How about not being anonymous.

[now I see]

Say it aint so Waysider!

[Bluzeman]

So Garth, if a Mexican does something really horrible, it's ok to use a slur such as wetback then?

I'll be sure to remember that. Slurs are ok, as long as enough people in the group hate someone of that nationality.

Oh, and I don't have to ask Excathedra ANYTHING dude, I've talked to her more than a few times. I don't know vp, never heard of the way till he was dead and don't give a damn about him. I'm talking about using a slur that insults a whole country. But if you're that small-minded, go for it.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Bluzeman

[GarthP2000]

Bluze and Linda,

My insult was specifically aimed at Wierwille. And ONLY Wierwille. And no other German (or anyone else for that matter) BUT Wierwille. So I think that the rest of the German populace can survive and thrive despite my 'small mindedness'.

You'll live.

And that is all I have to say about the matter.

[now I see]

You know wetback has gone outa style, I haven't heard it used in quite a while, I hear "beaner" or "illegal" quite a bit more, those two carry the same sentiment as the first though.... ;)

[socks]

The "Kraut" usage is fascinating. I love it. It's a derogatory term for a German, used historically as a slang slam against Germans. And by your decision with Weirwille, appropriate, Garth.

Which is fine, you just have to expect that there may be a negative response to it. Like calling an African-American - a nig ger. Not all African Americans of course, as you've stated - just one someone feels deserves the term applied to that one person.

Hmmm - Okay, but don't be suprised if your head gets kicked in by someone who hears it and takes offense to it and then realizes afterwards they can't put your skull back together to say they're sorry they misunderstood. Silly I know, "PC" and woeful behavior but a reality.

It's just fascinating that we can use racial slurs on the board, applied to Weirwille, and it's okay. But not, as you've noted, applied to all Germans. Of course.

You have every right. I'd still advise - watch your head. But no problem, noperz.

[GarthP2000]

Socks,

You know why your argument, skillfully argued be it that, ... fails?

Because the German people, as a whole, didn't go thru centuries of enslavement, and being depicted as a 'scientifically' and 'biblically' inferior race. The Black race did. And that ain't PC either; that's historical fact.

Ie., if Wierwille was black, I would not have used the N word, mainly for that reason.

And as per someone who might want to 'kick my head in' because I am referring to Wierwille as the aforementioned 'kraut' term, I say ... "Go for it!" ... I have a nasty habit of kicking back.

Edited June 14, 2009 by GarthP2000

[now I see]

Yeah!  Its not like he cheated on his wife or raped some young girl or even drove someone to suicide!  Geez!  Let's have some respect!

If it wasn't so funny, it would be really sad.   :(

[waysider]

Well, he WAS "sour", dontcha know!

[Bramble]

Hey! Vitamin rich kraut and black bread were why the barbarians were able to sack Rome--all those unhealthy Romans eating more refined food!

I read it in a book.

[Bluzeman]

And as per someone who might want to 'kick my head in' because I am referring to Wierwille as the aforementioned 'kraut' term, I say ... "Go for it!" ... I have a nasty habit of kicking back.

Ooo, big man behind the computer. You throw that term around with my Cousin's GERMAN husband around I guarantee he will kick your teeth in. And you would go running like a scared little girl.

OK Moderator's, if you allow slurs against one group, I don't expect to see anyone moderated for using slurs against ANY group. If that's how you want this board to be, so be it.

And a slur is a slur, I don't care how much you detest an individual, it's still wrong.

[Oakspear]

I initially was anonymous because I was an "innie" and my wife wanted to stay in, I wanted to say my piece without getting any undue attention in the "real" world.

"Oakspear" was not my original handle I used a few:

• Taoiseach (not "Tao Search" by the way, but a Gaelic term)
  
• Tyril III (later just Twyril) - a character in a short story that I wrote in high school. I used both handles for a while to confuse the WayGB
  
• John Oakspear - I had lost the password to Taoiseach and wanted a "backup" handle - again to confuse the WayGB.
  
