Debt is an interesting topic, one which (surprisingly) TWI doesn't have right.
I thought they had abandoned the "no debt" policy?
What I'd be interested in, though, is the personal assets of the BoD or whatever they call themselves now. There were reports at the Cafe about Rosie having co-ownership of a piece of land that is mostly forest. Well, as she lives in Ohio, in a well-appointed home with zero need for expenditure, what does she want with forest elsewhere?
Acts 2:
4 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
And I wonder what other "lands" any of them secretly own? With or without loans.
If they want Corps to live squeaky clean lives - they need to set the example themselves.
It came up in another thread, so I thought to start this one new.
I also realize that TWI will probably not do it, but thought it would be fun anyhow... :) :)
But if they would......
I'D DOUBLE-DOG DARE TWI'S B.O.D. TO TAKE A 'SPIRITUAL OATH' ON JUST THEIR CORPS IF THEY ARE
IN ANY DEBT, IN ANY WAY OR FASHION, TO ANYONE....INCLUDING THEIR FAMILY & FRIENDS.....
I know one Corps couple who were honest enough to bring it up, and they were 'unanimously' dropped after decades of
faithful service. If they didn't bring it up, no one would have ever found out. They're glad they did now, and are living a
great life in service to God and prospering.
I wonder how many that are lurking and yet reading this are in the category of living dishonestly, with hidden debt? Personally,
I have no problem with responsible debt. But how can they say they are 'with' the BOD yet don't live clean in this category?
Patriot.........yeah, this topic came front and center a few years ago when the bod were, seemingly, strict about this 'mortgage debt' issue. At the time, if I remember correctly, one corps/clergy couple in Tampa had this parent-signed mortgage arrangement........as well as a reported limb couple in Indiana.
It is my opinion that twi picks and chooses its "battles".........and wanted to tread lightly on 'leadership mortgages' because they didn't want to shake the bushes any more than necessary. After all, the abs numbers must be on the slide quite drastically.........can twi 'afford' to lose more people ($$) even if they have mortgage debt?
Twi is like a good-fellas club..........they willfully turn away from confrontation when 'friends and chums' are involved.
It came up in another thread, so I thought to start this one new.
I also realize that TWI will probably not do it, but thought it would be fun anyhow... :) :)
But if they would......
I'D DOUBLE-DOG DARE TWI'S B.O.D. TO TAKE A 'SPIRITUAL OATH' ON JUST THEIR CORPS IF THEY ARE
IN ANY DEBT, IN ANY WAY OR FASHION, TO ANYONE....INCLUDING THEIR FAMILY & FRIENDS.....
I know one Corps couple who were honest enough to bring it up, and they were 'unanimously' dropped after decades of
faithful service. If they didn't bring it up, no one would have ever found out. They're glad they did now, and are living a
great life in service to God and prospering.
I wonder how many that are lurking and yet reading this are in the category of living dishonestly, with hidden debt? Personally,
I have no problem with responsible debt. But how can they say they are 'with' the BOD yet don't live clean in this category?
It's like Roman Catholic priests being secretly married, who tow the company line, but really believe in abortion, etc. What is their
rationalization for not coming clean? Fear & bondage?
Also, IF (and I've personally spoken to at least 3 Corps who were with hidden debt, and refuse to come clean) what I think
is happening, what would the B.O.D. do if they lost 33%+ of their leadership?? Corps or non-Corps? Would they re-think their
man-made punitive policy? Does the BOD actually want to know???
So, I dare them......take (as LCM called it) a 'spiritual oath' and make people come clean or lie to them. Maybe their 'eyes and ears
of the church' are perceptive enough to 'smoke 'em out.'
PS - Personally, I believe it is wise, especially in these economic times, to be as free from debt as possible. Still, its by choice.
Their no debt policy is such a legalistic joke,I can't believe what I read earlier about how if a debt is in someone else's name it is then o.k. by the way's standards,how can the B.O.D. honestly before God put this spin/loophole in their no debt policy and think they are being honest before God.I imagine they have probably taken some verse out of context to promote this part of the policy.I remember a few years ago being at a hfc mtg. (when I was still part of twi) the purpose of the meeting was to discuss how twi no debt policy was still in full force and nothing had changed about it,I spoke up at the meeting about my disagreement with their policy,I said I don't believe it is right to punish people who have debt (not allowing them to coordinate a fellowship etc.),the response I got back was that it is not punishment it is a ministry standard.I believe the majority of people in that meeting did not agree with the policy,but were afraid to speak up.In my opinion the no debt policy among alot of other things is a big reason the way cannot keep it's followers nor attract new people."Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them".
Back in the mid-1990's when the "no debt" policy came crashing down on TWI, homeowners were told in no uncertain terms to sell their houses and find a cheap place to rent. One non-WC couple refused and were immediately M&A'd. We were told they loved their house more than they loved God, and were idolaters.
Another couple, WC grads and great personal friends of the BC, said they had devised a way to pay off their mortgage in its entirety in two years. Guess what! They kept the house AND their WC status!
