Unfortunately, doing "the work" was a requirement of the program.
I know. There were times when I emotionally wanted to do what some of you were doing - it seemed like such a good way to serve the Lord. Then I looked at the reality - people "equipped" by the organization to do little more than manual labor. People living little more beyond a hand-to-mouth existence due to commitments to the organization. People giving up good jobs and decent lifestyles in order to serve the organization. Honestly, I was amazed at how well people washed windows and emptied port-a-potties, but to do it for a living? I simply wasn't ready to give my life up for that, and fortunately my husband didn't want to do any more than what we were doing. At the time I felt like I didn't measure up and joked about where I would spend eternity in comparison to those who had truly given up all they had.
You remember a time before twi was in your life? Do you remember a difference in your mind?
assuming the soul exists for sake of discussion, what "piece" did they take? What does that mean?
this makes me think of way corps too much and i feel like that instead of talking about the discussion this is trying to get me to give out information "on demand" instead of me volunteering it as i feel comfortable, which when i put these two things together i think i am trying to be manipulated into something i don't like, so i will read for awhile all the terrific discussion and let things go for now.
I sure hope I haven't posted anything that made you feel that way. I wasn't real sure how to respond to your questions, so I just gave some examples of what happened to me and how it affected me then, and what changes I have noticed in my thoughts/attitudes/behaviors, i.e. son to grandson, that sort of thing.
Anyway, I hope you find some information in these posts/threads/forums that is helpful to you.
There are no rules here about what you "hafta, oughta, gotta" share.
You can say as much or as little as you choose. (Or just read if you want to.)
The one caveat I would add is that sometimes it's good to be a bit vague about specific names, places and that kinda stuff. The Way has people who monitor this site. Some folks aren't bothered by that and others are. Anyhow, I hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable with my ramblings. :)
hi watered garden and waysider, and no it wasn't anything but that one post i quoted, and it wasn't the person or anything like that, but just the way it made me feel, which is my problem not anybody else's. i like it when i tell something about me and then others tell something about them, like in real life maybe, but i am very uncomfortable when i have told something about me and then someone asks "deep" questions without offering something about themselves according to the already happening discussion. it's like interruppting the discussion to zero in on one person, which happened alot in group therapy and we were taught that that is inappropriate because a discussion is a 2 way street and nobody need to feel singled out. it is good stuff here and i like the discussions, so please don't stop the discussions about this stuff because it is good stuff that helps me think, so maybe others are thinking too, and maybe seeing things in a way they didn't see them before. and i know that it is not a "have to" here or anything like that, but it's just what i felt like reading that post, so i have to back away and think if i felt like that why did i feel like that, so it's just me.
this makes me think of way corps too much and i feel like that instead of talking about the discussion this is trying to get me to give out information "on demand" instead of me volunteering it as i feel comfortable, which when i put these two things together i think i am trying to be manipulated into something i don't like, so i will read for awhile all the terrific discussion and let things go for now.
some of us don't remember a time prior to twi, which is why i'm skeptical about your therapists theories.
some of us don't remember a time prior to twi, which is why i'm skeptical about your therapists theories.
forget I asked.
i have spent years working my way out of the insanity that was laid at my feet as early as preteen years for me, and i turned to professionals because after the way i knew that "arm chair help" was as helpful as using a strainer for an umbrella, so if you're skeptical of my thereapists theories i think that i was right in not responding to your questions because now i see that you were not asking them out of concern for me but out of being skeptical, which is a defense thing, and if i said anything you felt you needed to defend i'm sorry, but i was just talking from me and not thinking about anybody else except that maybe somebody could identify with some things i said and maybe feel like they could breathe a little easier or something. and how can i forget you asked? that's why even though they know it's wrong lawyers will say or ask things in court they aren't supposed to say or ask so that the jury will have it on their minds, so now that you've put it out there i can't forget, but i can and will ignore and not bring it up anymore.
Ironically, I actually heard the phrase "honeymoon phase" deliberately used in The Way as early as the early 1970's.
It was "explained" in "leadership training" sessions that we were supposed to make a deliberate effort to facilitate pleasant initial experiences for newbies because "the honeymoon phase" (sic) would eventually wear off. We were to watch for that to happen and use it as an opportunity to "explain" to the person that it was a sign they were growing beyond the milk of The Word and were ready for more of the meat.
