the "good" times

[chockfull]

Actually this here thread presents what I would label as an "ethical dilemma".

Ex: I had good times in TWI, and associated with people who have proven to be of questionable morals. Also, since leaving TWI I have become more aware of the dark side of TWI and all it encompasses. I see that I was somewhat blinded to that while in TWI.

So here's the dilemma. How do I view my time in TWI? How do I view my old friends in TWI? If I view my time as all evil then my life takes on a shadow over it of negativity and I'm tempted to become bitter. If I view my time as all good my life takes on a shadow of delusion and I'm tempted to become a "pollyanna" moron again. So it seems like the healthy alternative is somewhere in the middle. Yet when I try to talk about where the middle is I can't seem to pinpoint it. And it seems like other people are too far one way or the other. Too far one way, and it leads to becoming a bitter old person with no friends. Too far the other, and it leads to becoming a delusional old person with moral Alzheimers. And if I talk in generalities, I'm going to p!ss someone off as they will interpret it as criticism.

I don't think there is a real answer, as it's an ethical dilemma. So we can all continue to bounce around the middle of it and never get there.

[brainfixed]

good thinking things you've both said here. thanks.

what i don't understand is how come people think that if the good times are viewed with an eye other than what chockfull aptly called "pollyana" that means they were any less good or must in some way take away from the experience or the people involved? i'm not asking that people lessen the good of what happened or lessen the people involved, but i am asking that people look at the whole and how those good times and good people were used to keep people around. didn't anybody else experience any leadership from the twig level on up using the good stories and the good people as "examples" of the "abundant life"? look at the green card again sometime and then compare those "promises" to your good experiences and then maybe ask yourselves if that had anything to do with keeping you in the way either consciously or subconsciously. what about that infomercial video? didn't anybody ever experience somebody in the way saying anything like "well isn't your life better now that you've taken the class? and didn't the class do what it said it would do on the green card?" is it unthinkable to separate out those good times and good people and look at them with the understanding that it was all while in the middle of a cult and it was all a part of the lure without also feeling like looking at such things takes away from the good times or the good people? because backing away from the individual instances and the individual people and looking at the whole does not take away from either but does allow one to comprehend how they were duped and manipulated. and i'm am NOT saying that it was the good times and the good people that duped and manipulated anybody, but i am saying that if there had not been those good times and good people then who would have stayed involved in the way international? and i am also saying that most likely not very many would have stayed which means that i am also saying that those good times and good people were used by the machine to keep people as victims.

[T-Bone]

good thinking things you've both said here. thanks.

what i don't understand is how come people think that if the good times are viewed with an eye other than what chockfull aptly called "pollyana" that means they were any less good or must in some way take away from the experience or the people involved? i'm not asking that people lessen the good of what happened or lessen the people involved, but i am asking that people look at the whole and how those good times and good people were used to keep people around. didn't anybody else experience any leadership from the twig level on up using the good stories and the good people as "examples" of the "abundant life"? look at the green card again sometime and then compare those "promises" to your good experiences and then maybe ask yourselves if that had anything to do with keeping you in the way either consciously or subconsciously. what about that infomercial video? didn't anybody ever experience somebody in the way saying anything like "well isn't your life better now that you've taken the class? and didn't the class do what it said it would do on the green card?" is it unthinkable to separate out those good times and good people and look at them with the understanding that it was all while in the middle of a cult and it was all a part of the lure without also feeling like looking at such things takes away from the good times or the good people? because backing away from the individual instances and the individual people and looking at the whole does not take away from either but does allow one to comprehend how they were duped and manipulated. and i'm am NOT saying that it was the good times and the good people that duped and manipulated anybody, but i am saying that if there had not been those good times and good people then who would have stayed involved in the way international? and i am also saying that most likely not very many would have stayed which means that i am also saying that those good times and good people were used by the machine to keep people as victims.

