Any feedback for me yet as it concerns my response to your thoughts concerning our being partakers of "the resurrection" as oppose to a TWI style "gathering together?"
I know my response is not exhaustiver on the topic, but it seems that the references to "the resurrection" that I've mentioned in the epistles are fairly plain. But from my own experiences it seems a few simple verses can lead to exhaustive re-evaluation at times.
You could add some of your considerations and/or concerns to the thread if you wish. It would add a little to the open character of the thread that I was going for.
If all the children play nice it could be polite. Their might not even be a superhero that feels obliged to jump in and save the day.
I haven't been doing any research or even any reading about these issues lately......sigh......I was just hoping that the considerations that Dot and WW might lead to an open, honest consideration of very important doctrinal points to me.
Well, there is still time.
But now I am going to toss in my perspective on these issues to see if that may break the silence... sheesh guys...how would anyone (like me) know that this is not simply "the silent treatment"?
answer: Because we got back to you concerning this thread that I started or seemed to accept an open invitation to consider these things with you....duh.
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I feel the issue of whether or not the scriptures concerning the "thousand year reign" being added to the scriptures is major for one simple reason. A lot of fundamentalist predictions of future events are based on these once occuring scripture. And without them a lot of things change...such as it would turn the expectation of Ezekiel's prophecies concerning the temple coming to pass into "new heaven and new earth" events and not anything that will happen on earth as we know it now.
And since my tendency is to rely on what the scriptures say MORE than what I think, (what the heck, it is a good goal anyway, but not an easy one to carry out.) the issue of whether or not the scripture was added too is much more serious. For me it represents the possibility of someone messing with what I set as a goal of working from what the scriptures say; as a starting point!
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And as far as the resurrection verses a TWI style gathering together.....
The epistles SAY resurrection.
The gospels teach of a GATHERING.
IN NEITHER GOSPELS OR EPISTLES DOES IT SAY THAT THE EVENTS OF GATHERING AND RESURRECTION ARE DIFFERENT!
So since the scriptures do NOT ACTUALLY SAY THEY ARE DIFFERENT it is left us to consider the matter.
But since I the scriptures in the epistles teach about the resurrection and do not say to look for anything different than what is already taught in the gospels nobody has the right to say that it is commanded by God to look for anything other than what the scriptures plainly teach.....RESURECTION.
Once I saw this according to the scriptures it was a DUH moment for me that made it very simple to see that I was never correct in believing that Wierwille taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century.
The first century believers were taught the RESURECTION and that the events of "gathering" were as the Lord had already taught in the gospels.
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ONE MORE THING.....WHAT THE HECK IS "RAPTURE"? I tend to try to stick with terminology that scriptures actually say OVER AND OVER AGAIN like RESURECTION.
(edited for spelling)
Have a nice weekend y'all. I'll try to get back Monday.
And thanks to all the jokers who managed to resist the urge to respond to my "What the heck is rapture?" statement. After I thought about my question I realized that it was not hard at all to come up with any number of toungue-in-cheek responses to that one...sigh. And if it was any of you who asked it I would have probably gone their myself.
But even one serious response would have been nice.....
My brother is a gay man and while in twi, during the 1994 disaster toward homosexuals, he and I hid our sibling-hood, twi thinking I'd broken off ties with him. Yup, I lied.
But, and since that might sound like it has nothing to do with your posts here, I think some of it does. And since I usually stay away from discussion on anything religious/doctinal/political my addition here will only be experience stuff. Plus I told Jeff I'd take a peek and while I may lie to TWI, I try to keep my word otherwise.
During this time of sneaking my brother into my life, I had a dream that it was the gathering together time and my baby brother and I were walking along a street in our hometown. There were people in charge of who gets to jump on the train and those that don't and they stopped to pick me up, but not my brother.
I wouldn't go without him. How could I possibly.
Some push and pull and me running down the street to keep up with my brother, whom they seemed intent on not only leaving but killing, I ended up not going where ever it was I was supposed to be allowed to go.
For some reason, this dream has stayed with me where TWI is concerned, where other dreams have gone the way of crappy memory.
This is how I think when I think of the Gathering Together.