• Oakspear - I dropped the "John" and adopted Oakspear as my only handle after the WayGB made a good guess that I was Twyril and "confronted" me about it
  

I, like some others, use the name Oakpsear in "real" life. I use it as my middle name on my business cards and most of the GSers that I know personally call me that in person.

I'm not shy about anyone knowing my legal name, if you google my legal name and "Oakspear" I'll come up a few times

[socks]

Okay, let's get out the dictionaries and history books and beat it to death. "Kraut", the movie, coming to a dump near you.

To me, IMO, in this scratchie little noggin it's an indicator of the character and quality of a person's thinking and communication. The words thing, the words we choose. I know - call me nutty. There - felt better didn't it?

And of course *tada* - the ubiquitous all-purpose excuse appears by even those who see and see very well - on GS if it's about Weirwille, it doesn't matter what's said or how it's said or what the terms of engagement are. There are none - "do as thou wilt" - return evil for evil, act as one wants and as much as one wants and in as many ways as one wants. It''s - how's it go - "good therapy"......? I think I read that here awhile back.

If he'd been Hispanic, what would he be called? If he'd been Italian-o-ski, what would the pile of pejoratives be? Japanese? Several goodun's for Asians. Why limit it to one single nationality? Let's start using them all. "WOW" right? I'm sure one of the geniuses here can figure out a platform to support that.

Sorry - to me, IMO - It's just a weak way to communicate and it surprises me that anyone of intelligence (Garth you're highly qualified in that category) would make that allowance with an excuse. But I'm not perfect either, so I understand.

I work for a company that's owned by a larger German company, so it's kind of funny now that I thunk about it and I did a little for a sec there. You'd want to have a big disclaimer on your head if you used that term on a conference call, I gar-awn-tee.

But this is GS. Standards here are...well, I guess they're just...not...you know what i mean. Like that, and stuff.

[GarthP2000]

Bluze,

Ooo, big man behind the computer. You throw that term around with my Cousin's GERMAN husband around I guarantee he will kick your teeth in. And you would go running like a scared little girl.

Hehehe, look who's talking.

You throw that term around with my Cousin's GERMAN husband around ...

... only if he does the same things Wierwille did. Then yeah, I'd call him that, ... in a heartbeat, ... then would give him a severe re-enactment of D-Day on his a** if he tried to 'kick my teeth in'. ... Remember, _we_ beat _them_ back in '45.

OK Moderator's, if you allow slurs against one group, I don't expect to see anyone moderated for using slurs against ANY group. If that's how you want this board to be, so be it.

Go read again what I posted earlier on why I use that term against Wierwille, and think about what you read. If I were using that term against Germans in general, _then_ you'd have a good point.

Also, if you'll remember your WWI and WWII history, we used that term against German soldiers of the German nation. Specifically. Rather than (in most cases) the entire German people. (Well, during WWI, the prejudice was more broad in that many Germans during that period were discriminated against.) But I'll bet if you ask any WWII vet what he called the German enemy back then, he'd say 'kraut', and (mostly) he wouldn't apologize about it.

Keep in mind that you can't compare the German people and say, the Blacks, and that for the reason I gave before. And German culture helps to color them that way too; having authority strongly engrained in their culture and all that. (Feh! Weirwille's germanic origins and cultural influence reflecting all that has been mentioned many a time on this board, and not _once_ have you whined about slurs/cultural stereotyping then. Huh?? What gives on that? <_< )

And a slur is a slur, I don't care how much you detest an individual, it's still wrong.

No, not in this case, and not in how I specifically and _exclusively_ used it against Wierwille. And if your Germanic cousin-in-law can't stand me referring to Wierwille alone as a kraut, for all the reasons that I gave, ... tough. And since (I am going to presume) he is not the same kind of sexually abusive, tyrannical, malvolent, arrogant, NeoNazi that Wierwille was, ... he shouldn't have any problem with it.

I stand by what I say. ... Hell, Wierwille is getting off easy.

