For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
was thrown at me every time I endeavored to think, speak and act for myself. Anything not in line with what TWI taught and the leadershi+ wanted was considered rebellion and we know what happened to those who rebelled.... <_<
I first heard the term "authentic self" when I read Steve Hassan's, "Releasing the Bonds: Enabling People to Think for Themselves" although I realized that was what was happening to me once I realized that TWI was actually the deceitful, evil, fake church that I had often wondered about in the back of my mind.
Yeah, I questioned things and stirred the waters at times, especially before I got married - I was a very inconsistent and unreliable TWIt until I got married. If I hadn't gotten married, I think I would have told them to eat sh!+ much, much earlier than I did. Once I was married - married to a very obedient, subservient sold out kool-aid drinker - I did everything I could to stay in their good graces to save my marriage and stay out of trouble. I think, too, I really, really wanted TWI to be what I initially thought it was.
Once I could no longer deny that it wasn't, I lived a double life trying desperately to reconcile the two schools of thought: Leadership is always right and must always be obeyed vs. this is total and utter crap and I'm tired of having every minutia of my life scrutinized, judged and controlled.
After being "allowed" to "take a break" and getting into therapy against my ex's wishes I started feeling more like "me" - the "real me" is how I described it. Steve Hassan's book just put a label on it - "authentic self" and I rather like that term. It's who I am when I'm not having to censor my thoughts and actions for other people.... not just TWI, but also certain friends, co-workers, etc....
Also, I found that the philosopher Henri Bergson expressed "self" in a way that made sense to me and that I've been able to elaborate on and extrapolate on in different ways. Basically, that each individual instance of awareness, as say a moment of experience shared by two people of an event, is different and unique to each person because they don't share the same past. Memory defines our current "self" therefore and as a result our current individual experience can never be "the same". Similar perhaps but never the same.
Individual self awareness is critical to a relationship with God then, as there is "one" God and many of "us". We all have a relationship that's unique and different. I could assume that if God had wanted something different - or for an atheist that processes would have produced something different - than we'd see it. But we don't and never have throughout human history. So it appears to be a done deal and one we would need to embrace as part of a healthy relationship with our own 'self" others, and indeed, God. :)
True, TZ. On a basic level, perception goes with the territory of being a single, identifiable individual. Simply put, I would suggest to remember is to perceive, and the result of both is to be aware of our "selves" at the moment. Perception is unique to each of us because we are each unique. That's kind of a gimme, like saying the sky's blue - but once we think about that blue sky, we see the nature of perception. "It is what it is" and may be very different from another position of view or under different conditions, etc. etc. etc. .
As people though we only have one true natural position of view and that's our own, our own memory, present, "self", soul. We see from "in here" - "this side" of the eyes. We're not out there looking in, we're in here, looking out. Individual awareness can be faulty and unreliable, no question about it, but it's what it is, and what we have to work with.
Perhaps some of us believed that our authentic selves was not what Christ would want us to be, so we conformed to someone else's image of God and Christ.
I honestly believe that most of the people here did what they did because they believed they (or someone) felt it (whatever "it" was) was the right thing to do to live godly lives.
Where TWI is like so many other controlling religious organizations is that there isn't any room for individuality, much less authenticity because *our* essence is dead in trespasses and sin. The organization sees the need to stamp that out because man is evil to the core in his authentic state. Of course in the course of doing that, the organization, which is man-made, fails to understand that it was formed by and run by people equally as dead in trespasses and sins. That's where VPW had to bring in the miracle aspect. That offsets the sin part.
I was ok with some level of "control" until I found out I was dealing with a system of leadership that was utterly depraved. Once I found that out, any and all sense of them knowing what was "best" was gone. There's no "miracle" that will restore credibility. They all failed the above reproach criteria of leadership.
Bolshevik, I would say that the idea of "vain" philosophy probably wasn't clearly understood in TWI. Not that there aren't good kinds or bad kinds, I'm sure that's a topic in itself. But the tools of philosophy are the basic tools of thinking and reasoning, both of which God expects a person to do, by all accounts.
