just when i was wondering how i was going to stay on the topic of discussion you came along and said "There ya go. It is difficult, particularly if that process is going to mean a change in who we "are", as opposed to how we look, or act". here the question for me is how much of my "authentic self" is genetic, and if it's even a little more than "not enough" then i have to ask how much "genetic memory" shapes what i feel is my "authentic self", but science has yet to recognize "genetic memory" as a viable premise, so what do i do now? :)
i am genetically and environmentally predisposed to have a middle level intelligence, lots of anger, multiple addictions and a whole lot of what seems to often end up being impoverished and physically and mentally ill and just barely getting along in life, but until i worked very hard at changing these seeming unavoidable "results" in my life, that's where my life was at. and there's something that i think has everything to do with "(re)(un)covering the "authentic" you" because choice is at the base of even feeling like i have an "authentic self". so now i'm thinking that maybe when i talk about the way stealing my soul that maybe i am talking about the way limiting my choices? i don't know, but it seems to be coming around to this very point.
I don't see why you'd say that. thoughts are kinda dependent on a functioning physical brain. no physical brain, no thoughts.
ok you don't see why i'd say that, and i'm tired of trying to explain because i obviously am not explaining it good enough and what does it all matter in the end anyway, and does it really have anything to do with the discussion any longer? so all that being said i think i'm going to contemplate these "choice" thoughts (haha) i've had and see if i can say anything else relating to the original discussion here. whewie it's been a funny ride discussing this. :)
Consciousness, the "you" that identifies itself as unique and not something else and defines itself locally to your body, has yet to be measured and weighed. Science does it's part and a big part but I think (*think*) that the strength of science is that it understands it's boundaries and means of endeavor. How something like human conciousness reveals itself through scientific means may or may not define it, in part or in ful or even correctly.
Religion ("religion") and theology, likewise. These two aren't exclusive but cooperation has proven to be difficult when they aren't allowed to inform each other or speak for themselves. Not that that's what you're doing, just sayin' here.
Is this what's called a dualistic approach?
Genetics won't account for everything. In fact, a unique aspect to human "self" life is the ability to choose for or agains't one's own predications and to even choose right over wrong, as perceived. Bad over good. . . .
machines can be programmed to see options and make a decision based on those. of course we're a bit more complicated.
. . . . . . .
anyway, this "authentic you" stuff is reminiscent of "god's still, small voice" propaganda. Sit still and listen, can ya hear it?
anyway, this "authentic you" stuff is reminiscent of "god's still, small voice" propaganda. Sit still and listen, can ya hear it?
oh i'm so glad you brought this up because in therapy i learned that "god's still, small voice" is none other than my own self, so it was absolutely shocking for me to comprehend that i am my own best counselor and my own understanding functions quite well when i listen to myself, and at first that took sitting still and sifting through all the other "counselors" that had programmed stuff into my head and by force habituated me to listening to them instead of me, but after awhile of practicing this i have found that i am beginning to recognize my own voice and i'm not second guessing it so much these days.
I heard on a television show once one of the characters say, "You can't think every voice in your head is God." And while it was funny in that show it seems to hold some truth for me also.
It only stands to reason to me that with the abudance of puffed up people that act like they hear the voice of God while ruthlessly and sometimes subtly putting rivals down (STRIFE AND ENVY, not good....duh) not to mention that everyone who has predicted the Lord's return over the centuries has proved themselves to be false prophets, at least the thousands whose dates have already passed us by, that it is a fairly safe bet to assume that anyone who claims to hear God's voice is a liar.
At least the odds are clearly in favor of the sceptics IMO. And I am someone who thinks of himself as a Christian, so don't bother cutting lose at the atheists and the agnostics here. (That is if anyone is so inclined.)
