Geisha, it seems to me that you have misread brainfixed and jumped down her throat with both feet, getting indignant over what you want to think she meant.
My perceptions of what I read were entirely different than yours. My understanding was the Jesus forgive them...was in response to my post concerning the guilt and shame I feel having been a participant, a promoter, a contributer to a group that caused such great harm to so many...
You disagree with her point about how difficult it is for folks to hear us talk about our happy smarmy memories in twi when her life was made so terribly difficult by something that we adults believed in and promoted...yeah...ok so can you do it without making it so personal and mean? You have people here that had very negative life impacting consequences as a result of association with twi...Consider that maybe for some, it is hard to read about the warm funzy times knowing that during that time you were frightened, neglected, beaten or raped or forced to abort your inconvenient child, had your marriage destroyed, lost your kiddos..etc... by the very people and events that we are so fond of romanticizing?
Keep your happy memories, nobody is trying to deny that good didn`t happen in twi...nobody....the question for some of us is.....at what cost?
Hi Brainfixed, I mentioned on another thread somewhere, one way of thinking about my experience in TWI has to do with being a predator, facilitator, or victim. Although I do think using such broad brush strokes can often lead to over generalization or tunnel vision – which may not be helpful in addressing an issue what this place does to me[/b]" thread].
However, it works for me in that it's just a starting point for sorting out details – and usually evolves into exploring other aspects of a problem. Since I've joined Grease Spot, I think I've become more aware of when I fall into black & white thinking. In my opinion, that works for simple moral issues like adultery, stealing, murder, etc. – ya know, it's either right or wrong! But applying black & white thinking to all my experiences or a big segment of my life on non-moral issues is not really giving a self-examined life due diligence.
Anywho…after all that gosh awful long disclaimer bidness above – my 2 cents on the moral aspect of TWI – getting back to the predator/facilitator/victim thing – I fess up to being a very good facilitator when I was in TWI. I don't consider myself a victim, definitely was not a predator – and I'm only speaking for one facilitator – myself.
A dictionary definition of facilitator is "one that helps to bring about an outcome by providing indirect or unobtrusive assistance, guidance, or supervision." In my case – I was an ignorant facilitator. Sure, I thought my money, time, and energy were helping to move "The Word" over the world. But in fact, I was supporting an elaborate system of predators, facilitators & victims. Perhaps a predator or their prey was more aware of their role than I was of mine. But anyway – that's what I get angry about – the years of giving my all to this rank crap-hole outfit thinking I was serving God…a misdirected, deluded life!
~~
Everyone here has a different perspective of TWI…some refer to it as a cult [as I do], some do not – so what?! What I think is interesting and illuminating are the ways people describe their experience…It's a funny thing…a few years ago I got over the fear of what others at work would think of my TWI experience – no longer afraid of that stigma – I began sharing stuff…certain twisted doctrines, the mindset, Corps program, vp's pajama party/doggy porn video extravaganza, WOW program, whatever. The company I work for prides themselves on process and good critical thinking skills are a big deal.
And the vibe I pick up from my associates is respect for the clear thinking evidenced in my leaving TWI and sorting through the aftermath. One of my friends there is a seminary graduate – and he gives me some incidents from a mainstream church perspective – of pastors who can twist scripture to suit an agenda, not to mention scandals we all hear about in local news. It kinda helps me put some of this stuff in perspective with the bigger picture called reality. It is what it is – and it's a part of my life.
~~
I just can't lump my TWI experience in one general category. It's a unique & interesting section of the mosaic called my life. Good times? You bet! Lots of them! I mean genuine good times & bittersweet lessons too – not listing them all but a few that come to mind:
– meeting my wife on the WOW field [so I married my WOW sister – ya gotta problem with that?!]
– having fun, enjoying the camaraderie & developing my musicianship while in ministry bands [i'm forever grateful to Steve H for taking the time to "heal my wooden ear" – I could actually spot a sour note by the time I left in-residence…now if I could just play what I hear in my head…guess that's in the Advanced Class ].
– the deep friendships, funny or poignant moments of seeing the best in people come out during some pretty yucky times…must be something to that…don't think most folks are gluttons for punishment…I dunno – the indomitable spirit of man maybe… making the best of a situation or something.
