from the girl who steers clear of Doctrinal convo's..........
When we were in TWI I had a dream that repeated itself about 8 times that I recall. I was back in my home town for some reason on a side street across from the house I grew up in, running.
There were people every flippin' where, some running, some walking, all in different states of emotional highs and lows. Children were seperated from parents, odd animals were milling about.
Jumanji !
Yet it didn't feel like chaos, necessarily, just very unsettling and kinda trippy. I slowed to a walk and someone spoke to me; a man in all yellow from head to toe, top hat to yellow shoes. Talk about trippy, I thought I was in a Matthew Lesko commercial.
But he told me in a whisper this was the time, this was it, we were on our way to Heaven right now.
Heaven? What?? Huh? Wait! ! ! Where was my baby (I only had one daughter at the time) and where was my husband and I recall looking for my Chocolate Lab amonst the 4 legged wanderers. If this was the Gathering Together, I wanted to do something else. Then I remembered my broher Paul, who's gay.
I then realized that some were running in one direction and others in, well, another. Heaven bound and Hell bound? Not the way I understood it, but dreams are weird. I didn't know where to look for Paul and it became, suddenly, even more important than looking for my husband and daughter. I found him sitting on a little white stool like grandpa used in the cow barn to milk. Just sitting there, smoking a cigarette, grinning at me. Sit down sis, just like he always said upon our greetings.
I told him we had to go, this was IT! and I tried to get him to rise and come with me, who knew how long before the Closed Sign would be put on on both places. He wouldn't comply and someone hollared "leave him, he can't go anyway".
I kept pulling on him, he kept pulling back, refusing to come with his amazing sister and someone kept hollaring we had to go. I turned and walked from him and went somewhere, hopefully to Heaven, but hey, who knows, the way I cuss
The way TWI taught stuff, yeah. Rewards and punishments, yeah.
The dream never returned again after I asked him for his forgiveness for treating him less than wonderful as my brother while I was in TWI and he accepted my apology and forgave me.
That "All things" phrase pertains to this earth the one which is now.
When it ends, All Things about it get settled, and All things go back to God's control
He (God) launches the new Heaven and the new Earth
He (God) makes Christ the light of that world
By this time, we shall know even as we also are known and we will have power
But every star differs in glory and That how it will be with us, Still,...
We will imitate Our Father, and strive to do what He does.
But insofar as worship goes, there is only one that is Good, and that is God
As his children we will do those things that please our Father
Any Glory will be to God
But "all things" is not the end of things
There will be new things.
I was reading a reference to the stars differing in glory the other day. I wish I could find it, but it is pretty similar to what you are saying. The writer likened it to bronze, silver, and gold. It was fascinating.
BTW Isn't Christ already is the light of the world? :)
Don't all things get put in subjection to Christ who then hands them to the Father? I probably have a different take on being glorified....sharing in Christs suffering in this life and sharing in God's glory...but, it is so interesting to me on how you speak of time and space....I love that stuff. It is so perspective building.
Here is an article you might enjoy about God's glory. I always think it will be different than any of us believe.
. . . We have come to the conclusion of Paul’s words in verses 28-30, to the culmination of the process God purposed in eternity past, and to the highest good known to man. Our glorification is the conclusion of the process Paul has been describing. It is the “good” of which Paul has spoken in verse 28. Because our glorification is so little understood, we will pursue at length this theme through the Bible.
Essentially there are but two kinds of glory in this world. There is the matchless, untarnished glory of God, and there is the tarnished, temporary glory of man. If we would understand our glorification, we must understand it in the context of the glory of God and against the backdrop of man’s glory.
The theme of the glory of God is best understood as it has been revealed. God has progressively revealed to us the doctrine of His glory, of its hope and promise for all who are the sons of God, and of its terror for all others. We will therefore endeavor to trace the theme of God’s glory from eternity past to eternity future. Only then can we understand the magnitude of that glorification which yet awaits those of us who know God in Christ.
We will consider the premises which should guide and govern our study, as well as the conclusions we will reach, before we begin to study the glory of God. These premises enumerated here are based upon the teaching of Paul in the Book of Romans.
(1) Glory and glorification must be understood in relationship to each other.Our glorification is to be understood in the light of Paul’s teaching about glory in Romans.
(2) Our glorification, while spoken of in the past tense, is yet future.
(3) Our glorification involves the redemption of our bodies and our adoption as sons (8:17-25; 9:4).
(4) Our glorification is certain(5:2),yet unseen(8:24-25).
(5) Our present suffering is preparatory and prerequisite to our future glorification(5:17).
(6) Our future glorification is God’s promised reward for the righteous, the “glory” of which Paul writes in Romans 2:7 and 10.
(7) Our future glorification is an extension or expression of God’s glory (5:2).
(8) The glory is that which God promised Israel and which Paul still speaks of as belonging to Israel (Romans 9:4).
Having set these premises before us, let us now trace the “glory of God” through the ages as described in the Bible. No more noble endeavor will ever come our way. Let us ask God to open our hearts and minds to His glory. It is indeed a transforming subject.
Satan was a magnificent being with a splendor second only to His Creator. But his reflected, secondary glory was not enough for him. He wanted more. He wanted God’s glory (Isaiah 14:12-14). Because of his greed for glory, Satan fell. All history is evidence of his continuing effort to tempt men to pursue a “God-like glory,” not by trusting in God but by striving to be like God.
When God made the heavens and the earth, He created Adam and Eve in His image. They were to reflect God’s image and His glory by ruling over creation. Satan tempted them to reach for a greater glory, the glory of being like God (see Genesis 3:5). When they followed Satan and disobeyed God, Adam and Eve fell, and all mankind fell with them (see Romans 5:12-21).
God created the universe as a showcase by which He could display His glory. Men were to see God’s glory in nature, and were obliged to glorify Him in worship. They refused, choosing rather to exchange the glory of God for a lesser glory, one which was like unto their own image. Because of this, men have shown themselves to be worthy of divine condemnation (Romans 1:18-23).
In the beginning, God’s glory was reflected in His creation and in man. Sin has tarnished the reflection of God’s glory. God chose a people to whom and through whom He could display His glory—the nation Israel. God’s glory was evident in His deliverance of the Israelites from Egyptian bondage (Numbers 14:22). It was evident in the wilderness, especially when the people sought to rebel against God (Exodus 16:7, 10; Numbers 14:10; 16:19, 42). God’s glory was revealed at Mt. Sinai, when He gave the Law to Moses (Exodus 24:16-17). It was also evident in the garments of the priest (Exodus 28:2, 40). It filled the tent of meeting (Exodus 29:42-43; 40:34-35; see also Leviticus 9:6, 23). Seeing God’s glory was the highest ambition and desire of Moses, a desire which God granted to him, in part (Exodus 33:18–34:8). When Israel went to war, God’s glory accompanied them in conjunction with the ark (see 1 Samuel 4:21-22).
Israel’s glory was her God (1 Samuel 15:29). Glory belonged only to Him (1 Chronicles 29:11). Israel’s response to God’s glory was to glorify Him in worship (1 Chronicles 16:29). Even sinners were to give glory to God (see Joshua 7:19; 1Samuel 6:5). Israel was not to worship idols because this would give glory to mere images, rather than to God. But beyond glorifying God in worship, Israel was to tell the nations of God’s glory (1 Chronicles 16:24). This is the heart of evangelism, then and now.
Israel did not glorify God. They turned from the God of glory to man-made idols. They did not obey His law. Justice and mercy were forgotten; worse yet, they were trampled under foot. Through His prophets, God admonished His people but they would not listen. God warned of a coming day of judgment at the hand of heathen nations. Beyond the day of God’s judgment was a day of redemption and restoration. There would come a time when Israel would be brought to repentance. God would then rule over them and even over the other nations.
All of this was described in various ways in the prophets. One of the prominent themes in the prophets was that of the glory of God. The theme of the glory of God as related to Israel’s sin, her judgment, and then her deliverance and future restoration are described by the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. Below are a sampling of the verses which play out the theme of God’s glory:
Israel’s Sin Against God’s Glory
And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory” (Isaiah 6:3).
For Jerusalem has stumbled, and Judah has fallen, Because their speech and their actions are against the Lord, To rebel against His glorious presence (Isaiah 3:8).
“I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images” (Isaiah 42:8).
“‘For as the waistband clings to the waist of a man, so I made the whole household of Israel and the whole household of Judah cling to Me,’ declares the Lord, ‘that they might be for Me a people, for renown, for praise, and for glory; but they did not listen’” (Jeremiah 13:11).