Have you ever noticed how easy it is for someone who has no debts (because they live in someone else's house rent free and have everything bought for them) to talk about what's best for everyone else?
I remember LCM stating on a SNS tape that he had never owned a home and saw no reason why anyone else should. I thought "You never had to, you SOB! Mommy and daddy to jock dorm to a trail at HQ, to a paid-for apt in Oklahoma to Emporia to the castle in the woods. Everything paid for by our ABS." Of course he never had to own a home; everyone else paid for his room and board.
I remember LCM stating on a SNS tape that he had never owned a home and saw no reason why anyone else should. I thought "You never had to, you SOB! Mommy and daddy to jock dorm to a trail at HQ, to a paid-for apt in Oklahoma to Emporia to the castle in the woods. Everything paid for by our ABS." Of course he never had to own a home; everyone else paid for his room and board.
Which begs the question: (mustering up my best Dr. Phil inspired Texas twang) How's that werkin' fer ya now Craig?
I have assumed the same thing. However, apparently it's not the legal department keeping this policy in place. It's Rosalie.
LOTS of currently leadership including several region coordinators, presidents cabinet and others are not on board with this policy. And yet it persists.
It's seems to be just about control. To make the change now would be akin to admitting error, and they never do that for fear of weakening their position.
I agree some of the Corps and Advanced class grads have adopted their own "don't ask, don't tell" policy on debt. They figure it's none of their business in the first place and as such don't view it as being deceptive not to volunteer this information.
It's seems to be just about control. To make the change now would be akin to admitting error, and they never do that for fear of weakening their position.
. . .
well, vpw died of cancer and that didn't bother anyone. this is a new, dynamic church.
" . . . no, no, what we meant was a spiritual debt . . ."
JT, it is still in place. :( People have been beaten down so much that they don't have to yell about it anymore, but it is still there.
Belle,
First of all... how you doin' beautiful?!!!
The orange apron slogan is "You can do it, we can help." Boy isn't that a switch! It sounds better than TWI: "You can do it. And you'll pay us to let you do it."
I remember LCM stating on a SNS tape that he had never owned a home and saw no reason why anyone else should. I thought "You never had to, you SOB! Mommy and daddy to jock dorm to a trail at HQ, to a paid-for apt in Oklahoma to Emporia to the castle in the woods. Everything paid for by our ABS." Of course he never had to own a home; everyone else paid for his room and board.
WG
I've often wondered if he continues to get his way paid for.
Honestly, I cannot imagine that he wouldn't have negotiated or been offered some kind of a severance package - I mean the guy had no experience doing anything other than preaching and yelling; I believe he had a psychology degree? And wouldn't he have to pay child support if he's divorced now? Believe me, I live in Ohio and my son is divorced from his first wife, and all it takes is one phone call if the support payment isn't deposited on time, and the payer's butt is slammer-bound.
Of course that's none of my business, I guess, but it would certainly be a reason to need more money than an entry level job would pay, unless the kids are all three independent by now.
Honestly, I cannot imagine that he wouldn't have negotiated or been offered some kind of a severance package --WG
Oh, I don't think he negotiated a thing... but when he was removed from his throne he was most likely in the same (aggitated, depressed) frame of mind he was in the days after POP was read. My understanding is that he was put on antidepressants and watched very closely.
I think twi was smart enough to realize he knew where most of the skeletons were hidden, and they didn't want to risk the chance of offending him by cutting him off with nothing. He was placed in a city and in a home where the go-to-corps-doc could watch over him as closely as needed... it doesn't take much imagination to assume they paid his other expenses as well...
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Twinky
Debt is an interesting topic, one which (surprisingly) TWI doesn't have right.
I thought they had abandoned the "no debt" policy?
What I'd be interested in, though, is the personal assets of the BoD or whatever they call themselves now. There were reports at the Cafe about Rosie having co-ownership of a piece of land that is mostly forest. Well, as she lives in Ohio, in a well-appointed home with zero need for expenditure, what does she want with forest elsewhere?
Acts 2:
4 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, 37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
And I wonder what other "lands" any of them secretly own? With or without loans.
If they want Corps to live squeaky clean lives - they need to set the example themselves.
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skyrider
Patriot.........yeah, this topic came front and center a few years ago when the bod were, seemingly, strict about this 'mortgage debt' issue. At the time, if I remember correctly, one corps/clergy couple in Tampa had this parent-signed mortgage arrangement........as well as a reported limb couple in Indiana.
It is my opinion that twi picks and chooses its "battles".........and wanted to tread lightly on 'leadership mortgages' because they didn't want to shake the bushes any more than necessary. After all, the abs numbers must be on the slide quite drastically.........can twi 'afford' to lose more people ($$) even if they have mortgage debt?
Twi is like a good-fellas club..........they willfully turn away from confrontation when 'friends and chums' are involved.