That said, clearly there's a pattern of thinking and reasoning that God functions in and with that man would do well to understand or at least attempt to learn and recognize. In that sense, the "truth of God's Word" that TWI claims to promote need not fear any discipline, inquiry or type of thought. If something is true it will reveal itself from all angles, albeit to varying degrees.
The verse in Colossions refers to being taken captive, or hostage, by things that are contrary to a true understanding of Christ.
"...much less authenticity because *our* essence is dead in trespasses and sin."
Oh yeah, that's a big topic alright. I'll be honest, my understanding of the basic tenets taught in PFAL regarding salvation in Christ are that they're fundamentally correct.
Taken on face value the idea of a "life lived with abundant power" as taught in PFAL does one thing very clearly - it assumes that an individual has a life that can be improved by an abundance of power. That unique indvidual, loved by God and redeemed by Christ, manifests their true selves "in Christ" as they "walk worthy" of their calling. Etc. Etc.
For that to occur there really can't be a loss of individual identity, in fact the individual identity would be assumed to blossom under these proper, abundant conditions. The end result is one of God's direction, one that flourishes within the new relationship a person has and grows into with God.
Where do you find self? Is it to be found in the body? At this very moment there are millions of cells dying in your body which are being replaced by new ones. The body you inhabited a year ago is not the body you inhabit now. Yet "you" go on.
Do you find self (soul) in your breath? Breathing is merely an exchange of gases. You take in oxygen and release CO2. Is soul to be found in the oxygen you take in or the CO2 you release?
Is soul to be found in the mind? Is soul to be found somewhere in the millions of synapses in the brain or is it the electrical current that flows through the brain and out to various nerve endings in the body and back? Is soul found in the provisional blackboard of your mind where you record your experiences?
Or is soul something larger than ourselves? Is soul every life on the planet, every atom of cosmic matter in the universe, every physical law of which we individually are merely a cell?
Could soul be no soul? Could mind be no mind? Could it be that when we extinguish the notion of our separate souls, we finally wake up to life?
Where do you find self? Is it to be found in the body? At this very moment there are millions of cells dying in your body which are being replaced by new ones. The body you inhabited a year ago is not the body you inhabit now. Yet "you" go on.
In his book Consilience, E. O. Wilson took note that sociology has identified belief in a soul as one of the universal human cultural elements. Wilson suggested that biologists need to investigate how human genes predispose people to believe in a soul.[citation needed]
Daniel Dennett has championed the idea that the human survival strategy depends heavily on adoption of the intentional stance, a behavioral strategy that predicts the actions of others based on the expectation that they have a mind like one's own (see theory of mind). Mirror neurons in brain regions such as Broca's area may facilitate this behavioral strategy. The intentional stance, Dennett suggests, has proven so successful that people tend to apply it to all aspects of human experience, thus leading to animism and to other conceptualizations of soul.[35]
"Self" is who you are deep down inside, at your very core, before factoring in experiential shaping.
"Identity" is who your "self" has become BECAUSE of experiential shaping. (At least in part)
When the two clash, the results are not always pleasant. For example, consider a person whose real "self" is that of an artist or poet but whose "identity" has been defined by years spent working in the family's plumbing business. Maybe this explains why people in the '60s were so intent on discovering their self before settling on an identity.
For that to occur there really can't be a loss of individual identity, in fact the individual identity would be assumed to blossom under these proper, abundant conditions. The end result is one of God's direction, one that flourishes within the new relationship a person has and grows into with God.
Yes, actually I did. I've stated before on GS that my own 'sense of self' was fully intact during "my Way years". I don't really understand how a person could lose that but I certainly allow for the fact that some did because they state they did. I'll go with that, on face value.