God’s Glory Requires His Judgment of Israel’s Sin
“Now therefore, behold, the Lord is about to bring on them the strong and abundant waters of the Euphrates, Even the king of Assyria and all his glory; And it will rise up over all its channels and go over all its banks” (Isaiah 8:7).
Now it will come about in that day that the glory of Jacob will fade, And the fatness of his flesh will become lean (Isaiah 17:4).
How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He has cast from heaven to earth The glory of Israel, And has not remembered His footstool In the day of His anger (Lamentations 2:1).
God’s Glory and the Overthrow of the Nations Which Were His Chastening Rod
And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah (Isaiah 13:19).
But now the Lord speaks, saying, “Within three years, as a hired man would count them, the glory of Moab will be degraded along with all his great population, and his remnant will be very small and impotent” (Isaiah 16:14).
“The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim, And sovereignty from Damascus And the remnant of Aram; They will be like the glory of the sons of Israel,” Declares the Lord of hosts (Isaiah 17:3).
God’s Glory and the Restoration of Israel
In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel (Isaiah 4:2).
Then the Lord will create over the whole area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy (Isaiah 4:5).
But there will be no more gloom for her who was in anguish; in earlier times He treated the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt, but later on He shall make it glorious, by the way of the sea, on the other side of Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles (Isaiah 9:1).
Then it will come about in that day That the nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious (Isaiah 11:10).
Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the Lord of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders (Isaiah 24:23).
In that day the Lord of hosts will become a beautiful crown And a glorious diadem to the remnant of His people (Isaiah 28:5).
The Nations Will Glorify God
Therefore a strong people will glorify Thee; Cities of ruthless nations will revere Thee (Isaiah 25:3).
“And you will swear, ‘As the Lord lives,’ In truth, in justice, and in righteousness; Then the nations will bless themselves in Him, And in Him they will glory” (Jeremiah 4:2).
All Creation Will Glorify God
“The beasts of the field will glorify Me; The jackals and the ostriches; Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people” (Isaiah 43:20).
Shout for joy, O heavens, for the Lord has done it! Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it; For the Lord has redeemed Jacob And in Israel He shows forth His glory (Isaiah 44:23).
Before leaving the theme of the glory of God in the Old Testament, several important observations should be stressed:
First, Israel’s glory was to share in the glory of God.Israel did not have a glory of her own. Israel was, by divine design, established for the glory of God. God’s presence among His people was glory to Israel. The righteousness of God manifested in and through His people was the glory of God.
“In the Lord all the offspring of Israel will be justified, and will glory” (Isaiah 45:25).
“No longer will you have the sun for light by day, Nor for brightness will the moon give you light; But you will have the Lord for an everlasting light, And your God for your glory” (Isaiah 60:19).
“I bring near My righteousness, it is not far off; And My salvation will not delay. And I will grant salvation in Zion, and My glory for Israel” (Isaiah 46:13).
Second, God’s glory is as evident in His judgment of sin as it is in the manifestation of His righteousness through His people. When Israel sinned, they were unrighteous. This did not glorify God. God’s glory was therefore manifested in His wrath toward sin. Whether in her obedience or in her disobedience, God would be glorified through His people, Israel.
Third, Israel’s glory was not to be hoarded but to be shared with and by the other nations. Israel quickly began to think of her glory as her glory. While God would not share His glory with any other “gods,” Israel was to share her glory with the nations. This she refused to do. When God spoke of the glory that was to come, Israel would be glorified, but the nations would also have a share in it.
Behold, you will call a nation you do not know, And a nation which knows you not will run to you, Because of the Lord your God, even the Holy One of Israel; For He has glorified you (Isaiah 55:5).
Surely the coastlands will wait for Me; And the ships of Tarshish will come first, To bring your sons from afar, Their silver and their gold with them, For the name of the Lord your God, And for the Holy One of Israel because He has glorified you (Isaiah 60:9).
For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory. And I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Rosh, Tubal, and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations (Isaiah 66:18-19).
Fourth, Israel’s glory would ultimately be brought about by Messiah Who would first suffer and then enter into His glory.Israel, God’s servant, failed. She had proven that she was unable to be the servant God required. The Messiah was to take Israel’s place and to become the Suffering Servant. Only in Him could Israel be justified. Only in Him could Israel be glorified:
Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street. A bruised reed He will not break, And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not be disheartened or crushed, Until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law (Isaiah 42:1-4; see also 52:13-15; 53:1-12).
Christ: God’s Glory Revealed in the Flesh
Our Lord Jesus Christ is God’s revelation of His glory. If the creation manifests the glory of God, far more does the One who created it—God manifested in the flesh:
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1:14).
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Hebrews 1:3).
It is no wonder that glory accompanied the announcements of Christ’s coming:
And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened (Luke 2:9).
“Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased” (Luke 2:14).
“A light of revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Thy people Israel” (Luke 2:32).
This “glory” of our Lord was often veiled during the days of our Lord upon the earth. It could be seen by His mighty deeds,215 and by His character, but most were unable to see it, even His disciples. And so, from time to time, God lifted the veil. Such was the case at our Lord’s transfiguration:
Who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him (Luke 9:31-32).
Throughout His earthly life, Jesus did not seek men’s glory but rather He sought to glorify His Father.216 In His high priestly prayer for His disciples in those last hours before His crucifixion, Jesus prayed:
“And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was” (John 17:5).
“And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one” (John 17:22).
“Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24).
Because the nation Israel had rejected God, they also rejected His Son. They crucified Him, nailing Him to the cross of Calvary. By means of His innocent suffering and death, God provided the only means by which sinners could be saved. Jesus bore the wrath of God in the sinner’s place. Jesus provided the righteousness of God, which the sinner could never produce. Because of His suffering, God glorified the Lord Jesus:
Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:9-11).
The glory of our Lord has its present dimensions for which the Christian can now rejoice.
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory on account of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).
But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18).
We who have seen the glory of God in Christ have also been given the privilege of proclaiming the glory of God displayed in the gospel:
In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6).
We have the privilege while waiting for the coming of His glory to live our lives to His glory:
For all things are for your sakes, that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God (2 Corinthians 4:15).
Wherefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God (Romans 15:7).
As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker among you; as for our brethren, they are messengers of the churches, a glory to Christ (2 Corinthians 8:23).
We, along with Israel of old, look forward to the full revelation of the glory of God in His kingdom at the return of our Lord Jesus Christ:
When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory (Colossians 3:4).
Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (Titus 2:13).
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed (1 Peter 5:1).
After these things I heard, as it were, a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God (Revelation 19:1).
And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. And the nations shall walk by its light, and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it (Revelation 21:23-24).
Conclusion
Having briefly traced the theme of the glory of God through the Scriptures, we may now draw some conclusions as to the meaning of “glorified” in Roman 8:30.
(1) To be glorified is to enter into the blessings of the full glory of God which we now experience in part.
(2) To be glorified is to receive our adoption as sons and the redemption of our bodies.
(3) To be glorified is to be free from the corruption of sin and death.
(4) To be glorified is to experience the goal for which we were chosen, called, and justified.
(5) To be glorified is to obtain that “good” for which God has been causing all things to work together (Romans 8:28).
(6) To be glorified is to have a share in the glory which belongs to Israel.
A number of implications which have very practical outworkings in our daily lives may be drawn from our text.
The glorification of the believer is a sure and certain hope. As Paul said earlier, “we exult in hope of the glory of God” (Romans 5:2). God purposed and promised it. God is sovereign, and He controls each step in His program to assure that it is accomplished. God’s reputation and glory are at stake. All three of the crucial verbs in our text are in the past tense: “called,” “justified,” “glorified.” Even though this final step of glorification is still future, it is a certain hope.
God is the One who is at work. He is the One who is the subject of all three verbs: He “called,” He “justified,” He “glorified.” Because God is sovereign, in complete control, His purpose of glorifying us will be accomplished. The certainty of our hope of glory is rooted in the sovereignty of God. Just as we have been called and justified, so we shall be glorified. God’s infinite wisdom and power are in control. God’s plan is progressing toward that goal.
Some try to motivate Christian service and faithfulness by fear, doubt, and guilt. Paul never does, and neither does any writer of the sacred Scriptures. The security of the believer and the certainty of glory is the basis for faithful service.
The glory of God is the highest good. We must always view our good as subordinate to the glory of God. We must make the glory of God our ultimate goal. Our glory is always subordinate to His glory. Our glory is His glory. There will always be a “vain glory,” a glory which Satan promotes and which men pursue, but this is not the glory of God. Let us, like Moses, yearn to see His glory and to seek it as our highest good.
The glory of God is the standard for our every thought and deed. If we seek a guiding principle for our lives, let the glory of God be of paramount importance. Whatever we do, it should be to the glory of God: “Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).
