Based on direct costs it certainly was a loss. I'm not so certain after you factor in Corps tuition and other indirect income that the properties enabled TWI to collect.
That's a good point.
Use FLO as an example.
I have no idea what Limb HQ cost to acquire or what it was sold for.
(I do know that it is very prime real estate at the moment.)
But, at any given moment in time you had a group of 50 individuals who contracted (Yes, we had to sign a contract that stated we must ABS to remain in the program.) Plus, we paid into a rent fund, a Fellow Laborer fund, paid our own utilities, financially participated in a mandatory food co-op and provided all the various and sundry items necessary to run each house without the financial aid of TWI. AND, we took care of and improved the Limb HQ for free as part of the program. They had to have been realizing a profit by our mere participation.
Among other things, it was Wierwille's way of saying he doesn't have to listen to anybody, so don't dare criticize him.
Isn't that the truth...It was when I openly questioned Wierwille's doctrines to twi leadership (1987), that my name went on the "spiritual poop list"...It's fair to say that twi looked at Vic as the catholics look at the pope...and the whole ball of wax was based on the snow on the gaspumps story....hard to believe that I was that dumb. Oh well, at least now I am qualified to post on an anti cult website... :)
I kept getting yelled at for missing revelation. I didn't recognize God talking to me, but everyone else knew when He spoke to me.
Especially Linder.
Geez, I LOVE your post!!!
That right there shows ya what a manipulative game they had going on! In my opinion, the "authority" of a TWI leader to stick their nose into your business and tell you what to do was partly based on the PFAL bullchi+ that if you had your ears closed to God's guidance - you'd be hearing from heaven another way.
I can't even enumerate the number of times I experienced what you said and feeling like an idiot for missing God's revelation as a leader tears me a new one...What a joke! The frequent experiences of leadership commandeering other folks' lives shows me what a FARCE this revelation business was/is! .....yeah it's a "revelation" business alright - an enterprising principle based on chief con artist vp to make a buck off folks!
I kept getting yelled at for missing revelation. I didn't recognize God talking to me, but everyone else knew when He spoke to me.
Especially Linder.
I learned how to answer this one.
"God didn't tell me - SO HE MUST HAVE TOLD YOU!"
I mean - GEEZ! - as a human parent, do you (ahem) "Luv your children so much" that you talk to them under you breath?
And think about it folks, (and innies) if Gawd's voice is so hard to recognize, then perhaps the Advanced Class isn't worth a tiny little rat's tushie.
If revelation was something that you couldn't figure out by your five senses - then perhaps that explains the hairbrained decisions made by so many. (Heck! It's not logical... OH! I know! It must be a thought from on high!)
such irony that the way screwed themselves too often with "revelation" because if you look at it maybe god was telling them those stupid things to do so that people would leave and money would shrink. but "revelation" that my mother and brothers and sister did was always like going to see miss cleo or something, they would stand in the middle of the room with their hands to their foreheads and say just a minute, just a minute god's telling me something you need to know, and it was always how i could "bless" them by doing what they told me to do or what was wrong with me or what was going to happen to me if i didn't obey them "in the lord".
but something else that comes up from this discussion is how much people knew the way was doing stupidly. it makes me more confused about things.
That right there shows ya what a manipulative game they had going on! In my opinion, the "authority" of a TWI leader to stick their nose into your business and tell you what to do was partly based on the PFAL bullchi+ that if you had your ears closed to God's guidance - you'd be hearing from heaven another way.
I can't even enumerate the number of times I experienced what you said and feeling like an idiot for missing God's revelation as a leader tears me a new one...What a joke! The frequent experiences of leadership commandeering other folks' lives shows me what a FARCE this revelation business was/is! .....yeah it's a "revelation" business alright - an enterprising principle based on chief con artist vp to make a buck off folks!
I think what irritates me more is some people's eagerness/desire to accept it. They start looking at everything someone does as revelation inspired.
I was being guided through the tools in the autoshop at HQ once and a mechanic told me "If your engine catches on fire, use the CO2 fire extinguisher over there because of the electrical stuff or getting goo on your engine yada yada"
A few weeks later someone was working there and smoke or fire was coming out of an engine or something and the person working on it grabbed a fire extinguisher of a different type. The mechanic said "NO, grab that extinguisher over there!" The right extinguisher was used and all was well.