My point about PFAL is that the logic of the opening material covered doesn't denigrate or diminish the individual's sense of self - if John 10:10 "b" is the foundation of the entire premise, in Jesus's own words He came to provide life, more abundant. I've got life now. If I have more of it and in abundance, I end up with - if not more in quantity (debatable) than certainly in quality, in some form or substance that can be valued as better. The relationship of being a "child of God" by a "new birth" adds a new dimension to the life I now live - as Galatians states "I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." A "new creation" in Christ, yes, but I know that, I'm aware of that, "me".
For a person to have written that they must have known who they were and that their individuality, their own sense of self as having been "crucified with Christ" and now living with "Christ in me" was intact.
In that way Bergson's proposal that memory is a way to define present cognition makes complete sense to me. To be redeemed from sin and know it I must have memory and therefore some awareness of who I both was, and now am. I can't exist now without a past. Put another way, the future has a past, this present moment. And so it goes.
In that way I'd use the word "blossom" or grow to describe what an ongoing relationship with God produces. For my self, anyway. It's certainly not worse than it was, that's for sure.
The idea of "christ in you the hope of glory" and the whole "As he is" ideals is the bedrock of how the pwoer of Christ was seen felt and heard in twi.
YET
One must consider the stages and awareness and vast diversity twi attracted within its people and the fact to "know self" can not be assumed amoung all in twi ranks. PFAL was instruction and like all instruction people learn at their own pace , I believe it did lead to folks being born again , but having holy spirit is NOT the cure fro the illness of mankind today. it is a comfort and a help only.
people had/have luggage in life.
we all have stuff to deal with and with Christ alive on throne I believe we all can be true to authenic self it is a process indeed life itself.
I was 24 when I took pfal I am not 24 I think differently about life.
Twi kind of over took the process of growing up fro some the process of becoming a self . twi replaced genuine reflection and thought with a preprocessed set of how we should be.
and when it failed to lead many to the longing of their authenic self and real relationship with God many felt angry and betrayed.
Not to metion those who bought the package hook line and sinker only to be told they were not good enough for it. So to start the process of growth whether within the confines of bible study and instruction or even life itself it was a challenge. and scary .
and sadly it took from some the ability to recognize who can and will save us from that lost feeling in life the Lord Jesus christ, I just can not believe my Lord is as frail as any human is , the idea of "power from on HIGH to me is it is from ON HIGH not thatperson directing another or "leading them into anything.
the source of comfort was gone and replaced with people spewing bible verses as bullets with the means to control another.
that is not love
that is not who Jesus christ is to me. but I say that is what twi sold.
We don't disagree for the most part, pond. I can only speak for myself. I got and get lots of comfort from the bible, from fellowship with other people, from holy spirit, from a decent night sleep and another sunrise. This happened in spades for years in the Way and what I did there and who I interacted and worked with. Without question, there was failure at some points, in me and others.
TWI didn't take the process of growing up and becoming "a self" from me nor did it lead me away from Christ. There's reasons for that. I don't expect that you or anyone else would have the same reasons.
I've long stated and held to (since the late 70's) the premise that in The Way Inkynational the entire idea of "likemindedness" was ill conceived, understood and realized. And over the last, what - 12-13 years online it's shown unquestionably that "everyone" wasn't. People held widely different beliefs, opinions, ideas and attitudes over many different locations and time periods despite the fact that "everyone" "heard" and "spoke" the same thing. It was never so. Common ground and understanding, to degrees.
And that's the way it should be, we're not all alike and we don't all pop in or out of the same mold.
"Self" is who you are deep down inside, at your very core, before factoring in experiential shaping.
"Identity" is who your "self" has become BECAUSE of experiential shaping. (At least in part)
When the two clash, the results are not always pleasant. For example, consider a person whose real "self" is that of an artist or poet but whose "identity" has been defined by years spent working in the family's plumbing business. Maybe this explains why people in the '60s were so intent on discovering their self before settling on an identity.
