me-->at a loss for words. thanks. i needed that turn into a more colorful world, or maybe not but it stemmed the flood somewhat and made me chuckle a little bit. :unsure:
When I was in the Way and all of the years I worked there for them and with the people I knew, I was pretty much the same. My personal introduction to the bible was through many of the people who, with me, later joined up with the Way, PFAL, and all of that. I'll die with a stake in my heart before I sell those people and the years of loving life we shared, short. That ain't gonna happen.
I was in the program because I was asked to go into it and I wanted to be there so I went, and stayed. Over the years - then as now - I did things at the direction of others but I never did anything I felt was wrong or harmful because I was forced to.
Socks,
Like you, I also knew good, loving and decent people while in the Way. Yet, these good people were only a part of my total Way experience. I also encountered people who were their antithesis. Yet, as with the good people, they were only a part of my total Way experience. I suppose that my questions to you are, were the good people and the good things you learned representative of your total Way experience and, if so, will you allow that some, indeed most, had a different experience than you?
Perhaps soup offers the appropriate metaphor to emphasize my point. Let's say there are things that I really like in the soup such as corn, carrots, potatoes and peas. However, there is one thing in the soup that has a flavor and aroma so repugnant and pervasive, say limberger for instance, that it spoils my enjoyment of the corn, carrots and potatoes and peas. For me and for most here I suspect the intimidation, the intense pressure to conform, the wedges driven between us and our families, the mickey mouse rules, the "let it be all Way all the time" expectations placed on us, the believer - unbeliever dichotomy together make a really ripe limberger.
*I chose limberger because I couldn't think of much that I don't like that is usually found in soup. Feel free make your own rancid substitution.
If people have an "authentic self", do plants and animals?
If you take a seed and plant it in various environments it will grow differently, depending on the conditions. Rip some branches off, more will grow. Does it have something to be true to?
Dogs are bred to behave the way people like them to be. Are we denying dogs to be their own dog?
All children are conditioned from childhood. Can't think of any that aren't.
We all continue to be "brainwashed" by media, advertising, culture and environment. We were taught to like certain food, dress a certain way, have a certain accent, speak a certain language(s). I've even been told that the people we choose to be friends with/marry/date are because of our conditioning.
I think we are most comfortable when we align with our conditioning, or the strongest forms when two or more forms conflict. Perhaps an "authentic self" is our original, or strongest, conditioned behaviors/thought patterns.
If people have an "authentic self", do plants and animals?
If you take a seed and plant it in various environments it will grow differently, depending on the conditions. Rip some branches off, more will grow. Does it have something to be true to?
Dogs are bred to behave the way people like them to be. Are we denying dogs to be their own dog?
All children are conditioned from childhood. Can't think of any that aren't.
We all continue to be "brainwashed" by media, advertising, culture and environment. We were taught to like certain food, dress a certain way, have a certain accent, speak a certain language(s). I've even been told that the people we choose to be friends with/marry/date are because of our conditioning.
I think we are most comfortable when we align with our conditioning, or the strongest forms when two or more forms conflict. Perhaps an "authentic self" is our original, or strongest, conditioned behaviors/thought patterns.
plants, amimals, fish, the walls, do any of these things "feel" or "think" like us humans do? and if they do, how do we know they do? and since a couple of you touched on hard science and science fiction i'm going to a little bit myself and say that for as much as anybody knows we are all made of the same stuff and the only really differences between anything matter or antimatter is the activity in the smallest of the smallest particles and quarks and what else may be inside of there, so techically all things and antithings think and feel and perceive and everything we always thought was reserved for us humans. so either the whole question is moot or it is the answer to everything, i think, but who am i? haha. :)
and i'm not one to buy into "brainwashing" and "mind control" as a blanket reason for everything, but i did explain in the topic i started that i see these things as behavior modification, and i also explained that i see behavior modification as something that is not good or bad but just is and is the way the world of people funtion with one another, so i don't see that you and i disagree but maybe have a different way of understanding the discussion. and i'm not sure this is making sense to anybody but me.
I've always allowed for that, since Day 2, Oeno. That's assumed. And it forms the basis for my post.
GS gets a lot of "agree to disagree" going on. That's practical. But I don't think it answers the "real" questions and the topic of this thread actually addresses them IMO. :)
:blink:
I only speak for myself. That's all I do. There are others that I would offer an educated opinion on and be very close based on what I know. But other than that, it's me O Lord. So when you say "rose colored" myopia, there's only one way to apply that - to me. I don't know about the rest of you weirdos.
My observations on the rest of this stuff lead me to certain conclusions, and I'm pret-ty sure I'm correct. But where the rubber meets the road is in how each person is able to work it all out for themselves and more forward. So it doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong or if anyone else agrees or disagrees - agreement isn't the issue, understanding and application is.
I'm not offering my own conclusions here, there's no whole enchilada for everyone on GS or the world of ex-Wayfer weirdness forthcoming from me. I fully believe that the same conclusions will however reveal and render themselves in each person and it has nothing to do with what specifically "happened" to each person and their own experience.
If people have an "authentic self", do plants and animals?
SNIP
Dogs are bred to behave the way people like them to be. Are we denying dogs to be their own dog?
You might just be on to something here.
I do think dogs, as well other animals, have an "authentic self" and a "conditioned self" (ie: identity)
Domestic cats, for example, have a "true self" that is born with the desire to stalk and kill prey. It's born into them.
Ironically, though, they don't quite understand this behavior to be linked to survival. That's where conditioning comes into play. The mother cat not only helps the young ones to hone their skills, she teaches them that their quarry is a source of food and necessary for survival. If those lessons are missed, the cat will grow up to be one that hunts and kills but doesn't quite understand it's supposed to consume its bounty. There are oodles of similar examples in the animal kingdom. I suppose they are most obvious in domesticated breeds. The recent tragedy involving a chimpanzee attack underscores this premise. As much as the owner tried to modify his behavior into one that suited her liking, the chimp eventually reverted to his "true self". Now, of course, it's a good deal more complex with humans because, not only can we think and reason, there are so many more varied and widely diverse examples of humans than there are of chimpanzees, or tabby cats, or snow leopards. So, yes, in a sense, you might say we are denying dogs the opportunity to be their true selves.