That guy later was telling me and others about the mechanic's ability to listen to revy, because he knew in an instant to grab the correct fire extinguisher. He was all amazed going into spiritual talk and people were there to eat it up.
I went and rained on his parade and was like "dude, he knew what to do ahead of time, I know because he told me. He's an experienced mechanic!"
I think what irritates me more is some people's eagerness/desire to accept it. They start looking at everything someone does as revelation inspired.
I was being guided through the tools in the autoshop at HQ once and a mechanic told me "If your engine catches on fire, use the CO2 fire extinguisher over there because of the electrical stuff or getting goo on your engine yada yada"
A few weeks later someone was working there and smoke or fire was coming out of an engine or something and the person working on it grabbed a fire extinguisher of a different type. The mechanic said "NO, grab that extinguisher over there!" The right extinguisher was used and all was well.
That guy later was telling me and others about the mechanic's ability to listen to revy, because he knew in an instant to grab the correct fire extinguisher. He was all amazed going into spiritual talk and people were there to eat it up.
I went and rained on his parade and was like "dude, he knew what to do ahead of time, I know because he told me. He's an experienced mechanic!"
i dated a guy that was just like that "hevvy revvy" thinking guy, and boy was he totally into way thinking to the point that he "sit" to get "revelation" about when to eat even! it used to irritate me to no end to think that he was that dumb, but then when i got me brain straightened out and learned about why people do such things and let things get so far with them, then i began to understand and really began to understand when i started to look at my own self and where i had let all sorts of people that weren't always way people lead me aorund in my thinking. what i get irritated at now is when i talk to people and they are scoffing and belittling about others that have this problem while what they're saying is straight out of some group they're in and they think that everybody else had the problem and they don't. that bugs the you know what out of me, but i figure if i look hard enough at my own self i'll see how i do just that too, so there you are and what can i do about it when it's somebody else anyway, and what am i going to do about it when it's me? burns burns burns that never ending ring of fire.
TWI paid about $1.7 mill for Emporia, $2 mill for Rome City purchase price plus renovation) in 1974 and 1977. TWI sold them later for $750,000 each in 1991 and 1999 (not counting ongoing repairs on the old buildings).
Figuring in the fact that 1990s dollars are worth much less than 1970s dollars (and the fact the campuses spent years vacant), a whole lot of well-meaning tithes were lost by leadership error.
As much as the trustees talked about "the best," they seemed to have no eye for value.
Are you kidding? How could that land have depreciated so much? Especially Rome City? I find that hard to believe. I would believe it if they were sold in today's environment, but the 90's were "boom" years for real estate. Even bad real estate.
This is like the Personal prophecy that spirit and truth got into to.
To me it dismisses Gods Power.
I think I have grown in this area. or changed or something dam middle age but anyway..
I have seen the power of christ in folks and been assured within my own spirit that itwas a holy voice I was listening to but not considered it revelation.
It is like their better and best idea .. wrong at its root the concpet is about controling another and being like God.
The bible is revelation yet how much confusion arises out of what does that verse really mean etc...
it can be confusing to me I can understand how one just says well they have known the Lord longer or taking the class more etc and just trust the wrong source.
Many coming away from twi hadtrust issues for this reason and and many badly burned souls with real hurt hearts.
God give revelation.. who can stop God even if Im not listening will he just give up?
I remember the teaching about Mary being the mother of jesus and she was the only one willing to believe in the conception that god had to wait till she was willing to concieve Jesus christ...
I do not believe it . But im not searching for the definite answer on how God works like twi did either I think it come to the trust and faith God aks us to live within. I believe God can make anything happen if it is good for his children.
I think God knows His own as does the Lord even better as he lived and breathed as a man.
I have made mistakes i have not listened and suffered and hurt others.... so has my own children. Such is the path of a life that needs forgivness.
God cares about our spirit life and our soul life. But like us withour own grown children I make my own choices to walk my own call or path.
revelation is NOT needed to live life.
it isnt plently do just fine without it. Twi said it was needed to live I do not believe that.
It is great to have and part of the wonder of God like beautiful nature .
If i think God is telling me some fact I should know I know now to question to the nith degree why? Because God is all powerful and Im not.