I really don't believe in "dualism", other than we can and do impose as many approaches, views, perspectives as suit our needs at the time. "Balance" is a temporary condition achieved by constant motion, would be one way of viewing dualism.
oh i'm so glad you brought this up because in therapy i learned that "god's still, small voice" is none other than my own self, so it was absolutely shocking for me to comprehend that i am my own best counselor and my own understanding functions quite well when i listen to myself, and at first that took sitting still and sifting through all the other "counselors" that had programmed stuff into my head and by force habituated me to listening to them instead of me, but after awhile of practicing this i have found that i am beginning to recognize my own voice and i'm not second guessing it so much these days.
well said. when you get rid of the voices of the critical mother, the demanding twi leadership, the narcissistic ex-husbands and the unforgiving, selfish "friends" then you can finally hear yourself think.
I don't know that there is anything about human behavior/thought that hasn't been explained by evolution and genetics, directly or indirectly. In that way it appears that an individual's control of their mind and life is an illusion.
Welcome to the matrix.
The fact that something can be explained has zero bearing on the truth of the explanation, the methods used to formulate the explanation, or its inherent value. There are aspects of the mind and of life that are under an individual's control by choice, while there are other aspects that will never be.
By virtue of the language we are using to discuss the "authentic" you as opposed to one that is not authentic directly limits what we are discussing to those aspects of the mind and life that are under individual control. If your personal choice is that control over any aspect of these is an illusion, then that's all it is - your personal choice.
You can't choose that for me.
The matrix was a very entertaining movie, a mental model, and possibly a mind picture compelling enough to be used in examples of comparison like a figure of speech. Yet Neo learned to bend physical laws to his advantage within the matrix.
well said. when you get rid of the voices of the critical mother, the demanding twi leadership, the narcissistic ex-husbands and the unforgiving, selfish "friends" then you can finally hear yourself think.
i just woke up from a dream about one of my old "friends" where she had walked into a community room in my complex and started barking orders at me as if i were beneath her, so i turned around and got right up next to her and told her to never speak to me in that manner again or i would beat the living hell out of her and tell the other women in my complex that she was playing with their men so they would beat the living hell out of her, and i had her literally cornered while i was so up close and making it very personal. as soon as i let her out of the corner she ran screaming to management "help me! she's going to kill me!" and tried to get me arrested, but i knew she was going to do that so i acted all pure and innocent when the police arrived and they ended up taking her to the hospital for a few days to adjust her medications.
my "authentic self"? i tell you that i "authentically" wouldn't put up with her "friendship" nowadays, and i "authentically" wouldn't try to justify myself these days either. but i don't go around beating up people or cornering them or anything like that either, so i just stay away from poison people as much as possible, so in "real" life (or am i dreaming now?) i'd probably just ignore her like she hadn't said anything.
i didn't used to be able to make such premeditated choices about what i would do "if", but after learning how to listen to myself i also learned that being violent was not who i wanted to be at all but thought it was who i had to be because i was never shown any options when growing up so i didn't know any better choice. now i know me better and now i know i am not a violent type even if i have violent type dreams, but i do have powerful emotional reactions, but being human i can choose how i handle those emotional reactions, and i do as best as i can and in "real" life i no longer have inclinations towards violence. so if this all made sense i'm glad, but i'm going back to bed now, so good night.
I don't know that there is anything about human behavior/thought that hasn't been explained by evolution and genetics, directly or indirectly. In that way it appears that an individual's control of their mind and life is an illusion.
Welcome to the matrix.
It is interesting that you bring evolution up here. I read an article yesterday that relates to some of the ground finches that Darwin observed on the Galapagos. Scientists have observed the process of genetic mutation that is producing changes in the beaks of the birds to respond to changes available food sources (less nuts, more seeds) due to climatic changes.
The fact that something can be explained has zero bearing on the truth of the explanation, the methods used to formulate the explanation, or its inherent value. There are aspects of the mind and of life that are under an individual's control by choice, while there are other aspects that will never be.
By virtue of the language we are using to discuss the "authentic" you as opposed to one that is not authentic directly limits what we are discussing to those aspects of the mind and life that are under individual control. If your personal choice is that control over any aspect of these is an illusion, then that's all it is - your personal choice.
You can't choose that for me.
The matrix was a very entertaining movie, a mental model, and possibly a mind picture compelling enough to be used in examples of comparison like a figure of speech. Yet Neo learned to bend physical laws to his advantage within the matrix.