About the Way, No one but myself made me do anything. I gave freely of my time & energy. I believe the reason I stayed around so long when others did not (took the class and left) is because it was a family, for good or bad. When you first went to fellowship wasn't everyone great and you too? As time went on you couldn't do anything right. Right. The farther up you were in leadership the more hypocracy you saw and also became because you didn't leave then. Well where was I to go? By this time you had witnessed and if successful recruited your family and friends. What was a person to do, leave all that behind. Until finally I could not live with myself anymore if I stayed. So I left and I still miss my friends and somewhere to go every single night and twice on Sunday. And its been 20 years.
About the Way, No one but myself made me do anything. I gave freely of my time & energy. I believe the reason I stayed around so long when others did not (took the class and left) is because it was a family, for good or bad. When you first went to fellowship wasn't everyone great and you too? As time went on you couldn't do anything right. Right. The farther up you were in leadership the more hypocracy you saw and also became because you didn't leave then. Well where was I to go? By this time you had witnessed and if successful recruited your family and friends. What was a person to do, leave all that behind. Until finally I could not live with myself anymore if I stayed. So I left and I still miss my friends and somewhere to go every single night and twice on Sunday. And its been 20 years.
Yup.
Hard to go back (to pre-TWI days) when you've burned all your bridges.
About the Way, No one but myself made me do anything. I gave freely of my time & energy. I believe the reason I stayed around so long when others did not (took the class and left) is because it was a family, for good or bad. When you first went to fellowship wasn't everyone great and you too? As time went on you couldn't do anything right. Right. The farther up you were in leadership the more hypocracy you saw and also became because you didn't leave then. Well where was I to go? By this time you had witnessed and if successful recruited your family and friends. What was a person to do, leave all that behind. Until finally I could not live with myself anymore if I stayed. So I left and I still miss my friends and somewhere to go every single night and twice on Sunday. And its been 20 years.
While I can completely relate to the feeling expressed here, what I differ with is sitting around missing friends and someplace to go. If these people are not currently your friends because you have chosen to go a different way in your ministry associations, were they ever REALLY your friends? There are plenty of great people out in our societies, and great Christians as well who mostly have never heard of TWI. Develop a hobby, go bowling, darts, shoot pool, do knitting clubs, photography, go back to school, meet new friends, start a supper club, start a babysitting exchange.
You know, all those things we used to involve ourselves with in the community under the guise of "moving the Word"? Well, now you can actually enjoy them for the richness of the people they expose you to as opposed to having some kind of ulterior motive or class or lame fellowship to sell them.
About the Way, No one but myself made me do anything. I gave freely of my time & energy. I believe the reason I stayed around so long when others did not (took the class and left) is because it was a family, for good or bad. When you first went to fellowship wasn't everyone great and you too? As time went on you couldn't do anything right. Right. The farther up you were in leadership the more hypocracy you saw and also became because you didn't leave then. Well where was I to go? By this time you had witnessed and if successful recruited your family and friends. What was a person to do, leave all that behind. Until finally I could not live with myself anymore if I stayed. So I left and I still miss my friends and somewhere to go every single night and twice on Sunday. And its been 20 years.
Welcome to Grease Spot, Okey Dokey!
I know exactly what you mean and I've had similar feelings…I agree – TWI never made me do anything…but doggone it, they perfected the art of manipulation, intimidation & deceit.
The mindset that loyal followers adopted was almost like an invisible rudder attached to the will, which would go with the flow of all things TWI. Convincing folks that all other options are dead ends is really not giving people a choice. I used to hear it many different ways when I was in – but the sentiment was always the same – the only other choice you have to "the Word" is oblivion. Please note my signature at bottom of post – TWI were masters at intellectual tyranny.
Does a scam artist make someone buy their bum stuff? Nope – sales by deceit.
Does a TWI leader make someone give of their resources? Nope – but they sure can intimidate you by saying God won't even spit in your direction if you don't.
Can TWI make someone stay with the organization? Nope – but through subtleties of manipulation – they can pull on the ol' heart strings ya know – "You're going to walk out on God & His Family?! How could you let down God & your fellow believers! After all this ministry has done for you. Where else are you going to find the rightly divided Word?"
My wife & I sure do miss the many good folks we've met while it it. We left in 86…good news is – we've re-connected with a few and made some new friends here at Grease Spot as well!
Life is good…freedom is great...please stick around - it only gets better from this point on,
OK, Socksness, see what you went and did. By participating in this thread, you made the following ad appear at the bottom of the page: "Womens Support Socks." That phrase leaves a lot to be desired, grammatically speaking, but yeah, I'd say we womens support Socks...or we at least like him a lot.
Back on topic:
Oeno, I know you already apologized to Socks for the tone of the following post, but because I find myself nodding in agreement with pretty much everything he said, I want to respond to what you said, without reacting to the tone of it.
To anyone who thinks that TWI didn't manipulate people to be their lackies, please remember denial is not a river in Egypt.
IMO, to accuse anyone who expresses that they had any kind of positive experience in twi of being in denial is very similar to demanding proof of anyone who describes a negative experience in twi. We experienced what we experienced, saw what we saw, learned what we learned, put up with what we put up with, ad infinitum. So unless someone is slobbering all over a VPW statuette (I still can't believe they made those things!) and refusing to recognize that anything bad ever happened in twi, I don't think denial is a fair assessment of someone else's views.
Do you not remember the group pressure to take the next class, go to the big area function, skip studying for the big exam you had the next day to go to the branch meeting?
Yes, I do, but I didn't care. I took classes if and when I wanted to take them, and for the most part I wanted to because I enjoyed them (with the exception of repeating them). I went to functions when I wanted to go and when I didn't, I didn't. I usually wanted to go to fellowships, but when I didn't want to go, I didn't go.