The glory of God is the perspective from which life should be viewed and lived out. Satan would have us seek our own glory and the glory which men give one another. God would have us seek His glory alone. Seeking the glory of God gives us a perspective by which all of life can be viewed. In the context of Romans 8, the glory of God is that which gives the Christian hope and confidence in the midst of our sufferings and groanings. Elsewhere, Paul tells us that the glory of God makes our present sufferings seem insignificant:
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven; inasmuch as we, having put it on, shall not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in order that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—for we walk by faith, not by sight—we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him (2 Corinthians 4:16–5:9).
The glory of God helps explain a command of Scripture which many find distasteful. More than ever (due to the current drift of our culture), Christian women are perplexed and even distressed at Paul’s command that women refrain from a prominent leadership role in the church. The following texts are usually the source of their dismay:
Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? (1 Corinthians 14:34-36).
Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression. But women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint (1 Timothy 2:11-15).
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word; they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. And let not your adornment be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God (1 Peter 3:1-4).
I believe that the “glory of God” gives us the perspective which not only explains the reason for this biblical imperative but can also give us joy in obeying it. Note the way in which Paul uses the term glory in this text:
But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying, disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God (1 Corinthians 11:3-16).
Many efforts have been made to explain this text. Many have failed. In spite of this, I urge you to reconsider Paul’s words in this text in the light of our study of the glory of God. God alone is worthy of glory. God prohibits men from giving glory to anyone or anything other than Himself, yet He does grant us a share in His glory. Satan, on the other hand, wants to tempt us to seek our own glory rather than to give glory to God. He even tried to tempt our Lord to pursue a lesser glory:
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory; (Matthew 4:8).
If we view God’s glory as the highest good, our highest good, then we will not seek any lesser glory. We will gladly give to God the preeminence, position, and praise which He alone deserves. This is precisely the premise on which the New Testament writers base their instruction to Christian women. God has given men the task of reflecting His glory. They are therefore to assume positions of leadership and preeminence in the church. Women are to reflect the believer’s response to the glory of God. They are not to seek that which gives them glory but are to gladly conduct themselves in a way that focuses the glory on their husbands. The husband then uses his glory for the benefit of his wife. This is but a picture of God’s relationship with His children.
Why is there such an outcry today about this biblical instruction? I would like to suggest that there are at least three reasons. First, our culture is adamantly opposed to God’s ways. Second, Christians have become enticed to seek their own glory as though it were a virtue, rather than a vice. Finally, they have completely failed to understand the command that women avoid preeminence (including leading and teaching men and getting attention from their clothing or demeanor), in the light of God’s teaching on glory. The doctrine of God’s glory should cause one to delight in surrendering that which we do not deserve and seeking by this to glorify God. God’s glory gives us a new perspective concerning any glory we might seek for ourselves.
Paul’s words, found in the eleventh chapter of Romans, provide us with our concluding thought to hold in our minds: “For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen” (Romans 11:36).
BTW Isn't Christ already is the light of the world?
Indeed he is, but he's absent and the Devil is running the kingdoms of this world. So he's the light that's on somewhere else.
You can make the arguement that he is present through us, lighting the world, but we haven't exactly figured out how to extinguish darkness on a reliable basis.
Indeed he is, but he's absent and the Devil is running the kingdoms of this world. So he's the light that's on somewhere else.
You can make the arguement that he is present through us, lighting the world, but we haven't exactly figured out how to extinguish darkness on a reliable basis.
Katie,
Even Satan is in subjection to God. . .and God is not depending on us to extinguish the darkness. . . He does however, allow us to share the glorious light of the gospel of Christ.
Sometimes I think even the highest understanding of God we can have....doesn't scratch the surface.
Indeed he is, but he's absent and the Devil is running the kingdoms of this world. So he's the light that's on somewhere else.
You can make the arguement that he is present through us, lighting the world, but we haven't exactly figured out how to extinguish darkness on a reliable basis.
The irony for those who (wrongly) believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan, is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to story book Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for story book Jesus in story book Revelation 22:16.
The irony for those who (wrongly) believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan, is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to story book Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for story book Jesus in story book Revelation 22:16.
Actually it makes perfect sense if you understand it, why both are referred to with the word light.
But certainly, you don't believe in the "storybook" as you call it, so you don't believe in the existence of Lucifer. Thefore,you're just argueing points you deny and being silly. That is, of course, unless you have your own version of "srtorybook" characters. If so start a thread.
At first I didn't know what to make of you Cman, but it became easy for me to appreciate your voice and enjoyable too because it is sooooo far from Way formulated scripture studies that somehow manage to lay out truth in a very anal retentive style yet somehow still managed to twist, and butcher many topics. :)
after considering your posts a few things came up for me....
#1 gathering of wheat....and tares.
-resurrection of just....and unjust
Even though these events are going to be one time future events on the Lord's table (so-to-speak) that in the mean time we all are setting the table for him. Decisions are now, accountability starts now, and the table has been being set for him for all history also in-the-now of whatever moment in history we may be referring to.
Also...
He will gather together...
-He is the resurrection...
One is action, one is object, but he is and does each. They are the same,HIM.
I am familiar with the story line Sunesis, and for the direction this thread has gone I see only good coming from posting it out here like you did so that we can consider the matter. :)
One of my main consideration and/or endeavor is to compare a storyline like the one that you share with what the scriptures actually say.
And even if we were misled by The Way, I am one of those folks who continues to appreciate learning how to comare beliefs with what the scriptures say and doing my best to evaluate all things.
And for the record, I don't think you are highminded Sunesis but I do believe that the doctrine of the supposed mystery as we've been taught is actually the product of unwise highmindedness and tends to produce the same.
Romans ch8: (everything in KJV from here on out)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast , thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off , that I might be graffed in .
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded , but fear :
21 For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off .
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in : for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in .
26 And so all Israel shall be saved : as it is written , There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer , and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
I think it is unwise to think that Paul hadn't understood our supposed mystery when he wrote Romans.
After reading these verses I conclude that as a gentile believer that Paul warns me to not think that I am in any way immune to what happened to the portion of Israel that has been blinded, albeit temporarily so. Heck he directly says that it is no problem to graft them back in again, even saying if we don't continue in His Goodness, "otherwise thou also shalt be cut off", pretty direct warning, yes?
And as concerning vs. 25, 26, & 27, ISN'T THIS THE EXACT SAME THING WE HAVE IN CHRIST? We appropriate Christ w/in the new covenant taking away our sin easy enough, heck, most people consider that truth as Christianity 101, but here Paul say THE EXACT SAME BLESSINGS ARE YET TO COME TO ISRAEL AS A WHOLE.
Didn't I just show not only that we have appropriated God's promise to Israel, but also that God will yet give the exact same blessing to Israel as a whole?
CHECK THIS OUT........
EPHESIANS 2
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Ephesians 3
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
_________________
Isn't Paul's ENTIRE point here that this mystery is that the Gentiles would be FELLOWHEIRS!
Christ's promises were there already, and just because most of Israel is presently blinded to Christ does not mean they weren't given the promise of his blessing already, heck, do we need to show the HUNDREDS of promises that were to Israel alone until it was made clear through Paul and others that the gentiles were to be brought into this blessing completely and fully, The vail was tore between the gentiles and the court of Israel, right?
Check out verse 42....IT IS THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION THAT GET THE HEAVENLY/SPIRITUAL BODY! The earthly body we all have, now in this age, BUT THE HEAVENLY BODIES BELONG TO THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION.
And one more consideration, if Paul didn't want the Corinthians to actually look forward to their heavenly bodies without the resurrection then what was he doing teaching the believers about the resurrection soooo darn much?
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him , and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men , another flesh of beasts , another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Picking up where this left off....1 Co 15
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
____________________
To me, these verses make it plain to me that the proper application of earthly vs. heavenly/spiritual bodies is a reference to what we will recieve at the time of our resurrection.
IMO here, the mystery Paul is refering to is that we won't all be dead at the time of the resurrection. I don't need to spiritualize it or paint a vast imaginary picture with the word mystery. he explained it to them right then and that PARTICULAR bit of insider info needn't remain a mystery to them anymore. To me the only mystery left is wondering why other than being misled would anybody insist this passage is not referring to the resurrection, it even says so. (SEE VS. 42)
Yep, many families/mansions. But that doesn't mean we can go all willy-nilly and decide how it will look without at least one apostle or prophet actually saying it directly, right?
Even Satan is in subjection to God. . .and God is not depending on us to extinguish the darkness. . . He does however, allow us to share the glorious light of the gospel of Christ.
Sometimes I think even the highest understanding of God we can have....doesn't scratch the surface.