– developing a passion for reading – and not just the Bible.
– learning by trial & error [mostly error] the practical side of life [yup, youth is wasted on the young – fortunately, my investment in the school of Hard Knoxville is paying off now – not only in being a smart consumer but hopefully…and more importantly a whole lot wiser in decision making on the big issues of life].
– understanding the role of perception. I've gone from believing equals receiving to believing equals perceiving. In other words, my belief system shapes my mental map of reality. Nothing earth shattering about that idea – it's just something to remember whenever I take stock of my life…it sorta asks the question "how does my mental map of reality jive with what's going on around me?" Instead of wasting time & energy by depending on some imaginary law of believing, wishful thinking, or trying to manipulate reality – I look at the obvious – what is seen by the naked eye [taking off the PFAL colored glasses as Oakspear puts it]…instead of spiritualizing everything all out of proportion.
– As a Christian, painfully learning there is no viable substitute for having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
I understand what she has said and can identify with her post. She in turns seems to have received value and grasped my meanings without perceiving it as a personal attack or affront. We have derived value from each others posts...received a measure of comfort in understanding.
Neither (as far as I can tell) are being intentionally offensive, just posting our own personal thoughts feelings impressions of our lives and our perceptions post twi. Is that ok? Do we all have to agree here?
Rascal,
I am glad you identify with each other and can recieve comfort from shared understanding. Maybe I just don't get it. :) Seriously.
But, included in both your thoughts are the lives and value at a given point, of others. Am I wrong?
I just see it a bit differently. You, I think, know how I feel about TWI and what happened. I rarely disagree with you on an issue.
Maybe I am remembering individuals . . . who knows. . . I lost two people recently and I am in a funny place.
Wholesale judgements tend to send up a red flag for me.
I am probably being ....y as well.
I am gunning for an A from Rumrunner in Cynicism 101 after all. . . . I will try not to be too harsh. :)
As far as I am concerned, it doesn`t matter HOW great my motives were....these guys simply could NOT have functioned without our whole hearted support....without the legitimacy of our lives to hide behind.
I am not denying that good times happened, or that there weren`t good people involved that did good things. What I feel is that without the appearance of earnest people in Godly endeavors...the evil would have had nothing to hide behind... people would have recognized twi for what it was much sooner, maybe before becoming ensnared.
I'm sorry - but I think this is a naive statement. The resounding call that twi was a cult was loud and clear while I was in-rez - and even before. Those of us already "in" didn't listen. Folks still took pfal. You cannot lay total blame on "our appearance of good, or purity, or any other endeavor" luring folks in.
THAT takes the blame off the bad-actors (evil-doers) and puts it where it does not belong- plain and simple.
Folks continued to join twi because they wanted to. Many of them ignored the warning that twi was a cult. Why? I don't know - but I suspect their hunger to find an answer was stronger than the warnings of the media, and the religious leaders at the time. And think about it... most of them looked at that green card in the hands of a WOW who was anything but prosperous. That WOW usually arrived to his or her destination in a beat up junker of a car, wearing tattered clothing with three other WOWs in the same condition. The folks pedaling that class were not ambassadors for those ten promises in the least.
We are human.
People find ways to be friends, sing, and find camaraderie in even the worst of situations. I refuse to feel guilty because my humanity allowed me to be nice to people and enjoy their company. THAT would be wrong. That would be handing over even more to a lying cult, a drunken leader, and the people he trained to do the same. It's dishonest in that if I do so, I take someone else's pain and I claim it as my own. It's a bastardization of compassion because I then become the focus. I make it about me and not about the true victim.
As to the "honeymoon phase" that brainfixed described at the beginning of this thread, that description was about two people in an abusive relationship. When you extend that out to a group acting on an individual, it becomes much more complex. Now you're talking about at least four identities - the "victim", the abusive cult (a system), the person who has no idea, and the person who is abusive by nature. The honeymoon phase was there for everyone, and the squeeze was put on everyone. It was like a tent covering a crowd.
Twi was already established long before any of us "got in." der victiod was already doing his dirty deeds before he went to San Francisco.