So why did I react the way I did to twi's pressures and demands, and why did others react differently? I think maybe it's largely because of who we were going in. I think those of us who got into twi on our own (as opposed to being raised in it...that might be a whole 'nother story) were pretty much who we were going to be by the time we got there, and we responded accordingly.
Do you not remember the pressure that you felt under at the ROA to put your life on hold and go WOW which means, by the way, you don't get to see your family during the holidays, go to your mom's graduation when she received her Master's degree with cum laude honors or go to your brothers wedding?
I saw all the "rah, rah, go WOW hooplah," but I didn't feel pressured by it. I figured it was my life and I knew what was best for my child and me. I never went WOW until my interim year in the Corps, but that was different. I knew going in I'd be assigned somewhere that year, so for me it wasn't a matter of pressure but part of a commitment I'd made and wanted to keep.
Do you not remember the cold looks (or perhaps that hot encounter you had with some pea brained leader) you got if you decided that the "next thing" wasn't right for you?
This is another factor in the whole "comparing twi experiences" thing. A lot depended on who your "leaders" were. For the most part, when I was your basic twig goer and twig leader (ahem, coordinator), I had loving, wonderful people as leadership. There were a couple of pea brains mixed in there, but I didn't give them much thought except to mentally note that they were immature or arrogant or whatever. I have to say, though, I encountered people like that throughout my life, everywhere I went, so I wasn't too surprised to run into them in twi.
Since this thread is about soul, don't you remember being taught that is not your own anyway? Don't you know you were bought with a price and now you owe it to Der Vey because Der Vey taught you Der Wort. (Actually, now I have come to like wort since I started homebrewing.) Give me an effin break! You look back with rose colored glasses if you want, I like calling a spade a spade and a cult a cult.
Funny how different our perspectives are. To me "you are not your own, you are bought with a price," didn't say to me I couldn't be my own self. It simply meant to me, as a Christian, my proper response to the sacrifice God made for me was to take care of myself, to value myself, and to value others, as well. I still feel that way today.
As for looking back with "rose-colored glasses," I don't. I do remember the good times as good and the bad times as bad, just as I view any period in my life. I will not discard everything I learned or experienced in twi just because others feel that none of it was of value, any more than I will ignore the horrible things that happened to some people in twi just because others would like to pretend they never happened.
I've always allowed for that, since Day 2, Oeno. That's assumed. And it forms the basis for my post.
GS gets a lot of "agree to disagree" going on. That's practical. But I don't think it answers the "real" questions and the topic of this thread actually addresses them IMO. :)
:blink:
What are the "real questions" of this thread in your opinion?
I only speak for myself. That's all I do. There are others that I would offer an educated opinion on and be very close based on what I know. But other than that, it's me O Lord. So when you say "rose colored" myopia, there's only one way to apply that - to me. I don't know about the rest of you weirdos.
I am not sure what you are alluding to here. Please note that I apologized for the "rose colored glasses" and shrill intonation of my earlier post publicly. I don't do grovel. By the way, thank you if you are including me in the wierdos. I take pride in being a wierdo. After all, wierdo mutants are the leading edge of evolution in every species.
My observations on the rest of this stuff lead me to certain conclusions, and I'm pret-ty sure I'm correct. Correct about what?No doubts at all? But where the rubber meets the road is in how each person is able to work it all out for themselves and more forward. So it doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong or if anyone else agrees or disagrees - agreement isn't the issue, understanding and application is. True that.
I'm not offering my own conclusions here, there's no whole enchilada for everyone on GS or the world of ex-Wayfer weirdness forthcoming from me. I fully believe that the same conclusions will however reveal and render themselves in each person and it has nothing to do with what specifically "happened" to each person and their own experience. Which conclusions are you talking about?
OK, Socksness, see what you went and did. By participating in this thread, you made the following ad appear at the bottom of the page: "Womens Support Socks." That phrase leaves a lot to be desired, grammatically speaking, but yeah, I'd say we womens support Socks...or we at least like him a lot.
Back on topic:
Oeno, I know you already apologized to Socks for the tone of the following post, but because I find myself nodding in agreement with pretty much everything he said, I want to respond to what you said, without reacting to the tone of it.
QUOTE (oenophile @ May 12 2009, 11:02 PM) To anyone who thinks that TWI didn't manipulate people to be their lackies, please remember denial is not a river in Egypt.
IMO, to accuse anyone who expresses that they had any kind of positive experience in twi of being in denial is very similar to demanding proof of anyone who describes a negative experience in twi. We experienced what we experienced, saw what we saw, learned what we learned, put up with what we put up with, ad infinitum. So unless someone is slobbering all over a VPW statuette (I still can't believe they made those things!) and refusing to recognize that anything bad ever happened in twi, I don't think denial is a fair assessment of someone else's views.
Manipulation exists everywhere. Flip on the tube and someone is manipulating you to buy this or that. However, the manipulation that happened in TWI flowed from the notion that it implanted in its adherents that it was the only place that one could expect to be in true fellowship with God. Inside you had divine protection, outside as someone mentioned earlier...oblivion. I do not think I need to cite examples. Instead, I will refer anyone interested to the My Story forum here where one can read oneself. I will stand by my statement if anyone doesn't think that happened in TWI, then that person is in woeful denial.
Do you not remember the group pressure to take the next class, go to the big area function, skip studying for the big exam you had the next day to go to the branch meeting?
Yes, I do, but I didn't care. I took classes if and when I wanted to take them, and for the most part I wanted to because I enjoyed them (with the exception of repeating them). I went to functions when I wanted to go and when I didn't, I didn't. I usually wanted to go to fellowships, but when I didn't want to go, I didn't go.
Linda, I consider you a dear friend even though we have never met face to face. Hopefully, soon we will. I respect you for your smarts and, at least from my perspective, your strong independent streak. I would suspect someone like yourself wouldn't feel the pressure and the gnawing guilt that a lot of us "weaker vessels" felt.