It is interesting that you bring evolution up here. I read an article yesterday that relates to some of the ground finches that Darwin observed on the Galapagos. Scientists have observed the process of genetic mutation that is producing changes in the beaks of the birds to respond to changes available food sources (less nuts, more seeds) due to climatic changes.
Environment has a role to play also.
yes it does. environment gave the first life form yes? so genetics is a result of the environment.
Dualism is the school of thought that holds to the belief that two fundamental kinds or categories of things. Monism on the other hand holds the idea that there is only one thing. In theology, a dualist believes that there is both Good and Evil...God or the Devil in the world. One could argue that Judism, Christianity and Islam are dualistic religions. On the other hand, Buddhism is clearly a monist religion because it makes the claim that all is one.
Dualism is the school of thought that holds to the belief that two fundamental kinds or categories of things. Monism on the other hand holds the idea that there is only one thing. In theology, a dualist believes that there is both Good and Evil...God or the Devil in the world. One could argue that Judism, Christianity and Islam are dualistic religions. On the other hand, Buddhism is clearly a monist religion because it makes the claim that all is one.
I was thinking more along this line,
In philosophy of mind; Dualism (philosophy of mind)
In philosophy of mind, dualism is any of a narrow variety of views about the relationship between mind and matter, which claims that mind and matter are two ontologically separate categories. In particular, mind-body dualism claims that neither the mind nor matter can be reduced to each other in any way, and thus is opposed to materialism in general, and reductive materialism in particular. Mind-body dualism can exist as substance dualism which claims that the mind and the body are composed of a distinct substance, and as property dualism which claims that there may not be a distinction in substance, but that mental and physical properties are still categorically distinct, and not reducible to each other. This type of dualism is sometimes referred to as "mind and body" and stands in contrast to philosophical monism, which views mind and matter as being ultimately the same kind of thing. See also Cartesian dualism, substance dualism, epiphenomenalism.
there are numerous examples of Lamarckian-like studies (not that they are Lamarckian). There are genes in every critter that never get expressed. some might call it "throw-back" genes. others might see it as designed variation.
a species can change quite rapidly, and it might not take many generations.
I don't view genetics as "have this gene, behave this way everytime". They do instruct development of the brain, therefore the mind, therefore it's possibilities.
and genetic twins have the same genes, but they are expressed slightly differently. even if they did, it would be impossible to raise them exactly the same way. even if you could, decisions they make can be seen in terms of possibility and probability, so it's like predicting the weather. flip a coin and tell me if it will be heads or tails. Now predict the result of a roll of 10,000 10,000-sided dice.
that our minds are more then just eddies in the space dust I've yet to see.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
15
19
33
17
Popular Days
May 13
25
May 15
20
May 11
14
May 20
12
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 15 posts
socks 19 posts
Bolshevik 33 posts
brainfixed 17 posts
Popular Days
May 13 2009
25 posts
May 15 2009
20 posts
May 11 2009
14 posts
May 20 2009
12 posts
Popular Posts
Tzaia
I didn't (and still don't) think that any organization is perfect. TWI had this thing for doublespeak. It talked about legalism and not being that way, but it was very legalistic. It talked about ho
Tzaia
Yes, we all had to make choices. My husband was sending a $75 check every week to HQ in 1980, and I was having to scrape to put shoes and clothes on the kids, food on the table, and I didn't have a ca
Tzaia
I think one has to avoid confusing the comfort of familiarity with being real (authentic).
socks
Pleased, I'm sure. :)
"it is difficult to change things effectively at the genetic level,"
There ya go. It is difficult, particularly if that process is going to mean a change in who we "are", as opposed to how we look, or act.
Chickens, it's definitely not a good time to be a chicken, that's for sure. ("Hey, do these feathers make me look fat, be honest...")