Satan can and does play hard in the areanan of life and is also aware of how I may think .
deception and lies come easy to the god of this world. He can work in the same manner as the Power from on high.
For me it is really the bible that makes the difference, If I know the bible says I should not or I should I cling to that fact first and far most and believe god will answer that.
Not all is written and the Lord has metioned this to me plently of times but what is written and understood IS for me.
it is all I got other than to trust in what man can say or do to me which is a lesser option. I am tempted on a daily bases by good christian folks to sway from what I believe to be truth and it is a difficult path at times.
Seek the lord and all these things will be added unto you.
It can befrightening at times to think I missed revelation and folks from twi got beat to death by this notion.
Stop and know god is better than what we may think .
I try to stay humble and love one another and pray a great deal to increase my trust in God.
Are you kidding? How could that land have depreciated so much? Especially Rome City? I find that hard to believe. I would believe it if they were sold in today's environment, but the 90's were "boom" years for real estate. Even bad real estate.
Perhaps the inference is that twi overpaid. Far, far over paid..
They got fixer uppers for a pretty hefty price tag.. free labor though, for the most part..
here's a quote from an article on www.abouttheway.org
"The Way International sold The Way College of Biblical Research-- Indiana Campus at Rome City in northeast Indiana in December, 1999. The Fort Wayne Journal Gazette reported that Sylvan Springs paid $750,000 for the 197 acres of land, 30 buildings, furniture and equipment. Sylvan will use the facility for family enrichment programs. "
There are more details in that and other articles on both Rome City and Emporia, documenting prices and amounts TWI said it paid on renovation.
Did fees paid by students cover the costs of both property and ongoing operations? Not likely, especially in the same of Rome City. RC was open only about 10 years before TWI imploded and splintered. Plus, even when campuses are empty or near empty (as they were for a few years), there are fixed overhead costs for utilities, maintenance staff, etc. You can't let it look like a wreck when you want to sell it.
At any rate, selling a property for only one-third of the investment costs is bad propertry management no matter what your income was while you had it. Wise busienss is to profit by both net income and property appreciation.
The "revvie" deal was pervasive throughout the Way, leadership and twig members alike, although it was worse with Corps people. It seemed like once someone learned a little of the Way's teachings, it went to their head and arrogance ensued. They used the "revelation" spiel to try to get you to do what THEY wanted, and who knows, maybe they believed they were really getting revelation from God. Either way, it was as if they believed only they were getting revelation from God and not the people with whom they were dealing. There were plenty of Way people who weren't above spreading some story about me which was a flat out lie. If they were really listening to God, then they would have known better.
There were plenty of Way people who weren't above spreading some story about me which was a flat out lie. If they were really listening to God, then they would have known better.
Lies are the air they breathe. Through information control, they rule. This is why the mark and avoid thing functionally will never go away no matter what terms they use for it. Because one on one, face to face, telling the truth, people awaken to their tactics and the evil in them. They must prevent this at all costs.
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waysider
That's a good point.
Use FLO as an example.
I have no idea what Limb HQ cost to acquire or what it was sold for.
(I do know that it is very prime real estate at the moment.)
But, at any given moment in time you had a group of 50 individuals who contracted (Yes, we had to sign a contract that stated we must ABS to remain in the program.) Plus, we paid into a rent fund, a Fellow Laborer fund, paid our own utilities, financially participated in a mandatory food co-op and provided all the various and sundry items necessary to run each house without the financial aid of TWI. AND, we took care of and improved the Limb HQ for free as part of the program. They had to have been realizing a profit by our mere participation.
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excathedra
this revelation thing is silly
and if you have something that really worked out between you and god (which i believe in), that's really nice
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Bolshevik
I kept getting yelled at for missing revelation. I didn't recognize God talking to me, but everyone else knew when He spoke to me.
Especially Linder.
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waysider
maybe he caught it on surveillance cam.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Isn't that the truth...It was when I openly questioned Wierwille's doctrines to twi leadership (1987), that my name went on the "spiritual poop list"...It's fair to say that twi looked at Vic as the catholics look at the pope...and the whole ball of wax was based on the snow on the gaspumps story....hard to believe that I was that dumb. Oh well, at least now I am qualified to post on an anti cult website... :)
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T-Bone
Geez, I LOVE your post!!!