There is an awful lot about the gathering that the gospels and the epistles speak of that we will just have to wait and see about. And in TWI we tended to think that our judgement was enough to decide how things will be then.
But when I remember that the Lord who willingly allowed Himself to be crucified for our sins is the only one who's ideas will count I am comforted.
I am comforted when I remember that if we are still breathing we have a chance to change.
I am comforted when I think that the just and true one will surprise many of the rest of us when He has His say.
I expect to see His glory and justice and truth in that day.
I hope your bad dream goes the way of the crappy memories.
Thanks, Jeff, yeah, it's not something I believe, and my brother and I mostly giggle when one says "remember that dream......"
But it did reek of twi's respector of person's gig, to me. Which is why it came up in my rest in the first place; probably 'cuz I was lying about him in my life and it was an issue that I do disagreed with in their doctrine.
Both the homosexuality issue, as well as the respector of persons issue are completely different discussions huh?
Either way, all ways, they suck and we're still left with the questions we started with. Or I am, at least. I do not think my brother will be denied Heaven because of his sexual preferance. Nor does he, so we're good.
What you said is cool to me, I think that it is fine to consider these things for ourselves. Especially as it concerns family and loved ones. Also IMO TWI had this thing so twisted around concerning the gathering that leadership seemed to think that they'd be doing the choosing, not the Lord.
But I really brought this post to the front to get Wordwolf's attention. I thought it would be very, very rude in this case to ignore you dear.
That reminds me.....
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Wordwolf,
It seems that you and I both agree that this topic is a big deal. And since my view has evolved away from TWI teachings I'm thinking that it may seem even bigger for me...so...
What you said is cool to me, I think that it is fine to consider these things for ourselves. Especially as it concerns family and loved ones. Also IMO TWI had this thing so twisted around concerning the gathering that leadership seemed to think that they'd be doing the choosing, not the Lord.
But I really brought this post to the front to get Wordwolf's attention. I thought it would be very, very rude in this case to ignore you dear.
That reminds me.....
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Wordwolf,
It seems that you and I both agree that this topic is a big deal. And since my view has evolved away from TWI teachings I'm thinking that it may seem even bigger for me...so...
Whas'up homie?
Jeff,
This is just to bump this topic so I can get to it.
One of the differences between God and Christ is that Jesus had a beginning. He was born. He grew up, died, and has been raised from the dead. He has everlasting life. -- He's not scheduled to die again.
~~~ I am NOT making any arguement for-or-against the Trinity here ~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But there's this verse (Heb 13:8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
And (Malachi 3:6) For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons .... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. ...
And (Isaiah 57:15) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
And (Deuteronomy 33:27) The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.
And (Psalm 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
And (2 Peter 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
And (Hebrews 10)
09 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
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If Christ inhabits eternity, at God's right hand, and in such a place as where Time is viewed - past, present and future, the one as-easily-as the next. In other words time is not a daily concern, things just >>are<< (without the filter of time to sift one day from the next).
Would you not be able to see things from the past, as easily as from a "present" perspective, or even a future one? I mean, It shouldn't actually matter if the things happened before you were Born, If you were seated in Eternity, at God's right hand. Maybe I'm just too much of a Physicist here.
Anyways. to go further on a discussion of the "gathering",... and Whats & Wheres - and the Whos and the Hows,..... I think the Whens should also be addressed. I mean, it isn't as though God left us ignorant on this. Maybe no one's ever really sought to really put this part together...?
Adding for Clarity: -- If you were in Christ's position at God's right hand, couldn't you gain experiential knowledge of events which occured before you "began" to be? Couldn't you just watch (with your Father),... the past ~~~ as well as any other time?
Just a thought about the time thing....I believe Jesus entered into time from eternity. . . . eternity entered time with Him...not that He had a beginning. There is one to ponder with John 1:1.....:)
Well I'm just looking at his birth as a beginning for the sake of my conversation. But Once you have Christ seated at God's right hand,... in eternity. He can overlook the foundations of the earth with his Father. He isn't looking at things through a muddled metal mirror. One day, we won't either, we'll be like him. So this bears on us as well, and that bears on this thread.
Time and I are only acquaintances. Between a masters in Fractal Mathematics and one in Quantum Physics my key scholastic interests lie in the way things work, which I think of in terms of "How did God do it all?",... creation, that is.