Godly things happen in the most ungodly places. That doesn't legitimize the surroundings or the bad circumstances.
rascal you are absolutely correct about my intentions when writing what jesus said. if you believe that while jesus was hanging on the cross he spoke with such understanding and love for those who were crucifying him then it is a given that jesus knew what he was talking about and perceived that good people with good intentions can get involved in some very bad stuff without knowing what they're doing. can you accept the forgiveness and be at peace?
waysider great summation of things!
bolshevik i get what you're saying.
t-bone i always appreciate your posts and they cause me to think more deeply about things than sometimes i want to think. i do have to say that my way experience was in just one category for me because i was a child forced to participate and as soon as i had a choice i took it and ran like hell far far away and started what i consider to be my real life. i had no opportunity to make good friends because once we all started telling what was happening we were kept separate. i was the proverbial "black sheep" of my family because i would not accept what was being taught and forced upon me as "godly" so i don't have good family ties now, and i made sure i had no "inconvenient" children! it took me many years to stop seeking out the only thing i knew as a "real" man and keep myself out of abusive relationships and i have no man at all right now and really don't want a man in my life for a long time. as for friends right now i have people i know that i do things with, but other than that i am my own best friend and my own best company. i have professionals to turn to in times of crisis and they all agree that there will come a point in my life when i will find myself with good friends and maybe even a good relationship, but i'm not holding my breath but am instead enjoying the freedom and healing of being good to me.
geisha do you recognize that you are doing to my words what was taught in pfal to do to the words of the bible? and do you recognize that your fierce refusal to accept people at face value is a telling characteristic of what was taught how to treat people supposedly somehow "less than" in the way? can you and i agree to disagree and leave it at that?
geisha do you recognize that you are doing to my words what was taught in pfal to do to the words of the bible? and do you recognize that your fierce refusal to accept people at face value is a telling characteristic of what was taught how to treat people supposedly somehow "less than" in the way? can you and i agree to disagree and leave it at that?
That is quite a mouthful. . . an amazingly myopic assumption and I think I will refrain from comment.
Geisha, I hated to take a chance on making you angry. I am awfully glad that you tried to understand what I was struggling to say.
It`s just that I have been on the receiving end of somebody getting really angry over what they think I meant and attacking me on what they understood me to say rather than what my actual intentions were...sigh...call it poor communication skills on my part. It is so hard to accurately communicate here.
Dooj, I don`t think that you understand my position at all.
In acknowledging my culpability in supporting, and promoting people and an organization that was so destructive in no way says that I am accepting blame for what vpw did.
What I did though unwitting was a contributing factor in what enabled a destructive organization to wreak havoc in many lives.
Actually, rascal I think I do understand your position. I've struggled with all the various angles of this situation not only in the past few posts - but over many readings of the back and forth of many posters.
I don't think you or (anyone else on this thread) want to make someone else's pain about you. I just think that to wrap yourself in that attitude has the effect of doing so. I'm trying to stand back from the oak and see the bigger picture - where the poison ivy lurks at the base of the trunk. I'm trying to point out that your position has ramifications that you aren't aware of. I have no doubt that your position has all the love you feel for people at it's core.
Perhaps when it all gets put in writing and it's a HARD COPY the many facets become more real.
I get the words -"Forgive them for they know not what they do." I get it.
But now - 30 years out - I see a much bigger web. I have perspective.
That is quite a mouthful. . . an amazingly myopic assumption and I think I will refrain from comment.
i admit that it is but myopic is the only view i have of you or anybody else here and it's the only view you have of me so what're girls supposed to do? also i was writing while you and others were posting so i hadn't seen your latest post to rascal and once i had i began to get a less blurry vision of you. i have felt like you have been attacking me ever since you started doing things like taking things i said from one discussion out of context and putting them into other discussions and directly misquoting me and using those misquotes out of their context and taking things i say with no ill towards anybody and calling them "backhanded" and other things like that, and so i have also felt defensive when reading your writings. i have learned a whole lot about how i feel and perceive things about the way since i made my first post on this discussion and other discussions. for starters i learned how black and white my thinking about it all has been all these years and i have backed off of that quite a bit but i'm not going to be good at not doing it until i practice more and the only place i have to practice is here because i don't associate with anybody in my real life that has a clue of what being in the way was like. my professional support people can and do gently guide me when i use black and white thinking with them but this whole way experience has been mostly untouched because it's like a reserved little corner of my mind with a big DANGER DO NOT PROCEED sign on it all. real human beings have mixed thoughts and feelings and opinons on many things in their lives and in one situation may state something one way and in another situation state something that would be perceived as completely opposite of what they had said before. it's not underhanded but it's just human.