So, the person (doing the "explaining" to the newbie) was actually the one being conditioned to accept this loss of artificial euphoria as an indicator of their own "spiritual growth". It was a sort of backdoor approach. Instead of simply addressing the situation in a one-on-one manner, they made the person being conditioned (the "leader in training") a third party observer.
This enabled the "leadership trainee" to rationalize their own loss of euphoria and abandon legitimate concern for reality.
And, that's only step #1!
A couple years later, I found myself in Fellow Laborers of Ohio (FLO), mopping floors at limb HQ. My efforts briefly caught the eye of some great and mighty Poobah from Int. HQ who happened to be passing through. He asked me if I was enjoying the work. My reply was that, while I didn't enjoy mopping floors, I found satisfaction in knowing my efforts would help visitors ready their minds for the meat of The Word. (I'd already been conditioned to step #1 at that stage.) To my surprise, the almighty passing Poobah launched into a butt chewing about how I was supposed to "renew my mind" to extracting pleasure from the task itself. In other words, I was to move on to step #2, which is to self delude yourself into trying to recapture "the honeymoon phase". He shook his head in feigned disgust and said " You just don't get it." as he turned and walked away.
i'm glad somebody besides me thinks this is a good topic because i sometimes wonder if it's just my damaged brain that thinks things like this are good things to talk about when it comes to talking about the way. chockfull what you said is better than how i was trying to explain things and thank you for saying it right. :) jeff it mkes me mad sometimes too, but being mad is often just the first emotion because being mad is a "safer" emotion especially when talking about the way or a way offshoot, because being mad was the only allowed emotion. i remember my brothers and sisters and mom would get real mad and red in the face and they would say it was "spiritual anger" and that a "devil spirit" around me would make them that angry at me for not renewing my mind, so calling it "spiritual anger" and blaming me was really a justification for their out of control rage. so what i've learned to do is look deeper into my anger and find out what i'm really feeling, because all those years of not being allowed to show my real feelings means that i often don't know what's really the underlying emotion, so maybe if you wanted to think about that when you feel anger then you might find out something more about you and maybe find another piece of what they way took, because that's what i think it's like is taking back another piece of my stolen soul, and that helps me do the work to look deeper even if it does feel bad.
Dear Brainfixed,
Let's see how you do with a round of "How many conversations at once." :) At least with this medium you can consider the matters in your own time.
When I first read your post concerning what do do concerning anger was think something like, " Why should I think about my anger, it seems to be working fairly well for me so-far."
Then I thought,"I would just get lost in myself and thinking about it could just numb me into some kind of inaction, instead of being able to deal with things at this site that rightly deserved anger.
Then I remember how a while back I shared with another poster that for me, anger can at times become enjoyable as a kind of emotional high, so-to-speak. Both sides of my family have a fairly pronounced anger type that seems to run in them. And if I had a full dose of both sides it would probably make me out of control.
Then I remembered that there was a scriptural saying about us being slow to anger.
Then I remembered another that exhorts us to not sin because of our anger.
Then I remembered another one in the neighborhood of the first one that reminds us that a man's anger does not produce righteoussness.
I'm not sure where all this is going, but in the mean time I may have to be content with my determination to evaluate the consequences of expressing my anger on those around me. You know, thinking to my self,"Now what did that produce in terms of fruit?" Of course having a friend or friends that might speak directly to that with me might help too.....duh.
But even though anger is a dangerous roll to get onto, I think that at times it can actually produce good things, just not nearly as often as we may like to think, pehaps.
And as I considered some of the things that move me toward anger I was surprised to find out that compassion and sorrow for the offenders (From my perspective only that is) was there too.
hi jeff. i spent all the time i have this morning on another thread, but i want to reply to what you said, but i don't have thime now, so i have to go, but when i have time i will reply better, ok?
sometimes i wonder if anybody understands that what happened in the way is seen by many mental health professionals as abuse, and by domestic violence professionals as classic abuser setup.
but why did i want to be "spiritual enough" anyway? because i was already trained to try harder to fix my parents and my family. see how it's all alike?