A guy got me signed up for the class using the benefits on the back of the Green Card – just your typical salesman techniques. I thought all I needed was the class…one time…but you're encouraged to take PFAL again and again…and keep your nose in the collaterals. That's part of what kept me involved for as long as I was - chasing after the elusive benefits listed on the back of the Green Card.

The "good times", the more abundant life, everything you could ever need & want was all wrapped up in a convoluted package – your continued involvement with TWI AND of course mastery of PFAL [two things that will never be fulfilled, mind you]. It's embarrassing to admit it – but bottom line is - I was stupid enough to buy into that BS! At some point in this process, as you work your way up the hierarchy – even if you have the best of intentions – you've figured out the way to succeed in this outfit is to absorb the bullchi+ rather than analyze it - and that makes you "qualified" to deceive others. Delusion begets delusion.

I think there may be a combination of many things that entangled folks – some good, some bad. Developing genuine friendships would be one of the good things for example – and we all could list a bunch of stuff on either side. One thing I've noticed since I joined Grease Spot – as time goes by, I use less of a broad brush stroke when thinking about my experiences…I dunno a more thoughtful approach maybe – using a finer brush…more detail. I like how Chockfull put it – see my next post.

Edited June 4, 2009 by T-Bone

[Bolshevik]

what or who is "the machine"? who did the duping and the manipulating? I think people do it to themselves. "good times" kept some in but not others.

"good people" is a meaningless phrase. bad things came from "good people" far as I can tell. bad things come from good intentions too.

there are no "good people" or "good times". just mental perceptions.

at what cost are people willing to pay to hold on to them or let them go? If having good memories is what matters most, perhaps things like twi are not "evil". Facing reality is for fools. If it makes someone feel good, feel like they are loved and loving others, it's okay.

I sometimes think of it like a marriage where one partner is happy as a lark for years and years. Then one day finds out the other was involved in numerous relationships from day one. Should they give up those happy memories? Why have a sour attitude about it? They had a good time.

Holding on to good memories for me crushes the idea that anything "good" in life is real. twi was and is a big fat lie made by everyone involved. If there's any value in them, imo, it's in learning what not to do/perceive/believe/fall for/etc.

[T-Bone]

Actually this here thread presents what I would label as an "ethical dilemma".

Ex: I had good times in TWI, and associated with people who have proven to be of questionable morals. Also, since leaving TWI I have become more aware of the dark side of TWI and all it encompasses. I see that I was somewhat blinded to that while in TWI.

So here's the dilemma. How do I view my time in TWI? How do I view my old friends in TWI? If I view my time as all evil then my life takes on a shadow over it of negativity and I'm tempted to become bitter. If I view my time as all good my life takes on a shadow of delusion and I'm tempted to become a "pollyanna" moron again. So it seems like the healthy alternative is somewhere in the middle. Yet when I try to talk about where the middle is I can't seem to pinpoint it. And it seems like other people are too far one way or the other. Too far one way, and it leads to becoming a bitter old person with no friends. Too far the other, and it leads to becoming a delusional old person with moral Alzheimers. And if I talk in generalities, I'm going to p!ss someone off as they will interpret it as criticism.

I don't think there is a real answer, as it's an ethical dilemma. So we can all continue to bounce around the middle of it and never get there.

I really like your post! In my opinion that's a healthy approach. I can't lump everything in one basket….even looking at the worst of my experiences – maybe I can turn Kool-Aid into lemonade by digging a little deeper - giving thought to what lessons I've learned. As a kid I burned my fingers playing with matches – that certainly help form my super cautious attitude toward any situation that has risk of a potential fire hazard. So too, I continue to work on critical thinking skills after leaving TWI.

