the "good" times

[Shellon]

No, not everyone abused someone.

[brainfixed]

No, not everyone abused someone.

so say you. i say otherwise. we will more than likely never agree on this but that's ok because we don't have to agree. that's the freedom of being out from under abusive systems.

[Linda Z]

Rumrunner said:

Seems like we heard that a lot from Nazi soldiers - they were "just following orders" - they were in an abusive system that made sure that they abused others - hence they took no responsibility. That excuse never flew during the Nuremberg trials.

Wouldn't that analogy only apply if someone here were saying, "We couldn't help abusing other people because we were victims of an abusive system"?

I don't see how any exway person who didn't know about the abuse and didn't commit any abuses is guilty of anything. I'm not talking about people who saw it and turned a blind eye. I'm talking about people who just plain didn't know.

I haven't seen anywhere that Geisha excused abuse with the "I was abused" excuse.

As for feeling guilty for supporting twi unwittingly, to me that's a wasted emotion. Who knows what evil empires we might support unknowingly in this world whenever we make a purchase? We can try to buy from companies that treat their employees right, and hope that their products and all the components of those products were made in countries where children aren't forced to work in sweat shops. We can hope that the money we spend in any given store doesn't ultimately get funneled to terrorists or some power that's committing genocide somewhere in the world.

Should I feel guilty in 2009 because in 1967 I bought some pot from a dealer whose supplier was a gangster who used profits from his sales to finance hits on his enemies? Am I accountable because I once supported a political candidate who turned out to be embezzling city money? Where does the guilt trip end?

We do the best we can in this crazy world. I don't think it's healthy to be inordinantly hard on ourselves or each other.

[now I see]

Would it be inappropriate to want the institution of twi to be closed down and ended?  Is there any reason it should go on, business as usual, as it is now?  I don't see anywhere in the bible Jesus wanting the whited sepulchres to continue on doing the same.

Being ignorant of what went on is one thing, supporting it now is another.

Edited June 13, 2009 by now I see

[RumRunner]

it is an insult to me when somebody tries to convince me that since they didn't know about and didn't witness and didn't do anything abusive then their memories should remain untainted by the reality of what they were helping to perpetrate regardless of their level or lack of involvement. it's like when my mother says to me that she didn't see or know about so and so do anything to me so she has a right to hold good memories of them. but mom he raped me!

And the really disgusting shame is that it isn't singular to TWI - it happens all the time in child abuse cases - one parent (we'll choose the man) is a drug abuser and child beater - or worse - but makes sure the mother never sees it - she is "oblivious" (perhaps) and will later claim that since she didn't see it then it must have never happened - all too often to maintain her own co-dependent relationship at the expense of the children. It also happens in spousal abuse cases. It happens in jails, in courts, even in classrooms.

What nice creatures we are....

[now I see]

I am dealing with that exact thing in a child abuse case right now, where both the parents/guardian are the abusers, but since the police and child services people didn't see it, it didn't happen...verrrry frustrating!!

[brainfixed]

yes this is seen everywhere all the time. try making a police report these days about your house being robbed and you will find out that since nobody saw anything then the police will write it all down and "keep our eyes open", and beyond that it might as well go into the circular file.

there's something about participating here that is very different than just reading here and i'm not exactly sure what it is except that it becomes far more personalized internally to write my story out here and then read the comments in response instead of just reading other's stories and reading the responding comments. when i was just reading i would skim over what i felt was insensitive and argumentative comments thinking "well they're still very into way thinking". now such comments feel like a slap in my face, and i know not to take things so personally because i don't think i know anybody here and i'm not about to try and find out either, but to read the same thinking patterns here that were typically used against us kids as excuses just smacks me hard.

[doojable]

Just some questions to stir some thought here:

If I buy toothpaste at the store and the company that (ultimately) gets my money takes that money and uses it to support ...name something.... nuking whales... does that make me responsible for nuking whales even if I don't know about it?

NOW- once I find out about that action, should I decide that that is not a cause I can support, then I should do some research and find a toothpaste that supports saving whales -or at least not harming them.

But does that mean that I need to lament my healthy teeth? Or do I take responsibility for my ignorance, and take an honest approach that will be a solution? We are responsible to learn from our mistakes. If a person chooses to turn a blind eye that person bears the brunt of that decision.