TWI was a haven for abusers and the abused. For the abused, TWI's dynamic was a source of comfort. For the abuser, TWI provided an outlet.
TWI placed a high value on conformity and being in the corp was the hallmark of conformity. Those who didn't choose that path had to find satisfaction in other ways, and that usually involved spending time socializing our children to conform to TWI "standards" of acceptable behavior, and doing penance in the form of unpaid labor for leadership and allowing them way too much access into our personal lives.
The mixed signals you got from your parents undoubtedly added to your psychic pain. I have no doubt that both parents were in a war of wills with you children squarely in the middle. I doubt if it's much consolation, but what went on with you is common in families with parents who have radical differences in religious beliefs and parenting practices. A lot of blame gets thrown around and the kids always lose.
i have some time now, so jeff i like what you're saying and that you're listening too, and you are right that if you had someone to talk with and work it through with then it would help, but i hope you don't think i was saying that you have "bad" anger or that anger is "bad" in any way because anger is a legitimate and valid thing that deserves its just place in life, so i was not saying anything about your anger or anger itself, i was just saying that anger masks other emotions alot of the time and it is just the first response alot of the time, but there might be more to what you're feeling than just the anger.
i quit trying to be "righteous" and that kind of stuff awhile ago because i quit being me when i tried to live up to standards that are usually impossible and are false if they are not from myself but from some high and lofty goal that i'm not sure i want to reach because it was a goal determined for me before i knew what i wanted in life. and even if i did want to reach some moral goal then i would reach it becaue i wanted to and not because i wanted to be "righteous" because to me "righteous" is a standard that is subjective to the person or group setting the standard and it doesn't work in life in general. i think about people that kill their children and think they are doing something "righteous" for their children, or about the way when being "righteous" meant kissing leadership's foot and smoking out homos and keeping a lock box on rape and that kind of stuff, so "righteous" doesn't mean anything real or good to me.
the high you talk about with anger is the emotional release from anxiety, at least for many people who get that high from anger, and it serves the purpose of the release, but it also serves to make people think that because they feel better they are better, so the reason for the anger and the possible underlying emotions are never addressed, so it becomes that the anger is the "fix", so then people will look for situations to get angry about or even make situations happen so they can get that release. i'm not saying that's what it is for you because i'm not your therapist or even know you at all, but i'm just saying it in general and if you think it has validity for you in any way then that's for you to figure out and probably not on this site because i wouldn't want to put something like that out here for god knows who to run with and maybe use against me somehow, but i just look deeper into myself concerning my anger because i have learned that i mask my other emotions with anger and the emotions i usually mask are fear, sorrow and shame, so you and i have that sorrow thing in common, so i get it.
Bol, do you have a problem with the concept of a self not defined by twi? one that people had to hide/suppress/deny in order to survive inside the walls of Zion?
i have some time now, so jeff i like what you're saying and that you're listening too, and you are right that if you had someone to talk with and work it through with then it would help, but i hope you don't think i was saying that you have "bad" anger or that anger is "bad" in any way because anger is a legitimate and valid thing that deserves its just place in life, so i was not saying anything about your anger or anger itself, i was just saying that anger masks other emotions alot of the time and it is just the first response alot of the time, but there might be more to what you're feeling than just the anger.
That's o.k. brainfixed, I did not take your response that way. But I appreciate you clarifying what you meant nevertheless because even though my first impression of you is that you are a stand-up person I've been around long enough to know that in spite of my impressions that might not be the case. And if you did by chance come back with some kind of "anger is always bad" kind of thinking...well...then we might have had to take the conversation in that direction for a little bit, huh?
i quit trying to be "righteous" and that kind of stuff awhile ago because i quit being me when i tried to live up to standards that are usually impossible and are false if they are not from myself but from some high and lofty goal that i'm not sure i want to reach because it was a goal determined for me before i knew what i wanted in life. and even if i did want to reach some moral goal then i would reach it becaue i wanted to and not because i wanted to be "righteous" because to me "righteous" is a standard that is subjective to the person or group setting the standard and it doesn't work in life in general. i think about people that kill their children and think they are doing something "righteous" for their children, or about the way when being "righteous" meant kissing leadership's foot and smoking out homos and keeping a lock box on rape and that kind of stuff, so "righteous" doesn't mean anything real or good to me.