So Christ was raised in a spiritual/celestial body that was able to travel through the heavens/heavenlies. We're going to get a body like this one day. One that can step outside of time and travel to God's side. One whose vision is unclouded.
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
We are God's kids.
A Baby seal (Pup) grows up to be a seal.
A Baby bear (cub) grows up to be a bear.
Everything after it's own kind? ...and we're godlets, lol.
Well I'm just looking at his birth as a beginning for the sake of my conversation. But Once you have Christ seated at God's right hand,... in eternity. He can overlook the foundations of the earth with his Father. He isn't looking at things through a muddled metal mirror. One day, we won't either, we'll be like him. So this bears on us as well, and that bears on this thread.
Time and I are only acquaintances. Between a masters in Fractal Mathematics and one in Quantum Physics my key scholastic interests lie in the way things work, which I think of in terms of "How did God do it all?",... creation, that is.
So Christ was raised in a spiritual/celestial body that was able to travel through the heavens/heavenlies. We're going to get a body like this one day. One that can step outside of time and travel to God's side. One whose vision is unclouded.
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
We are God's kids.
A Baby seal (Pup) grows up to be a seal.
A Baby bear (cub) grows up to be a bear.
Everything after it's own kind? ...and we're godlets, lol.
I wasn't able to read more than a few lines of the donkey's site linked-to in the first post of this thread. I no longer respond seriously to people who speak or write in pseudo-prophetic voice, and the donkey's pseudo-prophetic voice is worse than my Inspector Cluseau inspired phoney-French accent!
However, the responses on this thread have led to a number of interesting notions, some of which we'll eventually be getting around to on the Exegesis vs Eisegesis thread. More from an Old Testament/Gospels point of view rather than an Epistles/Revelation aspect.
One of the words translated "world" in the JKV is aion or "age", which definitely does mean "a period of time". It's the word translated "world" in Matthew 8:40, Luke 20:34&35 and Luke 18:30. From the tone of your posts, Jeff, you may be interested in looking at these.
}>>Yes Yes Yes !!!<<{ The tares have nothing to do with the gathering
I know this topic is older, but someone bumped it and I'm glad
also from WordWolf's same Post:
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Is this not beautiful? These are our brothers and sisters here being spoken of at the Resurrection of the Just. They were servants of God that did well, whom God judged just. They are not all Israelites many will come from the times before Israel - and many come from the times after the Gathering.
They have a different kind of body than the one we will be getting. It's a terrestrial body rather than the celestial/spiritual one we will get. But God will give them eternal life and put His spirit in them. They will be saved. They are the children by adoption. They are precious to God and once "adopted", they are part of the family. This has always been God's plan for them. They will live on the third earth with the New Jerusalem.
Ezek.37
[1] The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
[2] And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
[3] And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
[4] Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
[5] Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
[6] And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
[7] So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
[8] And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
[9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Revelation 21:1-4.
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
The New Earth will not be the home of the sons and daughters of God by birth, though Jesus Christ will be responsible for it, so I except him. He will be there. the Lamb is the light of that world. Bride and Lamb together. But the body of Christ, God's spiritual children by birth,... He has other plans for us.
I wasn't able to read more than a few lines of the donkey's site linked-to in the first post of this thread. I no longer respond seriously to people who speak or write in pseudo-prophetic voice, and the donkey's pseudo-prophetic voice is worse than my Inspector Cluseau inspired phoney-French accent!
However, the responses on this thread have led to a number of interesting notions, some of which we'll eventually be getting around to on the Exegesis vs Eisegesis thread. More from an Old Testament/Gospels point of view rather than an Epistles/Revelation aspect.
One of the words translated "world" in the JKV is aion or "age", which definitely does mean "a period of time". It's the word translated "world" in Matthew 8:40, Luke 20:34&35 and Luke 18:30. From the tone of your posts, Jeff, you may be interested in looking at these.
Love,
Steve
I can't find Mat 8:40 so I think you must have meant another verse Steve.
This is Luke 20:34,35 in KJV:
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry , and are given in marriage : 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry , nor are given in marriage :
Luke 18:30:
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting
I will look at them more, but felt like posting them in the mean time.