Thanks for the response.
Take Care
I don't think Satan is in subjection to God at this time. He seems to be doing pretty much what he wants to
As to The light of the world being Christ, he himself said this
John 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Matthew 5:14-16 (King James Version)
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Revelation 21:22 23
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
As long as I am in the world.
he was
he will be again
he isn't now
I really think it's supposed to be us now. I still think we're not really good at it.
Still, if Jesus was wrong, we've go it easy,... who am I to complain
If the Satan is in subjection to God, God don't do a real good job subjugating him.
Who then has the power of death? God and if so why did he kill my mom and dad
Oh I think Satan is out there and rather unsubjugated,... honestly
I don't think Satan is in subjection to God at this time. He seems to be doing pretty much what he wants to
As to The light of the world being Christ, he himself said this
John 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Matthew 5:14-16 (King James Version)
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Revelation 21:22 23
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
As long as I am in the world.
he was
he will be again
he isn't now
I really think it's supposed to be us now. I still think we're not really good at it.
Still, if Jesus was wrong, we've go it easy,... who am I to complain
If the Satan is in subjection to God, God don't do a real good job subjugating him.
Who then has the power of death? God and if so why did he kill my mom and dad
Oh I think Satan is out there and rather unsubjugated,... honestly
Nicely said Gen,
“God of this Age” means…well “God of this age” and we’re still in it. Now “greater is the one who is in you” still means what it says, but are we out there doing our own “demonstration of the spirit and power” enough…no.
It is on us, and the Christ in us and our collaboration with other spiritual beings who are assigned their portion in this world. We are not without weapons.
I’m sorry about your parents. Really sorry. Is there anything my wife and I might help you with? We're not living in a "fair" world or age.
I think both Katie and Mary have said it right in part.....
________________________
2 Co 12:
7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Paul had to deal with buffeting from Satan, and He besought the Lord to remove this trouble. God didn't tell him ok, even though God might have IMO. Paul decided for his walk, that he would be happy seeing Christ's power in him as a result of this situation.
_________________________
Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
This makes it plain to me that we too can win yet I'm certain the once and for all crushing belongs to the Lord and hasn't happened yet, but perhaps in part through the resurrection of Christ, yes?
__________________
1 Co 15
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Death may be the LAST enemy destroyed but even though the Lord Himself beat death apparently the fullness of that job is yet to come. I think it is similar as concerning satan.
__________________
I'm just hoping for the best for you Katie, that you find solid ground to stand on as I've said before and still feel so.
Satan got (edited :)) God's permission with Job...to sift Peter.....btw, is this a contest to see how low we can hold God in esteem? How high we can elevate our understanding?
Who or what are we putting our faith in? God, or what we think we see as happening in the world?
God's purposes are not thwarted by Satan. Have never been thwarted by Satan, our opinions, or our limited knowledge of Him.
I wouldn't assume that someone who puts their faith in God..believes Satan to be more powerful? That would be a serious contradiction.
That God would somehow be in subjection to Satan's authority?
Daniel
4:17 " 'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'
Gen 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.
Just because someone means something for bad...doesn't mean God can't use it for good....for HIS glory. THINK!! Just consider what that means? Please.
Let's glorify God together here and recognize something about Him.....God is all good...all holy....perfect.....no darkness.....righteous(meaning right)and love, and God's glory is not diminished by evil. God's glory and being are not in subjection to evil.......but, evil, Satan, is in subjection to that perfection and glory......
Satan is already judged? Who judged him? Satan is A CREATED BEING.
Submit yourselves to God....resist the devil and he will flee.
I wouldn't even think you would have to "study" this....knowing who God is....is enough.
The light of the world too? Is this a trick? Are you playing with me?
......in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Satan got (edited ) God's permission with Job...to sift Peter.....btw, is this a contest to see how low we can hold God in esteem? How high we can elevate our understanding?
Who or what are we putting our faith in? God, or what we think we see as happening in the world?
God's purposes are not thwarted by Satan. Have never been thwarted by Satan, our opinions, or our limited knowledge of Him.
I wouldn't assume that someone who puts their faith in God..believes Satan to be more powerful? That would be a serious contradiction.
That God would somehow be in subjection to Satan's authority?
Daniel
4:17 " 'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'
Gen 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.
Just because someone means something for bad...doesn't mean God can't use it for good....for HIS glory. THINK!! Just consider what that means? Please.
Let's glorify God together here and recognize something about Him.....God is all good...all holy....perfect.....no darkness.....righteous(meaning right)and love, and God's glory is not diminished by evil. God's glory and being are not in subjection to evil.......but, evil, Satan, is in subjection to that perfection and glory......
Satan is already judged? Who judged him? Satan is A CREATED BEING.
Submit yourselves to God....resist the devil and he will flee.
I wouldn't even think you would have to "study" this....knowing who God is....is enough.
Obviously people die. I've been taught God doesn't murder or kill and that the devil has the power of death.
I believe the Devil is subject to God - But not subjugated (as you said).
You're being so patronizing and mocking me.
Apparently you forgot something and continued in a following post.
You probably know more than me about this stuff Geisha. I don't know if God gives the devil licence to kill only on request, as in your example with Job. I don't know how that's done, or if God's done this with the bulk of Humanity. If He has, then NO, I wouldn't want to worship Him.
But I do know that the Devil hasn't already been judged, and neither have we.
Obviously people die. I've been taught God doesn't murder or kill and that the devil has the power of death.
I believe the Devil is subject to God - But not subjugated (as you said).
You're being so patronizing and mocking me.
Apparently you forgot something and continued in a following post.
You probably know more than me about this stuff Geisha. I don't know if God gives the devil licence to kill only on request, as in your example with Job. I don't know how that's done, or if God's done this with the bulk of Humanity. If He has, then NO, I wouldn't want to worship Him.
But I do know that the Devil hasn't already been judged, and neither have we.
Katie,
I was answering the posts following yours....I left you with a smile.....and I wasn't mocking anyone....it was a deadly serious question. Satan is not in subjection to God? Christ is not the light of the world? Sometimes when I read here....I feel like I fell down the rabbit hole.
BTW, in all sincerity, how does being subject to God differ from being in subjection to God?
The end has been written for Satan.....he has been judged, yet, his end has not come. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. There is no repentance and forgiveness for Satan. He knew God completely...and rejected Him.
People are already condemned....what happens to a non-repentant unsaved person, according to scripture? Why do we need salvation? We are already judged.....all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God......but, we can be saved from that judgment. Saved from what? Saved from whom? Who are we saved from? Tell me what we are saved from? The wrath of God?
Satan does steal, kill, and destroy..... yet, God can use the evil meant....for good....for His purpose and His glory. Look at the cross.
Just like when we are tried......God doesn't tempt us with evil....yet, trials build our faith. We are to rejoice in them. How? How does that work?
Why did Job have to suffer and btw Job never knew why.....he was never told....he had a choice to go the way of his wife....curse God and die.....miserable comforters.........or his final deliverance...I have heard of thee with the hearing of mine ear, but now mine eyes see thee....I repent in sack cloth and ashes....who am I to question God. Did Job do anything to deserve his suffering? God said he was a good man. Did God allow Job to suffer? Yep. What blessing came from that? He saw GOD!!
Why was Peter sifted? Why did Jesus have to suffer? Why do we partake in His suffering?
Why do some people give their very lives for Christ so others can believe? What is the greater good that comes from that? They are dead....but, is that the end?
Death is the enemy, it isn't even "natural".. . .but, the good news is........Jesus overcame death. That is the gospel, the light!
Death is painful, horrible, and it hurts us to lose those we love. Grief is real. I don't have to tell you that..... but, is that the end of the story? IF it is....God is not sovereign over death. I lost a 4 year old child to disease Katie, I know grief.
We suffer here....but, set before us is a greater hope. Jesus overcame these things already......no? What happened on that cross?
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Why do we groan? We are subject to futility....why? And even better HOW?
All things came together in Jesus Christ.....
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
As uncomfortable as it is to our ego's there is no way to God, except through Jesus Christ.....the cross....our real struggle is not doctrinal....or even intellectual...it is with the idea of dependence. . ..something that challenges us to surrender our autonomy is unacceptable. But, God, can use all things to bring us to the place we DO surrender.
Freedom in surrender, mourning to be happy, hungering to be filled.....
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.
Every single day unto the last. Formed for me. By God.
. ...and if in this life only we have hope in Christ.....we are of ALL men most miserable. I didn't say God kills.....I said Satan is in subjection to GOd....the final chapter has not come....God is patient....but, the longsuffering of God works out for our salvation.