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mudflaps
Their no debt policy is such a legalistic joke,I can't believe what I read earlier about how if a debt is in someone else's name it is then o.k. by the way's standards,how can the B.O.D. honestly before God put this spin/loophole in their no debt policy and think they are being honest before God.I imagine they have probably taken some verse out of context to promote this part of the policy.I remember a few years ago being at a hfc mtg. (when I was still part of twi) the purpose of the meeting was to discuss how twi no debt policy was still in full force and nothing had changed about it,I spoke up at the meeting about my disagreement with their policy,I said I don't believe it is right to punish people who have debt (not allowing them to coordinate a fellowship etc.),the response I got back was that it is not punishment it is a ministry standard.I believe the majority of people in that meeting did not agree with the policy,but were afraid to speak up.In my opinion the no debt policy among alot of other things is a big reason the way cannot keep it's followers nor attract new people."Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them".
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Watered Garden
Back in the mid-1990's when the "no debt" policy came crashing down on TWI, homeowners were told in no uncertain terms to sell their houses and find a cheap place to rent. One non-WC couple refused and were immediately M&A'd. We were told they loved their house more than they loved God, and were idolaters.
Another couple, WC grads and great personal friends of the BC, said they had devised a way to pay off their mortgage in its entirety in two years. Guess what! They kept the house AND their WC status!
Nice, huh?
WG
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chockfull
These people. What they say with their mouth and how they live in their life are so vastly different it's nauseating.
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Tzaia
Have you ever noticed how easy it is for someone who has no debts (because they live in someone else's house rent free and have everything bought for them) to talk about what's best for everyone else?
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Watered Garden
I remember LCM stating on a SNS tape that he had never owned a home and saw no reason why anyone else should. I thought "You never had to, you SOB! Mommy and daddy to jock dorm to a trail at HQ, to a paid-for apt in Oklahoma to Emporia to the castle in the woods. Everything paid for by our ABS." Of course he never had to own a home; everyone else paid for his room and board.
WG
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Tzaia
Which begs the question: (mustering up my best Dr. Phil inspired Texas twang) How's that werkin' fer ya now Craig?
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Bolshevik
can't they be sued if they do?
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shortfuse
I have assumed the same thing. However, apparently it's not the legal department keeping this policy in place. It's Rosalie.
LOTS of currently leadership including several region coordinators, presidents cabinet and others are not on board with this policy. And yet it persists.
It's seems to be just about control. To make the change now would be akin to admitting error, and they never do that for fear of weakening their position.
I agree some of the Corps and Advanced class grads have adopted their own "don't ask, don't tell" policy on debt. They figure it's none of their business in the first place and as such don't view it as being deceptive not to volunteer this information.
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TheHighWay
Actually, twi was still supporting him long after he left HQ. Perhaps he is finally on his own now, but I doubt it.
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Tzaia
That's pretty pathetic.
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Bolshevik
doesn't he work two jobs to support his kids? why would a cheap organization like twi support him?
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Bolshevik
well, vpw died of cancer and that didn't bother anyone. this is a new, dynamic church.
" . . . no, no, what we meant was a spiritual debt . . ."
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JustThinking
Do we know for sure that they policy is still in place?
JT
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RumRunner
Come on - one of you GSCers must live close to Toledo. Send us a pic of Rev. Forehead in his orange apron.
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shortfuse
Oh, it's in place alright. It's not something that is highlighted much, but it's there.
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Belle
By request:
JT, it is still in place. :( People have been beaten down so much that they don't have to yell about it anymore, but it is still there.
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JustThinking
Belle,
First of all... how you doin' beautiful?!!!
The orange apron slogan is "You can do it, we can help." Boy isn't that a switch! It sounds better than TWI: "You can do it. And you'll pay us to let you do it."
JT
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pawtucket
I've often wondered if he continues to get his way paid for.
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now I see
Hey, that pic looks like he has hair on the top of his head, I thought he was bald??? Â Maybe twi payed for hair plugs?
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Watered Garden
Honestly, I cannot imagine that he wouldn't have negotiated or been offered some kind of a severance package - I mean the guy had no experience doing anything other than preaching and yelling; I believe he had a psychology degree? And wouldn't he have to pay child support if he's divorced now? Believe me, I live in Ohio and my son is divorced from his first wife, and all it takes is one phone call if the support payment isn't deposited on time, and the payer's butt is slammer-bound.
Of course that's none of my business, I guess, but it would certainly be a reason to need more money than an entry level job would pay, unless the kids are all three independent by now.
WG
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TheHighWay
Oh, I don't think he negotiated a thing... but when he was removed from his throne he was most likely in the same (aggitated, depressed) frame of mind he was in the days after POP was read. My understanding is that he was put on antidepressants and watched very closely.
I think twi was smart enough to realize he knew where most of the skeletons were hidden, and they didn't want to risk the chance of offending him by cutting him off with nothing. He was placed in a city and in a home where the go-to-corps-doc could watch over him as closely as needed... it doesn't take much imagination to assume they paid his other expenses as well...
(edited for typos)
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