If I begin to cry over my shiny pearly whites - haven't I made the "evil" about ME and not about the whales?

This is another complex issue - and a one-size-fits-all solution simply won't do.

BTW - has anyone here done some research as to what their dollars get used for?

Edited June 13, 2009 by doojable

[geisha779]

Maybe you can explain what you mean to me in simpler terms. Your first two sentences seem in stark contradiction to the last two. Comments and questions interspersed in blue. Just trying to figure out what your really mean here Geisha

Hi Rumrunner,

I was being ironic. My post was in response to the premise that although people didn't know what was going on. . . and thought they were serving a greater good. . . they were still culpable for the abuse of others.

I was trying to point out the obvious flaw in that logic without being too harsh.

It was just irony. . . "an incongruity between what is expressed and what is intended" it was so outrageous I thought it was clear. :)

[RumRunner]

I haven't seen anywhere that Geisha excused abuse with the "I was abused" excuse.

Linda dear - I never implied she excused anyone - I asked for further explanation as I did not understand her post. Dear - lighten up on me - after all these years you on some crusade against the gift of sarcastic cynical evil that god blessed me with since birth? Or perhaps you just like reading things into my posts that a) I NEVER SAID and b) I NEVER IMPLIED. Or perhaps you are just jealous of the levels of evil I am capable of. Be nice to me Linda or the tribe of little trolls that live underground and talk to me late at night will visit you at work.

It was just irony. . . "an incongruity between what is expressed and what is intended" it was so outrageous I thought it was clear. :)

Thanks Geisha - I was never very good with irony - sarcasm and cynicism however are my friends

Edited June 13, 2009 by RumRunner

[geisha779]

Would it be inappropriate to want the institution of twi to be closed down and ended? Is there any reason it should go on, business as usual, as it is now? I don't see anywhere in the bible Jesus wanting the whited sepulchres to continue on doing the same.

Being ignorant of what went on is one thing, supporting it now is another.

Of course shut em down!! Expose them. . . tell it like it is. . . Yes! No one here is defending TWI.

They need to go away. ASAP. It is an ugly cult. It hurts people. It consumes them and spits out the bones. . . No doubt.

And you are right. . . being ignorant as opposed to supporting them knowing are two very differing things.

The blame game however, can be toxic. I own up to my sins. . . but, if anyone thinks I am taking on the sins of others. . . they have me mixed up with a VERY different person.

Edited June 13, 2009 by geisha779

[now I see]

I own up to my sins. . . but, if anyone thinks I am taking on the sins of others. . . they have me mixed up with a VERY different person.

I can't imagine anyone doing that, it would be irrational and unfair, I don't think anyone here views anyone else here like that....unless your inicials are LCM? :huh:

[geisha779]

I can't imagine anyone doing that, it would be irrational and unfair, I don't think anyone here views anyone else here like that....unless your inicials are LCM? :huh:

Yes it would be irrational wouldn't it. . . and no my initials are not LCM or JC. :)

[Linda Z]

RR, I didn't get it. Your Nazi analogy sounded like you were applying it to her logic. Mea culpa.

And hey, trolls at work are nothing new. I probably wouldn't even notice another one.

[socks]

So...as long as I trash VPW and the Way generally, my "shields are up"? C'mon Socks, Was VPW your pal?...not mine! Are you saying that we shouldn't be criticizing him? In spite of what he did?...I will continue to call bull sh *t on VPW and the Way as long as I post here and I certainly don't consider it having my shields up! Anyone who wants to defend the pervert Wierwille or their time spent in a cult is free to do so...if you interpret the responses to someone who defends them as being "branded and tattoed"...well, that's merely YOUR perspective and speaks for itself.

The shields/up comment meant that on GS you're protected.

You (or anyone) can say just about anything you want - like call JP's kid a "punk" online and get away with it. (that's just one example and no I don't have anything to do with his camp deal/whatever it is and have no interest in it) As long as it's negative about the Way or Way information. I've posted this before it's nothing new from me - anyone can get pretty foul in what they say as long as it's on the negative.

You and I both know that in the real world you'd have the long end of a 2X4 stuffed up your rear if you talked that way to people. But in the online world imaginations soar and the rhetoric steams. GS has become less than it's promise of late, in my opinion. I have nothing to contribute for the most part so I don't post much. Big whoopdee doo. If you don't care, that's cool, I don't either.