I will be interested in seeing how things develope for you here or on the other thread.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
THESE VERSES REFER TO THE SAME THING IN THE GOSPELS:
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
NOW, FROM THE EPISTLES:
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
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Where does it say in the scriptures that these are different events? I have never found one prophet or apostle that has "SAID" they are different things.
Maybe we have been shown improper eisegesis? (Thank you Steve :) )
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Do we not need to confess our sins to be cleansed by the blood and stay IN CHRIST?
2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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Do we need not to put away lies and hold on to a clear conscience to be fruitful?
1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
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HEBREWS 6:
3 And this will we do , if God permit . 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened , and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come , 6 If they shall fall away , to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh , and put him to an open shame . 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed , receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak .
I THINK THE PROPER READING OF HEBREWS IS THAT EVERY WAYFER SHOULD THINK IT IS ADDRESSED TO HIM/HER. :mellow: SERIOUSLY.
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HEBREWS10:
9 Then said he , Lo , I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool . 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified . 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before , 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say , his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised ) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching . 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said , Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense , saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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According to Hebrews ch10, believing and being enlightened holds us more accountable before God than we were before we believed. And the consequences for deliberate wickedness...HOW ARE THEY ANY LESS THAN JESUS WARNED IN THE GOSPELS?
(ADDED IN EDITING)
BOTH THE GOSPELS AND THE EPISTLES TEACH RESURECTION, RIGHT?
I'm copying and pasting this from my post #32 if y'all don't mind: :)
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And as far as the resurrection verses a TWI style gathering together.....
The epistles SAY resurrection.
The gospels teach of a GATHERING.
IN NEITHER GOSPELS OR EPISTLES DOES IT SAY THAT THE EVENTS OF GATHERING AND RESURRECTION ARE DIFFERENT!
So since the scriptures do NOT ACTUALLY SAY THEY ARE DIFFERENT it is left us to consider the matter.
But since I the scriptures in the epistles teach about the resurrection and do not say to look for anything different than what is already taught in the gospels nobody has the right to say that it is commanded by God to look for anything other than what the scriptures plainly teach.....RESURECTION.
Once I saw this according to the scriptures it was a DUH moment for me that made it very simple to see that I was never correct in believing that Wierwille taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century.
The first century believers were taught the RESURECTION and that the events of "gathering" were as the Lord had already taught in the gospels.
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cman
i am the resurrection sound familiar? the just and unjust the wheat and the tares when Christ comes it will all unfold as it has always
JeffSjo
Dear Wordwolf,
Any feedback for me yet as it concerns my response to your thoughts concerning our being partakers of "the resurrection" as oppose to a TWI style "gathering together?"
I know my response is not exhaustiver on the topic, but it seems that the references to "the resurrection" that I've mentioned in the epistles are fairly plain. But from my own experiences it seems a few simple verses can lead to exhaustive re-evaluation at times.
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JeffSjo
Dear Wordwolf,
Since I have been here I have never, ever seen you drop any topic that IMO has the potential for some really good give and take like this one.
What happened, did you lose interest?
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WordWolf
I've been running around. Sitting down and giving serious analysis takes some uninterrupted time.
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JeffSjo
Dear Wordwolf,
WELL, O.K.
You could add some of your considerations and/or concerns to the thread if you wish. It would add a little to the open character of the thread that I was going for.
If all the children play nice it could be polite. Their might not even be a superhero that feels obliged to jump in and save the day.
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JeffSjo
Well it still seems to me that some of these points are worthy of serious consideration too!
Dear Dot,
Do you have anything more specific you'd like to discuss about the possibility of the "Thousand years" being a scriptural addition?
To me, that seems like the single biggest point that has been brought up on this thread so far.
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JeffSjo
I haven't been doing any research or even any reading about these issues lately......sigh......I was just hoping that the considerations that Dot and WW might lead to an open, honest consideration of very important doctrinal points to me.
Well, there is still time.
But now I am going to toss in my perspective on these issues to see if that may break the silence... sheesh guys...how would anyone (like me) know that this is not simply "the silent treatment"?
answer: Because we got back to you concerning this thread that I started or seemed to accept an open invitation to consider these things with you....duh.
