After this conversation I can see why their might be advantages to a relatively harmless (I guess it depends) posting board and anonymity. It provides a little cushion against disgreements becoming too personal. Whenever people touch on anothers "hot button issues" it seems there is more potential for learning for all and allows everyone to not get labelled as a ______ of any kind.
But I kind of enjoy being fully accountable for what I say. If I am wrong then I would say....gee...I was wrong or some such thing.
And if I was caught up into some seriously hatefull thinking and somebody showed me the light then I would really make it plain and simple for everyone to understand. If the change was big enough I'd probably end up being thankful for the correction, but it wouldn't be so much about feeling bad for being caught being wrong, it would be about being transparently thankful for the correction.
But in my case, my name is at stake. And I think I like the accountability.
The idea of being wrong and changing one's mind - and admitting it - has become as UnAmerican as apple pizza, jeff. (no apples were harmed in the making of this post) We have more euphimisms for "I was wrong" than we can shake a stick at. It seems more and more, less and less people are "wrong" about anything, ever, at all. And God forbid it be pointed out.
The modern information culture has had a difficult transition into accountability. It's amazing the low level of authentication that's required to validate or verify a "true fact". When a Google search can locate a 1,000 personal reflections on a 1,000 blogs, tweets and posts ... it can be understandably difficult to locate a true "record" that's usable. And easy too - more information isn't bad, it's good. But it does require some intelligence working with it to make it usable, some purpose, etc.
Oh, thanks, almost forgot. I was actually referring to the broader population of "the world", as if y'know, we're "people". Note to self: get out old green name tag for proper identification.
Another note to Socks: Make sure that the the charge of a person being 'wrong' is based upon verifiable fact, rather than just on the belief that they are wrong. ... I mean, two people can honestly believe that they are right or have two different opinions they believe in that they each have arrived at honestly.
Never mind. Forget I brought the topic up. I was discussing this topic with someone outside the Way-Weird World Sphere who completely understood. It's nothing to do with the criticisms of the Way or VPW, specifically and everything to do with elevating the level and quality of communication of ideas.
Even with anonymity on GSC posters here still for the most part try to be honorable in their posting and seem to readily admit to being wrong if it is pointed out. I find it like that on other forums I frequent also. There is a kind of camaraderie and an effort to some restraint. Of course this doesn't mean there are not drive by posters who spew venom and filth and lies in an effort to rouse regulars to a flame war but Most of the time people tend to be civil even with being anonymous. (of course since I avoid a lot of the more viral forums I may just be posting with a more gentler crew)
Personally for me when racial slurs get flung I tend to discount what the person is saying even if I generally agree with the rest of what they are saying.
it kind of goes along with the more a person flings swear words out the lower their intelligence appears to be... I don't mean a swear word here and there, I mean a full scale foul language assault.
Never mind. Forget I brought the topic up. I was discussing this topic with someone outside the Way-Weird World Sphere who completely understood. It's nothing to do with the criticisms of the Way or VPW, specifically and everything to do with elevating the level and quality of communication of ideas.
I forget how siloed the focus is here.
Socks, you are not being forthcoming with this mysterious allusive topic, I keep trying to get you to explain it, but you never do, you are dancing around it and referencing it, without coming right out and saying what it is that is bothering you, you didn't even respond to a direct question about it. Â
I am going to ignore what you did respond to me, out of graciousness, but I am really trying here to understand you, and discover what you mean.
I found a YouTube with George Carlin and Richard Pryor talking about the "n" word. I would have posted it, but I figured I'd just tell everyone how to find it. It's short- a little over a minute. (Hint Look up some of the info in the first sentence of this post.)
When I was a kid we all noted that ethnic slurs depend on context. (I'm pretty sure most of the folks here thought the same.)
Fill in the blanks in thought only:
There are Italians and there are ________, ________, ____, and ______.
I grew up in an Italian neighborhood so I I just happen to know more of these names.
There are Irish and there are _____.
There are Germans and there are ______.
There are Jews and there are ____.
I didn't even touch on racial slurs here - but my list can be just as long.
The point we made amongst ourselves was that the alternate names referred to the bad apples in the bunch - NOT the group as a whole. Surprisingly enough, a lot of the names not listed but implied in the above list, came from Ellis Island.
Language and the use of slurs and trash language to communicate points.
It's not that hard to understand.
This is a board about the Way, Way topics are discussed. So the use or racial slurs and trashy language (the constant references of words like scumbag, etc. ) warrant a look-see - me included. I think - that's in my opinion, which is why I've stated it - here.