T'so.k. with me, I won't give you any flak about feeling like that at all, not here or anywhere. For me, these things need to flow out from our insides like a river of cool, clear water to be worth anything anyway. And even though our basic worldviews about these biblical topics seem vastly different it seems that we do agree about the very same things as it pertains to TWI history, at least as it pertains to your last paragraph.
the high you talk about with anger is the emotional release from anxiety, at least for many people who get that high from anger, and it serves the purpose of the release, but it also serves to make people think that because they feel better they are better, so the reason for the anger and the possible underlying emotions are never addressed, so it becomes that the anger is the "fix", so then people will look for situations to get angry about or even make situations happen so they can get that release. i'm not saying that's what it is for you because i'm not your therapist or even know you at all, but i'm just saying it in general and if you think it has validity for you in any way then that's for you to figure out and probably not on this site because i wouldn't want to put something like that out here for god knows who to run with and maybe use against me somehow, but i just look deeper into myself concerning my anger because i have learned that i mask my other emotions with anger and the emotions i usually mask are fear, sorrow and shame, so you and i have that sorrow thing in common, so i get it.
I think it is great that you give the the same space to work these things out for myself that I would give to you. If you ever feel like you are being tread on here at the Greasespot cafe, the mods have had a good history of stopping it IMO if necessary. But then dealing with such things is more or less a regular part of life to....
Take care and God bless,
JEFF
p.s. Your warning may prove valid at some point, but I've already seen a teeney little bit of that in my life already, and it was very up close and personal then. Relatively speaking, the Greasespot is a piece of cake.
Bol, do you have a problem with the concept of a self not defined by twi? one that people had to hide/suppress/deny in order to survive inside the walls of Zion?
twi never defined "soul", at least it didn't make any sense. One must conclude it doesn't really exist.
I can understand a former self, if you came to twi. Otherwise, twi is yourself, and that's what must be suppressed.
Perhaps that's what we all seek post-TWI - the real me. I used to be quite honest, but I learned to keep my mouth shut and do as I am told. That's starting to loosen up a little bit. I still fear any kind of personal entanglement with a church-type organization - our community group leader keeps talking about really getting to know each other within the group, and I think that's scary, for me anyway.
i am spending too much time thinking about this place and the issues it raises for me, so i'm going to back off for awhile and find other things to do.
twi never defined "soul", at least it didn't make any sense. One must conclude it doesn't really exist.
I can understand a former self, if you came to twi. Otherwise, twi is yourself, and that's what must be suppressed.
Really? An individual cannot distinguish himself from the TWI he was raised in? All his thoughts, beliefs, actions emotions etc are lock step with TWI?
The best they can hope for is to suppress their twi nature? No healing, no growth, no understanding, no escape?
Interesting.
Is that what you are doing, Bolshevik? Suppressing?
Really? An individual cannot distinguish himself from the TWI he was raised in? All his thoughts, beliefs, actions emotions etc are lock step with TWI?
The best they can hope for is to suppress their twi nature? No healing, no growth, no understanding, no escape?
Interesting.
Is that what you are doing, Bolshevik? Suppressing?
how many times do you see people becoming like their parents even when they don't want to?
could you ever stop acting like you came from the culture you were raised in?
Since we're talking about behavior modification, I wanted to add a few things from the perspective of the cognitive behaviorist angle of psychology. The reason I want to do so is that it touches upon "anger" that is currently being discussed, and it also touches on "self". Also, personally I feel that elements of that approach have helped me take control over my response to these types of things and have helped me to define where I want my future to go.
You can view the field of behavior modification as a continuous application of stimulous / response. The easiest example to think of is Pavlov's dog - the famous case. Ring a bell, then set out food for the dog. Over time, just ringing the bell causes the dog to salivate. That is classic stimulous / response.
Humans as thinking entities have the ability to inject conscious thought and decision-making into the stimulous / response cycle. We cannot control the stimulous - the influence of the external world upon ourselves, but we can control our response. One way to look at "self" is that space in between stimulous and response for the thinking individual. The cognitive thought that evaluates the stimulous and rationally decides where to go and what action to take. What is "the real me"? That space where I decide who I want to be, how I want to act, and thus how to respond.