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I feel the issue of whether or not the scriptures concerning the "thousand year reign" being added to the scriptures is major for one simple reason. A lot of fundamentalist predictions of future events are based on these once occuring scripture. And without them a lot of things change...such as it would turn the expectation of Ezekiel's prophecies concerning the temple coming to pass into "new heaven and new earth" events and not anything that will happen on earth as we know it now.
And since my tendency is to rely on what the scriptures say MORE than what I think, (what the heck, it is a good goal anyway, but not an easy one to carry out.) the issue of whether or not the scripture was added too is much more serious. For me it represents the possibility of someone messing with what I set as a goal of working from what the scriptures say; as a starting point!
________________________
And as far as the resurrection verses a TWI style gathering together.....
The epistles SAY resurrection.
The gospels teach of a GATHERING.
IN NEITHER GOSPELS OR EPISTLES DOES IT SAY THAT THE EVENTS OF GATHERING AND RESURRECTION ARE DIFFERENT!
So since the scriptures do NOT ACTUALLY SAY THEY ARE DIFFERENT it is left us to consider the matter.
But since I the scriptures in the epistles teach about the resurrection and do not say to look for anything different than what is already taught in the gospels nobody has the right to say that it is commanded by God to look for anything other than what the scriptures plainly teach.....RESURECTION.
Once I saw this according to the scriptures it was a DUH moment for me that made it very simple to see that I was never correct in believing that Wierwille taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century.
The first century believers were taught the RESURECTION and that the events of "gathering" were as the Lord had already taught in the gospels.
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ONE MORE THING.....WHAT THE HECK IS "RAPTURE"? I tend to try to stick with terminology that scriptures actually say OVER AND OVER AGAIN like RESURECTION.
(edited for spelling)
Have a nice weekend y'all. I'll try to get back Monday.
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JeffSjo
And thanks to all the jokers who managed to resist the urge to respond to my "What the heck is rapture?" statement. After I thought about my question I realized that it was not hard at all to come up with any number of toungue-in-cheek responses to that one...sigh. And if it was any of you who asked it I would have probably gone their myself.
But even one serious response would have been nice.....
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Shellon
My brother is a gay man and while in twi, during the 1994 disaster toward homosexuals, he and I hid our sibling-hood, twi thinking I'd broken off ties with him. Yup, I lied.
But, and since that might sound like it has nothing to do with your posts here, I think some of it does. And since I usually stay away from discussion on anything religious/doctinal/political my addition here will only be experience stuff. Plus I told Jeff I'd take a peek and while I may lie to TWI, I try to keep my word otherwise.
During this time of sneaking my brother into my life, I had a dream that it was the gathering together time and my baby brother and I were walking along a street in our hometown. There were people in charge of who gets to jump on the train and those that don't and they stopped to pick me up, but not my brother.
I wouldn't go without him. How could I possibly.
Some push and pull and me running down the street to keep up with my brother, whom they seemed intent on not only leaving but killing, I ended up not going where ever it was I was supposed to be allowed to go.
For some reason, this dream has stayed with me where TWI is concerned, where other dreams have gone the way of crappy memory.
This is how I think when I think of the Gathering Together.
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JeffSjo
Dear Shellon,
There is an awful lot about the gathering that the gospels and the epistles speak of that we will just have to wait and see about. And in TWI we tended to think that our judgement was enough to decide how things will be then.
But when I remember that the Lord who willingly allowed Himself to be crucified for our sins is the only one who's ideas will count I am comforted.
I am comforted when I remember that if we are still breathing we have a chance to change.
I am comforted when I think that the just and true one will surprise many of the rest of us when He has His say.
I expect to see His glory and justice and truth in that day.
I hope your bad dream goes the way of the crappy memories.
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Shellon
Thanks, Jeff, yeah, it's not something I believe, and my brother and I mostly giggle when one says "remember that dream......"
But it did reek of twi's respector of person's gig, to me. Which is why it came up in my rest in the first place; probably 'cuz I was lying about him in my life and it was an issue that I do disagreed with in their doctrine.
Both the homosexuality issue, as well as the respector of persons issue are completely different discussions huh?
Either way, all ways, they suck and we're still left with the questions we started with. Or I am, at least. I do not think my brother will be denied Heaven because of his sexual preferance. Nor does he, so we're good.