P.S., here's one way of looking at it. Think of 'kraut' as meaning a 'slimeball of a German'. Wierwille _was_ of German stock, and he _was_ a slimeball. ... Problem solved.

Socks,

Sorry - to me, IMO - It's just a weak way to communicate and it surprises me that anyone of intelligence (Garth you're highly qualified in that category) would make that allowance with an excuse. But I'm not perfect either, so I understand.

There are and have been a lot of people of intelligence (and thank you for the compliment, BTW) who let fly with scathing remarks and 'slurs' when they honestly felt the target was deserving of such. Ever listen to some of Winston Churchill's remarks against those he had no respect for? ... And for good reason? ... Ohhh, like the terms he used against Hitler maybe? ... Miss Manners he was _not_! And I seriously doubt that he viewed himself as being brought down because of it. Sometimes you got to hammer the scum for what they are. Perfect and appropriate for VPW.

I work for a company that's owned by a larger German company, so it's kind of funny now that I thunk about it and I did a little for a sec there. You'd want to have a big disclaimer on your head if you used that term on a conference call, I gar-awn-tee.

Well, I tell ya. If they allowed for the same kind of abusive and malevolent crap that VPW allowed for, I'd be calling them a bunch of krauts too on that conference call. ... And without apology either.

[RumRunner]

George Carlin - warning R-rated

[socks]

Actually, I chime in about once a year on the slur/terms/crap-communication topic. Far back as Waydale, in this board's context. It's never gotten any traction overall but I continue to do so when it strikes me, for no other reason than I think it's important and perhaps it will help those who post here to "recover". In much the same way Carlin points out, as long as we use these terms and words to reflect negatives we're empowering them and giving them their strength. No one can say it's in the eyes of the reader when the context clearly communicates a negative - it must mean something and it does.

I like Carlin, a lot. Or did while he was alive and still appreciate his thoughts, funny and otherwise.) But his point is a good one. Look at Michael Richard's effort to make a similar point couple years ago - he was way out of his league.

A term used in a negative context speaks for itelf - I could say "warm and fuzzy" and mean something very negative by it.

It doesn't matter if it shouldn't mean such and such. When the context defines it as negative, it's negative.

The word "kraut" is only representative of the way topics are engaged here on GS, and I realize that's completely acceptable and reasonable to some of you. That's my point and it may spark some alternative thinking here and there, maybe a little, maybe a lot, maybe not at all.

[now I see]

The word "kraut" is only representative of the way topics are engaged here on GS, and I realize that's completely acceptable and reasonable to some of you. That's my point and it may spark some alternative thinking here and there, maybe a little, maybe a lot, maybe not at all.

Ok, I'll bite...

Why can't people heal at their own pace, why does there have to be an attitude police here that mandates nothing derogatory be said about VPee?  People react differently to the news of VPee's pervertedness, the many horrors of his life and twi's rule.  Why is there this constant  attempt to regulate everyone's own response to that?  

People will forgive when THEY'RE ready to forgive, everyone's timeline is different, I don't think it can be mandated by someone else.  I think being an example of it (forgiveness) is a bigger witness than beating someone over the head with it.

Edited June 15, 2009 by now I see

[Linda Z]

Ok, I'll bite...

Why can't people heal at their own pace, why does there have to be an attitude police here that mandates nothing derogatory be said about VPee?  People react differently to the news of VPee's pervertedness, the many horrors of his life and twi's rule.  Why is there this constant  attempt to regulate everyone's own response to that?  

People will forgive when THEY'RE ready to forgive, everyone's timeline is different, I don't think it can be mandated by someone else.  I think being an example of it (forgiveness) is a bigger witness than beating someone over the head with it.

Now I See, as I said in my first post, it has nothing to do with VPW and nothing to do with whether one chooses for forgive him. My objection is not about him. To call someone you consider evil by a negative term that's used for a whole nation of people is a slur against those people. The insult is to Germans.

I don't see any "attitude police" here. I see people disagreeing. It happens.