If this was a board about guitars, I'd write the same things, in the context of the board's topics. About guitars.
It's not elusive, but if you want to see if that way, go right ahead. There's nothing but what you see-what you get in what I'm writing. Take it, or leave it.
So you don't want people to say scumbag or neo natzi, is pervert, liar, plagerist, rapist, deciever, anti christ, womanizer, cheater, manipulator, sociopath, narcisist, msogynist, theif, wolf and criminal ok? Â Is this the soiled focus you wrote about in your former post, or is that refering to something else? Â
This web board is a pretty tame one compared to others, is it you are wanting innies who come here not to be turned off by the language and negative feelings expressed here? Â There would have to be some heavy handed moderation in order to maintain this.
Is it ok to talk about how trashy some of these people were/are and how despicable some of their acts were/are?
I'm not trying to put you on the spot too much, but it seems like you are quick with the put downs when someone doesn't express themselves in the way you think they should, something which I never noticed until recently, which led me to think that there's something really bothering you about GS posters..
It just seems it's more than your disgust of use of slurs and low rent language, I agree with Dooje that using that language has to do more with context... you spelled out the N word, which I found distasteful.
I generally respect you and your postings, I just want you to clarify and get it off your chest, please excuse me if I'm a little dense and pollyannish about this topic.
The slur and low rent language clause is a quote from Socks, Â not from me, I'm not sure we are able to exactly define what words fit into what category, some may classify certain words as common use, while others may not....
Like I wrote earlier, I ring in on this topic from different platforms periodically. I commented to the balance of opinions and labelling/"name calling" in last year's moderator discussion on the rewriting of the GS Forms "rules" language. This is nothing new, for me. From time to time I get personally insulted (gasp! oh my!!) ... Lets say "suprised"....by the way some of the things are written here.....not what is written, please note and trust me-not everything that can be written has been by any means.
Some of that's personal taste, of course. I'm adding my personal opionon on that here - feel free to disagree. I chuckle at the 'elusive' description because to me - it seems - like you're the one actually inferring something other than what you're writing. But again - that's me, these eyes and this brain. Feel free to discount it. I don't ask for anyone's respect here.
So this is nothing new, although I don't make a big deal out of it. Most of the GS posters communicate very well, in my opinion. There's cycles here that flow from a variety of unrelated conditions and when/as they do it's more noticeable to me. I do feel that while GS provides room and space for expression, that opportunity is lessened in effectiveness at times.
Actually, I'm readying to sign off of GS overall. It's not working for me, in terms of what I want to accomplish at this point of my life, and there's only so much of that from here to it's logical (albeit temporary) conclusion. Not sure what next steps are ahead along this line but something mobile and dynamic seems in order. I wish you and all well, my friend,.
Thanks for the further explaination, if moving on is what you want, then so be it, it sure does sound like GS is not where it's at right now for you, I wish you well also, I've enjoyed reading your posts in the past and your involvement.Â
The idea of being wrong and changing one's mind - and admitting it - has become as UnAmerican as apple pizza, jeff. (no apples were harmed in the making of this post) We have more euphimisms for "I was wrong" than we can shake a stick at. It seems more and more, less and less people are "wrong" about anything, ever, at all. And God forbid it be pointed out.
The modern information culture has had a difficult transition into accountability. It's amazing the low level of authentication that's required to validate or verify a "true fact". When a Google search can locate a 1,000 personal reflections on a 1,000 blogs, tweets and posts ... it can be understandably difficult to locate a true "record" that's usable. And easy too - more information isn't bad, it's good. But it does require some intelligence working with it to make it usable, some purpose, etc.
Dear Socks,
I hope this response is not too late.
I can see how someone can choose anonymity and BE accountable. In that sense it applies to character and not whether or not someone is able to be held accountable.
Considering the WAYGB, and TWI's history of abuse I fully am willing to fight for a place like this that allows people who have been abused the availability to be anonymous. Espescially as it seems it may be necessary for them to post their own thoughts without being counter attacked when it comes to family and friends.
And while it seems obvous that TWI knows the names of some of the supposedly anonymous posters here it also seems obvious that they may bully anyone who they think will let them get away with it. And unfortunately abuse victims are often prone to letting it happen again.
But the fact that I've used my own name does seem to heighten my sense of accountability for my words and my ideas in spite of all that.