Edited June 4, 2009 by T-Bone

[excathedra]

well, i am glad i won't join a cult anymore except for greasespot (see my big smile). i have such an addictive personality !

i believe i was duped. i do believe i could have duped myself. i was young, screwed up

and now i'm old and screwed up

--

i did have a pretty recent experience where i totally trusted this other gal (woman) and thought she was a dear friend

she screwed me over really bad

DUH

--

my best friend was in the way, but we were best friends before the way

--

i like a lot of the people i met

--

but i don't like veepee

**************

And although it saddens me to see people I like getting angry with each other, in a way I think it's healthy for people to say what they really mean instead of tap-dancing around.

i appreciate that too, linzee. thanks for saying it.

i do remember when everything i said was shot to sheet. i had to leave the boards for about eight months (i made up for it though, didn't i ?)

so i do understand how that feels, no matter what your perspective is

[geisha779]

I have to agree with T-bone . . . as time passes I don't use such broad brushstrokes to remember my time in TWI.

Can I gently point something out to you. You start out this post with a huge assumption. You assume that :"what i don't understand is how come people think that if the good times are viewed with an eye other than what chockfull aptly called "pollyana" that means they were any less good or must in some way take away from the experience or the people involved?"

I just have to ask you. . . who said this? Who thinks this? Why assume that is how we view our individual and varied experiences?. . . This seems to assume some of us see things in black and white. Life is lived in shages of gray brainfixed, even our time in TWI was not black and white.

but i am asking that people look at the whole and how those good times and good people were used to keep people around. didn't anybody else experience any leadership from the twig level on up using the good stories and the good people as "examples" of the "abundant life"? look at the green card again sometime and then compare those "promises" to your good experiences and then maybe ask yourselves if that had anything to do with keeping you in the way either consciously or subconsciously.

Yes this did happen. . . no doubt. But, some of us forged friendships around other things. Young moms and newly married couples. . . I used to hang out with a group of women who had or were having babies at the same time I was. If you are a mum, you know that this is a pretty consuming time in one's life. I had back to back babies. We never really talked about TWI or VP or "the word". We talked about pregnancy, nursing, and DIETS. We swapped maternity and baby clothes and we shopped bargains with each other. We clipped coupons and fixed up our homes. We shared fabric and sewing machines, curtains and furniture. We helped each other move, we ate meals together, and we talked on the phone. I knew them through TWI. We used to take our kids to Little Folks or Children's fellowship together. We used to have lunches.

I knew these people through TWI. . . we were in the same branch. But, it was not all about keeping us around. We became friends. I would have hung out with them if I wasn't in TWI. They were nice people, a bit nutty, but so was I.

There were other places I lived that were different. I was a WOW family coordinator. . . single and with other people and yes, much of that was designed to keep us in. It was forced family and friendship. . . in situations which made it from need more than choice.

Even more. . . other places and people were different. I lived in a Way home with a woman I swear was the spawn of Satan. I still give a shudder when I think of her.

is it unthinkable to separate out those good times and good people and look at them with the understanding that it was all while in the middle of a cult and it was all a part of the lure without also feeling like looking at such things takes away from the good times or the good people? because backing away from the individual instances and the individual people and looking at the whole does not take away from either but does allow one to comprehend how they were duped and manipulated.

What makes you think we have not come to terms with that? I know I was manipulated and duped. I have said it more than once on this thread. I am pretty sure most people here know . . and know the extent. I am under no illusions as to what I was involved in and how I was used and manipulated.

What makes you think that there could not have been genuine friendship. . . despite the cult? People are multi-faceted. They like each other. . . or they don't. When forced into a familial relationship because of "the Word" or the "Household" it is one thing, but sometimes people just click.

One of the best friends I ever had became my friend initially because we both liked Elton John.

and i'm am NOT saying that it was the good times and the good people that duped and manipulated anybody, but i am saying that if there had not been those good times and good people then who would have stayed involved in the way international? and i am also saying that most likely not very many would have stayed which means that i am also saying that those good times and good people were used by the machine to keep people as victims.