And Garth, lots of Americans called Japanese people "Japs" during and after WWII, too, in a derogatory way, but by now we surely know that there are many fine Japanese people and they are not the enemy. Neither are Germans still our enemies.

This is the last thing I have to say on the subject, because you, Garth, have clearly "dug in" on this topic and think you're right. It's your privilege, but your arguments don't fly with me.

[now I see]

Sorry, LindaZ, just to clarify, my comments are not directed at the Kraut comment, I am speaking toward a specific undercurrent attitude present at GS, that I believe Socks has been alluding to for some time.  It is directly related to the quote on my post.

I actually think the racial slur argument is a little trivial since no one is gonna make Garth say he's sorry, he's stated that is the way he feels....the thread originally was about a more important topic than racial slurs in my opinion, but I digress.

I am more upset the N word got spelled out in two separate sylables, but to be democratic, if we allow kraut we have to allow the N word spelling reference...so be it.

(edited for clarity)

Edited June 15, 2009 by now I see

[Linda Z]

Thanks for the clarification, Now I See. I did misunderstand where you were going with your comments.

[GarthP2000]

((this post revised after thinking thru my initial rezounding zinger using my oft used 'diplomatic manner' ;) that, hell, I think I ought to copyright © :D ))

Ok folks. How about this Revision 2, 'politically correct', non-specific group offending, alternative Title for VPW:

sexually abusive, tyrannical, malevolent, arrogant, NeoNazi who had one helluva drinking problem

True, it is indeed quite a mouthful, but hey, at least it isn't a swipe at a race/class/nationality of people. Unless you think that sexually abusive, tyrannical, malevolent, arrogant, NeoNazis who have one helluva drinking problem constitutes a class.

Then, I'm afraid I just can't help ya. Then I'll have to go back to my rezounding zingers using my oft used 'diplomatic manner'. ;)

How's that for all of you?

[now I see]

Bravo Garth!!

[geisha779]

((this post revised after thinking thru my initial rezounding zinger using my oft used 'diplomatic manner' ;) that, hell, I think I ought to copyright © :D ))

Ok folks. How about this Revision 2, 'politically correct', non-specific group offending, alternative Title for VPW:

sexually abusive, tyrannical, malevolent, arrogant, NeoNazi who had one helluva drinking problem

True, it is indeed quite a mouthful, but hey, at least it isn't a swipe at a race/class/nationality of people. Unless you think that sexually abusive, tyrannical, malevolent, arrogant, NeoNazis who have one helluva drinking problem constitutes a class.

Then, I'm afraid I just can't help ya. Then I'll have to go back to my rezounding zingers using my oft used 'diplomatic manner'. ;)

How's that for all of you?

I give it a 98. . . nice beat, easy to dance to. . .fits Vpee to a tee. . .

[socks]

The "politically correct" reference is a hoot, Garth, in one syllable. The fact you view not using slurs and low-rent language as being politically correct just continues to illustrate how GS promotes and protects bottom feeding to get points across. But Pawtucket can't guarantee quality or intelligent discourse, the board is a blank slate. I've come to expect some graffiti level, restroom stall-door scratchings.

Now that I've seen this is acceptable and a pattern I know the limits are much broader than I've restricted myself to. I see lots of possibilities. So be it.

[now I see]

Socks, why are you so offended if someone uses harsh language to describe their feelings toward vpw and twi?  

[GarthP2000]

Socks,

GS standards aren't any worse than society's at large, or even worse than many other boards that I have seen. As a matter of fact, I've seen Paw be more strict here than a lot of other places elsewhere.

And really, given what I honestly feel about Weirwille (as well as most people around here), I've gone as far as I'm going to go in the 'civilized' direction. (Remember what I said re: Churchill? Look up some of his comments, particularly where he is talking about the people whom he had no respect for, or even some of his political opponents! ... You gonna consider him a 'bottom feeder' too? Gotta be consistent here now.)

And say 'Hi!' to Oldies for me, ok? ;)