I've seen the likenesses betweeen an abusive family relationships and my splinter group experiences too, and I think you make a very good and valid comparison. My splinter group I share a lot about in the "My Story" section and if you click on the arrows at the top of my quotes you will go back to the original thread that they came from. If you don't feel like doing that it's perfectly fine with me. But all quoted texts are just like that here, just click on the little arrow at the top to see the original thread that they came from.
And for many people here there seemed to be a hand in hand type relationship between abusive families and Way International abuse.
welcome to GS, brainfixed. excellent first post. twi was the best place for abusers to hang out, and twi encouraged, even required abusive behavior from people who weren't already screwed up. the mental health professionals I've spoken with all agree that twi culture is extremely abusive.
thanks for the welcomes, and for the replies. jeff that's alot of reading, and alot to take in, so i have to take my time with it. it took me a long time to get up the courage to post here because i don't want to sound like a victim, but that is exactly what i was, until i learned how to stop it, but i was already too old to really help what had already happened, but now i keep trying everyday to ask myself what i am thinking and feeling and why i am thinking and feeling those things. i have to get my brain fixed. (get it? haha)
"victim mentality" is something that sounds like a choice, but is really a behavior modification produced by years of abuse. it trains people how to shut up about the abuse, how to go into denial of the terror and unreality of it all, how to think that it's all "normal", and how to hide it all with a smile and an "excuse". "victim mentality" is trained into a person. so i learned that to admit that i was victim is not the same as saying that i chose to be a victim. how could i choose when i didn't know better even if i am over 30 years old?
That is an amazing and enlightening observation! Thanks for posting!
WG
thank you, but i did not learn this from observation or come up with it all by myself, my therapist showed it to me. she also showed me some of the things the way used to modify my behavior, like "believing equals receiving" is really a behavior modification tool that teaches the victim (of the behavior modification) to think that whatever happens to the victim is the victim's fault, and "renewed mind" reinforces the fault of the victim and teaches the victim "fix" their brain (get it? haha) to accept the fault put on their shoulders and to "excuse" the ones putting it on their shoulders because it all happened because the victim believed it to happen, so who's fault is it. when someone does this for years and years and even decades, they have learned that they must accept whatever happens to them because it is their fault. and when something like gang rape happens to a person who has been modified in this way and has learned that they are "blessing" some man who is their superior (husbands and leadership and bosses), then even though the whole world may "know better", some who's behavior has been modified to sublimate and negate and deny what their inner gut is telling them will "choose" to go along with it to avoid the worse abuse for not going along with it all. it's still a choice, right? no, because when someone is given a choice after years and even decades of behavior modification, they can't make any choice except for what the behavior modification trained them to make.
"right" and "wrong" are subject to what somebody was taught is "right" or "wrong". people may think it' obvious to anybody that murder is wrong, but why are there so many murders, then? people may think it's obvious that having group sex is wrong and that anybody involved in group sex is involved by choice, but why do the courts recognize spouse rape and date rape? it doesn't always take the threat of death to make somebody do something they don't really want to do. usually it just takes years and even decades of conditioning via behavior modification. people know that children are not "asking for it" and do not "enjoy" being molested because children are not expected to have the capacity to understand what is really going on. well, though, it has been proven over and over again that even grown up people over 30 years old or older that have been conditioned via behavior modification don't have the capacity to understand what is really going on.
i'm sorry this is so long, but this is new to me to talk about it with anybody besides my therapists and it seems to all come out like a flood.
i'm sorry this is so long, but this is new to me to talk about it with anybody besides my therapists and it seems to all come out like a flood.
don't be sorry, let loose as much as you like, just be aware that twi monitors what we write.
I'm pretty much in your shoes. not many outside can relate to what our lives were like, and it takes awhile before it feels ok to bring it up, as if it were a simple fact instead of a looming nightmare. I've heard it's really difficult for people who've been incarcerated a long time to adjust to life outside of prison. I think for a lot of us, it's the same type of adjustment. I still feel really disconnected from people. it's really hard to trust them, or take anyone at face value. it gets better a little at a time.
(don't let garth see this thread ;) he doesn't believe one can wash a brain)
--
Oh you can wash it alright. (Done so many times when I was shampooing. ... Wound up losing a lot of my hair over the years tho. :blink: )
It's just a b*tch to dry.
---
But in all seriousness, at the risk of being portrayed as an ((drum roll)) e-v-i-l Way ((GASP)) *apologist* (woman screams in the background) ... (I _did_ say 'in all seriousness', didn't I? ;) )
From my, admittedly amateur, observations/reading/thinking from an independent stance, the concept of 'mind control' (at least of the 'Manchurian Candidate' variety) isn't as widespread as many people would like to think. And without trying to dig out all of my posts on which I pontificate/pi** some people off on the matter, I'll condense what I've found into the following points:
1) Has mind control been actually medically, professionally, and clinically defined/diagnosed? From what I've seen, it has been a 'hit and miss' approach, ... _at best_.
2) Has mind control theories been (note the following-->) peer review level scientifically scrutinized, and that by _independent_ psychological professionals in that field. To the point where they prove said mind control theories? From what I've seen, that point hasn't been anywhere *near* reached.
3) How _selective_ has the mind control theory been applied to one group (you know, the 'cults'?) and not to others (the more mainstream perhaps?) even when dealing with the same 'cultic behavior'?
4) Some items on a few lists (like Lifton's) I have problems with. Examples as:
a) terms like 'love bombing', where affections are referred to as a tool in the application of 'mind control'. Hhmmmm, s-o-o, how is that distinctive from other applications of the same kind of affection, and where _that_ isn't a form of 'mind control'?
b) or how about this little jewel? "Loading the terminology". Where 'cults' take words like 'available', believing', 'renew your minds', and the like, and where somehow the term is redefined to mean something different, or is used a different way, and the process of 'mind control' continues because of it. Do tell? Well, first off, the English language is the most ambiguous language on the face of the planet. It is, almost by its very nature -- re-definable. Also, you know why I find 'loading the terminology' so damn ironic? Because the same anti-cult activists who decry that vile practice, ... well, they practice it themselves. Sure they do. --- The term 'cult' itself. Yes, the way they use the term cult IS a 'loading of the terminology'. How? Before the late 60's-early 70's, the term 'cult' was _neutral_ in meaning and usage. "Cult - (n) People who are followers of an idea, person, or thing." Notice how _neutral_ that is. Nowadays when people talk about cults (with the exception of its celebrity usage; "Rocky Horror Picture show's cult fans" for example), they use a term that has been twisted, changed, ... loaded, I daresay, from its original meaning. ... Like I said, ironic. <_<
How about that for a critic's synopsis regarding the 'brainwashing' issue, hmmmm?