A good part of the reason I stayed in the Way was because I thought I was serving God. Scratch that, God was lucky to serve me. I was psychologically persuaded that a bizzare collection of beliefs was actual Christianity and I knew the bible better than most ministers. To leave would be to turn my back on God. It would be to walk away from the ONLY place I could get the truth.To leave the hedge of God's protection and die a horrible death. Now, some of the people and places I lived. . . we fed off each other and kept that alive. But some times were different than others. Not all black and white.

Life had a way of carrying on while in TWI. As I changed, and my circumstances changed, my priorities began changing. It was also the time I was becomming an adult. I was 19 when I went to twig. . . 26 when I had my last child. . . Do you see what I am saying? We still lived our lives. Hubby was 17 when he took the class. . . 25 when we married. He was in 15 years . . . me less.

It just took us awhile to make the break, but it began a few years before we left. I know it was the same for many I was around. We all left together, the entire state basically, and it wasn't too difficult for most of us.

Everyone's experience, while similar is still unique.

Edited June 5, 2009 by geisha779

[excathedra]

yeah, i don't like black and white thinking too much anymore no matter what it applies to

and youth is something. it's so great and it so sucks at times :) mwah

i'm not trying to make light of anything

i don't think i stayed because of good times because it mostly sucked

but i convinced myself otherwise or didn't to be the bad person thrown out or whatev

[Linda Z]

exsie said:

i do remember when everything i said was shot to sheet. i had to leave the boards for about eight months (i made up for it though, didn't i ?)

so i do understand how that feels, no matter what your perspective is

That's one reason I love ya, my friend. You show so much empathy for others, even others who look at things very differently from how you look at them.

Being able to put yourself in other people's shoes and care how they feel is a mighty fine quality.

[Ham]

so.. what's the consensus.. or conclusion here?

let me say this *nicely* as I possibly can..

You've had your.. what would I call it.. kumbaya moment, around the camp fire..

what about the rest of us? (or more specifically, me..)

I'm left with the image of a God who will heal and love unconditionally.. on one hand.. and then on the other hand, turn around and abuse, rape and pillage..

I laugh.. because that's all I can do. it's far beyond any kind of logic, or logical conclusion I have any possibility of arriving at...

and mr. socksie thought I was just making fun of Linda.. it's just a tad bit more than that..

but don't worry.. my spirituality does not depend on you.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Ham

[brainfixed]

Good question, brainfixed.

I have to leave for work in a couple minutes. I'll give my short answer now, but I won't be able to look in here again until tonight.

That was only one positive experience I had with vpw. There were others. There were also plenty of negative experiences I had that could be traced right back to decisions VPW made. I'm not in the camp that thinks everything went south just because vpw died, although lcm did seem to make an art form out of screwing things up more than they already were.

So the short answer is that if I hadn't been healed that day, it probably wouldn't have changed my view of my years in twi today. I'd still view it as a mix of good times and bad times.

As for where this thread has gone, it's typical, brainfixed. These sorts of threads, on topics that get heated, seem to have a mind of their own, regardless of the good intentions of whoever started them. They just go where they go. And although it saddens me to see people I like getting angry with each other, in a way I think it's healthy for people to say what they really mean instead of tap-dancing around.

thank you lindaz.

geisha779 i hear you and have heard you clearly, but i don't think you're hearing me, but i don't care now because i have found myself explaining things to you over and over again just to come back and see you demanding further explanation over things that i said very clearly several times, so that's that as far as i'm concerned with your understanding of what i've been writing.

ham, i don't think there is a consensus here, but that's ok because who needs consensus when having our own minds is more fun?

[Ham]

I'm glad you appreciate that..

:)

[brainfixed]

I'm glad you appreciate that..

:)

oh the secrets we could keep if only people were mature enough.

[geisha779]

thank you lindaz.

geisha779 i hear you and have heard you clearly, but i don't think you're hearing me, but i don't care now because i have found myself explaining things to you over and over again just to come back and see you demanding further explanation over things that i said very clearly several times, so that's that as far as i'm concerned with your understanding of what i've been writing.

I guess it was about as clear as mud to me. I must be dense or just not understand sweeping generalizations and one size fits all for lives lived.