Well Dooj, based on your assertions in the previous post concerning the naivety of my statement, the reason that folks got involved with twi, why they stayed...why I feel a responsibility for what I unwittingly involved people in and the resulting consequences, I have to say simply that you are mistaken in your perceptions concerning my pov....shrug.
I did whole heartedly agree with this statement that you made though.
Godly things happen in the most ungodly places. That doesn't legitimize the surroundings or the bad circumstances.
it is an insult to me when somebody tries to convince me that since they didn't know about and didn't witness and didn't do anything abusive then their memories should remain untainted by the reality of what they were helping to perpetrate regardless of their level or lack of involvement. it's like when my mother says to me that she didn't see or know about so and so do anything to me so she has a right to hold good memories of them. but mom he raped me!
Some simply just can't remember. doesn't mean they weren't there or didn't see it or didn't have a hand in it. It just didn't register. They really can't remember. IMO.
Well, if this thing hasn't become convoluted enough, I'll toss in another twist.
When I was in Fellow Laborers, there came a point where I thought that, perhaps, the most reasonable thing for me to do was to completely call it quits. But herein lies the problem. Back home, I had family that were heavily involved in The Way. I had brought them into the fold. How would I now tell them I might have made a terrible mistake? I wasn't really sure if my doubts had any merit. Likewise, there were local believers who looked up to those of us who chose to become involved in the various "commitment-demanding" programs. If I was wrong, what effect would my quitting have on their stands? Was it right for me to be so selfish when I wasn't even sure if my suspicions were real? Does any of this make sense? Some things that are blatant and intentional beg to have someone claim ownership. Others simply have to be accepted as kismet. Beyond that, I really have no answers except that, if there is anything reasonable in the here and now you can do to rectify what you feel was a personal indiscretion in the past, maybe it's time to act on it. Otherwise, it's what my Grandpa used to call "crying over spilt milk". Please believe me, I don't use that expression lightly or as an attempt to minimize anyone's personal experience. But sometimes "there ain't nothing you can do but put your shoulder to the wheel and keep pushin' on".
Well Dooj, based on your assertions in the previous post concerning the naivety of my statement, the reason that folks got involved with twi, why they stayed...why I feel a responsibility for what I unwittingly involved people in and the resulting consequences, I have to say that you are mistaken in your perceptions concerning my pov....shrug.
I did whole heartedly agree with this statement that you made though.
Godly things happen in the most ungodly places. That doesn't legitimize the surroundings or the bad circumstances.
Rascal - I said that I thought your statement was naive. I made no assertions to your POV. I happen to think that black/white thinking is no way to deal with complex issues of humanity.
I gave a different perspective regarding how and why people got involved and why they stayed - and that was admittedly incomplete.
so perhaps it was easier for me to get out when i had the chance? i was of the age to be a "rebellious teenager" and i had spent most of my life waiting for the chance to run far far away and start something new so it was easy for me to cut my ties at the time, and that desire to run far far away started before being forced into the way, so maybe it wasn't just easier for me because i lacked any real ties to the way but also because my parents were people i had already wanted to get away from? this is something for me to think about.
I, in no way, want you to be on the defensive with me. I was responding to your words and ideas. . . it was in no way personal. I am often less than tactful. . . it is part of my charm. . . it works better face to face. . . I have a happy countenance.
doojable
That was the most amazing post. It was concise, well written, and what I have been trying to express. It had some of the best lines I have read in ages. The "Bastardization of compassion". . . so perfect. I really enjoyed reading that post and identify with that perspective.
Rascal,
I think you are a great champion of the walking wounded. . . good on you!!
my heart goes out to bolsh and brainfixed more than good time folks because as i understand it these (you) people were CHILDREN ABUSED so no good times in my book sorry
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Tzaia
There were no "good" times. There were a few good people, but even my first visit - a branch meeting - was not what I would call "good". Overwhelming - yes. I was told it would cost at least a dollar
Linda Z
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, RumRunner. Without naming names, what are you talking about? You can give examples of behavior/types of posts without naming names. I'm really trying to und
potato
I'm glad vpw is dead.
rascal
Geisha, it seems to me that you have misread brainfixed and jumped down her throat with both feet, getting indignant over what you want to think she meant.
