From the way you describe your organization the boundaries are well set and no one is gonna be asked to do more than any other.
that being said I think people are afraid of" going the extra mile " because it turns into a hike from hell.
If you know what I mean.
Your saying it seems as it is just a few willing to do any extra work and most just want the minamal requirment to get the job done.
well maybe it is because most know what it feels like to have to be overwhelmed and do not want it again to "be blamed" or take responsibility is often sadly the same thing .
My boss is excellent.
I will give you an example he wanted a certain area in our work to be better organized, we each have to order supplies every week , he took pictures of every area in which our "stuff" was organized, and then held a meeting in which a slide show was presented!
Now does it matter anyone that this is gonna happen? a trivial part of the work week really .
My boss gave me new shelves and evrything I needed to "make it happen". It is a wonder to behold!
Guess who has to maintain it? guess who takes responsibility for it ? My patners now find they can complain if one little hair is out of place! When before it was a total wreck!
so much for taking responsibility! because I am the one who began this "project" I am the one who has to maintain it !!!
If I do not it goes back to the previous issues. No extra pay or time to do this nothing but the glory of it hmmm loses its appeal after awhile I tell ya! In fact they will complain if I get help even when I spend a half shift 'orgainizing the area! why does she get extra help? come on!
I do not know if this kind of explains the why people do not want to step up and assume responsibility .
Ever hear of the saying the more ya do the more they will want?
I think most have experienced it.
Also one has to be willing to make decisions and that means the possibility of failure and consequences OH NO better be the other guy that has done that ... something to talk about it .
human nature. My boss has made lots of mistakes in his eadership and we suffer for it and heknows it he is the first to say well that turned into a diseaster. many we have to live with for a very long time.
But I respect him more for the trying of new ideas and seeing what wont work than keeping the same old same old and complaining. he is willing to take the heat which most of my co-workers give with the finger wagging at him .
most only want to live within their own confort zone.
but shouldn’t we all be ready to serve in whatever capacity?
No.
I'd never ask a little old lady to move logs, a teenager to do the financial books, a recovering alcoholic to go "witnessing" in a bar or anyone to do anything that they werent inclined to do in the first place. One of the things that I especially disliked about way "service" is that it made little use of peoples inate qualities and abilities and instead tried to reform them according to someone elses mold.
What I’d like to discuss on this thread is whether or not this reluctance to get involved is widespread among churches (specifically I’m thinking about Christian involvement, not secular) and why you think that might be. Is it lack of personal confidence; lack of confidence in God; reluctance to get involved – in anything; something else?
Im not a church goer but I do work at alot of churches around the country and see how they operate. The ones that Ive seen that seem to work imo are the ones that let people be themselves and find their own avenues of service. Not everyone wants to be the person with the clipboard, who takes attendance and tells people what street to walk--someone might but its not for everyone nor should it be.
My volunteer stuff these days is at the homeless shelter, its not church affiliated at all, but all sorts of people volunteer there, some cook meals, some fix the gutters, or plant gardens, or help with fundraising or work with the clients or just answer the phone --- but the enjoyable thing about it is that there is nobody DICTATING to you what is an acceptable level of volunteering or what it is that you must do.
Somehow it all works when people are given the honor to be themselves and dont have a boss telling them what to do and who they have to be.....
No, it is not quite that, Pond, the people are there already, and the only extra work is to bring some milk.
Oh, there is a sort of report form to be completed, not difficult, recording any issues that might have arisen, like a street light being out, and counting the number of bottles we have picked up and the number of people we have spoken to (both of the latter two are something of a communal guess). This form is usually started at mid-evening break and completed end of shift. Could be done by a different person, just that it works out for the SL to do it.
In any event, everyone is there all the time. We all arrive just before 10 and nobody leaves until everyone on that shift is ready.
What have others perceived about the acceptance of responsibility within the church?
What about parents, accepting responsibility to help with the Children's Ministry (kids' Sunday School) if your church is big enough?
What about being a church warden or some other role within the church admin?
What about Outreach evenings (if your church has them)?
What about hospital visiting (ditto)?