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JeffSjo
Dear Shellon,
What you said is cool to me, I think that it is fine to consider these things for ourselves. Especially as it concerns family and loved ones. Also IMO TWI had this thing so twisted around concerning the gathering that leadership seemed to think that they'd be doing the choosing, not the Lord.
But I really brought this post to the front to get Wordwolf's attention. I thought it would be very, very rude in this case to ignore you dear.
That reminds me.....
_____________________________
Wordwolf,
It seems that you and I both agree that this topic is a big deal. And since my view has evolved away from TWI teachings I'm thinking that it may seem even bigger for me...so...
Whas'up homie?
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roberterasmus
Jeff,
This is just to bump this topic so I can get to it.
Bob
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JeffSjo
Sounds good Robert.
I'm looking forward to going over it some more. :)
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Gen-2
One of the differences between God and Christ is that Jesus had a beginning. He was born. He grew up, died, and has been raised from the dead. He has everlasting life. -- He's not scheduled to die again.
~~~ I am NOT making any arguement for-or-against the Trinity here ~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But there's this verse (Heb 13:8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
And (Malachi 3:6) For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons .... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. ...
And (Isaiah 57:15) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
And (Deuteronomy 33:27) The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.
And (Psalm 90:4) For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
And (2 Peter 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
And (Hebrews 10)
09 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Christ inhabits eternity, at God's right hand, and in such a place as where Time is viewed - past, present and future, the one as-easily-as the next. In other words time is not a daily concern, things just >>are<< (without the filter of time to sift one day from the next).
Would you not be able to see things from the past, as easily as from a "present" perspective, or even a future one? I mean, It shouldn't actually matter if the things happened before you were Born, If you were seated in Eternity, at God's right hand. Maybe I'm just too much of a Physicist here.
Anyways. to go further on a discussion of the "gathering",... and Whats & Wheres - and the Whos and the Hows,..... I think the Whens should also be addressed. I mean, it isn't as though God left us ignorant on this. Maybe no one's ever really sought to really put this part together...?
Adding for Clarity: -- If you were in Christ's position at God's right hand, couldn't you gain experiential knowledge of events which occured before you "began" to be? Couldn't you just watch (with your Father),... the past ~~~ as well as any other time?
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geisha779
Just a thought about the time thing....I believe Jesus entered into time from eternity. . . . eternity entered time with Him...not that He had a beginning. There is one to ponder with John 1:1.....:)
Love the time stuff.
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Gen-2
Well I'm just looking at his birth as a beginning for the sake of my conversation. But Once you have Christ seated at God's right hand,... in eternity. He can overlook the foundations of the earth with his Father. He isn't looking at things through a muddled metal mirror. One day, we won't either, we'll be like him. So this bears on us as well, and that bears on this thread.
Time and I are only acquaintances. Between a masters in Fractal Mathematics and one in Quantum Physics my key scholastic interests lie in the way things work, which I think of in terms of "How did God do it all?",... creation, that is.
So Christ was raised in a spiritual/celestial body that was able to travel through the heavens/heavenlies. We're going to get a body like this one day. One that can step outside of time and travel to God's side. One whose vision is unclouded.
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
We are God's kids.
A Baby seal (Pup) grows up to be a seal.
A Baby bear (cub) grows up to be a bear.
Everything after it's own kind? ...and we're godlets, lol.
As God's kids, what do we grow up to be?
We are God's Kids.
and we're going to grow up.
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roberterasmus
Gen,
That was absolutely beautiful stuff.
godlets (godda love it)
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Sunesis
LOL!!! Godlets - I love it.
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Steve Lortz
I wasn't able to read more than a few lines of the donkey's site linked-to in the first post of this thread. I no longer respond seriously to people who speak or write in pseudo-prophetic voice, and the donkey's pseudo-prophetic voice is worse than my Inspector Cluseau inspired phoney-French accent!
However, the responses on this thread have led to a number of interesting notions, some of which we'll eventually be getting around to on the Exegesis vs Eisegesis thread. More from an Old Testament/Gospels point of view rather than an Epistles/Revelation aspect.
