the "good" times

[Bolshevik]

not really

your take is for you I guess is what you're saying. how useful that is I don't see.

[Tzaia]

Interesting.

Two of my acquaintances were healed of significant physical impairments within the last month. They belong to a "splinter group," and the man who prayed for them studied healing in TWI.

Will you tell them that they need to "give back" their wholeness because VPW was an a-hole?

George

Studied healing? Studied healing?! Since healing is a manifestation of the hs, not sure how you can "study" it. You would think that since we all saw how leading someone to SIT didn't really work, it would be a given that studying how to manifest healing has about the same effect.

They may have the gift, but I seriously doubt if it was something they learned.

[potato]

I think the man's ability to minister healing probably had a lot more to do with his relationship with god than his relationship with twi. if god called him to heal people, was twi a necessary part of the equation or did god work in him despite twi?

giving twi credit for a person learning something spiritual, when twi's own teaching materials were stolen in the first place... sorry, I don't even know where to start...

so I'll just say it's better to credit the man for loving people like christ did, and god for working in him. finis.

[brainfixed]

i think i've found the root of some of my anger and it is this idea of crediting anything good and godly to the way's commandments and doctrines. people here have said it over and over again that the way international and pfal and the "dr" did not teach people how to be vessels for god, but how to make god into some sort of genie in a bottle or santa claus or good luck charm all kept hidden away until you want him to perform at your beck and call. and even with it right there in black and white with sound logic and true caring there are people that still come back and say things like "well i learned in the way" or "if i hadn't taken pfal" or "the "dr" taught me" and all the while not giving god the glory but giving a drunk and rapist and pedophile and thief the glory. that just chaps my a$$ raw and makes me want to hurl.

i love what excathedra said about just because god led you out of the way it doesn't mean he led you in, and just because he worked through you in the way it doesn't mean he liked doing it.

[socks]

I'll try again -

what the heck is the other side of the story in the first place? What's the story?

The "other side of the story" is a general statement as to what GS attempts to do, and it's overall purpose, that's what the heck it is. Put two and two together and you'll have your answer.

This has turned into a real circular twirl down the bowl. Have fun. My brain will turn to a thinner layer of peanut butter if I follow yet another discusson on this entire topic. It was great the first 20 times though, so for anyone doing it for the first go 'round, trust me - the stomped grapes get the wine started.

[rascal]

Let me point out that I'm not trying to minimize anyone's suffering. I had a friend who committed suicide because he got screwed by TWI. But he wasn't screwed by the people in his fellowship; he wasn't screwed by them praying for him; he wasn't screwed by them sharing the Word with him. He was screwed by top leadership who directly lied to him.

As far as TWI's involvement in my other friends' healings, they weren't prayed for in the name of TWI, or in the name of VPW, but in the name of Jesus Christ. And God healed them. But the minister learned what he knew from TWI. Probably in "the good times."

George

George, I hope that I can discuss this with you without it appearing that I am being deliberatly argumentative or lacking in respect for you in any way.

I just think that maybe there is a chance that God works within the pettioner in spite of their beliefs and what he learned in the way.

I think also that though you describe your suicidal friend as *not being screwed by the prayers*...I`d say that prayer as they understood it according to twi teachings, while not actually *screwing* him per say.....seem to have been at best, innefective. Likewise the leaders that drove your friend to suicide were practicing beliefs aquired by studying and teaching a form of doctrine (though it be termed *the word*) that permitted them to feel like it was ok to behave in a heartless visciously conscienless way...feeling completely justified in driving a person to seek death....and your friend is not the only one. LCM himself was directly responsible for doing the same to another poor fellow...It happened to me and a few others around here too.... I don`t think by the evidence exhibitted by the practitioners, that the scriptures as interpretted by vpw and twi were neccesarily spiritually healthy. Jesus talks about not getting good fruit from a bad tree.

I think that there is a very good chance that maybe the man who prayed for your friend might simply be a man in whom God works, even in spite of his quirky beliefs.

I think that with the little *good* came a lot of really really bad stuff.....stuff that contaminates and negates the good...leaven leavening the whole loaf friend.

Edited June 1, 2009 by rascal

[Bolshevik]

well whatever side you're looking at,

while some of you were having a good time, others may have been watching you carefully. and they don't always agree it's constructive to remember those times as good.

finis.

ditto

[waysider]

"Don't bite the hand that feeds you."

A fair share of that was practiced in The Way, as well.

If you had something they wanted or needed, you may have gotten different treatment than those who didn't.

People who had access to free/nice meeting facilities, people who had ties to periodicals that could possibly wrangle some free advertising, musical or artistic talent that could be exploited, people with potential to offer large sums of money to help the organization, etc., often got the red carpet treatment.