Responses can be classified into three areas: aggressive, assertive, and passive. Many times "anger" can be looked on as simply an aggressive response to stimulous. This may or may not be appropriate or rational. You can look on an individual stimulous from a scale of 1 to 10 in intensity. Then you can look at the response from a scale of 1 to 10. A 10 stimulous and a 1 response is passive. A 1 stimulous and a 10 response is aggressive. More in the middle is the assertive response. A response that is thought through cognitively and appropriate to the stimulous is generally considered a more healthy response.
How does all this fit in to behavior modification and TWI? TWI, and probably all such groups that use authority to abuse, conditions a passive response. They expect a passive response. They reward a passive response. A passive response is compliance and conformity. They use a particularly passive definition of obedience (hupotasso definition, anyone?) that talks about cognitive thought but tolerates none of it. They attack both aggressive responses and assertive responses. The thing they can tolerate the least is a thinking individual armed with the scriptures standing up for themselves in an assertive fashion.
The result of this is an individual conditioned to passive responses. And leadership that is trained to produce that in others. Since this is very unhealthy - typically associated with a victim in an abuse situation, long periods of extended passiveness under an abusive stimulous eventually usually results in a person bagging emotions in an unhealthy fashion, and then unloading them in usually an inappropriate response (the aggressive response - a 10 response to a 1 stimulous). Have you ever just "blew up" at a loved one without any rational reason? Or experienced the "kick the dog" syndrome? Many people feel ashamed at that, however very few can trace it back to a pattern of conditioned passive responses. TWI and abusive leadership uses the irrationality of this type of response to further condition passive responses. "Why are you so angry?" "It was just a simple request" "I did nothing to deserve this kind of response".
The healthy way out of this type of cycle is to take charge of conscious rational thought and start to plan out assertive types of responses that are appropriate to the stimulous and reflect the values you wish to preserve. Respond as "the real me". Take back your own life. Take back your own values. Interesting - remember VPW's attempt at ethics? Lifestyle of a Believer? Yes, I'm aware of the irony. One statement in there however is very true - "no man is the means to another man's end". Yet in TWI with spiritually abusive leadership and the cycle of conditioned passive response, functionally exactly the opposite is produced. Every person becomes the means to another's end - endless cycles of using people to preserve little "fiefdoms" of abusive leadership.
So to me, looking at "anger" and "the true self" is most valuable when evaluated within the context of looking at a larger pattern of behavior. Examine a man or woman within their environment to understand.
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Tzaia
I know. There were times when I emotionally wanted to do what some of you were doing - it seemed like such a good way to serve the Lord. Then I looked at the reality - people "equipped" by the organiz
Tzaia
TWI was a haven for abusers and the abused. For the abused, TWI's dynamic was a source of comfort. For the abuser, TWI provided an outlet. TWI placed a high value on conformity and being in the corp
Bolshevik
there it is agian :blink:
Tzaia
I know. There were times when I emotionally wanted to do what some of you were doing - it seemed like such a good way to serve the Lord. Then I looked at the reality - people "equipped" by the organization to do little more than manual labor. People living little more beyond a hand-to-mouth existence due to commitments to the organization. People giving up good jobs and decent lifestyles in order to serve the organization. Honestly, I was amazed at how well people washed windows and emptied port-a-potties, but to do it for a living? I simply wasn't ready to give my life up for that, and fortunately my husband didn't want to do any more than what we were doing. At the time I felt like I didn't measure up and joked about where I would spend eternity in comparison to those who had truly given up all they had.
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brainfixed
this makes me think of way corps too much and i feel like that instead of talking about the discussion this is trying to get me to give out information "on demand" instead of me volunteering it as i feel comfortable, which when i put these two things together i think i am trying to be manipulated into something i don't like, so i will read for awhile all the terrific discussion and let things go for now.
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Watered Garden
I sure hope I haven't posted anything that made you feel that way. I wasn't real sure how to respond to your questions, so I just gave some examples of what happened to me and how it affected me then, and what changes I have noticed in my thoughts/attitudes/behaviors, i.e. son to grandson, that sort of thing.
Anyway, I hope you find some information in these posts/threads/forums that is helpful to you.
Have a wonderful Sunday afternoon!