I don't consider what I'm posting to be in "defense" of the Way, VPW, etc. etc. so if that's what you mean, kindly stow it. I'm not defending the Way, VPW, or you.

Speaking of which - you're right - this is my perspective and it speaks for itself. And no, Ham, I'm glad to see you understand your "spirituality" doesn't rely on me. I never said it did and can't remember even ever thinking that it might. So we're clear on that. I hope.

[Linda Z]

Socksness:

I have nothing to contribute for the most part so I don't post much. Big whoopdee doo. If you don't care....

I care. You're one of the people I consider well balanced on the topics at hand. You call a spade a spade but you don't use it to bury everyone. I appreciate that. A lot.

[Ham]

You (or anyone) can say just about anything you want - like call JP's kid a "punk" online and get away with it.

I don't think that was my comment though Socks.. I had quite a few other ones, however..

I went to the horses mouth first. I don't think I'd call him a "punk" for stepping into grandaddy's shoes.. I think I've outlined a few descriptions as pathetic.. conned, suckered, taken advantage of.. hustled.. mainly for his name, and by whom?

1. By an aging, self-deceived (in my honest opinion) for lack of better words.. maybe I'm not educated enough yet.. "nutcase" whose prior mission in life was to trespass on some kind of sacred gravesite known as "the way".. no, no self agrandizement "adopting" young vicster II to further the "mission" now, would there be?.

2. Pa. For crying out loud.. wasn't he WELL AWARE of the abuses and conditions that prevailed and even eventually led to his ejection from the ancestral land? And his kind of "revenge" is to take it back through the name of his own offspring? The words and contempt I have for this, I will not say here..

I know far more than they think.. every last bit of "spiritual" itch and intuition I've had has been more than abundantly confirmed..

three salvos of emails, and I get the same arrogance as I'd expect from gramps..

the "young man" should be in grad school.. he's apparently "brilliant".. and somehow, they've conned him into thinking this little camp adventure is some kind of "professional" development..

the "school" he came from is likely enraged that I didn't take up these issues with them.. tough cookies.. you made him, let's see you clean it all up..

Edited June 13, 2009 by Ham

[Bolshevik]

I seem to recall Lindah goin' off in front of a group about JP, (was he the one who sang WWroad &hh29?). Tore his whole being up I guess you could say. I'm sure his kids would be fair game too.

[Ham]

Yeah..

that kind of treatment was typical of the conditions of the times leading to his expulsion..

now, why would want to regain control over a system that affords the same kind of abuse?

The "young man".. I feel more pity for him.. they had a real treasure of sorts..

A lot of this is just politics and human nature.. you'd think they'd have grown above it.. maybe that's asking too much..

If I lived, to see rosies head on a stck.. and I really think this is the attitude here.. wouldn't it be pathetic? Alive, at least she's still worth a laugh..

Edited June 13, 2009 by Ham

[Ham]

so.. why drag the YOUNG MAN into all of this? He probably doesn't have a clue of who the fox is, or linder.. obviously doesn't have a stinking clue what gramps really was, when he wasn't onstage..

the blood is on your heads, suckers..

[Ham]

If you don't like your messages coming this way.. tough..

[brainfixed]

My post was in response to the premise that although people didn't know what was going on. . . and thought they were serving a greater good. . . they were still culpable for the abuse of others.

culpable is usually a word used in legal circles and is usually used for the purpose of finding guilt in a criminal matter or fiduciary responsibility in a civil matter. according to the the free dictionary the definition of culpable is culpable adj. sufficiently responsible for criminal acts or negligence to be at fault and liable for the conduct. Sometimes culpability rests on whether the person realized the wrongful nature of his/her actions and thus should take the blame.

i don't remember anybody participating in this discussion trying to make anybody who had not done the actual abuse culpable, but maybe i missed something. if by me saying that i think anybody involved in the way for more than a few months abused somebody somehow because abuse was institutionalized in the way means to anyone that i hold anybody but those who actually abused me or ignored the abuse culpable then everything else i've been saying is being ignored because i have gone to great lengths to repeatedly state otherwise.