Oh you can wash it alright. (Done so many times when I was shampooing. ... Wound up losing a lot of my hair over the years tho. :blink: )
It's just a b*tch to dry.
---
But in all seriousness, at the risk of being portrayed as an ((drum roll)) e-v-i-l Way ((GASP)) *apologist* (woman screams in the background) ... (I _did_ say 'in all seriousness', didn't I? ;) )
From my, admittedly amateur, observations/reading/thinking from an independent stance, the concept of 'mind control' (at least of the 'Manchurian Candidate' variety) isn't as widespread as many people would like to think. And without trying to dig out all of my posts on which I pontificate/pi** some people off on the matter, I'll condense what I've found into the following points:
1) Has mind control been actually medically, professionally, and clinically defined/diagnosed? From what I've seen, it has been a 'hit and miss' approach, ... _at best_.
2) Has mind control theories been (note the following-->) peer review level scientifically scrutinized, and that by _independent_ psychological professionals in that field. To the point where they prove said mind control theories? From what I've seen, that point hasn't been anywhere *near* reached.
3) How _selective_ has the mind control theory been applied to one group (you know, the 'cults'?) and not to others (the more mainstream perhaps?) even when dealing with the same 'cultic behavior'?
4) Some items on a few lists (like Lifton's) I have problems with. Examples as:
a) terms like 'love bombing', where affections are referred to as a tool in the application of 'mind control'. Hhmmmm, s-o-o, how is that distinctive from other applications of the same kind of affection, and where _that_ isn't a form of 'mind control'?
b) or how about this little jewel? "Loading the terminology". Where 'cults' take words like 'available', believing', 'renew your minds', and the like, and where somehow the term is redefined to mean something different, or is used a different way, and the process of 'mind control' continues because of it. Do tell? Well, first off, the English language is the most ambiguous language on the face of the planet. It is, almost by its very nature -- re-definable. Also, you know why I find 'loading the terminology' so damn ironic? Because the same anti-cult activists who decry that vile practice, ... well, they practice it themselves. Sure they do. --- The term 'cult' itself. Yes, the way they use the term cult IS a 'loading of the terminology'. How? Before the late 60's-early 70's, the term 'cult' was _neutral_ in meaning and usage. "Cult - (n) People who are followers of an idea, person, or thing." Notice how _neutral_ that is. Nowadays when people talk about cults (with the exception of its celebrity usage; "Rocky Horror Picture show's cult fans" for example), they use a term that has been twisted, changed, ... loaded, I daresay, from its original meaning. ... Like I said, ironic. <_<
How about that for a critic's synopsis regarding the 'brainwashing' issue, hmmmm?
it took me awhile to think this through how i feel and think about it from me and not just from my warped experiences reactions, so i'm glad i have a couple of days off or i would fidget all day at work tomorrow thinking about this in my brain or fall asleep at work because i fidgeted all night about this. i'm not sure if you're being funny or not garth because it comes across to me as maybe both tongue in cheek and serious, so i don't really know, but you bring up things that i've heard many times before, so i think it's good to talk about them.
i'm not really talking about the way and whether or not it was a cult or anything like that because as you point out the "cult" label can fit anything that's organized. i'm talking about how the way was very much like an abusive relationship, and i put "brainwashing" in the title because alot of people don't know that's what they mean when they say "behavior modification". like alot of people seem to think that "brainwashing" is some thing done in a back alley and "behavior modification" is done in some sterile psych ward or rehab center to houswives addicted to prescription pills like valium and hydrocodone and starlets addicted to meth and alcohol.
but behavior modification is something everybody does to everybody else everyday. believe it or not that's how society functions at it's root. raising children is one big behavior modification journey for both the parents and the children if you think about it. what happens when you're flying down the interstate at 85mph or more and suddenly see a cop alongside? well, you slow down, don't you? that's a result of behavior modification either because you're afriad you might get stopped and you've heard horror stories about fines and jail and all that, or because you've been there and done thate one too many times and have learned your lesson. now if you had never speeded in your life then you wouldn't have been speeding in the first place, so since you're speeding in the first place, you have to think if you should modify your behavior. see? but if you're the type that just flies along without regard to what's around you and you don't give a flip about the cop, oh well, then that's a whole different psych thing besides behavior modification. haha
so what i'm trying to say is that behavior modification is not good or bad, it just is. but on the subject of how a victim is made, then behavior modification is bad. see? and the "love bombing" is very much a part of the behavior modification an abuser uses on a victim, but it is clinically known as "the honeymoon phase" in the cycle of violence. alot of people don't know that the honeymoon phase is a part of the violence. it is the place where the behavior modification takes root in the mind of the victim which is why the cops and anybody else who asks an abused wife why she stays she says "because i love him". and the abuser knows this in his gut, but he may not understand that he knows this, it's just a part of what he knows he needs to do to keep the victim in a "willing" state to be the victim. but he's just buttering her up and he knows it, but he doesn't play it like that at all. he plays it like he made a huge mistake and look how good he's being and shouldn't that count for something? and he may even believe it himself during the honeymoon phase. but don't think for one minute that during the explosion/violence phase he isn't thinking that when it's all over he'll just butter her up again. and that is how the way was like an abusive relationship for me.
but yes the professional circle certainly has "defined/diagnosed" mind control, but it's not what the way called "hookey pooh" and all that "possession" and "devil spirit" stuff, but it's behavior modification to the maximum limit. haven't you ever heard of "battered woman's syndrome" or "stockholm syndrome"? those are actual sub-diagnoses and are recognized as such in the legal arenas as well as in the psychological professions. but i'm not a professional anything but have been told these things by professionals who have helped me, so maybe i got it wrong, but i don't think so, but i will ask. i think maybe i'd better go to bed now. haha
Good stuff. I have a couple things to add from talking things over with friends who work in psychology fields regarding behavior modification. A common tactic is to make the changes or concessions to behavior small and many. So the abuser asks for just a small concession to make them happy. "Just do this for me - it's not much to ask". Then when the victim grows comfortable with that, another small request. Over time, these small concessions turn into a huge deviation from what a person would normally out of common sense agree to from a simple moral perspective or a perspective that puts one's self and family at the center of decisions. But the brunt of the requests are never to go from the norm to the outer extremes, it's incremental. "Well, it's just a small change". This is the unhealthy cycle of abuse where the abuser bends the victim more and more to their will and the victim justifies it.