So why did I react the way I did to twi's pressures and demands, and why did others react differently? I think maybe it's largely because of who we were going in. I think those of us who got into twi on our own (as opposed to being raised in it...that might be a whole 'nother story) were pretty much who we were going to be by the time we got there, and we responded accordingly. Exactly.
Do you not remember the pressure that you felt under at the ROA to put your life on hold and go WOW which means, by the way, you don't get to see your family during the holidays, go to your mom's graduation when she received her Master's degree with cum laude honors or go to your brothers wedding?
I saw all the "rah, rah, go WOW hooplah," but I didn't feel pressured by it. I figured it was my life and I knew what was best for my child and me. I never went WOW until my interim year in the Corps, but that was different. I knew going in I'd be assigned somewhere that year, so for me it wasn't a matter of pressure but part of a commitment I'd made and wanted to keep.
I went WOW when I thought it was right for me and I made the decision privately and alone without the needling . No real regrets there. However, there were other times that I was told that I made a gross spiritual error by not participating in this or that.
Do you not remember the cold looks (or perhaps that hot encounter you had with some pea brained leader) you got if you decided that the "next thing" wasn't right for you?
This is another factor in the whole "comparing twi experiences" thing. A lot depended on who your "leaders" were. For the most part, when I was your basic twig goer and twig leader (ahem, coordinator), I had loving, wonderful people as leadership. There were a couple of pea brains mixed in there, but I didn't give them much thought except to mentally note that they were immature or arrogant or whatever. I have to say, though, I encountered people like that throughout my life, everywhere I went, so I wasn't too surprised to run into them in twi.
So, the expression "tripped out" has no meaning to you. Please forgive my indulging in a rhetorical question like that but it goes to highlight the validation subtlties that existed to enforce conformity.
Since this thread is about soul, don't you remember being taught that is not your own anyway? Don't you know you were bought with a price and now you owe it to Der Vey because Der Vey taught you Der Wort. (Actually, now I have come to like wort since I started homebrewing.) Give me an effin break! You look back with rose colored glasses if you want, I like calling a spade a spade and a cult a cult.
Funny how different our perspectives are. To me "you are not your own, you are bought with a price," didn't say to me I couldn't be my own self. It simply meant to me, as a Christian, my proper response to the sacrifice God made for me was to take care of myself, to value myself, and to value others, as well. I still feel that way today.
As for looking back with "rose-colored glasses," I don't. I do remember the good times as good and the bad times as bad, just as I view any period in my life. I will not discard everything I learned or experienced in twi just because others feel that none of it was of value, any more than I will ignore the horrible things that happened to some people in twi just because others would like to pretend they never happened.
I agree. I think you clearly see your experiences for what they were. By the way, I believe that this finally your year to celebrate with LeBron and the Cavs.
I do think dogs, as well other animals, have an "authentic self" and a "conditioned self" (ie: identity)
Domestic cats, for example, have a "true self" that is born with the desire to stalk and kill prey. It's born into them.
Ironically, though, they don't quite understand this behavior to be linked to survival. That's where conditioning comes into play. The mother cat not only helps the young ones to hone their skills, she teaches them that their quarry is a source of food and necessary for survival. If those lessons are missed, the cat will grow up to be one that hunts and kills but doesn't quite understand it's supposed to consume its bounty. There are oodles of similar examples in the animal kingdom. I suppose they are most obvious in domesticated breeds. The recent tragedy involving a chimpanzee attack underscores this premise. As much as the owner tried to modify his behavior into one that suited her liking, the chimp eventually reverted to his "true self". Now, of course, it's a good deal more complex with humans because, not only can we think and reason, there are so many more varied and widely diverse examples of humans than there are of chimpanzees, or tabby cats, or snow leopards. So, yes, in a sense, you might say we are denying dogs the opportunity to be their true selves.
Actually, with animals in domestication, probably the biggest determinant is SELECTIVE BREEDING.
It was demonstrated that 20 generations of an animal are all it can take in order to go from a "wild"
animal to a "docile" animal. This was done with a species of fox that was being farmed for its fur.
The farm staff only selected for breeding the members of each generation that were a bit more
"calm" than the others of the same generation. They did this for 20 generations, and the fur farm's
animals are now behaving completely differently than the ones 20 generations ago.
One can argue trying the same with humans. However, with humans, environment, experience,
acculturation and cognition (what the person actually THINKS) makes more of a difference than
i had the "liesure" to watch oprah yesterday and it was about women who had killed their abusers, and the part i had time for was one women who killed her husband when he was going after her and i didn't see enough of that to know if she was sentenced or anything, and one women that killed her father in cold blood and was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole but after 18+ years her sentence was commuted and she is out now. this last woman i saw said over and over again that she did not go into her father's house to kill him, but she went into her father's house to "put an end to it now", and she talked about over and over again how her father was two people in her mind, one being "daddy" who loved her and took care of her and protected her, and one was "tom" who abused her, and how she still sees him like this when she thinks about the abuse.
i think that it must be like that for some people that were in the way, because i read so much about how some people had an overall good experience even though they saw the abuses and knew that something was terribly wrong but couldn't put their finger on it exactly. and if anybody doesn't think this shoe fits them, ok fine, i'm not trying to force this shoe on anybody's foot but i'm trying to understand and make sense of things in my own head, so i'm not trying to make anybody think about their way experience any differently than they think about, but i'm just trying to figure out things in my own head, and it is hard for me to understand that there are people that felt they were in 100 percent active control of themselves and their choices in the way.
Actually, with animals in domestication, probably the biggest determinant is SELECTIVE BREEDING.
It was demonstrated that 20 generations of an animal are all it can take in order to go from a "wild"
animal to a "docile" animal. This was done with a species of fox that was being farmed for its fur.
The farm staff only selected for breeding the members of each generation that were a bit more
"calm" than the others of the same generation. They did this for 20 generations, and the fur farm's
animals are now behaving completely differently than the ones 20 generations ago.