What happens when a tower falls, or an earthquake hits, or a tornado rips through town......who do people cry out to? Did God cause the tornado? No....but, it stirs within us the need for God....when things are going great.....God is the last thing people think about......He can USE bad for good.
God has a greater purpose in suffering.....but then again, we have such a greater hope.
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
7Do ye look on things after the outward appearance?
We have to look at things through God's lens in Christ.....that is where we see God's sovereignity.....God has it under control....we put our faith in Him through Jesus Christ. Here is the battle, we didn't see Jesus Christ.....we do see suffering.....but, it isn't about our best life now......
The man born blind.......is a perfect illustration....he was born blind for God's glory......that whole chapter goes through man's reasoning on suffering. Everyone has an opinion....as to why...but the really amazing part of that account is....in the end....they just denied it ever happened!! What they saw with their eyes was not real.
God is not held captive to Satan, He uses all things for good, so we can see.....His higher ways, His mercy, His GRACE.....His glory.....because THAT is the better thing...where the joy comes....where the peace comes. . .the delight....the worship. In God as He is.
Do you know what I am saying? It is a higher calling. We have a high calling.
I think we may fight these answers because they don't elevate man's wisdom..... they elevate God. God is not sitting idle while the world is spinning out of control. He has a plan....HE has a purpose.....and He delivers. :)
Oops I forgot Gen-2. I don't know anything more about scripture than you do. We all have bibles and we can read...I simply believe that how we view God....determines how we understand scripture. Makes sense...right?
When Jesus asked the expert in the law..."How do you read it?" The man knew the answer, but also missed the heart behind it. It is God who enlightens. :)
We can have all kinds of knowledge and still not come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ. We were experts at it in TWI IMO.
Working this stuff out is a process...I am still working it out too.
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cman
i am the resurrection sound familiar? the just and unjust the wheat and the tares when Christ comes it will all unfold as it has always
cman
i am the resurrection
sound familiar?
the just and unjust
the wheat and the tares
when Christ comes
it will all unfold
as it has always
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Shellon
When we were in TWI I had a dream that repeated itself about 8 times that I recall. I was back in my home town for some reason on a side street across from the house I grew up in, running.
There were people every flippin' where, some running, some walking, all in different states of emotional highs and lows. Children were seperated from parents, odd animals were milling about.
Jumanji !
Yet it didn't feel like chaos, necessarily, just very unsettling and kinda trippy. I slowed to a walk and someone spoke to me; a man in all yellow from head to toe, top hat to yellow shoes. Talk about trippy, I thought I was in a Matthew Lesko commercial.
But he told me in a whisper this was the time, this was it, we were on our way to Heaven right now.
Heaven? What?? Huh? Wait! ! ! Where was my baby (I only had one daughter at the time) and where was my husband and I recall looking for my Chocolate Lab amonst the 4 legged wanderers. If this was the Gathering Together, I wanted to do something else. Then I remembered my broher Paul, who's gay.
I then realized that some were running in one direction and others in, well, another. Heaven bound and Hell bound? Not the way I understood it, but dreams are weird. I didn't know where to look for Paul and it became, suddenly, even more important than looking for my husband and daughter. I found him sitting on a little white stool like grandpa used in the cow barn to milk. Just sitting there, smoking a cigarette, grinning at me. Sit down sis, just like he always said upon our greetings.
I told him we had to go, this was IT! and I tried to get him to rise and come with me, who knew how long before the Closed Sign would be put on on both places. He wouldn't comply and someone hollared "leave him, he can't go anyway".
I kept pulling on him, he kept pulling back, refusing to come with his amazing sister and someone kept hollaring we had to go. I turned and walked from him and went somewhere, hopefully to Heaven, but hey, who knows, the way I cuss
The way TWI taught stuff, yeah. Rewards and punishments, yeah.
The dream never returned again after I asked him for his forgiveness for treating him less than wonderful as my brother while I was in TWI and he accepted my apology and forgave me.
I wonder where my other brothers were.
Commercial over and thank you
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Steve Lortz
I think you meant to type "Romans ch11:" there, bro!
We started examing "Exegesis versus Eisegesis" in Romans 11, and we'll get back there yet.
Love,
Steve
Edited by Steve LortzLink to comment
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Gen-2
That "All things" phrase pertains to this earth the one which is now.
When it ends, All Things about it get settled, and All things go back to God's control
He (God) launches the new Heaven and the new Earth
He (God) makes Christ the light of that world
By this time, we shall know even as we also are known and we will have power
But every star differs in glory and That how it will be with us, Still,...
We will imitate Our Father, and strive to do what He does.
But insofar as worship goes, there is only one that is Good, and that is God
As his children we will do those things that please our Father
Any Glory will be to God
But "all things" is not the end of things
There will be new things.
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geisha779
I was reading a reference to the stars differing in glory the other day. I wish I could find it, but it is pretty similar to what you are saying. The writer likened it to bronze, silver, and gold. It was fascinating.
BTW Isn't Christ already is the light of the world? :)
Don't all things get put in subjection to Christ who then hands them to the Father? I probably have a different take on being glorified....sharing in Christs suffering in this life and sharing in God's glory...but, it is so interesting to me on how you speak of time and space....I love that stuff. It is so perspective building.
Here is an article you might enjoy about God's glory. I always think it will be different than any of us believe.
http://bible.org/seriespage/glory-god-romans-830
. . . We have come to the conclusion of Paul’s words in verses 28-30, to the culmination of the process God purposed in eternity past, and to the highest good known to man. Our glorification is the conclusion of the process Paul has been describing. It is the “good” of which Paul has spoken in verse 28. Because our glorification is so little understood, we will pursue at length this theme through the Bible.
Essentially there are but two kinds of glory in this world. There is the matchless, untarnished glory of God, and there is the tarnished, temporary glory of man. If we would understand our glorification, we must understand it in the context of the glory of God and against the backdrop of man’s glory.
The theme of the glory of God is best understood as it has been revealed. God has progressively revealed to us the doctrine of His glory, of its hope and promise for all who are the sons of God, and of its terror for all others. We will therefore endeavor to trace the theme of God’s glory from eternity past to eternity future. Only then can we understand the magnitude of that glorification which yet awaits those of us who know God in Christ.
We will consider the premises which should guide and govern our study, as well as the conclusions we will reach, before we begin to study the glory of God. These premises enumerated here are based upon the teaching of Paul in the Book of Romans.
(1) Glory and glorification must be understood in relationship to each other. Our glorification is to be understood in the light of Paul’s teaching about glory in Romans.
(2) Our glorification, while spoken of in the past tense, is yet future.
(3) Our glorification involves the redemption of our bodies and our adoption as sons (8:17-25; 9:4).
(4) Our glorification is certain (5:2), yet unseen (8:24-25).
(5) Our present suffering is preparatory and prerequisite to our future glorification (5:17).
(6) Our future glorification is God’s promised reward for the righteous, the “glory” of which Paul writes in Romans 2:7 and 10.
(7) Our future glorification is an extension or expression of God’s glory (5:2).
(8) The glory is that which God promised Israel and which Paul still speaks of as belonging to Israel (Romans 9:4).
Having set these premises before us, let us now trace the “glory of God” through the ages as described in the Bible. No more noble endeavor will ever come our way. Let us ask God to open our hearts and minds to His glory. It is indeed a transforming subject.
Satan was a magnificent being with a splendor second only to His Creator. But his reflected, secondary glory was not enough for him. He wanted more. He wanted God’s glory (Isaiah 14:12-14). Because of his greed for glory, Satan fell. All history is evidence of his continuing effort to tempt men to pursue a “God-like glory,” not by trusting in God but by striving to be like God.
When God made the heavens and the earth, He created Adam and Eve in His image. They were to reflect God’s image and His glory by ruling over creation. Satan tempted them to reach for a greater glory, the glory of being like God (see Genesis 3:5). When they followed Satan and disobeyed God, Adam and Eve fell, and all mankind fell with them (see Romans 5:12-21).
God created the universe as a showcase by which He could display His glory. Men were to see God’s glory in nature, and were obliged to glorify Him in worship. They refused, choosing rather to exchange the glory of God for a lesser glory, one which was like unto their own image. Because of this, men have shown themselves to be worthy of divine condemnation (Romans 1:18-23).
In the beginning, God’s glory was reflected in His creation and in man. Sin has tarnished the reflection of God’s glory. God chose a people to whom and through whom He could display His glory—the nation Israel. God’s glory was evident in His deliverance of the Israelites from Egyptian bondage (Numbers 14:22). It was evident in the wilderness, especially when the people sought to rebel against God (Exodus 16:7, 10; Numbers 14:10; 16:19, 42). God’s glory was revealed at Mt. Sinai, when He gave the Law to Moses (Exodus 24:16-17). It was also evident in the garments of the priest (Exodus 28:2, 40). It filled the tent of meeting (Exodus 29:42-43; 40:34-35; see also Leviticus 9:6, 23). Seeing God’s glory was the highest ambition and desire of Moses, a desire which God granted to him, in part (Exodus 33:18–34:8). When Israel went to war, God’s glory accompanied them in conjunction with the ark (see 1 Samuel 4:21-22).