My perceptions of what I read were entirely different than yours. My understanding was the Jesus forgive them...was in response to my post concerning the guilt and shame I feel having been a participant, a promoter, a contributer to a group that caused such great harm to so many...
You disagree with her point about how difficult it is for folks to hear us talk about our happy smarmy memories in twi when her life was made so terribly difficult by something that we adults believed in and promoted...yeah...ok so can you do it without making it so personal and mean? You have people here that had very negative life impacting consequences as a result of association with twi...Consider that maybe for some, it is hard to read about the warm funzy times knowing that during that time you were frightened, neglected, beaten or raped or forced to abort your inconvenient child, had your marriage destroyed, lost your kiddos..etc... by the very people and events that we are so fond of romanticizing?
Keep your happy memories, nobody is trying to deny that good didn`t happen in twi...nobody....the question for some of us is.....at what cost?
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waysider
If I say that I personally feel guilty for my involvement, that's one thing.
If I say that anyone who ever participated shares that guilt, that's quite another.
This is where things start to get gray and blurry.
Did I ever have good times?---Yes.
Do I ever feel guilty for dragging my family into the ministry?---Again, the answer is yes.
I can only answer those questions for myself.
Good, bad or indifferent, the overall price of it was far too high.
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T-Bone
Hi Brainfixed, I mentioned on another thread somewhere, one way of thinking about my experience in TWI has to do with being a predator, facilitator, or victim. Although I do think using such broad brush strokes can often lead to over generalization or tunnel vision – which may not be helpful in addressing an issue what this place does to me[/b]" thread].
However, it works for me in that it's just a starting point for sorting out details – and usually evolves into exploring other aspects of a problem. Since I've joined Grease Spot, I think I've become more aware of when I fall into black & white thinking. In my opinion, that works for simple moral issues like adultery, stealing, murder, etc. – ya know, it's either right or wrong! But applying black & white thinking to all my experiences or a big segment of my life on non-moral issues is not really giving a self-examined life due diligence.
Anywho…after all that gosh awful long disclaimer bidness above – my 2 cents on the moral aspect of TWI – getting back to the predator/facilitator/victim thing – I fess up to being a very good facilitator when I was in TWI. I don't consider myself a victim, definitely was not a predator – and I'm only speaking for one facilitator – myself.
A dictionary definition of facilitator is "one that helps to bring about an outcome by providing indirect or unobtrusive assistance, guidance, or supervision." In my case – I was an ignorant facilitator. Sure, I thought my money, time, and energy were helping to move "The Word" over the world. But in fact, I was supporting an elaborate system of predators, facilitators & victims. Perhaps a predator or their prey was more aware of their role than I was of mine. But anyway – that's what I get angry about – the years of giving my all to this rank crap-hole outfit thinking I was serving God…a misdirected, deluded life!
~~
Everyone here has a different perspective of TWI…some refer to it as a cult [as I do], some do not – so what?! What I think is interesting and illuminating are the ways people describe their experience…It's a funny thing…a few years ago I got over the fear of what others at work would think of my TWI experience – no longer afraid of that stigma – I began sharing stuff…certain twisted doctrines, the mindset, Corps program, vp's pajama party/doggy porn video extravaganza, WOW program, whatever. The company I work for prides themselves on process and good critical thinking skills are a big deal.
And the vibe I pick up from my associates is respect for the clear thinking evidenced in my leaving TWI and sorting through the aftermath. One of my friends there is a seminary graduate – and he gives me some incidents from a mainstream church perspective – of pastors who can twist scripture to suit an agenda, not to mention scandals we all hear about in local news. It kinda helps me put some of this stuff in perspective with the bigger picture called reality. It is what it is – and it's a part of my life.
~~
I just can't lump my TWI experience in one general category. It's a unique & interesting section of the mosaic called my life. Good times? You bet! Lots of them! I mean genuine good times & bittersweet lessons too – not listing them all but a few that come to mind:
– meeting my wife on the WOW field [so I married my WOW sister – ya gotta problem with that?!]
