i spent quite a bit of time on the internet being screamed at by posters saying i was lying about my experiences with veepee. other times i was talked to (and about) for trying to get attention
i have tried (unsuccessfully at times i'm sure) not to be on any pulpit and not to hurt other people
so i'm still trying to figure out (among other things) how to respond to the point, socks, about everyone jumping on bandwagon when it's negative about veepee and the way
Maybe it's all a matter of perception and definition.
When someone makes the focus of their posting activity an avenue to promote a personal agenda, I see that as "speaking from the pulpit". Maybe prosylatizing would be a better word. It could be about anything, really, but typically it's been about an inordinate promotion of such things as: PFAL equaling The Word of God, insisting that every incident be proven, looking for any opportunity to bash Obama, repeated invitations to join a "church" and so forth. Just my opinion but those are things that I would consider to be encompassed in this pulpit idea. I don't let it bother me, though, as long as the "preacher" is open to honest and open discourse regarding whatever their agenda might be.
You can do whatever you want to, RR. I'm sure you will anyway. You can't write coherently, why should I expect you to read coherently.
Excel, I'm sure you would agree that GS has been a place where you can say what you want. That right has been upheld and although it might be difficult, you've been defended at every turn.- you in fact haven't done what posters like Ham have done incessantly, (uh oh, I'm being specific now, I need to make this more vague if I can)
there's others too, (there that works) and honestly, when the pages of crap-fest yucks pile up and on and on and on - well, it's a free board, so I shouldn't complain.
The recent thread Bolshevik has started is another perfect example. It's going to engender a pile on of yuck yucks from the muck meisters here who will say nothing ("nothing! certainly something!" - okay) of content but make jokes a-plenty. It should be in the "Silly" forum, not here. But it does a good job illustrating eggsackly what I'm talking about. GS is kinda going down the crap-fest falls IMO.
This isn't about you Xa. I understand where you're coming from. Trust me - I know exactly what you mean, Kiddo. There are things I will never post here because - privately or publicly - I'd get stoned for it or politely called a deluded liar. Things that are true and factual, of which there is no question as to the veracity. As far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to degrade myself by trying to convince anyone else - and you shouldn't either and I'm proud of you that you don't. If they don't want to believe you - f-k 'em. It's your life, you've lived it and you don't owe any apologies or explanations to anyone..
So before I pull "BS" on myself yet again - (I've counted 5 so far) please, proceed without me GS. Hope this board helps.
Good! RumRunner, but please, having read your last post - proceed without me.
You can do whatever you want to, RR. I'm sure you will anyway. You can't write coherently, why should I expect you to read coherently.
I've noticed that about you socks in other threads as well. If you don't believe it, if it disagrees with you, if it rubs you wrong then the person who posted has some deficiency - not just a different opinion than you - true to historical form.
If you think I don't write coherently I suggest it indicates that A) your delusions are pretty serious or B) you enjoy twisting other people's words - of course you always did.
Now since you have escalated from disagreement and simple twisting to outright insults - I'll drop this thread.
People with your ego and falsetto voiced thoughts just aren't worth it.
You do an injustice to your early history in twi. You have early knowledge and it may, just may, even without insulting vic or twi, prove helpful at times to some people.
I think everyone's intent here is to help Brainfixed, et al, RumRunner, Socks, Linda Z, and Ham...but there are two distinct views of the GS crowd here clashing, one where it is thought people dwell too much on the dark side-therefore never being able to overcome it and move on to living, acknowledging there were some good people and some good times associated with twi, and the other viewpoint of calling a spade a spade as often as it comes up and emphasizing the facts that darkness was a part of twi and it is an overriding effect.
BOTH ARE VALID POINTS, can we not just acknowledge them and co-exist wtihout it disolving into a turf war?
Who are any of us to say either the glass is half full or half empty is the right way? We all live our own lives, can we not decide for ourselves and weigh the various contributions on this web board in our own minds and come up with our own conclusions?
RumRunner. . . . that sounds alot like 200 level course work to me. I am, after all, a novice.
I have yet to see anyone on this thread defend TWI or VP. It wouldn't be me. However, sweeping generalizations tend to frustrate me. Sweeping judgements made on an entire group of people because we were all involved in an abusive cult. . . is insulting.
Even DWBH didn't know what was going on back then. He was right there. Once we found out. . . many of us left and stopped "Feeding the machine".