if by rascal feeling a sense of responsibility is in anybody's mind equal to her feeling culpable then i feel that something is not being understood either in what culpability is or in what rascal said or in what rascal feels or maybe i didn't comprehend her correctly. getting an acknowledgement from her of what it was costing others to be in the way has had a healing effect on me. her acknowledgement was not an admission of culpability in my mind, and it was not equal to her saying she was responsible for anything in my mind, and i certainly hope that her good memories of her children and her family are not guilt-ridden and i hope nobody else's is either. what rascal did differently than anybody else that i recall was to say that looking back she can see what it was costing others while she was having her good times. she didn't apologize for her good times. she didn't argue on behalf of her good times. she didn't rationalize her good times. she simply acknowledged that she could look back and see the cost of good people having good times in the way.

my first point was and still remains the point that i think rascal got completely and that is that the way was an abusive system that used the good times of the good people to cull more victims.

also there is much going on in this discussion that i don't even understand because it seems to be things going on between other participants that i simply have no clue about and don't want to have any clue about.

but geisha please hear me because i do not hold you culpable for anything.

[rascal]

Well said Brainfixed.

I however have to agree with shell on one point....In my experience, not everyone was necessarily abusive in twi.

Culpable? Yeah...I guess that I begrudge every damned penny that I sent in that paid for the food to feed those fatuous, sanctimonious, asses, to buy their smokes and booze and toys, to pay for their housing, their bedding, their furniture, their clothing, the shampoo and soap to wash their slimy selves off with..to pay the electricity and equipment to produce their lying publications.... I deplore every hour of witnessing that brought new unsuspecting victims within the reach of those sleeze balls....that I provided housing toilet paper televisions, made posters in order to run their classes promoting their ministry.... our devoted selfless efforts simply the cover from which the darkness worked from behind...and the means by which it flourished.

Jeemany the irony of thousands of hours spent in prayer to God for these guys for their ministry, knowing now how they were actually raping and pillaging in his name and using bible scriptures meant to guide and deliver to instead ensure obedience and compliance......

As far as I am concerned, it doesn`t matter HOW great my motives were....these guys simply could NOT have functioned without our whole hearted support....without the legitimacy of our lives to hide behind.

I am not denying that good times happened, or that there weren`t good people involved that did good things. What I feel is that without the appearance of earnest people in Godly endeavors...the evil would have had nothing to hide behind... people would have recognized twi for what it was much sooner, maybe before becoming ensnared.

I think that excathedra said it best when she said something to the effect that ...God may have worked with us while in twi...but that doesn`t mean that he liked it.

So...yes I suppose that I do feel a measure of responsibility for the damage wrought. Yes I feel that when I view my twi involvement in hind sight...knowing now what was happening to so many unsuspecting, innocent people...the children who were powerless...sigh....that it is very difficult for me to think of them as *good* times any more.

Edited June 13, 2009 by rascal

[geisha779]

Maybe there is a disconnect between what you write and what you actually mean, I choose to assume it is a communication issue, because otherwise I would have to assume it is a "verbal" slight of hand.

the words of jesus ring in my heart these days, and they are all the more poignant when reading these things. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". jesus knew.

You wrote this after Rascal expressed HER view that all in TWI were culpable for the abuse of others. Who was Jesus speaking of when he said this? The men who crucified Him. I never crucified you or met you or touched you or have even spoken to you in person. The implication here is that you must forgive those who didn't know what was going on while you were being abused. That there is some act to forgive. I don't accept responsibility for your abuse. That rests squarely on the shoulders of the one who abused you. You don't need to forgive others for something they didn't do.

i do not hold everybody ever involved in the way responsible for the horrors perpetrated. i could because every little penny sent to hq was assisting the perpetrators, and every other action to promote the way was in the end the thing that kept the horrors happening. but i would feel stupid to hold everybody ever involved responsible. as i've said more than once or twice it is the looking back and acknowledging how everybody was used to perpetrate and perpetuate the abusive system.

it is an insult to me when somebody tries to convince me that since they didn't know about and didn't witness and didn't do anything abusive then their memories should remain untainted by the reality of what they were helping to perpetrate regardless of their level or lack of involvement. it's like when my mother says to me that she didn't see or know about so and so do anything to me so she has a right to hold good memories of them. but mom he raped me!

You DON'T hold everyone responsible, but you COULD?? Well, that does set you up as a magnaminous doesn't it? It is a thin veneer of generousity here because you then explain in broad terms, some vague concept that ultimately assigns responsibility to all.