I felt like posting on this thread in truth because I found the intial thread a bit insulting. . . the ensuing back tracking and muddied clarification haven't left me any less offended.

I love this. . . Kumbaya moments. Yep, that is what my time in TWI was. . . a big old campfire.

Rape disguised as healing was not limited to the motorcoach, abortion was coerced as a form a birth control, but okay with God. . . . stalking was a pass time for some bored Corps. . . . poverty a way of life. . . Way Homes filled with dysfunctional cult members who may or may not be clinically insane. . . you took your chances. WOW a year of life lost to corporate abuse. . .

Screwed up lives and years of recovery.

A few nice people and good times salvaged from that mess. . . from years lived in one's past. . . . and I don't get it?

I get it.

Maybe individual recovery requires some of us to have more than one perspective. Maybe I just wanted you to get that.

I didn't demand ANYTHING from you . . . explanation or clarification. I just don't agree with you. But take heart. . . the calvary will ride in.

Rumrunner, I should have listened to you in the first place. . . .

Edited June 5, 2009 by geisha779

[Ham]

I really think.. some of those who were damaged the most were those who were allegedly physically healed by "doc" vic's "ministry"..

it wasn't "gifts" of healing or healings..they've paid, and paid, and paid again..

tell me if I'm mistaken..

[chockfull]

I'm left with the image of a God who will heal and love unconditionally.. on one hand.. and then on the other hand, turn around and abuse, rape and pillage..

You know one of the things taught about manifestations - gifts of healing specifically, I do believe is true. Each healing itself is an energized gift from God and not dependant upon the quality of the person ministering. It's like someone who walked up to you and gave you $500 on the street. You can spend the $500, it is real. But does that mean the person giving it to you is not of questionable character?

I really liked that one movie Steve Martin was in - Leap of Faith (1992), where he is the fake evangelist in the small town. The kid on crutches who's the brother of the girl Steve's pursuing gets healed genuinely. Then Steve's so ashamed by his actions he has to leave town. Great movie - kind of on topic to this stuff.

My problems with TWI are nothing to do with God. He's remained unchanged. They are with people who say they are representing God, yet the fruit of their lives says otherwise. And systems which support, promote, and promulgate this false fruit.

[brainfixed]

You know one of the things taught about manifestations - gifts of healing specifically, I do believe is true. Each healing itself is an energized gift from God and not dependant upon the quality of the person ministering. It's like someone who walked up to you and gave you $500 on the street. You can spend the $500, it is real. But does that mean the person giving it to you is not of questionable character?

I really liked that one movie Steve Martin was in - Leap of Faith (1992), where he is the fake evangelist in the small town. The kid on crutches who's the brother of the girl Steve's pursuing gets healed genuinely. Then Steve's so ashamed by his actions he has to leave town. Great movie - kind of on topic to this stuff.

My problems with TWI are nothing to do with God. He's remained unchanged. They are with people who say they are representing God, yet the fruit of their lives says otherwise. And systems which support, promote, and promulgate this false fruit.

your last paragraph says it for me quite well. thank you. i am a little bit jumpy with the idea that the quality of a person has no impact on the actual healing because if the quality of the person is part of an abusive system that has worn low a person's natural boundaries against abuse then the "healing" may "manifest" itself simply by subliminal suggestion instead of reality and people could go many years "believing" they are "healed" when in fact they are exacerbating an underlying condition by playing out being "healed".

[doojable]

Just throwing out an idea here:

Sometimes I think there's a journey that arises from what a person needs at the time:

*Some need to forget - because remembering is too painful

*Some need to remember - because forgetting is too costly

*Some need to rebel - because rebellion offers some form of control

*Some need to conform - because conforming offers some peace from the friction

*Some need to speak out - because they have been silenced too long

*Some need to listen - because listening offers perspective

There is no order, rhyme or reason to this journey. Some may not need any of it - they just turn their back and walk away.