One can argue trying the same with humans. However, with humans, environment, experience,
acculturation and cognition (what the person actually THINKS) makes more of a difference than
any attempt to selectively breed nicer people.
I think vpw tried, though. I wouldn't be surprised if he envisioned a stronger, more beautiful, absolutely docile to the MOG Way Corps in the future by absolutely controlling marriages within the Corps and how children were raised by Corps.
he probably also wanted to live long enough to see the fruit of his vision, based on things he's supposed to have said about death.
<snip>
it is hard for me to understand that there are people that felt they were in 100 percent active control of themselves and their choices in the way.
I also have a hard time believing it, but far away from the influence of HQ there were pockets of people who still had the right to think for themselves. I do believe that everyone one of them was on an elimination list, though, and that if they ever crossed the line of being a simple irritant and became a real threat, they were out the door, ABS be damned. so they retain the illusion that they thought for themselves.
it was much different where I was. anyone within 250 miles of HQ in the 90s was in the toxic zone.
i think that it must be like that for some people that were in the way, because i read so much about how some people had an overall good experience even though they saw the abuses and knew that something was terribly wrong but couldn't put their finger on it exactly.
I didn't (and still don't) think that any organization is perfect. TWI had this thing for doublespeak. It talked about legalism and not being that way, but it was very legalistic.
It talked about how bad private interpretation was, yet practiced it.
It talked about household and family, yet had no qualms about driving wedges in households and families.
It talked of people having "gifts," yet were highly selective in allowing people to use those gifts.
If one didn't get all wrapped up in the hoopla, then one could see this and respond accordingly. It is hard to go against the flow. It is even harder in a group with TWI's dynamic. But it could be done. It was hard to be authentic because authentic people have bad days. Negative was not tolerated, so if someone asked you how you were (the few who cared) it was nearly impossible to be honest about it if you were having a bad day.
The kicker was when you were having a bad day and then getting blamed for something that was so obviously out of your control. It took real strength of personal conviction to confront that kind of thinking. The first time that happened to me in a big way was the turning point for me. It ended up that these people were absolutely terrified to cross TWI because they couldn't imagine what was in store for them if they did, if TWI was actually providing them with a "hedge of protection" when the reality was that TWI's positions on certain things was placing them in harm's way. I remember one mother refusing to put her children in child restraints because to do so would interfere in the "hedge of protection," yet she didn't see the irony in monitoring their food, their social interactions, or not letting them play in the front yard which faced a busy street. When I pointed out the inconsistencies in her thinking, I think she did finally get it - maybe - I don't know. But I didn't keep my mouth shut.
i remember when it was decided that the abundant sharing didn't stay in the twigs anymore and my brother went off the deep end about it and had terrible arguements with my mom and my sister because they though my brother wasn't being "spiritual enough" to "get it". when i think back on those scenes i can't help but to think that surely it was like this all over the place and what did people have to tell themselves to make it ok in their minds that the way headquarters was taking all of the abundant sharing and not giving anything back? and i wondered what that meant to my mom's finances having to feed and house and clothe and school all of us kids when we were with her because there were many times that the branch leader took out of the horn of plenty to bring groceries and stuff to her house, so i couldn't figure out what my mom was thinking and why she didn't care anymore for her children than she did for the way? and how many other moms and dads were doing the same thing? and maybe it didn't take food off the table or clothes of the backs or roofs from over the heads of their children, but when i got old enough i wondered did it take away from college funds or even better birthday presents or family trips? i mean at some point everybody had to make such choices in the way, didn't they?
Oeno, Tzaias original post to start the thread addresses what I think is the core issue in the discussion.
"Each one of us has a unique, authentic self, and I believe that is a necessary element of Christianity even as it causes an element of divisiveness in the body. I also believe that the deeper one's involvement in TWI, the more likely the tendency to distance oneself from being authentic and the deeper one has to go to un(re)cover the authentic self. The irony is that either way, you can't fool God."
We've all come down different roads of entry and egress in regards to "The Way Inc." But I would say that the single consistent elements for everyone were those relating to Christianity - God and Jesus Christ, and the bible as an inspired source of teaching. I know some here don't feel that was a part of what they did or got or saw, that it was all a lie and BS and a sham. I don't feel that way - but it doesn't matter and really isn't even worth discussing (for me) except when I get like this and like to hear my own voice (o so exquisite, it!) quacking.
If Christianity is all about establishing a true relationship with God to the end that our present lives are enriched and fulfilled -
Then each one of us that are Christians will have a singlular and unique story to tell, the one we're living. It will absolutely include good and bad parts, successess and failures.
Just as you, if I said anything different I wouldn't be being hmmm, "authentic".
The weird reference was a joke, sorry. (make that extra dry barkeep!) :) Of all the weirdo's you're definitely high on the weird scale, possible 9. something. The crazies here, that's whole 'nother storee.
so i couldn't figure out what my mom was thinking and why she didn't care anymore for her children than she did for the way? and how many other moms and dads were doing the same thing? and maybe it didn't take food off the table or clothes of the backs or roofs from over the heads of their children, but when i got old enough i wondered did it take away from college funds or even better birthday presents or family trips? i mean at some point everybody had to make such choices in the way, didn't they?
Yes, we all had to make choices. My husband was sending a $75 check every week to HQ in 1980, and I was having to scrape to put shoes and clothes on the kids, food on the table, and I didn't have a car. We didn't have the money, but by golly we had 15% to fill the black void of TWI. Do I sound a little perturbed? I told him that he could give as much as he wanted providing that our family was not forced to do without. I was never in favor of providing VPW a chopper while we were eating chicken thighs, rice, and beans. We weren't putting $1000 into an auditorium we wouldn't be using when the kids needed shoes. The 15% stuff stopped. In the meantime, one of our kids became critically ill and I was diagnosed with cancer. That was because we weren't abundant sharing. I refuse to worship the Guido/God.