In TWI, this behavior modification centers around the political structure of the organization. Politics and bribery drive TWI. The bribery has financial components, and even more emotional components. This is in direct contrast to a healthy service from love perspective. TWI has moved away from "It Is Written" as a standard for their leadership to "It Is Position". It very much has turned exactly into what VP used to criticize about the Catholic church - their priorities are 1) Pope speaking ex-cathedra 2) Traditions of the church 3) The Bible. And with the priority being such, this basically discounts any God-inspired individual armed with the scriptures from being able to speak up about any practices. As what the Bible says matters less than how it fits in to traditions and traditional decisions, and all of that has to be checked with the one in power speaking ex-cathedra.
It results in things you see today - like teachers at an Advanced Class Special teaching at a dull and dumbed down 3rd grade perspective, the mind-numbing articles in magazines all that are less challenging than an average Sunday school class for middle schoolers in chuch. People never speaking up. Scriptures being ignored and brushed off with phrases like "we're not working that topic now". And this behavior is modeled all the way throughout the organization to various degrees. You may have some variation in the ego and despotism that some local leader functions with, but to maintain their little local fiefdom they conform that way upwards, and eventually downwards too.
It's all just one huge ball of Pharisees and vipers - something to pray to God to be delivered from - like 2 Thess 3:2 speaks of - to be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men.
It's all just one huge ball of Pharisees and vipers - something to pray to God to be delivered from - like 2 Thess 3:2 speaks of - to be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men.
thanks for the welcomes, and for the replies. jeff that's alot of reading, and alot to take in, so i have to take my time with it. it took me a long time to get up the courage to post here because i don't want to sound like a victim, but that is exactly what i was, until i learned how to stop it, but i was already too old to really help what had already happened, but now i keep trying everyday to ask myself what i am thinking and feeling and why i am thinking and feeling those things. i have to get my brain fixed. (get it? haha)
"victim mentality" is something that sounds like a choice, but is really a behavior modification produced by years of abuse. it trains people how to shut up about the abuse, how to go into denial of the terror and unreality of it all, how to think that it's all "normal", and how to hide it all with a smile and an "excuse". "victim mentality" is trained into a person. so i learned that to admit that i was victim is not the same as saying that i chose to be a victim. how could i choose when i didn't know better even if i am over 30 years old?
Dear Brainfixed, (Yes I do get it, haha, it seems like a real good avatar name to me)
Please do take your time if you read my thread in the "My Story" section. And if it seems hard to take in for whatever reason then please don't read any farther. I put it their hoping to help.
And I'm really glad that you've found help and feel that you have been learning and learning to overcome the effects of your experiences.
From personal experience and even within certain posts that were more common even at the Greasespot a year or so ago I picked up how TWI leadership used the phrase "victim mentality". They usually used this phrase to make their victims shut up about them being victimized. It seems that any legitimate complaints of abuse that was being done was hid by some of the things that have already come up on this thread and the complainers were also tagged with the label of being subject to "victim mentality". I find the use of this phrase so far in this thread to be much, much better. So in other words while the accused complainers with the "victim mentality" tag they were in truth building victim mentality in folks!? That seems almost too much to take in for me right now.
And because they so twisted the scriptures to their own purposes they may not have even realized what they were doing. I guess anyone still breathing has a chance to live and learn, but at times I've been feeling fairly angry about it all I guess.
i'm glad somebody besides me thinks this is a good topic because i sometimes wonder if it's just my damaged brain that thinks things like this are good things to talk about when it comes to talking about the way. chockfull what you said is better than how i was trying to explain things and thank you for saying it right. :) jeff it mkes me mad sometimes too, but being mad is often just the first emotion because being mad is a "safer" emotion especially when talking about the way or a way offshoot, because being mad was the only allowed emotion. i remember my brothers and sisters and mom would get real mad and red in the face and they would say it was "spiritual anger" and that a "devil spirit" around me would make them that angry at me for not renewing my mind, so calling it "spiritual anger" and blaming me was really a justification for their out of control rage. so what i've learned to do is look deeper into my anger and find out what i'm really feeling, because all those years of not being allowed to show my real feelings means that i often don't know what's really the underlying emotion, so maybe if you wanted to think about that when you feel anger then you might find out something more about you and maybe find another piece of what they way took, because that's what i think it's like is taking back another piece of my stolen soul, and that helps me do the work to look deeper even if it does feel bad.
Great posts Brain Fixed [and everyone else], and welcome to Grease Spot!
I think you deserve a lot more credit than you're giving yourself. Lately I've been thinking of a twofold issue: how effective TWI was in duping folks and yet there are a number of people who for one reason or another leave it. Don't have any great insight here - just that I believe it boils down to the indomitable spirit of man [A/V Department, please cue the "Rocky" theme at this time].
I don't think it matters how you've got to this point of realization or who helped you along the journey - the main thing is you're here. I'm not referring to your eyeballs staring at my post right now :blink: - but you're out of that insanity and working on understanding your experience/dealing with residual issues. It takes a brave soul to re-activate so many areas of "da brain"...to truly think for yourself, to question, embrace emotions, make decisions, etc.