Israel’s sin resulted in the manifestation of God’s glory in judgment (Exodus 16:7, 10; Numbers 14:10; 16:19, 42). Eventually God removed His glory from the midst of this people, as a judgment for their persistent sin (see 1 Samuel 4:21-22). When the tabernacle was replaced by the temple, the glory of God filled it (1 Chronicles 16:10; 2 Chronicles 7:1-3).
Israel’s glory was her God (1 Samuel 15:29). Glory belonged only to Him (1 Chronicles 29:11). Israel’s response to God’s glory was to glorify Him in worship (1 Chronicles 16:29). Even sinners were to give glory to God (see Joshua 7:19; 1 Samuel 6:5). Israel was not to worship idols because this would give glory to mere images, rather than to God. But beyond glorifying God in worship, Israel was to tell the nations of God’s glory (1 Chronicles 16:24). This is the heart of evangelism, then and now.
Israel did not glorify God. They turned from the God of glory to man-made idols. They did not obey His law. Justice and mercy were forgotten; worse yet, they were trampled under foot. Through His prophets, God admonished His people but they would not listen. God warned of a coming day of judgment at the hand of heathen nations. Beyond the day of God’s judgment was a day of redemption and restoration. There would come a time when Israel would be brought to repentance. God would then rule over them and even over the other nations.
All of this was described in various ways in the prophets. One of the prominent themes in the prophets was that of the glory of God. The theme of the glory of God as related to Israel’s sin, her judgment, and then her deliverance and future restoration are described by the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. Below are a sampling of the verses which play out the theme of God’s glory:
Israel’s Sin Against God’s Glory
And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory” (Isaiah 6:3).
For Jerusalem has stumbled, and Judah has fallen, Because their speech and their actions are against the Lord, To rebel against His glorious presence (Isaiah 3:8).
“I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images” (Isaiah 42:8).
“‘For as the waistband clings to the waist of a man, so I made the whole household of Israel and the whole household of Judah cling to Me,’ declares the Lord, ‘that they might be for Me a people, for renown, for praise, and for glory; but they did not listen’” (Jeremiah 13:11).
God’s Glory Requires His Judgment of Israel’s Sin
“Now therefore, behold, the Lord is about to bring on them the strong and abundant waters of the Euphrates, Even the king of Assyria and all his glory; And it will rise up over all its channels and go over all its banks” (Isaiah 8:7).
Now it will come about in that day that the glory of Jacob will fade, And the fatness of his flesh will become lean (Isaiah 17:4).
How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He has cast from heaven to earth The glory of Israel, And has not remembered His footstool In the day of His anger (Lamentations 2:1).
God’s Glory and the Overthrow of the Nations Which Were His Chastening Rod
And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah (Isaiah 13:19).
But now the Lord speaks, saying, “Within three years, as a hired man would count them, the glory of Moab will be degraded along with all his great population, and his remnant will be very small and impotent” (Isaiah 16:14).
“The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim, And sovereignty from Damascus And the remnant of Aram; They will be like the glory of the sons of Israel,” Declares the Lord of hosts (Isaiah 17:3).
God’s Glory and the Restoration of Israel
In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel (Isaiah 4:2).
Then the Lord will create over the whole area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy (Isaiah 4:5).
But there will be no more gloom for her who was in anguish; in earlier times He treated the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt, but later on He shall make it glorious, by the way of the sea, on the other side of Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles (Isaiah 9:1).
Then it will come about in that day That the nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious (Isaiah 11:10).
Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the Lord of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders (Isaiah 24:23).
In that day the Lord of hosts will become a beautiful crown And a glorious diadem to the remnant of His people (Isaiah 28:5).
The Nations Will Glorify God
Therefore a strong people will glorify Thee; Cities of ruthless nations will revere Thee (Isaiah 25:3).
“And you will swear, ‘As the Lord lives,’ In truth, in justice, and in righteousness; Then the nations will bless themselves in Him, And in Him they will glory” (Jeremiah 4:2).
All Creation Will Glorify God
“The beasts of the field will glorify Me; The jackals and the ostriches; Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people” (Isaiah 43:20).
Shout for joy, O heavens, for the Lord has done it! Shout joyfully, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into a shout of joy, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it; For the Lord has redeemed Jacob And in Israel He shows forth His glory (Isaiah 44:23).
Before leaving the theme of the glory of God in the Old Testament, several important observations should be stressed:
First, Israel’s glory was to share in the glory of God. Israel did not have a glory of her own. Israel was, by divine design, established for the glory of God. God’s presence among His people was glory to Israel. The righteousness of God manifested in and through His people was the glory of God.
“In the Lord all the offspring of Israel will be justified, and will glory” (Isaiah 45:25).
“No longer will you have the sun for light by day, Nor for brightness will the moon give you light; But you will have the Lord for an everlasting light, And your God for your glory” (Isaiah 60:19).
“I bring near My righteousness, it is not far off; And My salvation will not delay. And I will grant salvation in Zion, and My glory for Israel” (Isaiah 46:13).
Second, God’s glory is as evident in His judgment of sin as it is in the manifestation of His righteousness through His people. When Israel sinned, they were unrighteous. This did not glorify God. God’s glory was therefore manifested in His wrath toward sin. Whether in her obedience or in her disobedience, God would be glorified through His people, Israel.
Third, Israel’s glory was not to be hoarded but to be shared with and by the other nations. Israel quickly began to think of her glory as her glory. While God would not share His glory with any other “gods,” Israel was to share her glory with the nations. This she refused to do. When God spoke of the glory that was to come, Israel would be glorified, but the nations would also have a share in it.
Behold, you will call a nation you do not know, And a nation which knows you not will run to you, Because of the Lord your God, even the Holy One of Israel; For He has glorified you (Isaiah 55:5).
Surely the coastlands will wait for Me; And the ships of Tarshish will come first, To bring your sons from afar, Their silver and their gold with them, For the name of the Lord your God, And for the Holy One of Israel because He has glorified you (Isaiah 60:9).
For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory. And I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Rosh, Tubal, and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations (Isaiah 66:18-19).
Fourth, Israel’s glory would ultimately be brought about by Messiah Who would first suffer and then enter into His glory. Israel, God’s servant, failed. She had proven that she was unable to be the servant God required. The Messiah was to take Israel’s place and to become the Suffering Servant. Only in Him could Israel be justified. Only in Him could Israel be glorified:
Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street. A bruised reed He will not break, And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not be disheartened or crushed, Until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law (Isaiah 42:1-4; see also 52:13-15; 53:1-12).
Christ: God’s Glory Revealed in the Flesh
Our Lord Jesus Christ is God’s revelation of His glory. If the creation manifests the glory of God, far more does the One who created it—God manifested in the flesh:
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1:14).
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Hebrews 1:3).
It is no wonder that glory accompanied the announcements of Christ’s coming:
And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened (Luke 2:9).
“Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased” (Luke 2:14).
“A light of revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Thy people Israel” (Luke 2:32).
This “glory” of our Lord was often veiled during the days of our Lord upon the earth. It could be seen by His mighty deeds,215 and by His character, but most were unable to see it, even His disciples. And so, from time to time, God lifted the veil. Such was the case at our Lord’s transfiguration:
Who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him (Luke 9:31-32).
Throughout His earthly life, Jesus did not seek men’s glory but rather He sought to glorify His Father.216 In His high priestly prayer for His disciples in those last hours before His crucifixion, Jesus prayed:
“And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was” (John 17:5).
“And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given to them; that they may be one, just as We are one” (John 17:22).
“Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24).
Because the nation Israel had rejected God, they also rejected His Son. They crucified Him, nailing Him to the cross of Calvary. By means of His innocent suffering and death, God provided the only means by which sinners could be saved. Jesus bore the wrath of God in the sinner’s place. Jesus provided the righteousness of God, which the sinner could never produce. Because of His suffering, God glorified the Lord Jesus:
Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:9-11).
The glory of our Lord has its present dimensions for which the Christian can now rejoice.
But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory on account of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).
But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18).
We who have seen the glory of God in Christ have also been given the privilege of proclaiming the glory of God displayed in the gospel:
In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6).
We have the privilege while waiting for the coming of His glory to live our lives to His glory:
For all things are for your sakes, that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God (2 Corinthians 4:15).
Wherefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God (Romans 15:7).
As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker among you; as for our brethren, they are messengers of the churches, a glory to Christ (2 Corinthians 8:23).
We, along with Israel of old, look forward to the full revelation of the glory of God in His kingdom at the return of our Lord Jesus Christ:
When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory (Colossians 3:4).
Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus (Titus 2:13).
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed (1 Peter 5:1).
After these things I heard, as it were, a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God (Revelation 19:1).
And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. And the nations shall walk by its light, and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it (Revelation 21:23-24).
Conclusion
Having briefly traced the theme of the glory of God through the Scriptures, we may now draw some conclusions as to the meaning of “glorified” in Roman 8:30.
(1) To be glorified is to enter into the blessings of the full glory of God which we now experience in part.
(2) To be glorified is to receive our adoption as sons and the redemption of our bodies.
(3) To be glorified is to be free from the corruption of sin and death.
(4) To be glorified is to experience the goal for which we were chosen, called, and justified.
(5) To be glorified is to obtain that “good” for which God has been causing all things to work together (Romans 8:28).
(6) To be glorified is to have a share in the glory which belongs to Israel.
A number of implications which have very practical outworkings in our daily lives may be drawn from our text.
The glorification of the believer is a sure and certain hope. As Paul said earlier, “we exult in hope of the glory of God” (Romans 5:2). God purposed and promised it. God is sovereign, and He controls each step in His program to assure that it is accomplished. God’s reputation and glory are at stake. All three of the crucial verbs in our text are in the past tense: “called,” “justified,” “glorified.” Even though this final step of glorification is still future, it is a certain hope.
God is the One who is at work. He is the One who is the subject of all three verbs: He “called,” He “justified,” He “glorified.” Because God is sovereign, in complete control, His purpose of glorifying us will be accomplished. The certainty of our hope of glory is rooted in the sovereignty of God. Just as we have been called and justified, so we shall be glorified. God’s infinite wisdom and power are in control. God’s plan is progressing toward that goal.
Some try to motivate Christian service and faithfulness by fear, doubt, and guilt. Paul never does, and neither does any writer of the sacred Scriptures. The security of the believer and the certainty of glory is the basis for faithful service.
The glory of God is the highest good. We must always view our good as subordinate to the glory of God. We must make the glory of God our ultimate goal. Our glory is always subordinate to His glory. Our glory is His glory. There will always be a “vain glory,” a glory which Satan promotes and which men pursue, but this is not the glory of God. Let us, like Moses, yearn to see His glory and to seek it as our highest good.
The glory of God is the standard for our every thought and deed. If we seek a guiding principle for our lives, let the glory of God be of paramount importance. Whatever we do, it should be to the glory of God: “Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31).
The glory of God is the perspective from which life should be viewed and lived out. Satan would have us seek our own glory and the glory which men give one another. God would have us seek His glory alone. Seeking the glory of God gives us a perspective by which all of life can be viewed. In the context of Romans 8, the glory of God is that which gives the Christian hope and confidence in the midst of our sufferings and groanings. Elsewhere, Paul tells us that the glory of God makes our present sufferings seem insignificant:
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven; inasmuch as we, having put it on, shall not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in order that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—for we walk by faith, not by sight—we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him (2 Corinthians 4:16–5:9).
The glory of God helps explain a command of Scripture which many find distasteful. More than ever (due to the current drift of our culture), Christian women are perplexed and even distressed at Paul’s command that women refrain from a prominent leadership role in the church. The following texts are usually the source of their dismay:
Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? (1 Corinthians 14:34-36).
Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression. But women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint (1 Timothy 2:11-15).
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word; they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. And let not your adornment be merely external—braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God (1 Peter 3:1-4).
I believe that the “glory of God” gives us the perspective which not only explains the reason for this biblical imperative but can also give us joy in obeying it. Note the way in which Paul uses the term glory in this text:
But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying, disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head; for she is one and the same with her whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God (1 Corinthians 11:3-16).
Many efforts have been made to explain this text. Many have failed. In spite of this, I urge you to reconsider Paul’s words in this text in the light of our study of the glory of God. God alone is worthy of glory. God prohibits men from giving glory to anyone or anything other than Himself, yet He does grant us a share in His glory. Satan, on the other hand, wants to tempt us to seek our own glory rather than to give glory to God. He even tried to tempt our Lord to pursue a lesser glory:
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory; (Matthew 4:8).
If we view God’s glory as the highest good, our highest good, then we will not seek any lesser glory. We will gladly give to God the preeminence, position, and praise which He alone deserves. This is precisely the premise on which the New Testament writers base their instruction to Christian women. God has given men the task of reflecting His glory. They are therefore to assume positions of leadership and preeminence in the church. Women are to reflect the believer’s response to the glory of God. They are not to seek that which gives them glory but are to gladly conduct themselves in a way that focuses the glory on their husbands. The husband then uses his glory for the benefit of his wife. This is but a picture of God’s relationship with His children.
Why is there such an outcry today about this biblical instruction? I would like to suggest that there are at least three reasons. First, our culture is adamantly opposed to God’s ways. Second, Christians have become enticed to seek their own glory as though it were a virtue, rather than a vice. Finally, they have completely failed to understand the command that women avoid preeminence (including leading and teaching men and getting attention from their clothing or demeanor), in the light of God’s teaching on glory. The doctrine of God’s glory should cause one to delight in surrendering that which we do not deserve and seeking by this to glorify God. God’s glory gives us a new perspective concerning any glory we might seek for ourselves.
Paul’s words, found in the eleventh chapter of Romans, provide us with our concluding thought to hold in our minds: “For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen” (Romans 11:36).
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Gen-2
Indeed he is, but he's absent and the Devil is running the kingdoms of this world. So he's the light that's on somewhere else.
You can make the arguement that he is present through us, lighting the world, but we haven't exactly figured out how to extinguish darkness on a reliable basis.
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geisha779
Katie,
Even Satan is in subjection to God. . .and God is not depending on us to extinguish the darkness. . . He does however, allow us to share the glorious light of the gospel of Christ.
Sometimes I think even the highest understanding of God we can have....doesn't scratch the surface.
Thanks for the response. :)
Take Care
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Bolshevik
Extinguish darkness? . . . Maybe in the Cult of Zero . . .
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Composer
The irony for those who (wrongly) believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan, is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to story book Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for story book Jesus in story book Revelation 22:16.
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Gen-2
Actually it makes perfect sense if you understand it, why both are referred to with the word light.
But certainly, you don't believe in the "storybook" as you call it, so you don't believe in the existence of Lucifer. Thefore,you're just argueing points you deny and being silly. That is, of course, unless you have your own version of "srtorybook" characters. If so start a thread.
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cman
Some how this is 'who will god choose to gather'.
As if we have a choice of when and how.
Any separating is done within yourself.
Not one person from another.
Give that a shot.
In time we each face the forgiveness of fire.
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JeffSjo
At first I didn't know what to make of you Cman, but it became easy for me to appreciate your voice and enjoyable too because it is sooooo far from Way formulated scripture studies that somehow manage to lay out truth in a very anal retentive style yet somehow still managed to twist, and butcher many topics. :)
after considering your posts a few things came up for me....
#1 gathering of wheat....and tares.
-resurrection of just....and unjust
Even though these events are going to be one time future events on the Lord's table (so-to-speak) that in the mean time we all are setting the table for him. Decisions are now, accountability starts now, and the table has been being set for him for all history also in-the-now of whatever moment in history we may be referring to.
Also...
He will gather together...
-He is the resurrection...
One is action, one is object, but he is and does each. They are the same,HIM.
(edited for the sake of clarity)
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JeffSjo
CHECK THIS OUT........
EPHESIANS 2
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Ephesians 3
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
_________________
Isn't Paul's ENTIRE point here that this mystery is that the Gentiles would be FELLOWHEIRS!
Christ's promises were there already, and just because most of Israel is presently blinded to Christ does not mean they weren't given the promise of his blessing already, heck, do we need to show the HUNDREDS of promises that were to Israel alone until it was made clear through Paul and others that the gentiles were to be brought into this blessing completely and fully, The vail was tore between the gentiles and the court of Israel, right?
Picking up where this left off....1 Co 15
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
____________________
To me, these verses make it plain to me that the proper application of earthly vs. heavenly/spiritual bodies is a reference to what we will recieve at the time of our resurrection.