We tithe, but he never tells me we don't have the money.
I do think dogs, as well other animals, have an "authentic self" and a "conditioned self" (ie: identity)
Domestic cats, for example, have a "true self" that is born with the desire to stalk and kill prey. It's born into them.
Ironically, though, they don't quite understand this behavior to be linked to survival. That's where conditioning comes into play. The mother cat not only helps the young ones to hone their skills, she teaches them that their quarry is a source of food and necessary for survival. If those lessons are missed, the cat will grow up to be one that hunts and kills but doesn't quite understand it's supposed to consume its bounty. There are oodles of similar examples in the animal kingdom. I suppose they are most obvious in domesticated breeds. The recent tragedy involving a chimpanzee attack underscores this premise. As much as the owner tried to modify his behavior into one that suited her liking, the chimp eventually reverted to his "true self". Now, of course, it's a good deal more complex with humans because, not only can we think and reason, there are so many more varied and widely diverse examples of humans than there are of chimpanzees, or tabby cats, or snow leopards. So, yes, in a sense, you might say we are denying dogs the opportunity to be their true selves.
so do you equate genetically acquired behaviour/instinct/thinking patterns etc. as the "authentic self"?
Reminds me, at the end of the movie "The Hustler", George C. Scott is facing off with Paul Newman over getting his "share" of Fast Eddie's winnings and screams - "YOU - OWE - ME ... MONEY!!"
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
15
19
33
17
Popular Days
May 13
25
May 15
20
May 11
14
May 20
12
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 15 posts
socks 19 posts
Bolshevik 33 posts
brainfixed 17 posts
Popular Days
May 13 2009
25 posts
May 15 2009
20 posts
May 11 2009
14 posts
May 20 2009
12 posts
Popular Posts
Tzaia
I didn't (and still don't) think that any organization is perfect. TWI had this thing for doublespeak. It talked about legalism and not being that way, but it was very legalistic. It talked about ho
Tzaia
Yes, we all had to make choices. My husband was sending a $75 check every week to HQ in 1980, and I was having to scrape to put shoes and clothes on the kids, food on the table, and I didn't have a ca
Tzaia
I think one has to avoid confusing the comfort of familiarity with being real (authentic).
Ham
but where does one choose..
The problem is.. with the dissolution of deity.. we've got a whole army of committees to bargain with... I don't know which is worse..
Edited by HamLink to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
me-->at a loss for words. thanks. i needed that turn into a more colorful world, or maybe not but it stemmed the flood somewhat and made me chuckle a little bit. :unsure:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I'm glad you enjoyed it.. I think anyway..
at least it is certainly colourful..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oenophile
Socks,
Like you, I also knew good, loving and decent people while in the Way. Yet, these good people were only a part of my total Way experience. I also encountered people who were their antithesis. Yet, as with the good people, they were only a part of my total Way experience. I suppose that my questions to you are, were the good people and the good things you learned representative of your total Way experience and, if so, will you allow that some, indeed most, had a different experience than you?
Perhaps soup offers the appropriate metaphor to emphasize my point. Let's say there are things that I really like in the soup such as corn, carrots, potatoes and peas. However, there is one thing in the soup that has a flavor and aroma so repugnant and pervasive, say limberger for instance, that it spoils my enjoyment of the corn, carrots and potatoes and peas. For me and for most here I suspect the intimidation, the intense pressure to conform, the wedges driven between us and our families, the mickey mouse rules, the "let it be all Way all the time" expectations placed on us, the believer - unbeliever dichotomy together make a really ripe limberger.
*I chose limberger because I couldn't think of much that I don't like that is usually found in soup. Feel free make your own rancid substitution.
Peace.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
If people have an "authentic self", do plants and animals?
If you take a seed and plant it in various environments it will grow differently, depending on the conditions. Rip some branches off, more will grow. Does it have something to be true to?
Dogs are bred to behave the way people like them to be. Are we denying dogs to be their own dog?
All children are conditioned from childhood. Can't think of any that aren't.
We all continue to be "brainwashed" by media, advertising, culture and environment. We were taught to like certain food, dress a certain way, have a certain accent, speak a certain language(s). I've even been told that the people we choose to be friends with/marry/date are because of our conditioning.
I think we are most comfortable when we align with our conditioning, or the strongest forms when two or more forms conflict. Perhaps an "authentic self" is our original, or strongest, conditioned behaviors/thought patterns.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
plants, amimals, fish, the walls, do any of these things "feel" or "think" like us humans do? and if they do, how do we know they do? and since a couple of you touched on hard science and science fiction i'm going to a little bit myself and say that for as much as anybody knows we are all made of the same stuff and the only really differences between anything matter or antimatter is the activity in the smallest of the smallest particles and quarks and what else may be inside of there, so techically all things and antithings think and feel and perceive and everything we always thought was reserved for us humans. so either the whole question is moot or it is the answer to everything, i think, but who am i? haha. :)
and i'm not one to buy into "brainwashing" and "mind control" as a blanket reason for everything, but i did explain in the topic i started that i see these things as behavior modification, and i also explained that i see behavior modification as something that is not good or bad but just is and is the way the world of people funtion with one another, so i don't see that you and i disagree but maybe have a different way of understanding the discussion. and i'm not sure this is making sense to anybody but me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
I've always allowed for that, since Day 2, Oeno. That's assumed. And it forms the basis for my post.
GS gets a lot of "agree to disagree" going on. That's practical. But I don't think it answers the "real" questions and the topic of this thread actually addresses them IMO. :)
:blink:
I only speak for myself. That's all I do. There are others that I would offer an educated opinion on and be very close based on what I know. But other than that, it's me O Lord. So when you say "rose colored" myopia, there's only one way to apply that - to me. I don't know about the rest of you weirdos.
My observations on the rest of this stuff lead me to certain conclusions, and I'm pret-ty sure I'm correct. But where the rubber meets the road is in how each person is able to work it all out for themselves and more forward. So it doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong or if anyone else agrees or disagrees - agreement isn't the issue, understanding and application is.