Al Franken's character Stewart Smalley on SNL spoke a great truth, "Only you can help you." ....It's partly: re-discovering who you are, re-claiming your true personality, understanding who you're becoming now, exploring/developing the different aspects of your life, detecting & dealing with mental/emotional baggage. Sometimes it felt like awakening from suspended animation and playing catch up with reality. Except I aged while in suspended animation - oh bummer. :(
so what i'm trying to say is that behavior modification is not good or bad, it just is.
CHA_CHING!
but on the subject of how a victim is made, then behavior modification is bad. see? and the "love bombing" is very much a part of the behavior modification an abuser uses on a victim, but it is clinically known as "the honeymoon phase" in the cycle of violence. alot of people don't know that the honeymoon phase is a part of the violence. it is the place where the behavior modification takes root in the mind of the victim which is why the cops and anybody else who asks an abused wife why she stays she says "because i love him". and the abuser knows this in his gut, but he may not understand that he knows this, it's just a part of what he knows he needs to do to keep the victim in a "willing" state to be the victim. but he's just buttering her up and he knows it, but he doesn't play it like that at all. he plays it like he made a huge mistake and look how good he's being and shouldn't that count for something? and he may even believe it himself during the honeymoon phase. but don't think for one minute that during the explosion/violence phase he isn't thinking that when it's all over he'll just butter her up again. and that is how the way was like an abusive relationship for me.
Ironically, I actually heard the phrase "honeymoon phase" deliberately used in The Way as early as the early 1970's.
It was "explained" in "leadership training" sessions that we were supposed to make a deliberate effort to facilitate pleasant initial experiences for newbies because "the honeymoon phase" (sic) would eventually wear off. We were to watch for that to happen and use it as an opportunity to "explain" to the person that it was a sign they were growing beyond the milk of The Word and were ready for more of the meat.
So, the person (doing the "explaining" to the newbie) was actually the one being conditioned to accept this loss of artificial euphoria as an indicator of their own "spiritual growth". It was a sort of backdoor approach. Instead of simply addressing the situation in a one-on-one manner, they made the person being conditioned (the "leader in training") a third party observer.
This enabled the "leadership trainee" to rationalize their own loss of euphoria and abandon legitimate concern for reality.
And, that's only step #1!
A couple years later, I found myself in Fellow Laborers of Ohio (FLO), mopping floors at limb HQ. My efforts briefly caught the eye of some great and mighty Poobah from Int. HQ who happened to be passing through. He asked me if I was enjoying the work. My reply was that, while I didn't enjoy mopping floors, I found satisfaction in knowing my efforts would help visitors ready their minds for the meat of The Word. (I'd already been conditioned to step #1 at that stage.) To my surprise, the almighty passing Poobah launched into a butt chewing about how I was supposed to "renew my mind" to extracting pleasure from the task itself. In other words, I was to move on to step #2, which is to self delude yourself into trying to recapture "the honeymoon phase". He shook his head in feigned disgust and said " You just don't get it." as he turned and walked away.
. . . so what i've learned to do is look deeper into my anger and find out what i'm really feeling, because all those years of not being allowed to show my real feelings means that i often don't know what's really the underlying emotion, so maybe if you wanted to think about that when you feel anger then you might find out something more about you and maybe find another piece of what they way took, because that's what i think it's like is taking back another piece of my stolen soul, and that helps me do the work to look deeper even if it does feel bad.
Hi brainfixed,
You remember a time before twi was in your life? Do you remember a difference in your mind?
assuming the soul exists for sake of discussion, what "piece" did they take? What does that mean?
TWI temporarily took the piece of my soul that says it's okay to do something just for myself. That not everything has to be done, first and foremost, to promote TWI, while my own needs and desires take a back seat. The part that says it's alright to write a song or a poem that isn't "God Centered" (whatever the heck that means.) They took the part of me that says I can come to the end of a day and not give a rat's behind whether it was "profitable" or whether I did something to "move Gawd's Word". They took the part of me that doesn't look at everything and try to spiritually analyze it, looking for goblins behind every rock and devil spirit influences in songs I would otherwise enjoy. Yes, I was a very different person before my association with The Way.
I've made great progress in reclaiming those things but it's been a slow process.
I look at the difference between my relationship with my son while we were in TWI and my relationship with my grandson now, 13 years post-TWI. I am fully cognizant that I'm the Yiayia here and not the mom, but still, we all got to the same church, and I could well be concerned with my grandson's behavior and its reflection upon all of us.
Sprout has at least some of the symptoms of ADHD. He had been in foster care from age 16 months to age 8. He was, in short, a freakin' mess, but a cute freakin' mess with a gorgeous smile and the most beautiful blue eyes you've ever seen.
His behavior was not standard TWI-child behavior, listen-remember-obey without question the first time every time, to say the least. There was only one way to modify his behavior, according to TWI, and that was prolonged, severe, extremely painful thrashings. We didn't always comply, but it was definitely an issue by the time we went into FWC. He hated Rome City, was always getting smacked by someone, he acted out, and we were tossed out.
His behavior did not improve. We were told to "get rid of him." We refused. We left. But the stage had been set and he has not had an easy life up to now.
Now I realize there are those who will look at this and say, "Yes, BUT, it was YOUR decision to do what you did. No one coerced you to harshly discipline your son. No one forced you to enter FWC. Well, that's true, I guess, but by that time in our lives we had been around for quite a while (21 and 22 years) that our behavior was indeed pretty modified to conform with the expectations of leadership of TWI and see to it that our son listened attentively, remembered accurately, and obeyed without question. What we really needed was professional counseling. I'm sure you know how much that would have been encouraged. We were never told to just love the poor kid, figure out what was going on, TALK to him. His thoughts were irrelevant; he's a child you are the parent; the husband decides and the rest of your just fall in line.
When we left TWI I told him I would probably die now, and it was all his fault. God forgive me; I know Sprout has.
Now, as far as the grandkids are concerned, as long as they aren't too loud and aren't hurting anyone or anyone's stuff, I don't much worry about them. I just tell Mini all the time how much I love him, and how smart and handsome and wonderful he is. And you know what? It works!
Behavior modification of children is much easier if you can do it without pain. I spent 6 years being terrified of what would happen if Sprout didn't conform to a standard that was impossibly high.
WG
Waysider - which Bozo said you should enjoy mopping the floor??? Someone who never touched a mop in his life is my guess!