But read on. You are insulted by a few memories that belong to someone else. That implies they actually have something to do with you. I reject that outright. You were probably not even born when some of us remember a few good people and times. We are talking about complex, multifaceted, living, breathing, human beings when we speak of those involved in TWI. Each must be judged individually by their actions, intent, and according to the circumstances in which they acted. Any DECENT judge will tell you that.

You may see it as similar to how you and your Mom communicate. It is just not the same thing. According to you. . . your Mom abused you. That is a complex and personal relationship with someone who you have incredibly close ties to. A history. A plethora of emotion and obviously a whirlwind of issues to work out with.

It is a weak and unfair comparison.

and anybody in the way more than few months abused somebody somewhere somehow in some way. it was institutionalized that abusiveness was "from god".

Okay, now you ARE holding ALL people responsible for some form of abuse. What is the cut-off? One month, 6 months, 8 months? PFAL grads are less culpable? Intermediate and Advanced Class Grads more so? What is the scale we are using to lay ABUSE at the feet of others? That is a mighty big accusation. . . I think we should know the cut-off.

so say you. i say otherwise. we will more than likely never agree on this but that's ok because we don't have to agree. that's the freedom of being out from under abusive systems.

This is in response to Shellon. A woman who has apparently endured great loss and tragedy in her life and had to deal with it working through the myriad of issues that must be present from her time in TWI. I was floored by her courage and by her integrity. She does not blame others for the death of her spouse. The most painful loss we endure. Did you even read who was first and foremost in her thoughts???? Her children.

There was so much quiet dignity and integrity in that post. . . I was awed. Take note. No verbal jabs. . . no blame assignment.

there's something about participating here that is very different than just reading here and i'm not exactly sure what it is except that it becomes far more personalized internally to write my story out here and then read the comments in response instead of just reading other's stories and reading the responding comments. when i was just reading i would skim over what i felt was insensitive and argumentative comments thinking "well they're still very into way thinking". now such comments feel like a slap in my face, and i know not to take things so personally because i don't think i know anybody here and i'm not about to try and find out either, but to read the same thinking patterns here that were typically used against us kids as excuses just smacks me hard.

This is so back-handed. So, insulting. To be frank, it is very manipulative. Who is it that is excusing away child abuse? Who is it exhibiting "Way thinking"? What patterns? Because, to have someone consider an issue. . .and express an opposing viewpoint. . . is not "Way Thinking". I spent six years, working diligently, to learn to think. Sound funny. I went to school post TWI and gained two degrees from very good colleges. I learned to consider an issue from more than one perspective.

This one cries out for at least that. Because we are speaking of fellow human beings. . . I choose to really consider the cost of the blame game. Hardly "Way Thinking".

I have yet to see anyone exhibit "Way Thinking" on this thread or even defend TWI. I have however, seen people point out the complexity of the issue regarding individuals.

but geisha please hear me because i do not hold you culpable for anything.

I appreciate that. . . as we have never met, and I would not know you if I tripped over you, but please reread what you have written.

I have actually been to hell and back for my kids. I adore them. ADORE them. I have two surviving children. . . a son and a daughter. Their father and I have provided them with love and stability. . . a stellar education. . . my son goes to college this fall, a home, and the knowledge that they are unconditionally loved. The sun actually shines from my son. My beautiful daughter has had her share of issues, but we are there every step of the way. If I told you some of the things we have done for her. . . provided for her. . . and helped her through. . . and what it cost us in our lives. . . you would probably ask me to adopt you.

So, it offensive in the extreme for you to even imply in any manner that I or others are complicit in what your own mother did to you.

I can have compassion and concern for you and remember some other people with kindness. I am capable of both emotions. One does not mean the other does not exist.

Edited June 13, 2009 by geisha779

[rascal]

Geisha, you seem pretty tough on brainfixed.

I understand what she has said and can identify with her post. She in turns seems to have received value and grasped my meanings without perceiving it as a personal attack or affront. We have derived value from each others posts...received a measure of comfort in understanding.

Neither (as far as I can tell) are being intentionally offensive, just posting our own personal thoughts feelings impressions of our lives and our perceptions post twi. Is that ok? Do we all have to agree here?