I'm not offering my own conclusions here, there's no whole enchilada for everyone on GS or the world of ex-Wayfer weirdness forthcoming from me. I fully believe that the same conclusions will however reveal and render themselves in each person and it has nothing to do with what specifically "happened" to each person and their own experience.
Cheese, enchiladas - I'm hungry now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
You might just be on to something here.
I do think dogs, as well other animals, have an "authentic self" and a "conditioned self" (ie: identity)
Domestic cats, for example, have a "true self" that is born with the desire to stalk and kill prey. It's born into them.
Ironically, though, they don't quite understand this behavior to be linked to survival. That's where conditioning comes into play. The mother cat not only helps the young ones to hone their skills, she teaches them that their quarry is a source of food and necessary for survival. If those lessons are missed, the cat will grow up to be one that hunts and kills but doesn't quite understand it's supposed to consume its bounty. There are oodles of similar examples in the animal kingdom. I suppose they are most obvious in domesticated breeds. The recent tragedy involving a chimpanzee attack underscores this premise. As much as the owner tried to modify his behavior into one that suited her liking, the chimp eventually reverted to his "true self". Now, of course, it's a good deal more complex with humans because, not only can we think and reason, there are so many more varied and widely diverse examples of humans than there are of chimpanzees, or tabby cats, or snow leopards. So, yes, in a sense, you might say we are denying dogs the opportunity to be their true selves.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
okeydokey
About the Way, No one but myself made me do anything. I gave freely of my time & energy. I believe the reason I stayed around so long when others did not (took the class and left) is because it was a family, for good or bad. When you first went to fellowship wasn't everyone great and you too? As time went on you couldn't do anything right. Right. The farther up you were in leadership the more hypocracy you saw and also became because you didn't leave then. Well where was I to go? By this time you had witnessed and if successful recruited your family and friends. What was a person to do, leave all that behind. Until finally I could not live with myself anymore if I stayed. So I left and I still miss my friends and somewhere to go every single night and twice on Sunday. And its been 20 years.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Yup.
Hard to go back (to pre-TWI days) when you've burned all your bridges.
I know that feeling quite well myself.
(edited for 2x post)
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
While I can completely relate to the feeling expressed here, what I differ with is sitting around missing friends and someplace to go. If these people are not currently your friends because you have chosen to go a different way in your ministry associations, were they ever REALLY your friends? There are plenty of great people out in our societies, and great Christians as well who mostly have never heard of TWI. Develop a hobby, go bowling, darts, shoot pool, do knitting clubs, photography, go back to school, meet new friends, start a supper club, start a babysitting exchange.
You know, all those things we used to involve ourselves with in the community under the guise of "moving the Word"? Well, now you can actually enjoy them for the richness of the people they expose you to as opposed to having some kind of ulterior motive or class or lame fellowship to sell them.
I will not let the Pharisees dictate my future.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Welcome to Grease Spot, Okey Dokey!
I know exactly what you mean and I've had similar feelings…I agree – TWI never made me do anything…but doggone it, they perfected the art of manipulation, intimidation & deceit.
The mindset that loyal followers adopted was almost like an invisible rudder attached to the will, which would go with the flow of all things TWI. Convincing folks that all other options are dead ends is really not giving people a choice. I used to hear it many different ways when I was in – but the sentiment was always the same – the only other choice you have to "the Word" is oblivion. Please note my signature at bottom of post – TWI were masters at intellectual tyranny.
Does a scam artist make someone buy their bum stuff? Nope – sales by deceit.
Does a TWI leader make someone give of their resources? Nope – but they sure can intimidate you by saying God won't even spit in your direction if you don't.
Can TWI make someone stay with the organization? Nope – but through subtleties of manipulation – they can pull on the ol' heart strings ya know – "You're going to walk out on God & His Family?! How could you let down God & your fellow believers! After all this ministry has done for you. Where else are you going to find the rightly divided Word?"
My wife & I sure do miss the many good folks we've met while it it. We left in 86…good news is – we've re-connected with a few and made some new friends here at Grease Spot as well!
Life is good…freedom is great...please stick around - it only gets better from this point on,
Love & peace
T-Bone
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
OK, Socksness, see what you went and did. By participating in this thread, you made the following ad appear at the bottom of the page: "Womens Support Socks." That phrase leaves a lot to be desired, grammatically speaking, but yeah, I'd say we womens support Socks...or we at least like him a lot.
Back on topic:
Oeno, I know you already apologized to Socks for the tone of the following post, but because I find myself nodding in agreement with pretty much everything he said, I want to respond to what you said, without reacting to the tone of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oenophile
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oenophile
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Actually, with animals in domestication, probably the biggest determinant is SELECTIVE BREEDING.
It was demonstrated that 20 generations of an animal are all it can take in order to go from a "wild"
animal to a "docile" animal. This was done with a species of fox that was being farmed for its fur.
The farm staff only selected for breeding the members of each generation that were a bit more
"calm" than the others of the same generation. They did this for 20 generations, and the fur farm's
animals are now behaving completely differently than the ones 20 generations ago.
One can argue trying the same with humans. However, with humans, environment, experience,
acculturation and cognition (what the person actually THINKS) makes more of a difference than
any attempt to selectively breed nicer people.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
i had the "liesure" to watch oprah yesterday and it was about women who had killed their abusers, and the part i had time for was one women who killed her husband when he was going after her and i didn't see enough of that to know if she was sentenced or anything, and one women that killed her father in cold blood and was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole but after 18+ years her sentence was commuted and she is out now. this last woman i saw said over and over again that she did not go into her father's house to kill him, but she went into her father's house to "put an end to it now", and she talked about over and over again how her father was two people in her mind, one being "daddy" who loved her and took care of her and protected her, and one was "tom" who abused her, and how she still sees him like this when she thinks about the abuse.
i think that it must be like that for some people that were in the way, because i read so much about how some people had an overall good experience even though they saw the abuses and knew that something was terribly wrong but couldn't put their finger on it exactly. and if anybody doesn't think this shoe fits them, ok fine, i'm not trying to force this shoe on anybody's foot but i'm trying to understand and make sense of things in my own head, so i'm not trying to make anybody think about their way experience any differently than they think about, but i'm just trying to figure out things in my own head, and it is hard for me to understand that there are people that felt they were in 100 percent active control of themselves and their choices in the way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
I think vpw tried, though. I wouldn't be surprised if he envisioned a stronger, more beautiful, absolutely docile to the MOG Way Corps in the future by absolutely controlling marriages within the Corps and how children were raised by Corps.
he probably also wanted to live long enough to see the fruit of his vision, based on things he's supposed to have said about death.