Isn't it an assumption that there is a "self at your very core"? How could you separate anything from experience? The moment you are born, or conceived, maybe sooner, you have experiences.
the way compartmentalized the self into body soul and spirit, and most religions do separate the self into these same basic compartments, and all this serves to do is to make a war inside people's heads because each part of such a self is so totally different from the other part that any unification into a whole is next to impossible, so the way came up with "renewed mind" to bring out the part they wanted for their organization. and this is what i meant when i first said something about stealing my soul, which is where this whole question came up if i understand it right. to me the "soul" is undefineable by anybody but our own selves for our own selves because whatever it is for anybody it is only for them to decide because the whole thing is about how you or i define ourselves. some people like to have an external model to define themselves, and they live their lives very happy thinking that there's a part of them that is "dead" and it's called the "body", and there's a part of them that is "quickened" and it's called the "spirit", and part of them is in limbo and it's called the "soul". for me that was just too crazy thinking and caused too many problems with my sanity, so i stuck with "soul" being just me, and the rest of the stuff being what everybody else tried to make me be, and the whole of it being nothing but the mind itself, but being a unified mind and not a compartmentalized mind.
this really helped me to perceive what part of my thinking was my "authentic self" and what part of my thinking was conditioning from the way and other abuse and training. so for example i always felt that abortion was about a human being and not about a "parasitcal mass", but in the way there was such terrible backlash for thinking like this that i got habituated to thinking that i was wrong and the way was right, which meant that whenever the subject of abortion came up, then i had to war within myself to push down what i was feeling and thinking on my own and make myself feel and think what the way wanted me to feel and think. after awhile my own thoughts and feelings never came up, then after awhile of that thinking, it seemed like it was my own thoughts and feelings to think like the way, and then after awhile of that thinking, my mind told me that the way agreed with me, instead of it being the other way around. it's a progressive and and planned and purposeful and methodical thing to steal someone's soul.
love is the authentic relationship -- self and jesus christ/god ...... my search always ..... and my comfort forever.... long before twi and thankfully still real to me after veepee
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Tzaia
I didn't (and still don't) think that any organization is perfect. TWI had this thing for doublespeak. It talked about legalism and not being that way, but it was very legalistic. It talked about ho
Tzaia
Yes, we all had to make choices. My husband was sending a $75 check every week to HQ in 1980, and I was having to scrape to put shoes and clothes on the kids, food on the table, and I didn't have a ca
Tzaia
I think one has to avoid confusing the comfort of familiarity with being real (authentic).
waysider
Take the time to Journey to The Center of the Mind.
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Belle
The verse
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
was thrown at me every time I endeavored to think, speak and act for myself. Anything not in line with what TWI taught and the leadershi+ wanted was considered rebellion and we know what happened to those who rebelled.... <_<
I first heard the term "authentic self" when I read Steve Hassan's, "Releasing the Bonds: Enabling People to Think for Themselves" although I realized that was what was happening to me once I realized that TWI was actually the deceitful, evil, fake church that I had often wondered about in the back of my mind.
Yeah, I questioned things and stirred the waters at times, especially before I got married - I was a very inconsistent and unreliable TWIt until I got married. If I hadn't gotten married, I think I would have told them to eat sh!+ much, much earlier than I did. Once I was married - married to a very obedient, subservient sold out kool-aid drinker - I did everything I could to stay in their good graces to save my marriage and stay out of trouble. I think, too, I really, really wanted TWI to be what I initially thought it was.
Once I could no longer deny that it wasn't, I lived a double life trying desperately to reconcile the two schools of thought: Leadership is always right and must always be obeyed vs. this is total and utter crap and I'm tired of having every minutia of my life scrutinized, judged and controlled.
After being "allowed" to "take a break" and getting into therapy against my ex's wishes I started feeling more like "me" - the "real me" is how I described it. Steve Hassan's book just put a label on it - "authentic self" and I rather like that term. It's who I am when I'm not having to censor my thoughts and actions for other people.... not just TWI, but also certain friends, co-workers, etc....