IMO here, the mystery Paul is refering to is that we won't all be dead at the time of the resurrection. I don't need to spiritualize it or paint a vast imaginary picture with the word mystery. he explained it to them right then and that PARTICULAR bit of insider info needn't remain a mystery to them anymore. To me the only mystery left is wondering why other than being misled would anybody insist this passage is not referring to the resurrection, it even says so. (SEE VS. 42)
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Gen-2
I don't think Satan is in subjection to God at this time. He seems to be doing pretty much what he wants to
As to The light of the world being Christ, he himself said this
John 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Matthew 5:14-16 (King James Version)
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Revelation 21:22 23
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
As long as I am in the world.
he was
he will be again
he isn't now
I really think it's supposed to be us now. I still think we're not really good at it.
Still, if Jesus was wrong, we've go it easy,... who am I to complain
If the Satan is in subjection to God, God don't do a real good job subjugating him.
Who then has the power of death? God and if so why did he kill my mom and dad
Oh I think Satan is out there and rather unsubjugated,... honestly
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roberterasmus
Nicely said Gen,
“God of this Age” means…well “God of this age” and we’re still in it. Now “greater is the one who is in you” still means what it says, but are we out there doing our own “demonstration of the spirit and power” enough…no.
It is on us, and the Christ in us and our collaboration with other spiritual beings who are assigned their portion in this world. We are not without weapons.
I’m sorry about your parents. Really sorry. Is there anything my wife and I might help you with? We're not living in a "fair" world or age.
In him,
Bob
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JeffSjo
I think both Katie and Mary have said it right in part.....
________________________
2 Co 12:
7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Paul had to deal with buffeting from Satan, and He besought the Lord to remove this trouble. God didn't tell him ok, even though God might have IMO. Paul decided for his walk, that he would be happy seeing Christ's power in him as a result of this situation.
_________________________
Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
This makes it plain to me that we too can win yet I'm certain the once and for all crushing belongs to the Lord and hasn't happened yet, but perhaps in part through the resurrection of Christ, yes?
__________________
1 Co 15
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Death may be the LAST enemy destroyed but even though the Lord Himself beat death apparently the fullness of that job is yet to come. I think it is similar as concerning satan.
__________________
I'm just hoping for the best for you Katie, that you find solid ground to stand on as I've said before and still feel so.
JEFF
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geisha779
Satan got (edited :)) God's permission with Job...to sift Peter.....btw, is this a contest to see how low we can hold God in esteem? How high we can elevate our understanding?
Who or what are we putting our faith in? God, or what we think we see as happening in the world?
God's purposes are not thwarted by Satan. Have never been thwarted by Satan, our opinions, or our limited knowledge of Him.
I wouldn't assume that someone who puts their faith in God..believes Satan to be more powerful? That would be a serious contradiction.
That God would somehow be in subjection to Satan's authority?
Daniel
4:17 " 'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'
Gen 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.
Just because someone means something for bad...doesn't mean God can't use it for good....for HIS glory. THINK!! Just consider what that means? Please.
Let's glorify God together here and recognize something about Him.....God is all good...all holy....perfect.....no darkness.....righteous(meaning right)and love, and God's glory is not diminished by evil. God's glory and being are not in subjection to evil.......but, evil, Satan, is in subjection to that perfection and glory......
Satan is already judged? Who judged him? Satan is A CREATED BEING.
Submit yourselves to God....resist the devil and he will flee.
I wouldn't even think you would have to "study" this....knowing who God is....is enough.
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geisha779
The light of the world too? Is this a trick? Are you playing with me?
......in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
6For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Who else lights our way?
Worship and rejoice with me. :)
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Bolshevik
I thought God offered him to Satan . . . Satan begged to go further . . . and God said go for it, limiting how far?
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geisha779
I think the point I was trying to make was Satan had to get permission..... :)
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Bolshevik
I thought maybe you could take it a step further.
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Gen-2
Obviously people die. I've been taught God doesn't murder or kill and that the devil has the power of death.
I believe the Devil is subject to God - But not subjugated (as you said).
You're being so patronizing and mocking me.
Apparently you forgot something and continued in a following post.
You probably know more than me about this stuff Geisha. I don't know if God gives the devil licence to kill only on request, as in your example with Job. I don't know how that's done, or if God's done this with the bulk of Humanity. If He has, then NO, I wouldn't want to worship Him.
But I do know that the Devil hasn't already been judged, and neither have we.
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geisha779
Katie,
I was answering the posts following yours....I left you with a smile.....and I wasn't mocking anyone....it was a deadly serious question. Satan is not in subjection to God? Christ is not the light of the world? Sometimes when I read here....I feel like I fell down the rabbit hole.
BTW, in all sincerity, how does being subject to God differ from being in subjection to God?
The end has been written for Satan.....he has been judged, yet, his end has not come. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. There is no repentance and forgiveness for Satan. He knew God completely...and rejected Him.
People are already condemned....what happens to a non-repentant unsaved person, according to scripture? Why do we need salvation? We are already judged.....all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God......but, we can be saved from that judgment. Saved from what? Saved from whom? Who are we saved from? Tell me what we are saved from? The wrath of God?
Satan does steal, kill, and destroy..... yet, God can use the evil meant....for good....for His purpose and His glory. Look at the cross.
Just like when we are tried......God doesn't tempt us with evil....yet, trials build our faith. We are to rejoice in them. How? How does that work?
Why did Job have to suffer and btw Job never knew why.....he was never told....he had a choice to go the way of his wife....curse God and die.....miserable comforters.........or his final deliverance...I have heard of thee with the hearing of mine ear, but now mine eyes see thee....I repent in sack cloth and ashes....who am I to question God. Did Job do anything to deserve his suffering? God said he was a good man. Did God allow Job to suffer? Yep. What blessing came from that? He saw GOD!!
Why was Peter sifted? Why did Jesus have to suffer? Why do we partake in His suffering?
Why do some people give their very lives for Christ so others can believe? What is the greater good that comes from that? They are dead....but, is that the end?
Death is the enemy, it isn't even "natural".. . .but, the good news is........Jesus overcame death. That is the gospel, the light!
Death is painful, horrible, and it hurts us to lose those we love. Grief is real. I don't have to tell you that..... but, is that the end of the story? IF it is....God is not sovereign over death. I lost a 4 year old child to disease Katie, I know grief.
We suffer here....but, set before us is a greater hope. Jesus overcame these things already......no? What happened on that cross?
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
Why do we groan? We are subject to futility....why? And even better HOW?
All things came together in Jesus Christ.....
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
As uncomfortable as it is to our ego's there is no way to God, except through Jesus Christ.....the cross....our real struggle is not doctrinal....or even intellectual...it is with the idea of dependence. . ..something that challenges us to surrender our autonomy is unacceptable. But, God, can use all things to bring us to the place we DO surrender.
Freedom in surrender, mourning to be happy, hungering to be filled.....
Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.
Every single day unto the last. Formed for me. By God.
. ...and if in this life only we have hope in Christ.....we are of ALL men most miserable. I didn't say God kills.....I said Satan is in subjection to GOd....the final chapter has not come....God is patient....but, the longsuffering of God works out for our salvation.
What happens when a tower falls, or an earthquake hits, or a tornado rips through town......who do people cry out to? Did God cause the tornado? No....but, it stirs within us the need for God....when things are going great.....God is the last thing people think about......He can USE bad for good.
God has a greater purpose in suffering.....but then again, we have such a greater hope.
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
7Do ye look on things after the outward appearance?
We have to look at things through God's lens in Christ.....that is where we see God's sovereignity.....God has it under control....we put our faith in Him through Jesus Christ. Here is the battle, we didn't see Jesus Christ.....we do see suffering.....but, it isn't about our best life now......
The man born blind.......is a perfect illustration....he was born blind for God's glory......that whole chapter goes through man's reasoning on suffering. Everyone has an opinion....as to why...but the really amazing part of that account is....in the end....they just denied it ever happened!! What they saw with their eyes was not real.
God is not held captive to Satan, He uses all things for good, so we can see.....His higher ways, His mercy, His GRACE.....His glory.....because THAT is the better thing...where the joy comes....where the peace comes. . .the delight....the worship. In God as He is.
Do you know what I am saying? It is a higher calling. We have a high calling.
I think we may fight these answers because they don't elevate man's wisdom..... they elevate God. God is not sitting idle while the world is spinning out of control. He has a plan....HE has a purpose.....and He delivers. :)
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geisha779
Oops I forgot Gen-2. I don't know anything more about scripture than you do. We all have bibles and we can read...I simply believe that how we view God....determines how we understand scripture. Makes sense...right?
When Jesus asked the expert in the law..."How do you read it?" The man knew the answer, but also missed the heart behind it. It is God who enlightens. :)
We can have all kinds of knowledge and still not come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ. We were experts at it in TWI IMO.
Working this stuff out is a process...I am still working it out too.
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