So, how are my few lousy nice memories an affront to anyone? No one has said they were partying with VP on the motorcoach or living large off the ABS.
If I remember, with affection, the woman who drove me around in the hot southern sun. . . in a car with no AC and change scraped together for gas. . .dragging her two small kids along . . parking with a brick behind the tire. . . so I could get my kid to his countless Dr. appointments. . . how is that wrong?
No one asked her. . . no one demanded she do it. . . she knew I needed help and she was there for me. She didn't get any glory. She got sunburn. She was a nice person.
Now I have to look back on her with disdain. . . no thanks.
If you want to talk about why I was so broke, missed opportunities, and regret, I am in. . . but, I can't change it. So, I look back on the few GOOD people I knew with some affection and gratitude.
If I remember, with affection, the woman who drove me around in the hot southern sun. . . in a car with no AC and change scraped together for gas. . .dragging her two small kids along . . parking with a brick behind the tire. . . so I could get my kid to his countless Dr. appointments. . . how is that wrong?
No one asked her. . . no one demanded she do it. . . she knew I needed help and she was there for me. She didn't get any glory. She got sunburn. She was a nice person.
Now I have to look back on her with disdain. . . no thanks.
If you want to talk about why I was so broke, missed opportunities, and regret, I am in. . . but, I can't change it. So, I look back on the few GOOD people I knew with some affection and gratitude.
where, in any of that, does twi deserve credit?
I think that's what I take exception to.
I have some good memories from (not of) my years on twi. some very good ones. I had kids. I made some friends. I had some really fun experiences.
twi doesn't get credit for any of that. they didn't create it, cause it, and couldn't prevent it when they tried. they did ruin lots of opportunities for me and kept me shackled to a ball and chain I would have dumped 15 years earlier, and I can't think of any of the great opportunities that didn't come at such a heavy price I wish they'd never come my way, because I could have got where I needed to by other means without paying the heavy price.
If I remember, with affection, the woman who drove me around in the hot southern sun. . . in a car with no AC and change scraped together for gas. . .dragging her two small kids along . . parking with a brick behind the tire. . . so I could get my kid to his countless Dr. appointments. . . how is that wrong?
No one asked her. . . no one demanded she do it. . . she knew I needed help and she was there for me. She didn't get any glory. She got sunburn. She was a nice person.
I'm not so sure that's the same thing.
"Good times" are when somebody gushes over the "swell" time he had hanging out with VPW for a week 30 years ago or how "blessed" they got at those infamous "nite-owls" when all the young ladies sat around in their pj's singing Kumbaya while VP perused the attendees with a lustful eye.
Why was this woman in a position to have to drive a car that was in such a state of disrepair, scrape for change and subject her children to less than healthful conditions? I'm not faulting the woman, herself. What I'm doing is bringing into question the type of system that fostered and propagated these kinds of situations.
What you are remembering is a good person, not a good time.
If I remember, with affection, the woman who drove me around in the hot southern sun. . . in a car with no AC and change scraped together for gas. . .dragging her two small kids along . . parking with a brick behind the tire. . . so I could get my kid to his countless Dr. appointments. . . how is that wrong?
No one asked her. . . no one demanded she do it. . . she knew I needed help and she was there for me. She didn't get any glory. She got sunburn. She was a nice person.
a side note.. these were the "kind" of people (volunteers) twi shaved from their ranks around here in the nineties..
and I don't have an agenda. It's an honest observation..
those who are left, with MAYBE one exception.. would not give one the time of day..
yeah, it really disolved into something it didn't have to.
You can take the same exact circumstances and eyewitnesses and everyone will have a different perspective of what happened, that is human nature, we will never agree on everything.
I wouldn't give TWI credit for that Potato. . . I wouldn't give them credit for anything really. But, that is not really what was posed in the initial thread. However, TWI is how I knew her. It is how I met my husband. . .
We did actually share some good times together Waysider. I can remember one night she and a few others came and dragged me out of the apartment to go have some fun. We had a blast. We really had fun. We drank. We laughed. . . and we ended up sitting on a hillside until dawn. . . really talking. We connected. Sometimes I really miss her and the sweet friendship we had.
And yes, I said. . . if you want to talk about why I was broke. . . regret. . . and missed opportunities . . . I am in. I get it. I really understand. I have railed on more than one occasion and DO understand why people are hurt, devastated, frustrated, and angry. I know they have to work through these issues.