I recall a particular time when VPW was planning a trip to our area. We knew about it a month in advance. One of the newbies was a limo driver who had access to company stretch limos. He got the royal treatment up until he picked up VP from the airport and chauffeured him around town all weekend. After that, the squeeze was on to get him wrapped up in "The Class". Suddenly, he was like every other sales prospect who wouldn't commit to closing the sale. He got used and he knew it. He didn't stay long after that.

Even those who got special treatment, though, would sometimes express confusion and disappointment over the less than special treatment of the regular believers. There were definitely mixed signals being sent. I guess my point is that the people sitting in the audience may have seen it as a "good" time. The guy who was scammed would probably recall the instance in a much different light.

Edited June 1, 2009 by waysider

[GeorgeStGeorge]

George, I hope that I can discuss this with you without it appearing that I am being deliberatly argumentative or lacking in respect for you in any way.

I just think that maybe there is a chance that God works within the pettioner in spite of their beliefs and what he learned in the way.

I think also that though you describe your suicidal friend as *not being screwed by the prayers*...I`d say that prayer as they understood it according to twi teachings, while not actually *screwing* him per say.....seem to have been at best, innefective. Likewise the leaders that drove your friend to suicide were practicing beliefs aquired by studying and teaching a form of doctrine (though it be termed *the word*) that permitted them to feel like it was ok to behave in a heartless visciously conscienless way...feeling completely justified in driving a person to seek death....and your friend is not the only one. LCM himself was directly responsible for doing the same to another poor fellow...It happened to me and a few others around here too.... I don`t think by the evidence exhibitted by the practitioners, that the scriptures as interpretted by vpw and twi were neccesarily spiritually healthy. Jesus talks about not getting good fruit from a bad tree.

I think that there is a very good chance that maybe the man who prayed for your friend might simply be a man in whom God works, even in spite of his quirky beliefs.

I think that with the little *good* came a lot of really really bad stuff.....stuff that contaminates and negates the good...leaven leavening the whole loaf friend.

I don't think you're being argumentative. I don't think we're actually saying that much different. There was, and is, a lot of crap in TWI, especially at the highest levels. But there were, and (I suspect) are, a lot of people who love God and do the best that they know for one another. Those make for good times.

George

P.S. to Tzaia: Okay, "studied healing" was inaccurately expressed. Perhaps "learned about gifts of healing" would have been better.

[excathedra]

i don't mind this discussion because my whole life is circular thinking

[socks]

while some of you were having a good time, others may have been watching you carefully. and they don't always agree it's constructive to remember those times as good.

No offense but this is why eggsackly that this is such a b.s. discussion - the endless reference to "good times" as if it was the era of the Jolly Rancher or something. Geez - I pity the foo' who holds on to a few memories (mammaries are fine though) of a few good times and that's all they've got. I picture the guy who's done his 30, gets the gold watch and through a beery stupor burps "yeah, oh yeah. Good times. Like that time the Coke Machine got jammed. Ohhh, boy. That was a doozy. Lemme tell you all about it......urppp)

Anytime, anyone, anywhere, wants to get specific about what they "watched" and what they - say - they "saw" - I'm in for that discussion, in spades and for the long run pardinero. You just bring it on in and set a spell.

"Carefully".

while some of you were having a good time, others may have been watching you carefully. and they don't always agree it's constructive to remember those times as good.

What in the flying frick is that supposed to mean?

I'm sorry if they don't remember it well, or as well as others. I think Obama's going to have a Fund for that in his Economic Recovery program. He'll fix it, not to worry.

[excathedra]

i'm confused quite frankly

[waysider]

GOOD TIMES/BAD TIMES

[excathedra]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way -

[rascal]

I don't think you're being argumentative. I don't think we're actually saying that much different. There was, and is, a lot of crap in TWI, especially at the highest levels. But there were, and (I suspect) are, a lot of people who love God and do the best that they know for one another. Those make for good times.

George

Nicely said George :)

[Ham]

while some of you were having a good time, others may have been watching you carefully. and they don't always agree it's constructive to remember those times as good.

It makes a little sense to me..

I watched a couple of "times"..

twig coordinators reamed unmercifully because some deadline past.. and no class materialized..

and that's mild..

what about VOLUNTEERS.. worked to no end, mucking the wienerville pond.. then stoutly reproved, because they had the audacity to feel sore at the end of the day..

yeah.. it was a good time I'm sure..

what about the guy employed in da way in a "professional" manner.. subject to vicious reaming because he didn't have the "revelation" that some poor sucker's wowmobile would vomit a half a quart of grease in gawd's parking lot.... and somehow "missed it" on his way to work that morning.. and promptly remove said oil slick, before it even occured..

or the character who lost both parents.. and was severely criticized because *they* merely THOUGHT he might be feeling sorrow for himself or something..

all I'm saying is.. I understand the point made.

what about you guys who were in "leadership" positions when the victser's "vision" of four thousand wows didn't materialize? Was that a "good time"..?

from my observation.. I'd say, no.. they weren't *reallY* good times..

not to mention the personal cost of participation in "god"'s "household"..