WG
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waysider
Hey there, brainfixed
There are no rules here about what you "hafta, oughta, gotta" share.
You can say as much or as little as you choose. (Or just read if you want to.)
The one caveat I would add is that sometimes it's good to be a bit vague about specific names, places and that kinda stuff. The Way has people who monitor this site. Some folks aren't bothered by that and others are. Anyhow, I hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable with my ramblings. :)
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brainfixed
hi watered garden and waysider, and no it wasn't anything but that one post i quoted, and it wasn't the person or anything like that, but just the way it made me feel, which is my problem not anybody else's. i like it when i tell something about me and then others tell something about them, like in real life maybe, but i am very uncomfortable when i have told something about me and then someone asks "deep" questions without offering something about themselves according to the already happening discussion. it's like interruppting the discussion to zero in on one person, which happened alot in group therapy and we were taught that that is inappropriate because a discussion is a 2 way street and nobody need to feel singled out. it is good stuff here and i like the discussions, so please don't stop the discussions about this stuff because it is good stuff that helps me think, so maybe others are thinking too, and maybe seeing things in a way they didn't see them before. and i know that it is not a "have to" here or anything like that, but it's just what i felt like reading that post, so i have to back away and think if i felt like that why did i feel like that, so it's just me.
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Watered Garden
And you have every right to feel that way, you can be YOU on this site and don't think a thing about it!
Enjoy your day!
WG
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Bolshevik
some of us don't remember a time prior to twi, which is why i'm skeptical about your therapists theories.
forget I asked.
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brainfixed
i have spent years working my way out of the insanity that was laid at my feet as early as preteen years for me, and i turned to professionals because after the way i knew that "arm chair help" was as helpful as using a strainer for an umbrella, so if you're skeptical of my thereapists theories i think that i was right in not responding to your questions because now i see that you were not asking them out of concern for me but out of being skeptical, which is a defense thing, and if i said anything you felt you needed to defend i'm sorry, but i was just talking from me and not thinking about anybody else except that maybe somebody could identify with some things i said and maybe feel like they could breathe a little easier or something. and how can i forget you asked? that's why even though they know it's wrong lawyers will say or ask things in court they aren't supposed to say or ask so that the jury will have it on their minds, so now that you've put it out there i can't forget, but i can and will ignore and not bring it up anymore.
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Bolshevik
no no, I wasn't trying to help you. I have no help to offer.
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Bolshevik
have you identified more steps than 2?
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JeffSjo
Dear Brainfixed,
Let's see how you do with a round of "How many conversations at once." :) At least with this medium you can consider the matters in your own time.
When I first read your post concerning what do do concerning anger was think something like, " Why should I think about my anger, it seems to be working fairly well for me so-far."
Then I thought,"I would just get lost in myself and thinking about it could just numb me into some kind of inaction, instead of being able to deal with things at this site that rightly deserved anger.
Then I remember how a while back I shared with another poster that for me, anger can at times become enjoyable as a kind of emotional high, so-to-speak. Both sides of my family have a fairly pronounced anger type that seems to run in them. And if I had a full dose of both sides it would probably make me out of control.
Then I remembered that there was a scriptural saying about us being slow to anger.
Then I remembered another that exhorts us to not sin because of our anger.
Then I remembered another one in the neighborhood of the first one that reminds us that a man's anger does not produce righteoussness.
I'm not sure where all this is going, but in the mean time I may have to be content with my determination to evaluate the consequences of expressing my anger on those around me. You know, thinking to my self,"Now what did that produce in terms of fruit?" Of course having a friend or friends that might speak directly to that with me might help too.....duh.
But even though anger is a dangerous roll to get onto, I think that at times it can actually produce good things, just not nearly as often as we may like to think, pehaps.
And as I considered some of the things that move me toward anger I was surprised to find out that compassion and sorrow for the offenders (From my perspective only that is) was there too.
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brainfixed
hi jeff. i spent all the time i have this morning on another thread, but i want to reply to what you said, but i don't have thime now, so i have to go, but when i have time i will reply better, ok?
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Tzaia
TWI was a haven for abusers and the abused. For the abused, TWI's dynamic was a source of comfort. For the abuser, TWI provided an outlet.