– having fun, enjoying the camaraderie & developing my musicianship while in ministry bands [i'm forever grateful to Steve H for taking the time to "heal my wooden ear" – I could actually spot a sour note by the time I left in-residence…now if I could just play what I hear in my head…guess that's in the Advanced Class
].
– the deep friendships, funny or poignant moments of seeing the best in people come out during some pretty yucky times…must be something to that…don't think most folks are gluttons for punishment…I dunno – the indomitable spirit of man maybe… making the best of a situation or something.
– developing a passion for reading – and not just the Bible.
– learning by trial & error [mostly error] the practical side of life [yup, youth is wasted on the young – fortunately, my investment in the school of Hard Knoxville is paying off now – not only in being a smart consumer but hopefully…and more importantly a whole lot wiser in decision making on the big issues of life].
– understanding the role of perception. I've gone from believing equals receiving to believing equals perceiving. In other words, my belief system shapes my mental map of reality. Nothing earth shattering about that idea – it's just something to remember whenever I take stock of my life…it sorta asks the question "how does my mental map of reality jive with what's going on around me?" Instead of wasting time & energy by depending on some imaginary law of believing, wishful thinking, or trying to manipulate reality – I look at the obvious – what is seen by the naked eye [taking off the PFAL colored glasses as Oakspear puts it]…instead of spiritualizing everything all out of proportion.
– As a Christian, painfully learning there is no viable substitute for having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
That's all for now…love & peace
T-Bone
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geisha779
Rascal,
I am glad you identify with each other and can recieve comfort from shared understanding. Maybe I just don't get it. :) Seriously.
But, included in both your thoughts are the lives and value at a given point, of others. Am I wrong?
I just see it a bit differently. You, I think, know how I feel about TWI and what happened. I rarely disagree with you on an issue.
Maybe I am remembering individuals . . . who knows. . . I lost two people recently and I am in a funny place.
Wholesale judgements tend to send up a red flag for me.
I am probably being ....y as well.
I am gunning for an A from Rumrunner in Cynicism 101 after all. . . . I will try not to be too harsh. :)
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doojable
I'm sorry - but I think this is a naive statement. The resounding call that twi was a cult was loud and clear while I was in-rez - and even before. Those of us already "in" didn't listen. Folks still took pfal. You cannot lay total blame on "our appearance of good, or purity, or any other endeavor" luring folks in.
THAT takes the blame off the bad-actors (evil-doers) and puts it where it does not belong- plain and simple.
Folks continued to join twi because they wanted to. Many of them ignored the warning that twi was a cult. Why? I don't know - but I suspect their hunger to find an answer was stronger than the warnings of the media, and the religious leaders at the time. And think about it... most of them looked at that green card in the hands of a WOW who was anything but prosperous. That WOW usually arrived to his or her destination in a beat up junker of a car, wearing tattered clothing with three other WOWs in the same condition. The folks pedaling that class were not ambassadors for those ten promises in the least.
We are human.
People find ways to be friends, sing, and find camaraderie in even the worst of situations. I refuse to feel guilty because my humanity allowed me to be nice to people and enjoy their company. THAT would be wrong. That would be handing over even more to a lying cult, a drunken leader, and the people he trained to do the same. It's dishonest in that if I do so, I take someone else's pain and I claim it as my own. It's a bastardization of compassion because I then become the focus. I make it about me and not about the true victim.
As to the "honeymoon phase" that brainfixed described at the beginning of this thread, that description was about two people in an abusive relationship. When you extend that out to a group acting on an individual, it becomes much more complex. Now you're talking about at least four identities - the "victim", the abusive cult (a system), the person who has no idea, and the person who is abusive by nature. The honeymoon phase was there for everyone, and the squeeze was put on everyone. It was like a tent covering a crowd.
Twi was already established long before any of us "got in." der victiod was already doing his dirty deeds before he went to San Francisco.
Godly things happen in the most ungodly places. That doesn't legitimize the surroundings or the bad circumstances.