I've been thinking lately that I believe the Lord will hold me completely accountable for my words whether or not I choose to be anonymous. So before Him my anonymity is a moot point. I guess I feel like if I know I'll be held accountable by Him, what freakin difference should it make to me what anyone else thinks of me?
But in regards to actually being pursued by TWI style bullies in real life; I'm generally feeling too irked by all the lies, deception, and what it has already cost me to care to much about whether or not that actually ever happens.
Somebody that I know recently shared with me that their view of anonymity was that it could be some kind of game.
And while this view is an opinion that anyone has the right to form I think that it is obvious that the issues here at the Greasespot neccessitate that choosing to remain anonymous is a valid option. And the most that anyone should do if they hold that view is choose to be forthcoming with their identity and leave everyone else alone.
But then there is the very human manner of seeking to earn a reputation. And since that particular issue seems to me to have been at times in TWI "a disease" of sorts the most that anyone should do who holds that view as important to them should choose to be anonymous and then leave everyone else alone.
I think only the Lord will ever be fully able to weigh the thoughts and intents of the heart and I believe that judgement is coming some day. In the mean time I guess I just try to do what is right for me and try not to start any divisive and pointless arguments. And for those who do not believe what I do I would be very glad if they simply choose not to start pointless and divisive arguments too. I'd like to think we could get along then!
Some of the things I have been thinking about lately have led me to conclude that whether or not a person chooses anonymity is completely irrelevant compared to the things that I consider important.
A person can behave with a sense of accountability and be anonymous.
A person can also be completely wrapped up in their concern for their reputation more than anyone else's welfare and be anonymous too, heck, they can even talk about how they have a reputation based entirely on their avatar name for one thing or another.
I could go on and on with different examples of behaving good and bad..... but it seems to me that any motives or intents of the heart can be carried out...good or bad...totally independently as concerning one's choice to be anonymous or not.
And depending on the "hot button" issues that may be motivating us that particular day it seems resonable to me to expect a person's view of "the anonymity issue" may fluctuate... I call that being human.
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JeffSjo
First of all, let me say that more than once I have aggressively defended the right to be anonymous here at the Greasespot. Usually when certain formerly regular posters were bullying TWI victims who
JeffSjo
Dear Socks, I hope this response is not too late. I can see how someone can choose anonymity and BE accountable. In that sense it applies to character and not whether or not someone is able to be he
JeffSjo
Somebody that I know recently shared with me that their view of anonymity was that it could be some kind of game. And while this view is an opinion that anyone has the right to form I think that it i
JeffSjo
After this conversation I can see why their might be advantages to a relatively harmless (I guess it depends) posting board and anonymity. It provides a little cushion against disgreements becoming too personal. Whenever people touch on anothers "hot button issues" it seems there is more potential for learning for all and allows everyone to not get labelled as a ______ of any kind.
But I kind of enjoy being fully accountable for what I say. If I am wrong then I would say....gee...I was wrong or some such thing.
And if I was caught up into some seriously hatefull thinking and somebody showed me the light then I would really make it plain and simple for everyone to understand. If the change was big enough I'd probably end up being thankful for the correction, but it wouldn't be so much about feeling bad for being caught being wrong, it would be about being transparently thankful for the correction.
But in my case, my name is at stake. And I think I like the accountability.
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socks
The idea of being wrong and changing one's mind - and admitting it - has become as UnAmerican as apple pizza, jeff.
(no apples were harmed in the making of this post) We have more euphimisms for "I was wrong" than we can shake a stick at. It seems more and more, less and less people are "wrong" about anything, ever, at all. And God forbid it be pointed out.
The modern information culture has had a difficult transition into accountability. It's amazing the low level of authentication that's required to validate or verify a "true fact". When a Google search can locate a 1,000 personal reflections on a 1,000 blogs, tweets and posts ... it can be understandably difficult to locate a true "record" that's usable. And easy too - more information isn't bad, it's good. But it does require some intelligence working with it to make it usable, some purpose, etc.
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Bolshevik
In twi, we're always admitting to being wrong before leadership. And this place is full of ex-wayfers.
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socks
Oh, thanks, almost forgot. I was actually referring to the broader population of "the world", as if y'know, we're "people". Note to self: get out old green name tag for proper identification.
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Bolshevik
sorry, don't know what you mean. my bad.
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GarthP2000
Another note to Socks: Make sure that the the charge of a person being 'wrong' is based upon verifiable fact, rather than just on the belief that they are wrong. ... I mean, two people can honestly believe that they are right or have two different opinions they believe in that they each have arrived at honestly.