A couple years later, I found myself in Fellow Laborers of Ohio (FLO), mopping floors at limb HQ. My efforts briefly caught the eye of some great and mighty Poobah from Int. HQ who happened to be passing through. He asked me if I was enjoying the work. My reply was that, while I didn't enjoy mopping floors, I found satisfaction in knowing my efforts would help visitors ready their minds for the meat of The Word. (I'd already been conditioned to step #1 at that stage.) To my surprise, the almighty passing Poobah launched into a butt chewing about how I was supposed to "renew my mind" to extracting pleasure from the task itself. In other words, I was to move on to step #2, which is to self delude yourself into trying to recapture "the honeymoon phase". He shook his head in feigned disgust and said " You just don't get it." as he turned and walked away.
Pleasure from the task itself? It wasn't enough that twi was conning us into providing free labor for them...they wanted us to LIKE IT as well! Bend over and smile? I suppose the modification of the behavior wasn't complete until they had you LIKING IT...
...thank you sir may I have another?...when the twi "poobah" turned and walked away, somebody should have run up behind him, grabbed his hair and ran his face into a wall.
When I think of these topics, one of the verses that is the most comforting is Joel 2:25:
"And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you"
I look forward to with anticipation God restoring to me the years the worms have eaten.
A couple years later, I found myself in Fellow Laborers of Ohio (FLO), mopping floors at limb HQ. My efforts briefly caught the eye of some great and mighty Poobah from Int. HQ who happened to be passing through. He asked me if I was enjoying the work. My reply was that, while I didn't enjoy mopping floors, I found satisfaction in knowing my efforts would help visitors ready their minds for the meat of The Word. (I'd already been conditioned to step #1 at that stage.) To my surprise, the almighty passing Poobah launched into a butt chewing about how I was supposed to "renew my mind" to extracting pleasure from the task itself. In other words, I was to move on to step #2, which is to self delude yourself into trying to recapture "the honeymoon phase". He shook his head in feigned disgust and said " You just don't get it." as he turned and walked away.
The first time I heard that was the last time I ever got coerced into volunteering to help clean someone else's house. I would politely say that I have my own house to clean.
Interestingly enough, when JAL moved back to town and bought a house, he expected other people to do all the cleaning, yard work, and maintenance. I guess a few did in the beginning. Then people got a clue and stopped doing it. I suggested that he do what the rest of us do, which is either don't do it, hire someone else to do it, or do it.
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Tzaia
I know. There were times when I emotionally wanted to do what some of you were doing - it seemed like such a good way to serve the Lord. Then I looked at the reality - people "equipped" by the organiz
Tzaia
TWI was a haven for abusers and the abused. For the abused, TWI's dynamic was a source of comfort. For the abuser, TWI provided an outlet. TWI placed a high value on conformity and being in the corp
Bolshevik
there it is agian :blink:
JeffSjo
Hi Brainfixed and welcome to the Greasespot Cafe.
I've seen the likenesses betweeen an abusive family relationships and my splinter group experiences too, and I think you make a very good and valid comparison. My splinter group I share a lot about in the "My Story" section and if you click on the arrows at the top of my quotes you will go back to the original thread that they came from. If you don't feel like doing that it's perfectly fine with me. But all quoted texts are just like that here, just click on the little arrow at the top to see the original thread that they came from.
And for many people here there seemed to be a hand in hand type relationship between abusive families and Way International abuse.
I hope that you enjoy posting and reading here.
Take care and God bless,
JEFF
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potato
welcome to GS, brainfixed. excellent first post. twi was the best place for abusers to hang out, and twi encouraged, even required abusive behavior from people who weren't already screwed up. the mental health professionals I've spoken with all agree that twi culture is extremely abusive.
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excathedra
thank you brainfixed, i couldn't agree more
(don't let garth see this thread ;) he doesn't believe one can wash a brain)
--
definitely definitely what you say is clear to me -- also coming from an abusive background
and welcome !
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waysider
Hi, brainfixed.
I hear you loud and clear.
Welcome aboard.
First one is on the house.
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brainfixed
thanks for the welcomes, and for the replies. jeff that's alot of reading, and alot to take in, so i have to take my time with it. it took me a long time to get up the courage to post here because i don't want to sound like a victim, but that is exactly what i was, until i learned how to stop it, but i was already too old to really help what had already happened, but now i keep trying everyday to ask myself what i am thinking and feeling and why i am thinking and feeling those things. i have to get my brain fixed. (get it? haha)
"victim mentality" is something that sounds like a choice, but is really a behavior modification produced by years of abuse. it trains people how to shut up about the abuse, how to go into denial of the terror and unreality of it all, how to think that it's all "normal", and how to hide it all with a smile and an "excuse". "victim mentality" is trained into a person. so i learned that to admit that i was victim is not the same as saying that i chose to be a victim. how could i choose when i didn't know better even if i am over 30 years old?
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Watered Garden
That is an amazing and enlightening observation! Thanks for posting!
WG
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brainfixed
thank you, but i did not learn this from observation or come up with it all by myself, my therapist showed it to me. she also showed me some of the things the way used to modify my behavior, like "believing equals receiving" is really a behavior modification tool that teaches the victim (of the behavior modification) to think that whatever happens to the victim is the victim's fault, and "renewed mind" reinforces the fault of the victim and teaches the victim "fix" their brain (get it? haha) to accept the fault put on their shoulders and to "excuse" the ones putting it on their shoulders because it all happened because the victim believed it to happen, so who's fault is it. when someone does this for years and years and even decades, they have learned that they must accept whatever happens to them because it is their fault. and when something like gang rape happens to a person who has been modified in this way and has learned that they are "blessing" some man who is their superior (husbands and leadership and bosses), then even though the whole world may "know better", some who's behavior has been modified to sublimate and negate and deny what their inner gut is telling them will "choose" to go along with it to avoid the worse abuse for not going along with it all. it's still a choice, right? no, because when someone is given a choice after years and even decades of behavior modification, they can't make any choice except for what the behavior modification trained them to make.