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brainfixed
rascal you are absolutely correct about my intentions when writing what jesus said. if you believe that while jesus was hanging on the cross he spoke with such understanding and love for those who were crucifying him then it is a given that jesus knew what he was talking about and perceived that good people with good intentions can get involved in some very bad stuff without knowing what they're doing. can you accept the forgiveness and be at peace?
waysider great summation of things!
bolshevik i get what you're saying.
t-bone i always appreciate your posts and they cause me to think more deeply about things than sometimes i want to think.
i do have to say that my way experience was in just one category for me because i was a child forced to participate and as soon as i had a choice i took it and ran like hell far far away and started what i consider to be my real life. i had no opportunity to make good friends because once we all started telling what was happening we were kept separate. i was the proverbial "black sheep" of my family because i would not accept what was being taught and forced upon me as "godly" so i don't have good family ties now, and i made sure i had no "inconvenient" children! it took me many years to stop seeking out the only thing i knew as a "real" man and keep myself out of abusive relationships and i have no man at all right now and really don't want a man in my life for a long time. as for friends right now i have people i know that i do things with, but other than that i am my own best friend and my own best company. i have professionals to turn to in times of crisis and they all agree that there will come a point in my life when i will find myself with good friends and maybe even a good relationship, but i'm not holding my breath but am instead enjoying the freedom and healing of being good to me.
geisha do you recognize that you are doing to my words what was taught in pfal to do to the words of the bible? and do you recognize that your fierce refusal to accept people at face value is a telling characteristic of what was taught how to treat people supposedly somehow "less than" in the way? can you and i agree to disagree and leave it at that?
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geisha779
That is quite a mouthful. . . an amazingly myopic assumption and I think I will refrain from comment.
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rascal
Geisha, I hated to take a chance on making you angry. I am awfully glad that you tried to understand what I was struggling to say.
It`s just that I have been on the receiving end of somebody getting really angry over what they think I meant and attacking me on what they understood me to say rather than what my actual intentions were...sigh...call it poor communication skills on my part. It is so hard to accurately communicate here.
Thanks.
Hey, I am sorry for your loss.
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rascal
Dooj, I don`t think that you understand my position at all.
In acknowledging my culpability in supporting, and promoting people and an organization that was so destructive in no way says that I am accepting blame for what vpw did.
What I did though unwitting was a contributing factor in what enabled a destructive organization to wreak havoc in many lives.
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doojable
Actually, rascal I think I do understand your position. I've struggled with all the various angles of this situation not only in the past few posts - but over many readings of the back and forth of many posters.
I don't think you or (anyone else on this thread) want to make someone else's pain about you. I just think that to wrap yourself in that attitude has the effect of doing so. I'm trying to stand back from the oak and see the bigger picture - where the poison ivy lurks at the base of the trunk. I'm trying to point out that your position has ramifications that you aren't aware of. I have no doubt that your position has all the love you feel for people at it's core.
Perhaps when it all gets put in writing and it's a HARD COPY the many facets become more real.
I get the words -"Forgive them for they know not what they do." I get it.
But now - 30 years out - I see a much bigger web. I have perspective.
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brainfixed
i admit that it is but myopic is the only view i have of you or anybody else here and it's the only view you have of me so what're girls supposed to do? also i was writing while you and others were posting so i hadn't seen your latest post to rascal and once i had i began to get a less blurry vision of you. i have felt like you have been attacking me ever since you started doing things like taking things i said from one discussion out of context and putting them into other discussions and directly misquoting me and using those misquotes out of their context and taking things i say with no ill towards anybody and calling them "backhanded" and other things like that, and so i have also felt defensive when reading your writings. i have learned a whole lot about how i feel and perceive things about the way since i made my first post on this discussion and other discussions. for starters i learned how black and white my thinking about it all has been all these years and i have backed off of that quite a bit but i'm not going to be good at not doing it until i practice more and the only place i have to practice is here because i don't associate with anybody in my real life that has a clue of what being in the way was like. my professional support people can and do gently guide me when i use black and white thinking with them but this whole way experience has been mostly untouched because it's like a reserved little corner of my mind with a big DANGER DO NOT PROCEED sign on it all. real human beings have mixed thoughts and feelings and opinons on many things in their lives and in one situation may state something one way and in another situation state something that would be perceived as completely opposite of what they had said before. it's not underhanded but it's just human.