;)
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socks
That makes two of us, our bad.
True Garth. Well, figuratively speaking, you know what I mean. :)
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Bolshevik
better make it three, Linde-r could be reading
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socks
"So offended"...?
Sigh.
Rinse, repeat.
Sigh.
what is "harsh" language?
Never mind. Forget I brought the topic up. I was discussing this topic with someone outside the Way-Weird World Sphere who completely understood. It's nothing to do with the criticisms of the Way or VPW, specifically and everything to do with elevating the level and quality of communication of ideas.
I forget how siloed the focus is here.
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leafytwiglet
Even with anonymity on GSC posters here still for the most part try to be honorable in their posting and seem to readily admit to being wrong if it is pointed out. I find it like that on other forums I frequent also. There is a kind of camaraderie and an effort to some restraint. Of course this doesn't mean there are not drive by posters who spew venom and filth and lies in an effort to rouse regulars to a flame war but Most of the time people tend to be civil even with being anonymous. (of course since I avoid a lot of the more viral forums I may just be posting with a more gentler crew)
Personally for me when racial slurs get flung I tend to discount what the person is saying even if I generally agree with the rest of what they are saying.
it kind of goes along with the more a person flings swear words out the lower their intelligence appears to be... I don't mean a swear word here and there, I mean a full scale foul language assault.
Just my two cents.
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now I see
Socks, you are not being forthcoming with this mysterious allusive topic, I keep trying to get you to explain it, but you never do, you are dancing around it and referencing it, without coming right out and saying what it is that is bothering you, you didn't even respond to a direct question about it. Â
I am going to ignore what you did respond to me, out of graciousness, but I am really trying here to understand you, and discover what you mean.
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doojable
I found a YouTube with George Carlin and Richard Pryor talking about the "n" word. I would have posted it, but I figured I'd just tell everyone how to find it. It's short- a little over a minute. (Hint Look up some of the info in the first sentence of this post.)
When I was a kid we all noted that ethnic slurs depend on context. (I'm pretty sure most of the folks here thought the same.)
Fill in the blanks in thought only:
There are Italians and there are ________, ________, ____, and ______.
I grew up in an Italian neighborhood so I I just happen to know more of these names.
There are Irish and there are _____.
There are Germans and there are ______.
There are Jews and there are ____.
I didn't even touch on racial slurs here - but my list can be just as long.
The point we made amongst ourselves was that the alternate names referred to the bad apples in the bunch - NOT the group as a whole. Surprisingly enough, a lot of the names not listed but implied in the above list, came from Ellis Island.
Context - context - context.
Just some food for thought....
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socks
Feel free. The point was and is - still simple.
Language and the use of slurs and trash language to communicate points.
It's not that hard to understand.
This is a board about the Way, Way topics are discussed. So the use or racial slurs and trashy language (the constant references of words like scumbag, etc. ) warrant a look-see - me included. I think - that's in my opinion, which is why I've stated it - here.
If this was a board about guitars, I'd write the same things, in the context of the board's topics. About guitars.
It's not elusive, but if you want to see if that way, go right ahead. There's nothing but what you see-what you get in what I'm writing. Take it, or leave it.
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now I see
So you don't want people to say scumbag or neo natzi, is pervert, liar, plagerist, rapist, deciever, anti christ, womanizer, cheater, manipulator, sociopath, narcisist, msogynist, theif, wolf and criminal ok? Â Is this the soiled focus you wrote about in your former post, or is that refering to something else? Â
This web board is a pretty tame one compared to others, is it you are wanting innies who come here not to be turned off by the language and negative feelings expressed here? Â There would have to be some heavy handed moderation in order to maintain this.
Is it ok to talk about how trashy some of these people were/are and how despicable some of their acts were/are?
I'm not trying to put you on the spot too much, but it seems like you are quick with the put downs when someone doesn't express themselves in the way you think they should, something which I never noticed until recently, which led me to think that there's something really bothering you about GS posters..
It just seems it's more than your disgust of use of slurs and low rent language, I agree with Dooje that using that language has to do more with context... you spelled out the N word, which I found distasteful.
I generally respect you and your postings, I just want you to clarify and get it off your chest, please excuse me if I'm a little dense and pollyannish about this topic.
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GarthP2000
Hey. Hey! HEY!
I happen to _like_ low rent. ... I can't afford that high rent, ya know.