But here is the thing. . . I can't change it. It is what it is. . . and frustration, though justified doesn't change that I had some fun.
And yes Ham, I do understand that the purges really weeded the few stragglers who had at least a modicum of humanity. The late 70's and 80's were not that great either, but I think perhaps a bit more tolerable.
My past in TWI. . . as pathetic as it is. . . is what I have to work with. If wishes were horses I would have ridden away before I started, but that isn't going to happen. So, I work with what I have got. I have plenty of sad tales, but this thread posed the question about the good times.
I did have one or two while in TWI and met some good people. I met more than my share of ba$tard$ as well, but who didn't? That was the norm, not the exception.
Twi sucked. The time in twi sucked - for the most part.
How many of us moved across the country with little or no money with 4 (or more!) people to one junker of a car?
And where was the concern for the young people (us)? When we arrived we had not only bills but deposits to pay. For many - if not most - of us, this was our first experience with renting an apartment.
What was "good." on occasion was the kindness of strangers.
What was "good," on occasion was the bond (albeit sometimes tentative bond) that came from working with people.
But why look at the memory of some good person and somehow attribute that to twi? Geez! even criminals have friends.
The recent thread Bolshevik has started is another perfect example. It's going to engender a pile on of yuck yucks from the muck meisters here who will say nothing ("nothing! certainly something!" - okay) of content but make jokes a-plenty. It should be in the "Silly" forum, not here. But it does a good job illustrating eggsackly what I'm talking about. GS is kinda going down the crap-fest falls IMO.
. . .
WTF?
Do you miss the "good ole' dayz" of GSC or something? A time when conversations of about the dark side were light and refined? Is that it?
I posted something of content. If I were really serious, I'd get booted for it.
You're right though. This has gone down the crapper. Peanut butter and stuff.
dont' knock it too much.. sometimes that's all I've got..
kinda pathetic though.. over twenty some years involvement with "da WORD as it hath not been known since the earth cooled".. and that's about all I've got..
I think everyone's intent here is to help Brainfixed, et al, RumRunner, Socks, Linda Z, and Ham...but there are two distinct views of the GS crowd here clashing, one where it is thought people dwell too much on the dark side-therefore never being able to overcome it and move on to living, acknowledging there were some good people and some good times associated with twi, and the other viewpoint of calling a spade a spade as often as it comes up and emphasizing the facts that darkness was a part of twi and it is an overriding effect.
BOTH ARE VALID POINTS, can we not just acknowledge them and co-exist wtihout it disolving into a turf war?
Who are any of us to say either the glass is half full or half empty is the right way? We all live our own lives, can we not decide for ourselves and weigh the various contributions on this web board in our own minds and come up with our own conclusions?
hell, has the dark side really been addressed? I must have missed something. . .
But why look at the memory of some good person and somehow attribute that to twi? Geez! even criminals have friends.
Because the discussion is about TWI and the "good times". That is how I knew her, through TWI. Had it been the Peace Corps, Navy, or Dallas Cheerleaders I may have attributed them.
And gee. . . this has gotten almost as fun as TWI was. Only now I don't have to justify my memories, who I remember, or what I attribute.
Because the discussion is about TWI and the "good times". That is how I knew her, through TWI. Had it been the Peace Corps, Navy, or Dallas Cheerleaders I may have attributed them.
And gee. . . this has gotten almost as fun as TWI was.
hey Geisha - I'm a late comer to this discussion.
I guess I separate the times from the cult. The thing I noticed way back when (pun intended) was that it was possible to meet and spend time with folks who never would have met had it not been for the shared experience of pfal.
So I can call the cult the catalyst for bringing some good folks together. That I get. I can say that I met some great folks. THAT I get.
But perhaps it's just not in me to give the cult experience more room in my life than it already has had.