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rascal
Well Dooj, based on your assertions in the previous post concerning the naivety of my statement, the reason that folks got involved with twi, why they stayed...why I feel a responsibility for what I unwittingly involved people in and the resulting consequences, I have to say simply that you are mistaken in your perceptions concerning my pov....shrug.
I did whole heartedly agree with this statement that you made though.
Godly things happen in the most ungodly places. That doesn't legitimize the surroundings or the bad circumstances.
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Bolshevik
If I could narrow down my past and continuing experience with twi to a few, I would, but that's impossible. There are a whole lot of people involved.
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Bolshevik
Some simply just can't remember. doesn't mean they weren't there or didn't see it or didn't have a hand in it. It just didn't register. They really can't remember. IMO.
It is maddening though.
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waysider
Well, if this thing hasn't become convoluted enough, I'll toss in another twist.
When I was in Fellow Laborers, there came a point where I thought that, perhaps, the most reasonable thing for me to do was to completely call it quits. But herein lies the problem. Back home, I had family that were heavily involved in The Way. I had brought them into the fold. How would I now tell them I might have made a terrible mistake? I wasn't really sure if my doubts had any merit. Likewise, there were local believers who looked up to those of us who chose to become involved in the various "commitment-demanding" programs. If I was wrong, what effect would my quitting have on their stands? Was it right for me to be so selfish when I wasn't even sure if my suspicions were real? Does any of this make sense? Some things that are blatant and intentional beg to have someone claim ownership. Others simply have to be accepted as kismet. Beyond that, I really have no answers except that, if there is anything reasonable in the here and now you can do to rectify what you feel was a personal indiscretion in the past, maybe it's time to act on it. Otherwise, it's what my Grandpa used to call "crying over spilt milk". Please believe me, I don't use that expression lightly or as an attempt to minimize anyone's personal experience. But sometimes "there ain't nothing you can do but put your shoulder to the wheel and keep pushin' on".
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Bolshevik
when trying to burn bridges and ties with twi, these "good times" always come up. It is a mental weapon of theirs. IMO.
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doojable
Rascal - I said that I thought your statement was naive. I made no assertions to your POV. I happen to think that black/white thinking is no way to deal with complex issues of humanity.
I gave a different perspective regarding how and why people got involved and why they stayed - and that was admittedly incomplete.
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brainfixed
so perhaps it was easier for me to get out when i had the chance? i was of the age to be a "rebellious teenager" and i had spent most of my life waiting for the chance to run far far away and start something new so it was easy for me to cut my ties at the time, and that desire to run far far away started before being forced into the way, so maybe it wasn't just easier for me because i lacked any real ties to the way but also because my parents were people i had already wanted to get away from? this is something for me to think about.
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excathedra
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geisha779
brainfixed,
I, in no way, want you to be on the defensive with me. I was responding to your words and ideas. . . it was in no way personal. I am often less than tactful. . . it is part of my charm. . . it works better face to face. . . I have a happy countenance.
doojable
That was the most amazing post. It was concise, well written, and what I have been trying to express. It had some of the best lines I have read in ages. The "Bastardization of compassion". . . so perfect. I really enjoyed reading that post and identify with that perspective.
Rascal,
I think you are a great champion of the walking wounded. . . good on you!!
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excathedra
you people on these pages here are so awesome. thanks.
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Bolshevik
maybe.
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excathedra
it's just so weird how i stayed and a lot of this stuff has only occurred to me as i've gotten older and keep thinking and yapping etc etc
it's similar with my "earthly" lol family. my two little brothers were abused big big time by a priest
and they (family) are all (mostly) catholics going on their merry way, but i do love them and we have a lot of fun together
i have major disagreements in my head but i try to shutthe....up when we're together because i love them a lot and want to be with them
i don't know if i'm making a bit of sense. and somehow the two little brother do the same thing and understand where i'm coming from
life just sucks
and as i've said before i would like a memory in the hereafter so i can get this stuff straightened out in my head
i don't want to be a happy robot seriously
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excathedra
something else i just thought of
my heart goes out to bolsh and brainfixed more than good time folks because as i understand it these (you) people were CHILDREN ABUSED so no good times in my book sorry
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