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Bolshevik
reminds me of this author for some reason:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlie_Russell_Hochschild
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socks
On raising a child, and the meaning of Proverbs 22:6....HERE
Some of the alternative translations...HERE
Also, I found that the philosopher Henri Bergson expressed "self" in a way that made sense to me and that I've been able to elaborate on and extrapolate on in different ways. Basically, that each individual instance of awareness, as say a moment of experience shared by two people of an event, is different and unique to each person because they don't share the same past. Memory defines our current "self" therefore and as a result our current individual experience can never be "the same". Similar perhaps but never the same.
Individual self awareness is critical to a relationship with God then, as there is "one" God and many of "us". We all have a relationship that's unique and different. I could assume that if God had wanted something different - or for an atheist that processes would have produced something different - than we'd see it. But we don't and never have throughout human history. So it appears to be a done deal and one we would need to embrace as part of a healthy relationship with our own 'self" others, and indeed, God. :)
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Tzaia
It is our perception of those events (which is determined by a number of things) that shapes our experience.
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Bolshevik
Now isn't that the purpose of philosophy? (self awareness?)
Just reminded of twi's take on "beware of vain philosophy"
where all philosophy is bad, so don't even look at it. 
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socks
True, TZ. On a basic level, perception goes with the territory of being a single, identifiable individual. Simply put, I would suggest to remember is to perceive, and the result of both is to be aware of our "selves" at the moment. Perception is unique to each of us because we are each unique. That's kind of a gimme, like saying the sky's blue - but once we think about that blue sky, we see the nature of perception. "It is what it is" and may be very different from another position of view or under different conditions, etc. etc. etc. .
As people though we only have one true natural position of view and that's our own, our own memory, present, "self", soul. We see from "in here" - "this side" of the eyes. We're not out there looking in, we're in here, looking out. Individual awareness can be faulty and unreliable, no question about it, but it's what it is, and what we have to work with.
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Tzaia
Perhaps some of us believed that our authentic selves was not what Christ would want us to be, so we conformed to someone else's image of God and Christ.
I honestly believe that most of the people here did what they did because they believed they (or someone) felt it (whatever "it" was) was the right thing to do to live godly lives.
Where TWI is like so many other controlling religious organizations is that there isn't any room for individuality, much less authenticity because *our* essence is dead in trespasses and sin. The organization sees the need to stamp that out because man is evil to the core in his authentic state. Of course in the course of doing that, the organization, which is man-made, fails to understand that it was formed by and run by people equally as dead in trespasses and sins. That's where VPW had to bring in the miracle aspect. That offsets the sin part.
I was ok with some level of "control" until I found out I was dealing with a system of leadership that was utterly depraved. Once I found that out, any and all sense of them knowing what was "best" was gone. There's no "miracle" that will restore credibility. They all failed the above reproach criteria of leadership.
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socks
Bolshevik, I would say that the idea of "vain" philosophy probably wasn't clearly understood in TWI. Not that there aren't good kinds or bad kinds, I'm sure that's a topic in itself. But the tools of philosophy are the basic tools of thinking and reasoning, both of which God expects a person to do, by all accounts.
That said, clearly there's a pattern of thinking and reasoning that God functions in and with that man would do well to understand or at least attempt to learn and recognize. In that sense, the "truth of God's Word" that TWI claims to promote need not fear any discipline, inquiry or type of thought. If something is true it will reveal itself from all angles, albeit to varying degrees.
The verse in Colossions refers to being taken captive, or hostage, by things that are contrary to a true understanding of Christ.
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socks
"...much less authenticity because *our* essence is dead in trespasses and sin."
Oh yeah, that's a big topic alright. I'll be honest, my understanding of the basic tenets taught in PFAL regarding salvation in Christ are that they're fundamentally correct.
Taken on face value the idea of a "life lived with abundant power" as taught in PFAL does one thing very clearly - it assumes that an individual has a life that can be improved by an abundance of power. That unique indvidual, loved by God and redeemed by Christ, manifests their true selves "in Christ" as they "walk worthy" of their calling. Etc. Etc.