I'm not faulting you for you views, geisha - just noting my difference of opinion. In fact, I wasn't pointing that last post at anyone in particular.
do i dare jump into this fray? no i dare not and i won't because it's not at all about the discussion topic as i put it forth, but the topic i did put forth was not of a blanket statement and i was very careful to specify that i was talking about me, myself and I and how the three of us came to understand the confusion it was for us as a child to have on one hand these horrors of horrors happening and on the other hand these "good times" were always there to make me doubt myself and my experiences of the horrors. and the only way in which i "generalized" the original topic was to point out what i have read here at the cafe, and i was very careful to say that of course there were good times or nobody would have stayed around. and in the beginning this whole discussion was posed as a question and then i answered the question as pertains to my, myself and i. the fact that i went overboard not to offend anybody and kept trying to explain myself ended up that i found myself in the middle of what i saw was brewing to be the fray that is now fully steeped and was never necessary except that people read things as pointing fingers at them and that includes me, but i didn't start this discussion pointing a finger at any person but at a pattern called the cycle of abuse. and that hasn't even been discussed yet!
I guess I separate the times from the cult. The thing I noticed way back when (pun intended) was that it was possible to meet and spend time with folks who never would have met had it not been for the shared experience of pfal.
So I can call the cult the catalyst for bringing some good folks together. That I get. I can say that I met some great folks. THAT I get.
But perhaps it's just not in me to give the cult experience more room in my life than it already has had.
I'm not faulting you for you views, geisha - just noting my difference of opinion. In fact, I wasn't pointing that last post at anyone in particular.
I think our outlooks may merge at some point. I won't let them steal anything more from me. Meaning, they don't get to taint the few good memories I have, so I hear what you are saying. Same idea. . . differing implementation.
I too won't let them have too much room in my present, but when I look back, as sad as it is, that is a good chunk of my youth. Being the all consuming lifestyle it was. . . living, working, and playing together. . . under the illusion of the greater good, it is there.
They just don't get the few bits they didn't manage to already ruin.
so here are spome questions that might help make the subject i started this dicussion about to be more clear, and i will use specific examples of what people have already written on this discussion themselves, so it's going to be questions about these people's specific examples who have written them on this discussion, but it's not personal in that i am not expecting any answer at all and i am not judging anybody or saying anybody is "right" or "wrong", but i would rather that all readers would just stop and think about the questions as pertains to the cycle of abuse and not as an affront to themselves or their memories or anything like that. please. and these are hypothetical questions because even god can't change the past, but if you guys would please just think about the answers and maybe write your thoughts here if you feel so inclined. and i hope that others will pose similar questions to themselves and maybe write their thoughts here without taking swings at each other. please. and yes this is going somewhere and i'm not trying to decive i'm trying to think outside of my own head and my own experiences. thank you.
lindaz, if you had not been actually healed would that have made you look at the "dr" and the way international in a different light?
geisha779, if nobody had helped you with your child and left you on your own to figure things out would that have made you reconsider your involvement in the way international?
coolchef, if you had not been friend and family but instead a stranger to people in the way would that have changed your perception of the way?
who here would have stayed involved with the way international if they were made to feel less than and unimportant and to be blamed?
lindaz, if you had not been actually healed would that have made you look at the "dr" and the way international in a different light?
Good question, brainfixed.
I have to leave for work in a couple minutes. I'll give my short answer now, but I won't be able to look in here again until tonight.
That was only one positive experience I had with vpw. There were others. There were also plenty of negative experiences I had that could be traced right back to decisions VPW made. I'm not in the camp that thinks everything went south just because vpw died, although lcm did seem to make an art form out of screwing things up more than they already were.
So the short answer is that if I hadn't been healed that day, it probably wouldn't have changed my view of my years in twi today. I'd still view it as a mix of good times and bad times.
As for where this thread has gone, it's typical, brainfixed. These sorts of threads, on topics that get heated, seem to have a mind of their own, regardless of the good intentions of whoever started them. They just go where they go. And although it saddens me to see people I like getting angry with each other, in a way I think it's healthy for people to say what they really mean instead of tap-dancing around.
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Tzaia
There were no "good" times. There were a few good people, but even my first visit - a branch meeting - was not what I would call "good". Overwhelming - yes. I was told it would cost at least a dollar
Linda Z
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, RumRunner. Without naming names, what are you talking about? You can give examples of behavior/types of posts without naming names. I'm really trying to und
potato
I'm glad vpw is dead.
excathedra
well, i don't know what to say
i spent quite a bit of time on the internet being screamed at by posters saying i was lying about my experiences with veepee. other times i was talked to (and about) for trying to get attention
i have tried (unsuccessfully at times i'm sure) not to be on any pulpit and not to hurt other people
so i'm still trying to figure out (among other things) how to respond to the point, socks, about everyone jumping on bandwagon when it's negative about veepee and the way
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RumRunner
I think that is well stated waysider
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socks
You can do whatever you want to, RR. I'm sure you will anyway. You can't write coherently, why should I expect you to read coherently.