That right there shows ya what a manipulative game they had going on! In my opinion, the "authority" of a TWI leader to stick their nose into your business and tell you what to do was partly based on the PFAL bullchi+ that if you had your ears closed to God's guidance - you'd be hearing from heaven another way.
I can't even enumerate the number of times I experienced what you said and feeling like an idiot for missing God's revelation as a leader tears me a new one...What a joke! The frequent experiences of leadership commandeering other folks' lives shows me what a FARCE this revelation business was/is! .....yeah it's a "revelation" business alright - an enterprising principle based on chief con artist vp to make a buck off folks!
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doojable
"God didn't tell me - SO HE MUST HAVE TOLD YOU!"
I mean - GEEZ! - as a human parent, do you (ahem) "Luv your children so much" that you talk to them under you breath?
And think about it folks, (and innies) if Gawd's voice is so hard to recognize, then perhaps the Advanced Class isn't worth a tiny little rat's tushie.
If revelation was something that you couldn't figure out by your five senses - then perhaps that explains the hairbrained decisions made by so many. (Heck! It's not logical... OH! I know! It must be a thought from on high!)
What idiocy...
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brainfixed
such irony that the way screwed themselves too often with "revelation" because if you look at it maybe god was telling them those stupid things to do so that people would leave and money would shrink.
but "revelation" that my mother and brothers and sister did was always like going to see miss cleo or something, they would stand in the middle of the room with their hands to their foreheads and say just a minute, just a minute god's telling me something you need to know, and it was always how i could "bless" them by doing what they told me to do or what was wrong with me or what was going to happen to me if i didn't obey them "in the lord".
but something else that comes up from this discussion is how much people knew the way was doing stupidly. it makes me more confused about things.
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Bolshevik
I think what irritates me more is some people's eagerness/desire to accept it. They start looking at everything someone does as revelation inspired.
I was being guided through the tools in the autoshop at HQ once and a mechanic told me "If your engine catches on fire, use the CO2 fire extinguisher over there because of the electrical stuff or getting goo on your engine yada yada"
A few weeks later someone was working there and smoke or fire was coming out of an engine or something and the person working on it grabbed a fire extinguisher of a different type. The mechanic said "NO, grab that extinguisher over there!" The right extinguisher was used and all was well.
That guy later was telling me and others about the mechanic's ability to listen to revy, because he knew in an instant to grab the correct fire extinguisher. He was all amazed going into spiritual talk and people were there to eat it up.
I went and rained on his parade and was like "dude, he knew what to do ahead of time, I know because he told me. He's an experienced mechanic!"
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potato
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brainfixed
i dated a guy that was just like that "hevvy revvy" thinking guy, and boy was he totally into way thinking to the point that he "sit" to get "revelation" about when to eat even! it used to irritate me to no end to think that he was that dumb, but then when i got me brain straightened out and learned about why people do such things and let things get so far with them, then i began to understand and really began to understand when i started to look at my own self and where i had let all sorts of people that weren't always way people lead me aorund in my thinking. what i get irritated at now is when i talk to people and they are scoffing and belittling about others that have this problem while what they're saying is straight out of some group they're in and they think that everybody else had the problem and they don't. that bugs the you know what out of me, but i figure if i look hard enough at my own self i'll see how i do just that too, so there you are and what can i do about it when it's somebody else anyway, and what am i going to do about it when it's me? burns burns burns that never ending ring of fire.
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Broken Arrow
Are you kidding? How could that land have depreciated so much? Especially Rome City? I find that hard to believe. I would believe it if they were sold in today's environment, but the 90's were "boom" years for real estate. Even bad real estate.
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TheInvisibleDan
Why limit the topic of the (lack of) Christian "discernment" to twi - when considering that a good many Christians of all stripes cast their lots
for a supposed Christian president whose administration over these past 8 years got our country mired in 2 wars, did considerable damage to
our reputation abroad, and put our country into a hole? Not to overlook the corruption and violations to human rights. Just saying.
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pond
This is like the Personal prophecy that spirit and truth got into to.
To me it dismisses Gods Power.
I think I have grown in this area. or changed or something dam middle age but anyway..
I have seen the power of christ in folks and been assured within my own spirit that itwas a holy voice I was listening to but not considered it revelation.
It is like their better and best idea .. wrong at its root the concpet is about controling another and being like God.