TWI placed a high value on conformity and being in the corp was the hallmark of conformity. Those who didn't choose that path had to find satisfaction in other ways, and that usually involved spending time socializing our children to conform to TWI "standards" of acceptable behavior, and doing penance in the form of unpaid labor for leadership and allowing them way too much access into our personal lives.
The mixed signals you got from your parents undoubtedly added to your psychic pain. I have no doubt that both parents were in a war of wills with you children squarely in the middle. I doubt if it's much consolation, but what went on with you is common in families with parents who have radical differences in religious beliefs and parenting practices. A lot of blame gets thrown around and the kids always lose.
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brainfixed
i have some time now, so jeff i like what you're saying and that you're listening too, and you are right that if you had someone to talk with and work it through with then it would help, but i hope you don't think i was saying that you have "bad" anger or that anger is "bad" in any way because anger is a legitimate and valid thing that deserves its just place in life, so i was not saying anything about your anger or anger itself, i was just saying that anger masks other emotions alot of the time and it is just the first response alot of the time, but there might be more to what you're feeling than just the anger.
i quit trying to be "righteous" and that kind of stuff awhile ago because i quit being me when i tried to live up to standards that are usually impossible and are false if they are not from myself but from some high and lofty goal that i'm not sure i want to reach because it was a goal determined for me before i knew what i wanted in life. and even if i did want to reach some moral goal then i would reach it becaue i wanted to and not because i wanted to be "righteous" because to me "righteous" is a standard that is subjective to the person or group setting the standard and it doesn't work in life in general. i think about people that kill their children and think they are doing something "righteous" for their children, or about the way when being "righteous" meant kissing leadership's foot and smoking out homos and keeping a lock box on rape and that kind of stuff, so "righteous" doesn't mean anything real or good to me.
the high you talk about with anger is the emotional release from anxiety, at least for many people who get that high from anger, and it serves the purpose of the release, but it also serves to make people think that because they feel better they are better, so the reason for the anger and the possible underlying emotions are never addressed, so it becomes that the anger is the "fix", so then people will look for situations to get angry about or even make situations happen so they can get that release. i'm not saying that's what it is for you because i'm not your therapist or even know you at all, but i'm just saying it in general and if you think it has validity for you in any way then that's for you to figure out and probably not on this site because i wouldn't want to put something like that out here for god knows who to run with and maybe use against me somehow, but i just look deeper into myself concerning my anger because i have learned that i mask my other emotions with anger and the emotions i usually mask are fear, sorrow and shame, so you and i have that sorrow thing in common, so i get it.
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Bolshevik
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brainfixed
i don't get what "it" is and what is the deal with "it" anyway?
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potato
Bol, do you have a problem with the concept of a self not defined by twi? one that people had to hide/suppress/deny in order to survive inside the walls of Zion?
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JeffSjo
That's o.k. brainfixed, I did not take your response that way. But I appreciate you clarifying what you meant nevertheless because even though my first impression of you is that you are a stand-up person I've been around long enough to know that in spite of my impressions that might not be the case. And if you did by chance come back with some kind of "anger is always bad" kind of thinking...well...then we might have had to take the conversation in that direction for a little bit, huh?
T'so.k. with me, I won't give you any flak about feeling like that at all, not here or anywhere. For me, these things need to flow out from our insides like a river of cool, clear water to be worth anything anyway. And even though our basic worldviews about these biblical topics seem vastly different it seems that we do agree about the very same things as it pertains to TWI history, at least as it pertains to your last paragraph.
I think it is great that you give the the same space to work these things out for myself that I would give to you. If you ever feel like you are being tread on here at the Greasespot cafe, the mods have had a good history of stopping it IMO if necessary. But then dealing with such things is more or less a regular part of life to....
Take care and God bless,
JEFF
p.s. Your warning may prove valid at some point, but I've already seen a teeney little bit of that in my life already, and it was very up close and personal then. Relatively speaking, the Greasespot is a piece of cake.
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Bolshevik
twi never defined "soul", at least it didn't make any sense. One must conclude it doesn't really exist.
I can understand a former self, if you came to twi. Otherwise, twi is yourself, and that's what must be suppressed.