For that to occur there really can't be a loss of individual identity, in fact the individual identity would be assumed to blossom under these proper, abundant conditions. The end result is one of God's direction, one that flourishes within the new relationship a person has and grows into with God.
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brainfixed
i don't know if i understand your last two posts socks, because i wonder if you're being tongue in cheek or serious?
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oenophile
The Authentic Self
Where do you find self? Is it to be found in the body? At this very moment there are millions of cells dying in your body which are being replaced by new ones. The body you inhabited a year ago is not the body you inhabit now. Yet "you" go on.
Do you find self (soul) in your breath? Breathing is merely an exchange of gases. You take in oxygen and release CO2. Is soul to be found in the oxygen you take in or the CO2 you release?
Is soul to be found in the mind? Is soul to be found somewhere in the millions of synapses in the brain or is it the electrical current that flows through the brain and out to various nerve endings in the body and back? Is soul found in the provisional blackboard of your mind where you record your experiences?
Or is soul something larger than ourselves? Is soul every life on the planet, every atom of cosmic matter in the universe, every physical law of which we individually are merely a cell?
Could soul be no soul? Could mind be no mind? Could it be that when we extinguish the notion of our separate souls, we finally wake up to life?
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Bolshevik
. . . nothing is real . . .
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Bolshevik
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul
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socks
Nothing in this cheek other than lunch and it's going quick.
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waysider
'nother concept to ponder.
"Self" is who you are deep down inside, at your very core, before factoring in experiential shaping.
"Identity" is who your "self" has become BECAUSE of experiential shaping. (At least in part)
When the two clash, the results are not always pleasant. For example, consider a person whose real "self" is that of an artist or poet but whose "identity" has been defined by years spent working in the family's plumbing business. Maybe this explains why people in the '60s were so intent on discovering their self before settling on an identity.
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excathedra
of course i'm getting lost (in my soul ;))
you learned that in twi ?
i think i lost that in twi
but maybe before and they it just helped me along
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socks
Yes, actually I did. I've stated before on GS that my own 'sense of self' was fully intact during "my Way years". I don't really understand how a person could lose that but I certainly allow for the fact that some did because they state they did. I'll go with that, on face value.
My point about PFAL is that the logic of the opening material covered doesn't denigrate or diminish the individual's sense of self - if John 10:10 "b" is the foundation of the entire premise, in Jesus's own words He came to provide life, more abundant. I've got life now. If I have more of it and in abundance, I end up with - if not more in quantity (debatable) than certainly in quality, in some form or substance that can be valued as better. The relationship of being a "child of God" by a "new birth" adds a new dimension to the life I now live - as Galatians states "I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." A "new creation" in Christ, yes, but I know that, I'm aware of that, "me".
For a person to have written that they must have known who they were and that their individuality, their own sense of self as having been "crucified with Christ" and now living with "Christ in me" was intact.
In that way Bergson's proposal that memory is a way to define present cognition makes complete sense to me. To be redeemed from sin and know it I must have memory and therefore some awareness of who I both was, and now am. I can't exist now without a past. Put another way, the future has a past, this present moment. And so it goes.
In that way I'd use the word "blossom" or grow to describe what an ongoing relationship with God produces. For my self, anyway. It's certainly not worse than it was, that's for sure.
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pond
yes socks.
The idea of "christ in you the hope of glory" and the whole "As he is" ideals is the bedrock of how the pwoer of Christ was seen felt and heard in twi.
YET
One must consider the stages and awareness and vast diversity twi attracted within its people and the fact to "know self" can not be assumed amoung all in twi ranks. PFAL was instruction and like all instruction people learn at their own pace , I believe it did lead to folks being born again , but having holy spirit is NOT the cure fro the illness of mankind today. it is a comfort and a help only.
people had/have luggage in life.
we all have stuff to deal with and with Christ alive on throne I believe we all can be true to authenic self it is a process indeed life itself.
I was 24 when I took pfal I am not 24 I think differently about life.