Excel, I'm sure you would agree that GS has been a place where you can say what you want. That right has been upheld and although it might be difficult, you've been defended at every turn.- you in fact haven't done what posters like Ham have done incessantly, (uh oh, I'm being specific now, I need to make this more vague if I can)
there's others too, (there that works) and honestly, when the pages of crap-fest yucks pile up and on and on and on - well, it's a free board, so I shouldn't complain.
The recent thread Bolshevik has started is another perfect example. It's going to engender a pile on of yuck yucks from the muck meisters here who will say nothing ("nothing! certainly something!" - okay) of content but make jokes a-plenty. It should be in the "Silly" forum, not here. But it does a good job illustrating eggsackly what I'm talking about. GS is kinda going down the crap-fest falls IMO.
This isn't about you Xa. I understand where you're coming from. Trust me - I know exactly what you mean, Kiddo. There are things I will never post here because - privately or publicly - I'd get stoned for it or politely called a deluded liar. Things that are true and factual, of which there is no question as to the veracity. As far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to degrade myself by trying to convince anyone else - and you shouldn't either and I'm proud of you that you don't. If they don't want to believe you - f-k 'em. It's your life, you've lived it and you don't owe any apologies or explanations to anyone..
So before I pull "BS" on myself yet again - (I've counted 5 so far) please, proceed without me GS. Hope this board helps.
Good! RumRunner, but please, having read your last post - proceed without me.
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RumRunner
I've noticed that about you socks in other threads as well. If you don't believe it, if it disagrees with you, if it rubs you wrong then the person who posted has some deficiency - not just a different opinion than you - true to historical form.
If you think I don't write coherently I suggest it indicates that A) your delusions are pretty serious or B) you enjoy twisting other people's words - of course you always did.
Now since you have escalated from disagreement and simple twisting to outright insults - I'll drop this thread.
People with your ego and falsetto voiced thoughts just aren't worth it.
You do an injustice to your early history in twi. You have early knowledge and it may, just may, even without insulting vic or twi, prove helpful at times to some people.
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now I see
I think everyone's intent here is to help Brainfixed, et al, RumRunner, Socks, Linda Z, and Ham...but there are two distinct views of the GS crowd here clashing, one where it is thought people dwell too much on the dark side-therefore never being able to overcome it and move on to living, acknowledging there were some good people and some good times associated with twi, and the other viewpoint of calling a spade a spade as often as it comes up and emphasizing the facts that darkness was a part of twi and it is an overriding effect.
BOTH ARE VALID POINTS, can we not just acknowledge them and co-exist wtihout it disolving into a turf war?
Who are any of us to say either the glass is half full or half empty is the right way? We all live our own lives, can we not decide for ourselves and weigh the various contributions on this web board in our own minds and come up with our own conclusions?
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geisha779
RumRunner. . . . that sounds alot like 200 level course work to me. I am, after all, a novice.
I have yet to see anyone on this thread defend TWI or VP. It wouldn't be me. However, sweeping generalizations tend to frustrate me. Sweeping judgements made on an entire group of people because we were all involved in an abusive cult. . . is insulting.
Even DWBH didn't know what was going on back then. He was right there. Once we found out. . . many of us left and stopped "Feeding the machine".
So, how are my few lousy nice memories an affront to anyone? No one has said they were partying with VP on the motorcoach or living large off the ABS.
If I remember, with affection, the woman who drove me around in the hot southern sun. . . in a car with no AC and change scraped together for gas. . .dragging her two small kids along . . parking with a brick behind the tire. . . so I could get my kid to his countless Dr. appointments. . . how is that wrong?
No one asked her. . . no one demanded she do it. . . she knew I needed help and she was there for me. She didn't get any glory. She got sunburn. She was a nice person.
Now I have to look back on her with disdain. . . no thanks.
If you want to talk about why I was so broke, missed opportunities, and regret, I am in. . . but, I can't change it. So, I look back on the few GOOD people I knew with some affection and gratitude.
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potato
where, in any of that, does twi deserve credit?
I think that's what I take exception to.