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Watered Garden
Perhaps that's what we all seek post-TWI - the real me. I used to be quite honest, but I learned to keep my mouth shut and do as I am told. That's starting to loosen up a little bit. I still fear any kind of personal entanglement with a church-type organization - our community group leader keeps talking about really getting to know each other within the group, and I think that's scary, for me anyway.
WG
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brainfixed
i am spending too much time thinking about this place and the issues it raises for me, so i'm going to back off for awhile and find other things to do.
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Bramble
Really? An individual cannot distinguish himself from the TWI he was raised in? All his thoughts, beliefs, actions emotions etc are lock step with TWI?
The best they can hope for is to suppress their twi nature? No healing, no growth, no understanding, no escape?
Interesting.
Is that what you are doing, Bolshevik? Suppressing?
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Bolshevik
how many times do you see people becoming like their parents even when they don't want to?
could you ever stop acting like you came from the culture you were raised in?
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chockfull
Since we're talking about behavior modification, I wanted to add a few things from the perspective of the cognitive behaviorist angle of psychology. The reason I want to do so is that it touches upon "anger" that is currently being discussed, and it also touches on "self". Also, personally I feel that elements of that approach have helped me take control over my response to these types of things and have helped me to define where I want my future to go.
You can view the field of behavior modification as a continuous application of stimulous / response. The easiest example to think of is Pavlov's dog - the famous case. Ring a bell, then set out food for the dog. Over time, just ringing the bell causes the dog to salivate. That is classic stimulous / response.
Humans as thinking entities have the ability to inject conscious thought and decision-making into the stimulous / response cycle. We cannot control the stimulous - the influence of the external world upon ourselves, but we can control our response. One way to look at "self" is that space in between stimulous and response for the thinking individual. The cognitive thought that evaluates the stimulous and rationally decides where to go and what action to take. What is "the real me"? That space where I decide who I want to be, how I want to act, and thus how to respond.
Responses can be classified into three areas: aggressive, assertive, and passive. Many times "anger" can be looked on as simply an aggressive response to stimulous. This may or may not be appropriate or rational. You can look on an individual stimulous from a scale of 1 to 10 in intensity. Then you can look at the response from a scale of 1 to 10. A 10 stimulous and a 1 response is passive. A 1 stimulous and a 10 response is aggressive. More in the middle is the assertive response. A response that is thought through cognitively and appropriate to the stimulous is generally considered a more healthy response.
How does all this fit in to behavior modification and TWI? TWI, and probably all such groups that use authority to abuse, conditions a passive response. They expect a passive response. They reward a passive response. A passive response is compliance and conformity. They use a particularly passive definition of obedience (hupotasso definition, anyone?) that talks about cognitive thought but tolerates none of it. They attack both aggressive responses and assertive responses. The thing they can tolerate the least is a thinking individual armed with the scriptures standing up for themselves in an assertive fashion.
The result of this is an individual conditioned to passive responses. And leadership that is trained to produce that in others. Since this is very unhealthy - typically associated with a victim in an abuse situation, long periods of extended passiveness under an abusive stimulous eventually usually results in a person bagging emotions in an unhealthy fashion, and then unloading them in usually an inappropriate response (the aggressive response - a 10 response to a 1 stimulous). Have you ever just "blew up" at a loved one without any rational reason? Or experienced the "kick the dog" syndrome? Many people feel ashamed at that, however very few can trace it back to a pattern of conditioned passive responses. TWI and abusive leadership uses the irrationality of this type of response to further condition passive responses. "Why are you so angry?" "It was just a simple request" "I did nothing to deserve this kind of response".
The healthy way out of this type of cycle is to take charge of conscious rational thought and start to plan out assertive types of responses that are appropriate to the stimulous and reflect the values you wish to preserve. Respond as "the real me". Take back your own life. Take back your own values. Interesting - remember VPW's attempt at ethics? Lifestyle of a Believer? Yes, I'm aware of the irony. One statement in there however is very true - "no man is the means to another man's end". Yet in TWI with spiritually abusive leadership and the cycle of conditioned passive response, functionally exactly the opposite is produced. Every person becomes the means to another's end - endless cycles of using people to preserve little "fiefdoms" of abusive leadership.
So to me, looking at "anger" and "the true self" is most valuable when evaluated within the context of looking at a larger pattern of behavior. Examine a man or woman within their environment to understand.
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