I also have a hard time believing it, but far away from the influence of HQ there were pockets of people who still had the right to think for themselves. I do believe that everyone one of them was on an elimination list, though, and that if they ever crossed the line of being a simple irritant and became a real threat, they were out the door, ABS be damned. so they retain the illusion that they thought for themselves.
it was much different where I was. anyone within 250 miles of HQ in the 90s was in the toxic zone.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
I didn't (and still don't) think that any organization is perfect. TWI had this thing for doublespeak. It talked about legalism and not being that way, but it was very legalistic.
It talked about how bad private interpretation was, yet practiced it.
It talked about household and family, yet had no qualms about driving wedges in households and families.
It talked of people having "gifts," yet were highly selective in allowing people to use those gifts.
If one didn't get all wrapped up in the hoopla, then one could see this and respond accordingly. It is hard to go against the flow. It is even harder in a group with TWI's dynamic. But it could be done. It was hard to be authentic because authentic people have bad days. Negative was not tolerated, so if someone asked you how you were (the few who cared) it was nearly impossible to be honest about it if you were having a bad day.
The kicker was when you were having a bad day and then getting blamed for something that was so obviously out of your control. It took real strength of personal conviction to confront that kind of thinking. The first time that happened to me in a big way was the turning point for me. It ended up that these people were absolutely terrified to cross TWI because they couldn't imagine what was in store for them if they did, if TWI was actually providing them with a "hedge of protection" when the reality was that TWI's positions on certain things was placing them in harm's way. I remember one mother refusing to put her children in child restraints because to do so would interfere in the "hedge of protection," yet she didn't see the irony in monitoring their food, their social interactions, or not letting them play in the front yard which faced a busy street. When I pointed out the inconsistencies in her thinking, I think she did finally get it - maybe - I don't know. But I didn't keep my mouth shut.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
i remember when it was decided that the abundant sharing didn't stay in the twigs anymore and my brother went off the deep end about it and had terrible arguements with my mom and my sister because they though my brother wasn't being "spiritual enough" to "get it". when i think back on those scenes i can't help but to think that surely it was like this all over the place and what did people have to tell themselves to make it ok in their minds that the way headquarters was taking all of the abundant sharing and not giving anything back? and i wondered what that meant to my mom's finances having to feed and house and clothe and school all of us kids when we were with her because there were many times that the branch leader took out of the horn of plenty to bring groceries and stuff to her house, so i couldn't figure out what my mom was thinking and why she didn't care anymore for her children than she did for the way? and how many other moms and dads were doing the same thing? and maybe it didn't take food off the table or clothes of the backs or roofs from over the heads of their children, but when i got old enough i wondered did it take away from college funds or even better birthday presents or family trips? i mean at some point everybody had to make such choices in the way, didn't they?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Oeno, Tzaias original post to start the thread addresses what I think is the core issue in the discussion.
"Each one of us has a unique, authentic self, and I believe that is a necessary element of Christianity even as it causes an element of divisiveness in the body. I also believe that the deeper one's involvement in TWI, the more likely the tendency to distance oneself from being authentic and the deeper one has to go to un(re)cover the authentic self. The irony is that either way, you can't fool God."
We've all come down different roads of entry and egress in regards to "The Way Inc." But I would say that the single consistent elements for everyone were those relating to Christianity - God and Jesus Christ, and the bible as an inspired source of teaching. I know some here don't feel that was a part of what they did or got or saw, that it was all a lie and BS and a sham. I don't feel that way - but it doesn't matter and really isn't even worth discussing (for me) except when I get like this and like to hear my own voice (o so exquisite, it!) quacking.
If Christianity is all about establishing a true relationship with God to the end that our present lives are enriched and fulfilled -
Then each one of us that are Christians will have a singlular and unique story to tell, the one we're living. It will absolutely include good and bad parts, successess and failures.
Just as you, if I said anything different I wouldn't be being hmmm, "authentic".
The weird reference was a joke, sorry. (make that extra dry barkeep!) :) Of all the weirdo's you're definitely high on the weird scale, possible 9. something. The crazies here, that's whole 'nother storee.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
Yes, we all had to make choices. My husband was sending a $75 check every week to HQ in 1980, and I was having to scrape to put shoes and clothes on the kids, food on the table, and I didn't have a car. We didn't have the money, but by golly we had 15% to fill the black void of TWI. Do I sound a little perturbed? I told him that he could give as much as he wanted providing that our family was not forced to do without. I was never in favor of providing VPW a chopper while we were eating chicken thighs, rice, and beans. We weren't putting $1000 into an auditorium we wouldn't be using when the kids needed shoes. The 15% stuff stopped. In the meantime, one of our kids became critically ill and I was diagnosed with cancer. That was because we weren't abundant sharing. I refuse to worship the Guido/God.
We tithe, but he never tells me we don't have the money.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
so do you equate genetically acquired behaviour/instinct/thinking patterns etc. as the "authentic self"?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Reminds me, at the end of the movie "The Hustler", George C. Scott is facing off with Paul Newman over getting his "share" of Fast Eddie's winnings and screams - "YOU - OWE - ME ... MONEY!!"
Linda, thank you for your zupport.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.