One of the words translated "world" in the JKV is aion or "age", which definitely does mean "a period of time". It's the word translated "world" in Matthew 8:40, Luke 20:34&35 and Luke 18:30. From the tone of your posts, Jeff, you may be interested in looking at these.
Love,
Steve
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Gen-2
}>>Yes Yes Yes !!!<<{ The tares have nothing to do with the gathering
I know this topic is older, but someone bumped it and I'm glad
Is this not beautiful? These are our brothers and sisters here being spoken of at the Resurrection of the Just. They were servants of God that did well, whom God judged just. They are not all Israelites many will come from the times before Israel - and many come from the times after the Gathering.
They have a different kind of body than the one we will be getting. It's a terrestrial body rather than the celestial/spiritual one we will get. But God will give them eternal life and put His spirit in them. They will be saved. They are the children by adoption. They are precious to God and once "adopted", they are part of the family. This has always been God's plan for them. They will live on the third earth with the New Jerusalem.
Ezek.37
[1] The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
[2] And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
[3] And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
[4] Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
[5] Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
[6] And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
[7] So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
[8] And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
[9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
The New Earth will not be the home of the sons and daughters of God by birth, though Jesus Christ will be responsible for it, so I except him. He will be there. the Lamb is the light of that world. Bride and Lamb together. But the body of Christ, God's spiritual children by birth,... He has other plans for us.
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JeffSjo
I can't find Mat 8:40 so I think you must have meant another verse Steve.
This is Luke 20:34,35 in KJV:
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry , and are given in marriage : 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry , nor are given in marriage :
Luke 18:30:
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting
I will look at them more, but felt like posting them in the mean time.
I will be interested in seeing how things develope for you here or on the other thread.
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JeffSjo
THESE VERSES SPEAK OF THE "GATHERING TOGETHER":
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
THESE VERSES REFER TO THE SAME THING IN THE GOSPELS:
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
NOW, FROM THE EPISTLES:
Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
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Where does it say in the scriptures that these are different events? I have never found one prophet or apostle that has "SAID" they are different things.
Maybe we have been shown improper eisegesis? (Thank you Steve :) )
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Do we not need to confess our sins to be cleansed by the blood and stay IN CHRIST?
2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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Do we need not to put away lies and hold on to a clear conscience to be fruitful?
1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
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HEBREWS 6:
3 And this will we do , if God permit . 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened , and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come , 6 If they shall fall away , to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh , and put him to an open shame . 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed , receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak .
I THINK THE PROPER READING OF HEBREWS IS THAT EVERY WAYFER SHOULD THINK IT IS ADDRESSED TO HIM/HER. :mellow: SERIOUSLY.
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HEBREWS10:
9 Then said he , Lo , I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool . 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified . 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before , 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say , his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised ) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching . 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said , Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense , saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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According to Hebrews ch10, believing and being enlightened holds us more accountable before God than we were before we believed. And the consequences for deliberate wickedness...HOW ARE THEY ANY LESS THAN JESUS WARNED IN THE GOSPELS?
(ADDED IN EDITING)
BOTH THE GOSPELS AND THE EPISTLES TEACH RESURECTION, RIGHT?
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JeffSjo
I made a quick point here, then looked at it again, and then decided to get rid of it because even I could see that it was a weak point.
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JeffSjo
I'm copying and pasting this from my post #32 if y'all don't mind: :)
_____________________________________
And as far as the resurrection verses a TWI style gathering together.....
The epistles SAY resurrection.
The gospels teach of a GATHERING.
IN NEITHER GOSPELS OR EPISTLES DOES IT SAY THAT THE EVENTS OF GATHERING AND RESURRECTION ARE DIFFERENT!
So since the scriptures do NOT ACTUALLY SAY THEY ARE DIFFERENT it is left us to consider the matter.
But since I the scriptures in the epistles teach about the resurrection and do not say to look for anything different than what is already taught in the gospels nobody has the right to say that it is commanded by God to look for anything other than what the scriptures plainly teach.....RESURECTION.
Once I saw this according to the scriptures it was a DUH moment for me that made it very simple to see that I was never correct in believing that Wierwille taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century.
The first century believers were taught the RESURECTION and that the events of "gathering" were as the Lord had already taught in the gospels.
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