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
just when i was wondering how i was going to stay on the topic of discussion you came along and said "There ya go. It is difficult, particularly if that process is going to mean a change in who we "are", as opposed to how we look, or act". here the question for me is how much of my "authentic self" is genetic, and if it's even a little more than "not enough" then i have to ask how much "genetic memory" shapes what i feel is my "authentic self", but science has yet to recognize "genetic memory" as a viable premise, so what do i do now? :)
i am genetically and environmentally predisposed to have a middle level intelligence, lots of anger, multiple addictions and a whole lot of what seems to often end up being impoverished and physically and mentally ill and just barely getting along in life, but until i worked very hard at changing these seeming unavoidable "results" in my life, that's where my life was at. and there's something that i think has everything to do with "(re)(un)covering the "authentic" you" because choice is at the base of even feeling like i have an "authentic self". so now i'm thinking that maybe when i talk about the way stealing my soul that maybe i am talking about the way limiting my choices? i don't know, but it seems to be coming around to this very point.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I don't see why you'd say that. thoughts are kinda dependent on a functioning physical brain. no physical brain, no thoughts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
ok you don't see why i'd say that, and i'm tired of trying to explain because i obviously am not explaining it good enough and what does it all matter in the end anyway, and does it really have anything to do with the discussion any longer? so all that being said i think i'm going to contemplate these "choice" thoughts (haha) i've had and see if i can say anything else relating to the original discussion here. whewie it's been a funny ride discussing this. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Is this what's called a dualistic approach?
machines can be programmed to see options and make a decision based on those. of course we're a bit more complicated.
. . . . . . .
anyway, this "authentic you" stuff is reminiscent of "god's still, small voice" propaganda. Sit still and listen, can ya hear it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
oh i'm so glad you brought this up because in therapy i learned that "god's still, small voice" is none other than my own self, so it was absolutely shocking for me to comprehend that i am my own best counselor and my own understanding functions quite well when i listen to myself, and at first that took sitting still and sifting through all the other "counselors" that had programmed stuff into my head and by force habituated me to listening to them instead of me, but after awhile of practicing this i have found that i am beginning to recognize my own voice and i'm not second guessing it so much these days.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JeffSjo
That sounds good to me brainfixed. -_-
I heard on a television show once one of the characters say, "You can't think every voice in your head is God." And while it was funny in that show it seems to hold some truth for me also.
It only stands to reason to me that with the abudance of puffed up people that act like they hear the voice of God while ruthlessly and sometimes subtly putting rivals down (STRIFE AND ENVY, not good....duh) not to mention that everyone who has predicted the Lord's return over the centuries has proved themselves to be false prophets, at least the thousands whose dates have already passed us by, that it is a fairly safe bet to assume that anyone who claims to hear God's voice is a liar.
At least the odds are clearly in favor of the sceptics IMO. And I am someone who thinks of himself as a Christian, so don't bother cutting lose at the atheists and the agnostics here. (That is if anyone is so inclined.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
I really don't believe in "dualism", other than we can and do impose as many approaches, views, perspectives as suit our needs at the time. "Balance" is a temporary condition achieved by constant motion, would be one way of viewing dualism.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
well said. when you get rid of the voices of the critical mother, the demanding twi leadership, the narcissistic ex-husbands and the unforgiving, selfish "friends" then you can finally hear yourself think.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
The fact that something can be explained has zero bearing on the truth of the explanation, the methods used to formulate the explanation, or its inherent value. There are aspects of the mind and of life that are under an individual's control by choice, while there are other aspects that will never be.
By virtue of the language we are using to discuss the "authentic" you as opposed to one that is not authentic directly limits what we are discussing to those aspects of the mind and life that are under individual control. If your personal choice is that control over any aspect of these is an illusion, then that's all it is - your personal choice.
You can't choose that for me.