Twi kind of over took the process of growing up fro some the process of becoming a self . twi replaced genuine reflection and thought with a preprocessed set of how we should be.
and when it failed to lead many to the longing of their authenic self and real relationship with God many felt angry and betrayed.
Not to metion those who bought the package hook line and sinker only to be told they were not good enough for it. So to start the process of growth whether within the confines of bible study and instruction or even life itself it was a challenge. and scary .
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pond
yes amen and yes again
and sadly it took from some the ability to recognize who can and will save us from that lost feeling in life the Lord Jesus christ, I just can not believe my Lord is as frail as any human is , the idea of "power from on HIGH to me is it is from ON HIGH not thatperson directing another or "leading them into anything.
the source of comfort was gone and replaced with people spewing bible verses as bullets with the means to control another.
that is not love
that is not who Jesus christ is to me. but I say that is what twi sold.
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socks
We don't disagree for the most part, pond. I can only speak for myself. I got and get lots of comfort from the bible, from fellowship with other people, from holy spirit, from a decent night sleep and another sunrise. This happened in spades for years in the Way and what I did there and who I interacted and worked with. Without question, there was failure at some points, in me and others.
TWI didn't take the process of growing up and becoming "a self" from me nor did it lead me away from Christ. There's reasons for that. I don't expect that you or anyone else would have the same reasons.
I've long stated and held to (since the late 70's) the premise that in The Way Inkynational the entire idea of "likemindedness" was ill conceived, understood and realized. And over the last, what - 12-13 years online it's shown unquestionably that "everyone" wasn't. People held widely different beliefs, opinions, ideas and attitudes over many different locations and time periods despite the fact that "everyone" "heard" and "spoke" the same thing. It was never so. Common ground and understanding, to degrees.
And that's the way it should be, we're not all alike and we don't all pop in or out of the same mold.
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Bolshevik
Isn't it an assumption that there is a "self at your very core"? How could you separate anything from experience? The moment you are born, or conceived, maybe sooner, you have experiences.
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brainfixed
the way compartmentalized the self into body soul and spirit, and most religions do separate the self into these same basic compartments, and all this serves to do is to make a war inside people's heads because each part of such a self is so totally different from the other part that any unification into a whole is next to impossible, so the way came up with "renewed mind" to bring out the part they wanted for their organization. and this is what i meant when i first said something about stealing my soul, which is where this whole question came up if i understand it right. to me the "soul" is undefineable by anybody but our own selves for our own selves because whatever it is for anybody it is only for them to decide because the whole thing is about how you or i define ourselves. some people like to have an external model to define themselves, and they live their lives very happy thinking that there's a part of them that is "dead" and it's called the "body", and there's a part of them that is "quickened" and it's called the "spirit", and part of them is in limbo and it's called the "soul". for me that was just too crazy thinking and caused too many problems with my sanity, so i stuck with "soul" being just me, and the rest of the stuff being what everybody else tried to make me be, and the whole of it being nothing but the mind itself, but being a unified mind and not a compartmentalized mind.
this really helped me to perceive what part of my thinking was my "authentic self" and what part of my thinking was conditioning from the way and other abuse and training. so for example i always felt that abortion was about a human being and not about a "parasitcal mass", but in the way there was such terrible backlash for thinking like this that i got habituated to thinking that i was wrong and the way was right, which meant that whenever the subject of abortion came up, then i had to war within myself to push down what i was feeling and thinking on my own and make myself feel and think what the way wanted me to feel and think. after awhile my own thoughts and feelings never came up, then after awhile of that thinking, it seemed like it was my own thoughts and feelings to think like the way, and then after awhile of that thinking, my mind told me that the way agreed with me, instead of it being the other way around. it's a progressive and and planned and purposeful and methodical thing to steal someone's soul.
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excathedra
love is the authentic relationship -- self and jesus christ/god ...... my search always ..... and my comfort forever.... long before twi and thankfully still real to me after veepee
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