I have some good memories from (not of) my years on twi. some very good ones. I had kids. I made some friends. I had some really fun experiences.
twi doesn't get credit for any of that. they didn't create it, cause it, and couldn't prevent it when they tried. they did ruin lots of opportunities for me and kept me shackled to a ball and chain I would have dumped 15 years earlier, and I can't think of any of the great opportunities that didn't come at such a heavy price I wish they'd never come my way, because I could have got where I needed to by other means without paying the heavy price.
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waysider
I'm not so sure that's the same thing.
"Good times" are when somebody gushes over the "swell" time he had hanging out with VPW for a week 30 years ago or how "blessed" they got at those infamous "nite-owls" when all the young ladies sat around in their pj's singing Kumbaya while VP perused the attendees with a lustful eye.
Why was this woman in a position to have to drive a car that was in such a state of disrepair, scrape for change and subject her children to less than healthful conditions? I'm not faulting the woman, herself. What I'm doing is bringing into question the type of system that fostered and propagated these kinds of situations.
What you are remembering is a good person, not a good time.
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Ham
a side note.. these were the "kind" of people (volunteers) twi shaved from their ranks around here in the nineties..
and I don't have an agenda. It's an honest observation..
those who are left, with MAYBE one exception.. would not give one the time of day..
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excathedra
this could be one of the saddest threads
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now I see
yeah, it really disolved into something it didn't have to.
You can take the same exact circumstances and eyewitnesses and everyone will have a different perspective of what happened, that is human nature, we will never agree on everything.
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geisha779
I wouldn't give TWI credit for that Potato. . . I wouldn't give them credit for anything really. But, that is not really what was posed in the initial thread. However, TWI is how I knew her. It is how I met my husband. . .
We did actually share some good times together Waysider. I can remember one night she and a few others came and dragged me out of the apartment to go have some fun. We had a blast. We really had fun. We drank. We laughed. . . and we ended up sitting on a hillside until dawn. . . really talking. We connected. Sometimes I really miss her and the sweet friendship we had.
And yes, I said. . . if you want to talk about why I was broke. . . regret. . . and missed opportunities . . . I am in. I get it. I really understand. I have railed on more than one occasion and DO understand why people are hurt, devastated, frustrated, and angry. I know they have to work through these issues.
But here is the thing. . . I can't change it. It is what it is. . . and frustration, though justified doesn't change that I had some fun.
And yes Ham, I do understand that the purges really weeded the few stragglers who had at least a modicum of humanity. The late 70's and 80's were not that great either, but I think perhaps a bit more tolerable.
My past in TWI. . . as pathetic as it is. . . is what I have to work with. If wishes were horses I would have ridden away before I started, but that isn't going to happen. So, I work with what I have got. I have plenty of sad tales, but this thread posed the question about the good times.
I did have one or two while in TWI and met some good people. I met more than my share of ba$tard$ as well, but who didn't? That was the norm, not the exception.
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Ham
The hardest part is reconciling the two often far removed but equally valid experiences..
and I meant no offense to Linda Z..
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doojable
Twi sucked. The time in twi sucked - for the most part.
How many of us moved across the country with little or no money with 4 (or more!) people to one junker of a car?
And where was the concern for the young people (us)? When we arrived we had not only bills but deposits to pay. For many - if not most - of us, this was our first experience with renting an apartment.
What was "good." on occasion was the kindness of strangers.
What was "good," on occasion was the bond (albeit sometimes tentative bond) that came from working with people.
But why look at the memory of some good person and somehow attribute that to twi? Geez! even criminals have friends.
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Bolshevik
WTF?
Do you miss the "good ole' dayz" of GSC or something? A time when conversations of about the dark side were light and refined? Is that it?
I posted something of content. If I were really serious, I'd get booted for it.
You're right though. This has gone down the crapper. Peanut butter and stuff.
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Ham
dont' knock it too much.. sometimes that's all I've got..
kinda pathetic though.. over twenty some years involvement with "da WORD as it hath not been known since the earth cooled".. and that's about all I've got..
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Bolshevik
hell, has the dark side really been addressed? I must have missed something. . .
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now I see
Maybe not in this thread, but in others, there's lots posted on GS about it.
I don't believe we've said everything that could be said about twi's dark side, I believe GS still serves a purpose for posting about it.