"right" and "wrong" are subject to what somebody was taught is "right" or "wrong". people may think it' obvious to anybody that murder is wrong, but why are there so many murders, then? people may think it's obvious that having group sex is wrong and that anybody involved in group sex is involved by choice, but why do the courts recognize spouse rape and date rape? it doesn't always take the threat of death to make somebody do something they don't really want to do. usually it just takes years and even decades of conditioning via behavior modification. people know that children are not "asking for it" and do not "enjoy" being molested because children are not expected to have the capacity to understand what is really going on. well, though, it has been proven over and over again that even grown up people over 30 years old or older that have been conditioned via behavior modification don't have the capacity to understand what is really going on.
i'm sorry this is so long, but this is new to me to talk about it with anybody besides my therapists and it seems to all come out like a flood.
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potato
don't be sorry, let loose as much as you like, just be aware that twi monitors what we write.
I'm pretty much in your shoes. not many outside can relate to what our lives were like, and it takes awhile before it feels ok to bring it up, as if it were a simple fact instead of a looming nightmare. I've heard it's really difficult for people who've been incarcerated a long time to adjust to life outside of prison. I think for a lot of us, it's the same type of adjustment. I still feel really disconnected from people. it's really hard to trust them, or take anyone at face value. it gets better a little at a time.
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GarthP2000
Oh you can wash it alright. (Done so many times when I was shampooing. ... Wound up losing a lot of my hair over the years tho. :blink: )
It's just a b*tch to dry.
---
But in all seriousness, at the risk of being portrayed as an ((drum roll)) e-v-i-l Way ((GASP)) *apologist* (woman screams in the background)
... (I _did_ say 'in all seriousness', didn't I? ;) )
From my, admittedly amateur, observations/reading/thinking from an independent stance, the concept of 'mind control' (at least of the 'Manchurian Candidate' variety) isn't as widespread as many people would like to think. And without trying to dig out all of my posts on which I pontificate/pi** some people off on the matter, I'll condense what I've found into the following points:
1) Has mind control been actually medically, professionally, and clinically defined/diagnosed? From what I've seen, it has been a 'hit and miss' approach, ... _at best_.
2) Has mind control theories been (note the following-->) peer review level scientifically scrutinized, and that by _independent_ psychological professionals in that field. To the point where they prove said mind control theories? From what I've seen, that point hasn't been anywhere *near* reached.
3) How _selective_ has the mind control theory been applied to one group (you know, the 'cults'?) and not to others (the more mainstream perhaps?) even when dealing with the same 'cultic behavior'?
4) Some items on a few lists (like Lifton's) I have problems with. Examples as:
a) terms like 'love bombing', where affections are referred to as a tool in the application of 'mind control'. Hhmmmm, s-o-o, how is that distinctive from other applications of the same kind of affection, and where _that_ isn't a form of 'mind control'?
b) or how about this little jewel? "Loading the terminology". Where 'cults' take words like 'available', believing', 'renew your minds', and the like, and where somehow the term is redefined to mean something different, or is used a different way, and the process of 'mind control' continues because of it. Do tell? Well, first off, the English language is the most ambiguous language on the face of the planet. It is, almost by its very nature -- re-definable. Also, you know why I find 'loading the terminology' so damn ironic? Because the same anti-cult activists who decry that vile practice, ... well, they practice it themselves. Sure they do. --- The term 'cult' itself. Yes, the way they use the term cult IS a 'loading of the terminology'. How? Before the late 60's-early 70's, the term 'cult' was _neutral_ in meaning and usage. "Cult - (n) People who are followers of an idea, person, or thing." Notice how _neutral_ that is. Nowadays when people talk about cults (with the exception of its celebrity usage; "Rocky Horror Picture show's cult fans" for example), they use a term that has been twisted, changed, ... loaded, I daresay, from its original meaning. ... Like I said, ironic. <_<
How about that for a critic's synopsis regarding the 'brainwashing' issue, hmmmm?
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brainfixed
it took me awhile to think this through how i feel and think about it from me and not just from my warped experiences reactions, so i'm glad i have a couple of days off or i would fidget all day at work tomorrow thinking about this in my brain or fall asleep at work because i fidgeted all night about this.
i'm not sure if you're being funny or not garth because it comes across to me as maybe both tongue in cheek and serious, so i don't really know, but you bring up things that i've heard many times before, so i think it's good to talk about them.
i'm not really talking about the way and whether or not it was a cult or anything like that because as you point out the "cult" label can fit anything that's organized. i'm talking about how the way was very much like an abusive relationship, and i put "brainwashing" in the title because alot of people don't know that's what they mean when they say "behavior modification". like alot of people seem to think that "brainwashing" is some thing done in a back alley and "behavior modification" is done in some sterile psych ward or rehab center to houswives addicted to prescription pills like valium and hydrocodone and starlets addicted to meth and alcohol.
but behavior modification is something everybody does to everybody else everyday. believe it or not that's how society functions at it's root. raising children is one big behavior modification journey for both the parents and the children if you think about it. what happens when you're flying down the interstate at 85mph or more and suddenly see a cop alongside? well, you slow down, don't you? that's a result of behavior modification either because you're afriad you might get stopped and you've heard horror stories about fines and jail and all that, or because you've been there and done thate one too many times and have learned your lesson. now if you had never speeded in your life then you wouldn't have been speeding in the first place, so since you're speeding in the first place, you have to think if you should modify your behavior. see? but if you're the type that just flies along without regard to what's around you and you don't give a flip about the cop, oh well, then that's a whole different psych thing besides behavior modification. haha
so what i'm trying to say is that behavior modification is not good or bad, it just is. but on the subject of how a victim is made, then behavior modification is bad. see? and the "love bombing" is very much a part of the behavior modification an abuser uses on a victim, but it is clinically known as "the honeymoon phase" in the cycle of violence. alot of people don't know that the honeymoon phase is a part of the violence. it is the place where the behavior modification takes root in the mind of the victim which is why the cops and anybody else who asks an abused wife why she stays she says "because i love him". and the abuser knows this in his gut, but he may not understand that he knows this, it's just a part of what he knows he needs to do to keep the victim in a "willing" state to be the victim. but he's just buttering her up and he knows it, but he doesn't play it like that at all. he plays it like he made a huge mistake and look how good he's being and shouldn't that count for something? and he may even believe it himself during the honeymoon phase. but don't think for one minute that during the explosion/violence phase he isn't thinking that when it's all over he'll just butter her up again. and that is how the way was like an abusive relationship for me.