The bible is revelation yet how much confusion arises out of what does that verse really mean etc...
it can be confusing to me I can understand how one just says well they have known the Lord longer or taking the class more etc and just trust the wrong source.
Many coming away from twi hadtrust issues for this reason and and many badly burned souls with real hurt hearts.
God give revelation.. who can stop God even if Im not listening will he just give up?
I remember the teaching about Mary being the mother of jesus and she was the only one willing to believe in the conception that god had to wait till she was willing to concieve Jesus christ...
I do not believe it . But im not searching for the definite answer on how God works like twi did either I think it come to the trust and faith God aks us to live within. I believe God can make anything happen if it is good for his children.
I think God knows His own as does the Lord even better as he lived and breathed as a man.
I have made mistakes i have not listened and suffered and hurt others.... so has my own children. Such is the path of a life that needs forgivness.
God cares about our spirit life and our soul life. But like us withour own grown children I make my own choices to walk my own call or path.
revelation is NOT needed to live life.
it isnt plently do just fine without it. Twi said it was needed to live I do not believe that.
It is great to have and part of the wonder of God like beautiful nature .
If i think God is telling me some fact I should know I know now to question to the nith degree why? Because God is all powerful and Im not.
Satan can and does play hard in the areanan of life and is also aware of how I may think .
deception and lies come easy to the god of this world. He can work in the same manner as the Power from on high.
For me it is really the bible that makes the difference, If I know the bible says I should not or I should I cling to that fact first and far most and believe god will answer that.
Not all is written and the Lord has metioned this to me plently of times but what is written and understood IS for me.
it is all I got other than to trust in what man can say or do to me which is a lesser option. I am tempted on a daily bases by good christian folks to sway from what I believe to be truth and it is a difficult path at times.
Seek the lord and all these things will be added unto you.
It can befrightening at times to think I missed revelation and folks from twi got beat to death by this notion.
Stop and know god is better than what we may think .
I try to stay humble and love one another and pray a great deal to increase my trust in God.
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chockfull
Actually nothing amazes me more than the overall state of the lack of Christian discernment.
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Ham
Perhaps the inference is that twi overpaid. Far, far over paid..
They got fixer uppers for a pretty hefty price tag.. free labor though, for the most part..
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johnj
here's a quote from an article on www.abouttheway.org
"The Way International sold The Way College of Biblical Research-- Indiana Campus at Rome City in northeast Indiana in December, 1999. The Fort Wayne Journal Gazette reported that Sylvan Springs paid $750,000 for the 197 acres of land, 30 buildings, furniture and equipment. Sylvan will use the facility for family enrichment programs. "
There are more details in that and other articles on both Rome City and Emporia, documenting prices and amounts TWI said it paid on renovation.
Did fees paid by students cover the costs of both property and ongoing operations? Not likely, especially in the same of Rome City. RC was open only about 10 years before TWI imploded and splintered. Plus, even when campuses are empty or near empty (as they were for a few years), there are fixed overhead costs for utilities, maintenance staff, etc. You can't let it look like a wreck when you want to sell it.
At any rate, selling a property for only one-third of the investment costs is bad propertry management no matter what your income was while you had it. Wise busienss is to profit by both net income and property appreciation.
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excathedra
oh revelation and wisdom go hand in hand ?
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waysider
Maybe VPW should have taken the Advanced Class.
*********************************
Page 6
WORD OF WISDOM
"---is the manifestation of Word of Knowledge applied."
(ie: What to do with Word of Knowledge once it's been given to you.)
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smarter
The "revvie" deal was pervasive throughout the Way, leadership and twig members alike, although it was worse with Corps people. It seemed like once someone learned a little of the Way's teachings, it went to their head and arrogance ensued. They used the "revelation" spiel to try to get you to do what THEY wanted, and who knows, maybe they believed they were really getting revelation from God. Either way, it was as if they believed only they were getting revelation from God and not the people with whom they were dealing. There were plenty of Way people who weren't above spreading some story about me which was a flat out lie. If they were really listening to God, then they would have known better.
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chockfull
Lies are the air they breathe. Through information control, they rule. This is why the mark and avoid thing functionally will never go away no matter what terms they use for it. Because one on one, face to face, telling the truth, people awaken to their tactics and the evil in them. They must prevent this at all costs.
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