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geisha779
Because the discussion is about TWI and the "good times". That is how I knew her, through TWI. Had it been the Peace Corps, Navy, or Dallas Cheerleaders I may have attributed them.
And gee. . . this has gotten almost as fun as TWI was. Only now I don't have to justify my memories, who I remember, or what I attribute.
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doojable
hey Geisha - I'm a late comer to this discussion.
I guess I separate the times from the cult. The thing I noticed way back when (pun intended) was that it was possible to meet and spend time with folks who never would have met had it not been for the shared experience of pfal.
So I can call the cult the catalyst for bringing some good folks together. That I get. I can say that I met some great folks. THAT I get.
But perhaps it's just not in me to give the cult experience more room in my life than it already has had.
I'm not faulting you for you views, geisha - just noting my difference of opinion. In fact, I wasn't pointing that last post at anyone in particular.
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brainfixed
do i dare jump into this fray? no i dare not and i won't because it's not at all about the discussion topic as i put it forth, but the topic i did put forth was not of a blanket statement and i was very careful to specify that i was talking about me, myself and I and how the three of us came to understand the confusion it was for us as a child to have on one hand these horrors of horrors happening and on the other hand these "good times" were always there to make me doubt myself and my experiences of the horrors. and the only way in which i "generalized" the original topic was to point out what i have read here at the cafe, and i was very careful to say that of course there were good times or nobody would have stayed around. and in the beginning this whole discussion was posed as a question and then i answered the question as pertains to my, myself and i. the fact that i went overboard not to offend anybody and kept trying to explain myself ended up that i found myself in the middle of what i saw was brewing to be the fray that is now fully steeped and was never necessary except that people read things as pointing fingers at them and that includes me, but i didn't start this discussion pointing a finger at any person but at a pattern called the cycle of abuse. and that hasn't even been discussed yet!
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geisha779
I think our outlooks may merge at some point. I won't let them steal anything more from me. Meaning, they don't get to taint the few good memories I have, so I hear what you are saying. Same idea. . . differing implementation.
I too won't let them have too much room in my present, but when I look back, as sad as it is, that is a good chunk of my youth. Being the all consuming lifestyle it was. . . living, working, and playing together. . . under the illusion of the greater good, it is there.
They just don't get the few bits they didn't manage to already ruin.
Thanks.
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brainfixed
so here are spome questions that might help make the subject i started this dicussion about to be more clear, and i will use specific examples of what people have already written on this discussion themselves, so it's going to be questions about these people's specific examples who have written them on this discussion, but it's not personal in that i am not expecting any answer at all and i am not judging anybody or saying anybody is "right" or "wrong", but i would rather that all readers would just stop and think about the questions as pertains to the cycle of abuse and not as an affront to themselves or their memories or anything like that. please. and these are hypothetical questions because even god can't change the past, but if you guys would please just think about the answers and maybe write your thoughts here if you feel so inclined. and i hope that others will pose similar questions to themselves and maybe write their thoughts here without taking swings at each other. please. and yes this is going somewhere and i'm not trying to decive i'm trying to think outside of my own head and my own experiences. thank you.
lindaz, if you had not been actually healed would that have made you look at the "dr" and the way international in a different light?
geisha779, if nobody had helped you with your child and left you on your own to figure things out would that have made you reconsider your involvement in the way international?
coolchef, if you had not been friend and family but instead a stranger to people in the way would that have changed your perception of the way?
who here would have stayed involved with the way international if they were made to feel less than and unimportant and to be blamed?
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Linda Z
Good question, brainfixed.
I have to leave for work in a couple minutes. I'll give my short answer now, but I won't be able to look in here again until tonight.
That was only one positive experience I had with vpw. There were others. There were also plenty of negative experiences I had that could be traced right back to decisions VPW made. I'm not in the camp that thinks everything went south just because vpw died, although lcm did seem to make an art form out of screwing things up more than they already were.
So the short answer is that if I hadn't been healed that day, it probably wouldn't have changed my view of my years in twi today. I'd still view it as a mix of good times and bad times.
As for where this thread has gone, it's typical, brainfixed. These sorts of threads, on topics that get heated, seem to have a mind of their own, regardless of the good intentions of whoever started them. They just go where they go. And although it saddens me to see people I like getting angry with each other, in a way I think it's healthy for people to say what they really mean instead of tap-dancing around.
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