st century. . . that kept me in. :) The "Stand" was the other thing. Same thing potato said. . .I relate to that. Any good times were just a by product of people getting together. . . had to move that word over the world. We ambassadors had a mission. We replaced Christ. :)
TWI moved us around like crazy. . . WOW. . . Corps assignments. . . it was not really conducive to long term relationships. I don't think they wanted us too close for long. We came and went to different areas. . . people worked for other believers. . . we actually moved 13 times in a few years. It was a gypsy lifestyle.
There were not that many good times. At all. If that is what they used. . . they did a poor job of it. I was usually trying to survive. That is also why the FEW good times and people stand out for some of us.
Please know. . . I am not trying to rough here. . . but anyway you break it down. . . it is a broad judgement call on "tangled mess" of individual lives and experiences.
I wasn't always in a comfy twig sitting on my bottom singing kiddie songs. I will spare you the ugly details, but I had my share of troubles.
You paid a heavy price because your Mom was in a very ugly cult. I am so sorry. Truly I mean that. What I hope you really understand is that most here paid a high price too. Who do we see about that?
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Bolshevik
I did. got my share of bumps and bruises.
twi taught you are not free to go just cause you're 18,19 . . . 26. . etc
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geisha779
That is so true. . . and. . . I would still be yeilding some kind of authority or control over to a dead, drunken, abusive, rapist. Funny, I am just not into that anymore.
The question that begs answer, is how would that possibly aid healing? The LAST thing I want is for someone else to feel responsibility, guilt or shame for something they didn't do. Especially people who are victims of a sort themselves.
Please note, I am not trying to be offensive, I have just wondered what anyone could possibly gain from this.
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now I see
Excathedra and T-Bone I agree with both of your observations, well said.Â
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waysider
Maybe this should be on the "my story" thread. I'm not sure. I only know that it seems to tie into this one. ( I'll try to give the abbreviated version.)
When I got "witnessed to", not only was I an adult, I was already estranged from my family. Big time! When I made the split with my family, it was a very, very intense experience. -----Fast forward---I get made a twig leader and my kid brother shows up for twig meetings. He wants to take PFAL so, for his 16th birthday, my parents pay his way into the class. -----fast forward again----my parents take the class---my Mom becomes a twig leader. My parents meet lots of great people with whom they maintain friendships that span decades. Lots and lots of great memories are made. -----at the same time--- My brother gets on the TWI conveyor belt line. Lots of classes. Three leadership training "programs". Lots of memories are made. Not all of them are great. Some of them are, well, you know. Chalk it all up to fate. I'm not really sure anymore. All I know is that it was my zeal for The Way that played a large part in how these three lives evolved. And, while I recognize my role as a factor in the equation, I can't allow myself to feel guilty. I never did anything out of malice or greed. I simply thought I had struck gold and wanted my family to share in the wealth. It's convoluted. Life is convoluted. You can't beat yourself up for doing what you thought would help people. Some were helped, some were hurt. Life is like that sometimes. All I can do is say I'm sorry for the adverse effects my involvement may have indirectly caused. I truly mean it.
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