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now I see
The slur and low rent language clause is a quote from Socks,
 not from me, I'm not sure we are able to exactly define what words fit into what category, some may classify certain words as common use, while others may not....
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socks
Like I wrote earlier, I ring in on this topic from different platforms periodically. I commented to the balance of opinions and labelling/"name calling" in last year's moderator discussion on the rewriting of the GS Forms "rules" language. This is nothing new, for me. From time to time I get personally insulted (gasp! oh my!!)
... Lets say "suprised"....by the way some of the things are written here.....not what is written, please note and trust me-not everything that can be written has been by any means.
Some of that's personal taste, of course. I'm adding my personal opionon on that here - feel free to disagree. I chuckle at the 'elusive' description because to me - it seems - like you're the one actually inferring something other than what you're writing. But again - that's me, these eyes and this brain. Feel free to discount it. I don't ask for anyone's respect here.
So this is nothing new, although I don't make a big deal out of it. Most of the GS posters communicate very well, in my opinion. There's cycles here that flow from a variety of unrelated conditions and when/as they do it's more noticeable to me. I do feel that while GS provides room and space for expression, that opportunity is lessened in effectiveness at times.
Actually, I'm readying to sign off of GS overall. It's not working for me, in terms of what I want to accomplish at this point of my life, and there's only so much of that from here to it's logical (albeit temporary) conclusion. Not sure what next steps are ahead along this line but something mobile and dynamic seems in order. I wish you and all well, my friend,.
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now I see
Socks, fair enough.
Thanks for the further explaination, if moving on is what you want, then so be it, it sure does sound like GS is not where it's at right now for you, I wish you well also, I've enjoyed reading your posts in the past and your involvement.Â
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JeffSjo
Dear Socks,
I hope this response is not too late.
I can see how someone can choose anonymity and BE accountable. In that sense it applies to character and not whether or not someone is able to be held accountable.
Considering the WAYGB, and TWI's history of abuse I fully am willing to fight for a place like this that allows people who have been abused the availability to be anonymous. Espescially as it seems it may be necessary for them to post their own thoughts without being counter attacked when it comes to family and friends.
And while it seems obvous that TWI knows the names of some of the supposedly anonymous posters here it also seems obvious that they may bully anyone who they think will let them get away with it. And unfortunately abuse victims are often prone to letting it happen again.
But the fact that I've used my own name does seem to heighten my sense of accountability for my words and my ideas in spite of all that.
I've been thinking lately that I believe the Lord will hold me completely accountable for my words whether or not I choose to be anonymous. So before Him my anonymity is a moot point. I guess I feel like if I know I'll be held accountable by Him, what freakin difference should it make to me what anyone else thinks of me?
But in regards to actually being pursued by TWI style bullies in real life; I'm generally feeling too irked by all the lies, deception, and what it has already cost me to care to much about whether or not that actually ever happens.
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JeffSjo
Somebody that I know recently shared with me that their view of anonymity was that it could be some kind of game.
And while this view is an opinion that anyone has the right to form I think that it is obvious that the issues here at the Greasespot neccessitate that choosing to remain anonymous is a valid option. And the most that anyone should do if they hold that view is choose to be forthcoming with their identity and leave everyone else alone.
But then there is the very human manner of seeking to earn a reputation. And since that particular issue seems to me to have been at times in TWI "a disease" of sorts the most that anyone should do who holds that view as important to them should choose to be anonymous and then leave everyone else alone.
I think only the Lord will ever be fully able to weigh the thoughts and intents of the heart and I believe that judgement is coming some day. In the mean time I guess I just try to do what is right for me and try not to start any divisive and pointless arguments. And for those who do not believe what I do I would be very glad if they simply choose not to start pointless and divisive arguments too. I'd like to think we could get along then!
(edited for grammar)
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JeffSjo
Some of the things I have been thinking about lately have led me to conclude that whether or not a person chooses anonymity is completely irrelevant compared to the things that I consider important.
A person can behave with a sense of accountability and be anonymous.
A person can also be completely wrapped up in their concern for their reputation more than anyone else's welfare and be anonymous too, heck, they can even talk about how they have a reputation based entirely on their avatar name for one thing or another.
I could go on and on with different examples of behaving good and bad..... but it seems to me that any motives or intents of the heart can be carried out...good or bad...totally independently as concerning one's choice to be anonymous or not.
And depending on the "hot button" issues that may be motivating us that particular day it seems resonable to me to expect a person's view of "the anonymity issue" may fluctuate... I call that being human.
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