but yes the professional circle certainly has "defined/diagnosed" mind control, but it's not what the way called "hookey pooh" and all that "possession" and "devil spirit" stuff, but it's behavior modification to the maximum limit. haven't you ever heard of "battered woman's syndrome" or "stockholm syndrome"? those are actual sub-diagnoses and are recognized as such in the legal arenas as well as in the psychological professions. but i'm not a professional anything but have been told these things by professionals who have helped me, so maybe i got it wrong, but i don't think so, but i will ask. i think maybe i'd better go to bed now. haha
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chockfull
brainfixed,
Good stuff. I have a couple things to add from talking things over with friends who work in psychology fields regarding behavior modification. A common tactic is to make the changes or concessions to behavior small and many. So the abuser asks for just a small concession to make them happy. "Just do this for me - it's not much to ask". Then when the victim grows comfortable with that, another small request. Over time, these small concessions turn into a huge deviation from what a person would normally out of common sense agree to from a simple moral perspective or a perspective that puts one's self and family at the center of decisions. But the brunt of the requests are never to go from the norm to the outer extremes, it's incremental. "Well, it's just a small change". This is the unhealthy cycle of abuse where the abuser bends the victim more and more to their will and the victim justifies it.
In TWI, this behavior modification centers around the political structure of the organization. Politics and bribery drive TWI. The bribery has financial components, and even more emotional components. This is in direct contrast to a healthy service from love perspective. TWI has moved away from "It Is Written" as a standard for their leadership to "It Is Position". It very much has turned exactly into what VP used to criticize about the Catholic church - their priorities are 1) Pope speaking ex-cathedra 2) Traditions of the church 3) The Bible. And with the priority being such, this basically discounts any God-inspired individual armed with the scriptures from being able to speak up about any practices. As what the Bible says matters less than how it fits in to traditions and traditional decisions, and all of that has to be checked with the one in power speaking ex-cathedra.
It results in things you see today - like teachers at an Advanced Class Special teaching at a dull and dumbed down 3rd grade perspective, the mind-numbing articles in magazines all that are less challenging than an average Sunday school class for middle schoolers in chuch. People never speaking up. Scriptures being ignored and brushed off with phrases like "we're not working that topic now". And this behavior is modeled all the way throughout the organization to various degrees. You may have some variation in the ego and despotism that some local leader functions with, but to maintain their little local fiefdom they conform that way upwards, and eventually downwards too.
It's all just one huge ball of Pharisees and vipers - something to pray to God to be delivered from - like 2 Thess 3:2 speaks of - to be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men.
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shortfuse
Mmm, good verse. Thanks for that thought.
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JeffSjo
Dear Brainfixed, (Yes I do get it, haha, it seems like a real good avatar name to me)
Please do take your time if you read my thread in the "My Story" section. And if it seems hard to take in for whatever reason then please don't read any farther. I put it their hoping to help.
And I'm really glad that you've found help and feel that you have been learning and learning to overcome the effects of your experiences.
From personal experience and even within certain posts that were more common even at the Greasespot a year or so ago I picked up how TWI leadership used the phrase "victim mentality". They usually used this phrase to make their victims shut up about them being victimized. It seems that any legitimate complaints of abuse that was being done was hid by some of the things that have already come up on this thread and the complainers were also tagged with the label of being subject to "victim mentality". I find the use of this phrase so far in this thread to be much, much better. So in other words while the accused complainers with the "victim mentality" tag they were in truth building victim mentality in folks!? That seems almost too much to take in for me right now.
And because they so twisted the scriptures to their own purposes they may not have even realized what they were doing. I guess anyone still breathing has a chance to live and learn, but at times I've been feeling fairly angry about it all I guess.
I really like the thread and the conversation.
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brainfixed
i'm glad somebody besides me thinks this is a good topic because i sometimes wonder if it's just my damaged brain that thinks things like this are good things to talk about when it comes to talking about the way. chockfull what you said is better than how i was trying to explain things and thank you for saying it right. :) jeff it mkes me mad sometimes too, but being mad is often just the first emotion because being mad is a "safer" emotion especially when talking about the way or a way offshoot, because being mad was the only allowed emotion. i remember my brothers and sisters and mom would get real mad and red in the face and they would say it was "spiritual anger" and that a "devil spirit" around me would make them that angry at me for not renewing my mind, so calling it "spiritual anger" and blaming me was really a justification for their out of control rage. so what i've learned to do is look deeper into my anger and find out what i'm really feeling, because all those years of not being allowed to show my real feelings means that i often don't know what's really the underlying emotion, so maybe if you wanted to think about that when you feel anger then you might find out something more about you and maybe find another piece of what they way took, because that's what i think it's like is taking back another piece of my stolen soul, and that helps me do the work to look deeper even if it does feel bad.
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T-Bone
Great posts Brain Fixed [and everyone else], and welcome to Grease Spot!
I think you deserve a lot more credit than you're giving yourself. Lately I've been thinking of a twofold issue: how effective TWI was in duping folks and yet there are a number of people who for one reason or another leave it. Don't have any great insight here - just that I believe it boils down to the indomitable spirit of man [A/V Department, please cue the "Rocky" theme at this time].
I don't think it matters how you've got to this point of realization or who helped you along the journey - the main thing is you're here. I'm not referring to your eyeballs staring at my post right now :blink: - but you're out of that insanity and working on understanding your experience/dealing with residual issues. It takes a brave soul to re-activate so many areas of "da brain"...to truly think for yourself, to question, embrace emotions, make decisions, etc.
Al Franken's character Stewart Smalley on SNL spoke a great truth, "Only you can help you." ....It's partly: re-discovering who you are, re-claiming your true personality, understanding who you're becoming now, exploring/developing the different aspects of your life, detecting & dealing with mental/emotional baggage. Sometimes it felt like awakening from suspended animation and playing catch up with reality. Except I aged while in suspended animation - oh bummer. :(
A round of cappuccino for everyone
Love & peace T-Bone
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waysider
Ironically, I actually heard the phrase "honeymoon phase" deliberately used in The Way as early as the early 1970's.