There is no formula, no cookie cutter answer as to when or how a person travels from a cult. Cookie cutter answers and quick fixes never really do much. Wasn't it the search for a quick and easy answer that started the mess for many of us?

Just one class...

Just these ten promises...

Just this one green card...

Just one year...

Just three more years...

Then - a lifetime of "commitment"...

The last "ribbet" from the soup pot as it comes to a boil...

Of course the journey back to some kind of life without a cult, without the quick fixes, is going to involve a process that is both complex and individualized.

The "good times" fit in that complex mess and recovery in different ways according to what a person needs at the time.

[brainfixed]

doojable i like what you've said a whole lot. thank you. it helps more than you might know.

[doojable]

doojable i like what you've said a whole lot. thank you. it helps more than you might know.

You're welcome, brainfixed.

Like I said - I was just musing. There's a lot to be said for letting your brain rattle and seeing what falls out - kind of like a craps shoot for thoughts.

This time was good, sometimes - well... you know how it goes.

Thinking for yourself is great - isn't it?

LOL:

cult class - $100 (or more - or less)

endless other classes - $1000 (or more)

therapy - $10,000 (give or take some)

Independent thought: PRICELESS!

[Linda Z]

Great points, Chockfull.

brainfixed said:

your last paragraph says it for me quite well. thank you. i am a little bit jumpy with the idea that the quality of a person has no impact on the actual healing because if the quality of the person is part of an abusive system that has worn low a person's natural boundaries against abuse then the "healing" may "manifest" itself simply by subliminal suggestion instead of reality and people could go many years "believing" they are "healed" when in fact they are exacerbating an underlying condition by playing out being "healed".

I totally get that the healing isn't dependent on the person ministering but on God. Knowing that God is bigger than any system, program, approach, or action cooked up by man is what helped my departure from twi be a lot less painful than it might have been.

I know what you're talking about, brainfixed. I saw people during my years in twi who thought they were healed when they weren't. They needed medical or mental health treatment. I also saw my share of genuine healings, of everything from heroin addiction to mental illness to physical problems.

In my case, the healing was quite obvious and unnaturally rapid. I had a deep cut down the middle of my entire face from going through the windshield of a car. Except for a few scabs, it went entirely away over the course of a 3-day weekend. And I couldn't walk, then I could. If God's hands were tied by the sins and shortcomings of people, we'd be in a world of hurt.

Edited to add: I have a very tiny scar below my lower lip from that cut. It serves to remind me of two things: God's goodness and to pay careful attention while driving. :)

[geisha779]

doojable,

What you posted is a pretty good understanding of individuals and a healthy perspective.

Thanks for that. . . it touched me.

[chockfull]

your last paragraph says it for me quite well. thank you. i am a little bit jumpy with the idea that the quality of a person has no impact on the actual healing because if the quality of the person is part of an abusive system that has worn low a person's natural boundaries against abuse then the "healing" may "manifest" itself simply by subliminal suggestion instead of reality and people could go many years "believing" they are "healed" when in fact they are exacerbating an underlying condition by playing out being "healed".

yes, I hear what you're saying. I was only speaking w/r to genuine healings. What you are describing here is more of a scientology-like false healing, where it's a delusional fantasy in the head as opposed to a genuine real healing. I also definitely have seen this in TWI on more than one occasion.

doojable,

Good stuff - I really like your last 2 posts a lot.

Edited to add: I have a very tiny scar below my lower lip from that cut. It serves to remind me of two things: God's goodness and to pay careful attention while driving. :)

This is so amazing to me. Real genuine healings like this so many times have God's special signature on them that is such an absolute personal message to the healed. That ain't no mental fantasy.

[excathedra]

i'm really not sure about what the hereafter will be like

but one of my desires, and god knows, is to understand some of this stuff

i also told him i don't want to be a happy renewed mind spirit robot lol

i fully expect not see through a dark glass

[excathedra]

hey thanks sushie, love you