The matrix was a very entertaining movie, a mental model, and possibly a mind picture compelling enough to be used in examples of comparison like a figure of speech. Yet Neo learned to bend physical laws to his advantage within the matrix.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
i just woke up from a dream about one of my old "friends" where she had walked into a community room in my complex and started barking orders at me as if i were beneath her, so i turned around and got right up next to her and told her to never speak to me in that manner again or i would beat the living hell out of her and tell the other women in my complex that she was playing with their men so they would beat the living hell out of her, and i had her literally cornered while i was so up close and making it very personal. as soon as i let her out of the corner she ran screaming to management "help me! she's going to kill me!" and tried to get me arrested, but i knew she was going to do that so i acted all pure and innocent when the police arrived and they ended up taking her to the hospital for a few days to adjust her medications.
my "authentic self"? i tell you that i "authentically" wouldn't put up with her "friendship" nowadays, and i "authentically" wouldn't try to justify myself these days either. but i don't go around beating up people or cornering them or anything like that either, so i just stay away from poison people as much as possible, so in "real" life (or am i dreaming now?) i'd probably just ignore her like she hadn't said anything.
i didn't used to be able to make such premeditated choices about what i would do "if", but after learning how to listen to myself i also learned that being violent was not who i wanted to be at all but thought it was who i had to be because i was never shown any options when growing up so i didn't know any better choice. now i know me better and now i know i am not a violent type even if i have violent type dreams, but i do have powerful emotional reactions, but being human i can choose how i handle those emotional reactions, and i do as best as i can and in "real" life i no longer have inclinations towards violence. so if this all made sense i'm glad, but i'm going back to bed now, so good night.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oenophile
It is interesting that you bring evolution up here. I read an article yesterday that relates to some of the ground finches that Darwin observed on the Galapagos. Scientists have observed the process of genetic mutation that is producing changes in the beaks of the birds to respond to changes available food sources (less nuts, more seeds) due to climatic changes.
Environment has a role to play also.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i haven't carefully read all this, but brainfixed, your fixed brain makes so much sense to me
love,ex
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Control is an illusion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
yes it does. environment gave the first life form yes? so genetics is a result of the environment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Chaos and fate are illusions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oenophile
Dualism is the school of thought that holds to the belief that two fundamental kinds or categories of things. Monism on the other hand holds the idea that there is only one thing. In theology, a dualist believes that there is both Good and Evil...God or the Devil in the world. One could argue that Judism, Christianity and Islam are dualistic religions. On the other hand, Buddhism is clearly a monist religion because it makes the claim that all is one.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
touche
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
I was thinking more along this line,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism
maybe I was confusing it with another concept.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
The finches aren't changing GENETICALLY, they're changing SEASONALLY.
When the seeds they feed on are harder, their beaks get harder.
(I'm simplifying it. Plus, I wasn't that interested when I was reading.)
So, the beaks change from YEAR TO YEAR, not GENERATION TO GENERATION.
SELF control and discipline are not illusions.
They can be taught, they can be learned, and they bear no resemblance
to the "thought control" taught in twi.
Some people seem to have great aptitude for it without need to learn it.
Others can learn with practice or the right teacher.
The whole field of thinking itself, and how it affects the person, is called
"cognitive psychology". Quite a lot can be affected by changing biology
(chemicals treating disorders or CAUSING problems) but it can hardly
ALL be accounted for by way of biology or Stimulus-response and
conditioning. You can take identical twins, raise them together, and still
have considerable differences in their personalities. If all of life was
environment+heredity, they'd be completely identical in every way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oenophile
Perhaps I was not clear enough. The article stated that the changes in the beaks was observable in the hatchlings after several years climate change.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I read something different- where the SAME birds' beaks were varying year to year,
depending on rainfall- thus depending on the seeds.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
there are numerous examples of Lamarckian-like studies (not that they are Lamarckian). There are genes in every critter that never get expressed. some might call it "throw-back" genes. others might see it as designed variation.
a species can change quite rapidly, and it might not take many generations.
I don't view genetics as "have this gene, behave this way everytime". They do instruct development of the brain, therefore the mind, therefore it's possibilities.
and genetic twins have the same genes, but they are expressed slightly differently. even if they did, it would be impossible to raise them exactly the same way. even if you could, decisions they make can be seen in terms of possibility and probability, so it's like predicting the weather. flip a coin and tell me if it will be heads or tails. Now predict the result of a roll of 10,000 10,000-sided dice.
that our minds are more then just eddies in the space dust I've yet to see.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
TWI's version of dualism: "If you don't mind, it doesn't matter".
Now that sounds like a Trekkie version of the old Kansas song "Dust In the Wind".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.