It was "explained" in "leadership training" sessions that we were supposed to make a deliberate effort to facilitate pleasant initial experiences for newbies because "the honeymoon phase" (sic) would eventually wear off. We were to watch for that to happen and use it as an opportunity to "explain" to the person that it was a sign they were growing beyond the milk of The Word and were ready for more of the meat.
So, the person (doing the "explaining" to the newbie) was actually the one being conditioned to accept this loss of artificial euphoria as an indicator of their own "spiritual growth". It was a sort of backdoor approach. Instead of simply addressing the situation in a one-on-one manner, they made the person being conditioned (the "leader in training") a third party observer.
This enabled the "leadership trainee" to rationalize their own loss of euphoria and abandon legitimate concern for reality.
And, that's only step #1!
A couple years later, I found myself in Fellow Laborers of Ohio (FLO), mopping floors at limb HQ. My efforts briefly caught the eye of some great and mighty Poobah from Int. HQ who happened to be passing through. He asked me if I was enjoying the work. My reply was that, while I didn't enjoy mopping floors, I found satisfaction in knowing my efforts would help visitors ready their minds for the meat of The Word. (I'd already been conditioned to step #1 at that stage.) To my surprise, the almighty passing Poobah launched into a butt chewing about how I was supposed to "renew my mind" to extracting pleasure from the task itself. In other words, I was to move on to step #2, which is to self delude yourself into trying to recapture "the honeymoon phase". He shook his head in feigned disgust and said " You just don't get it." as he turned and walked away.
What a bizarre and twisted lifestyle we lived!
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Bolshevik
Hi brainfixed,
You remember a time before twi was in your life? Do you remember a difference in your mind?
assuming the soul exists for sake of discussion, what "piece" did they take? What does that mean?
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waysider
I can't answer for brainfixed.
I can only answer for myself.
TWI temporarily took the piece of my soul that says it's okay to do something just for myself. That not everything has to be done, first and foremost, to promote TWI, while my own needs and desires take a back seat. The part that says it's alright to write a song or a poem that isn't "God Centered" (whatever the heck that means.) They took the part of me that says I can come to the end of a day and not give a rat's behind whether it was "profitable" or whether I did something to "move Gawd's Word". They took the part of me that doesn't look at everything and try to spiritually analyze it, looking for goblins behind every rock and devil spirit influences in songs I would otherwise enjoy. Yes, I was a very different person before my association with The Way.
I've made great progress in reclaiming those things but it's been a slow process.
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Watered Garden
((((((Waysider))))))
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Watered Garden
I look at the difference between my relationship with my son while we were in TWI and my relationship with my grandson now, 13 years post-TWI. I am fully cognizant that I'm the Yiayia here and not the mom, but still, we all got to the same church, and I could well be concerned with my grandson's behavior and its reflection upon all of us.
Sprout has at least some of the symptoms of ADHD. He had been in foster care from age 16 months to age 8. He was, in short, a freakin' mess, but a cute freakin' mess with a gorgeous smile and the most beautiful blue eyes you've ever seen.
His behavior was not standard TWI-child behavior, listen-remember-obey without question the first time every time, to say the least. There was only one way to modify his behavior, according to TWI, and that was prolonged, severe, extremely painful thrashings. We didn't always comply, but it was definitely an issue by the time we went into FWC. He hated Rome City, was always getting smacked by someone, he acted out, and we were tossed out.
His behavior did not improve. We were told to "get rid of him." We refused. We left. But the stage had been set and he has not had an easy life up to now.
Now I realize there are those who will look at this and say, "Yes, BUT, it was YOUR decision to do what you did. No one coerced you to harshly discipline your son. No one forced you to enter FWC. Well, that's true, I guess, but by that time in our lives we had been around for quite a while (21 and 22 years) that our behavior was indeed pretty modified to conform with the expectations of leadership of TWI and see to it that our son listened attentively, remembered accurately, and obeyed without question. What we really needed was professional counseling. I'm sure you know how much that would have been encouraged. We were never told to just love the poor kid, figure out what was going on, TALK to him. His thoughts were irrelevant; he's a child you are the parent; the husband decides and the rest of your just fall in line.
When we left TWI I told him I would probably die now, and it was all his fault. God forgive me; I know Sprout has.
Now, as far as the grandkids are concerned, as long as they aren't too loud and aren't hurting anyone or anyone's stuff, I don't much worry about them. I just tell Mini all the time how much I love him, and how smart and handsome and wonderful he is. And you know what? It works!
Behavior modification of children is much easier if you can do it without pain. I spent 6 years being terrified of what would happen if Sprout didn't conform to a standard that was impossibly high.
WG
Waysider - which Bozo said you should enjoy mopping the floor??? Someone who never touched a mop in his life is my guess!
WG
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excathedra
thank you brainfixed
---
off the top of my head, bolsh, one part of my soul stolen was belief in myself which i guess means self-image
not that i'm saying it was any good to begin with
i just wish it could have been nurturned, nourished, whatever
instead of broken down so much more
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GrouchoMarxJr
Pleasure from the task itself? It wasn't enough that twi was conning us into providing free labor for them...they wanted us to LIKE IT as well! Bend over and smile? I suppose the modification of the behavior wasn't complete until they had you LIKING IT...
...thank you sir may I have another?...when the twi "poobah" turned and walked away, somebody should have run up behind him, grabbed his hair and ran his face into a wall.
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chockfull
When I think of these topics, one of the verses that is the most comforting is Joel 2:25:
"And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you"
I look forward to with anticipation God restoring to me the years the worms have eaten.
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Tzaia
The first time I heard that was the last time I ever got coerced into volunteering to help clean someone else's house. I would politely say that I have my own house to clean.
Interestingly enough, when JAL moved back to town and bought a house, he expected other people to do all the cleaning, yard work, and maintenance. I guess a few did in the beginning. Then people got a clue and stopped doing it. I suggested that he do what the rest of us do, which is either don't do it, hire someone else to do it, or do it.
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