How much did we pay.. to *enjoy* a wow burger..

just a thought, or a few..

I can understand the observation..

[brainfixed]

i can't help but to hear that quote running through my brain every time i read this thread. how does it go? "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) many "good" twigites stood by silently and did nothing when children were repeatedly smacked with the wooden spoon, and many "good" people stood by silently and did nothing when people trying to help those children were "reproved" loudly and frequently and at length with terrible insults and dire threats to their well being, and many "good" people stood by silently and did nothing when their "sisters in christ" told them what was happening in the motorcoach, and i could go on and on but i just can't help to wonder how "good" those "good" folks really were at the time?

[Ham]

or the character who lost both parents.. and was severely criticized because *they* merely THOUGHT he might be feeling sorrow for himself or something..

yeah.. that was me.

I don't think you'll EVER have a clue..

having "parental authority" ripped from you, before you even have a chance to rebel..

good times.. yep..

[brainfixed]

i'm sorry ham.

i remember when my grandma died and i was told that i had 3 days to grieve and after that i would be "entertaining a devil spirit" so i got whacked hard with the wooden spoon every time i cried for missing my grandma.

[Ham]

thanks friend..

:)

well.. all I can say is.. the numbnuts "missed their calling"..

it took me about twenty five or more years to figure I needed to go back to school..

I won't recommend "their kind" of religion to anybody, anytime soon..but they probably don't care. They are too busy running a seminar on healing or casting out devils or something..

[geisha779]

I mean people.

For awhile I stopped thinking of twi and websites. but then people would show up, and get inside my head, and trigger weird things, because I had let down the defenses.

twi is people. . . .

I am trying to understand what you are saying. It is rather cryptic to my ears, but maybe it is just me.

Yes, TWI was and is made up of people. My point exactly.

The people that post here are former members of TWI. I would guess that out of all the posters registered here. . . the majority are good people. Even some of the grumpy ones have a heart of gold. :)

I imagine that there is at least one redeemable quality present in them today that was present during their time in TWI. Kindness, honesty, generosity, caring. . . selflessness. . . something?? I saw all those qualities exhibited at one time or another.

People are flawed, and people get tricked. . . we did lose some of ourselves in TWI. . . no doubt. . . but, not all tossed humanity out the window. Some, yes. . . not all.

So, if we accept the premise that people are flawed, and we accept the reality that we were tricked. . . together. . . theoretically, we can have some room in our hearts and fondness for the good people we lived with, worked with, and loved.

Not perfect people. . . but people with at least "some" good qualities.

Not everyone raped and pillaged. And Lord knows I wasn't in it for the money. . . I owned and rode in enough junkers to realize that not many WERE in it for the money.

If you talk to me about the doctrine or sheep being led astray. . . you will get a whole different response.

But, the people. . . . as flawed and broken as some were. . . were not all bad.

Remember, we actually ARE those people. I really hope you understand that does not diminish the bad. I have more than my share of horror stories. . . but this thread posed the question of "good times".

If I had my life to live over again. . . this converation would be moot. I would run. . . not walk the other way. . . but I don't . . . so. . . . it still is what it is.

There are just too many human beings I can't regret.

[Ham]

maybe the problem was.. we were not allowed to live our lives open and honestly for the most part..

I know I wasn't..

couldn't grieve without administration of a wooden spon.. sheesh..

call it "hookypookiism" or whatever by way standards..

I feel I've lost whatever "connection" it was I had, or could have had with my parents..

the damned doctrine closed the door..

who knows..

[Ham]

the "good times" at least for me..

maybe I shouldn't say..

:)

they were long before involvement in da way..

[potato]

i remember when my grandma died and i was told that i had 3 days to grieve and after that i would be "entertaining a devil spirit" so i got whacked hard with the wooden spoon every time i cried for missing my grandma.

my god this makes me so angry! I heard that vpw choked up when he talked about his brother for years after he died. if that's true, then vpw entertained a big-time devil spirit. what hypocrites!

my grandmother died when I was 18 and it took many years before thinking about her didn't cause intense pain and often tears because I missed her so much. grief is not devilish.

[now I see]

It is true many vpee policies, programs and doctrines were not people friendly nor family friendly, and rather unloving and sometimes perverted.  That being said, it's reasonable to think that some parents acted irresponsibly, unlovingly, and hypocritically toward their children and placed them in perilous and somewhat dangerous positions at times, and if that wooden spoon tactic for missing grandma was a typical daily occurrence for one kind or another perceived misbehavior, then I can see that a child growing up under such circumstances could as an adult resent the way in which he was brought up and view the ministry and it's people as hypocrits and a sham.  Especially since there's been so much revealed here on GS pointing to the double life some leaders led, and the made up doctrines of vpee, etc, if such parents never even admit these things are so, then that would be a problem.  Is that accurate Bolsh and Brainfixed?  

Edited June 2, 2009 by now I see