What about service to housebound/elderly/sick?
What about dealing with a Soup Run/helping the homeless?
Or is it the same ones helping, nearly all the time?
I'm not a church goer now, but i was for a few years after leaving TWI .
Perhaps there is a reason no one wants that job!
Perhaps instead of a shift leader you could spread the tasks out--a refreshment person, a paperwork/secretary etc, a street coordinator. Or let the group coordinate itself.
One thing I noticed about churches, unlike TWI--people have the right to disagree with anyone in the church, including the pastor. It is not lock step obedience like in TWI--and I think that is much healthier. Life is certainly easier for a leader if they can just issue orders and be instantly obeyed, but how healthy is that, anyway? Certainly makes leading more difficult and communication more important, when people can say NO.
Many people, whether in a church situation or out of it, shrink away from any responsibility or "leadership". It really has nothing to do with how much work is involved or how hard it is or how much support there is, some people just don't seem wired to be in charge.
With some people it is a fear that they will be "stuck" with all the work, with others it equates to a committment that they just don't want to make.
Still others work jobs where they have responsibility as a manager or supervisor and don't want what they perceive as stress outside of work.
It's all about the individual perception of being a supervisor, rather than the reality of what is actually being expected.
Bramble, there is NO extra work to share out! Everyone on patrol does the same, prays before going out, walks the streets for a few hours, comes back to base, the people at base make everyone a cuppa, then the patrol goes out for a second stint of beat the feet. Then the patrol comes back, somebody finishes the report (which is REALLY brief) and there are closing prayers and everyone goes home. SL is a different person every time.
It is healthy to disagree but I am not so sure it is healthy not to accept that you are capable of doing something very simple, nor to decline a smidgeon of extra responsibility. That looks like cowardice to me.
Oakspear: yes, it might be about declining responsibility, especially if one is a supervisor-type at work: but in fact, those people are the ones who are most willing to help, knowing how very little work is involved!
The real work is done by the Management Team, and there is quite a lot of that, all voluntary, and much is time-consuming.
I think it's kinda sad that people don't want to get involved.
Perhaps I should say, not involved, which they certainly are, but ... almost passengers on a journey they have paid to participate in.
I'm going to consider this some more, but after my former splinter group experience and after hearing about many folks' TWI experience I might be much more inclined to trust and respect the ones who don't want the leadership position.
Many people have shared things that make it clear that almost each and every person in leadership practically salivated over the prospect of being the big dog someday. I think it is one of the ambitions that give sociopathic ministry leaders like my former splinter leader the lever he needed to lead people around by the nose. Kind of like dangling poisoned bait in front of the prey.
Even though your present situation doesn't seem to relate at all to TWI leadership as far as I can tell, for me it would still seem an issue of concern if you had someone who always wanted to be the leader.
But for all I know it could actually be a situation where the unwilling shift leaders might be benefited somehow by learning to take on the responsibility, but if they are unwilling, whatcha goin to do?
I think it is neat that you are part of such a program that is actually working out, no matter whether or not everyone is willing to be shift leader. And with all the prayer and care you seem to be describing to us I would expect the Lord to be working out these issues in due time in everyone's heart.
Twinky, honey, I learned a long time ago in management (actually I don't like that word. I prefer leader) that folks have their own level, motivational podium, so to speak. I have seen talents, intellect, ability and promise galore in folks that I felt would carry them into leadership. But they were happy where they were with what they were doing. I learned to accept that. I was thankful to have them succeeding in the realm they were good at.
You have folks patrolling, reporting etc. but do not want to be shift leader. Thankfully, you have concerned neighbors who at least go out and patrol and report. Hallelujah!!! What is the other side of the scenario? Nobody wanting to do anything....? How would that work?
We just have to understand where folks are coming from. The Body is not one member but many. The foot the hand the ear the eye, etc., etc., etc...and occasionally the lower forty shows up. They need love, too. Ha!! Ha!!
I wonder, too, why we really need a shift leader, but I think it is more that someone carries the radio and liaises with the city camera team. And brings the milk for the coffee.
There isn't much on our city page so it doesn't link there yet. We have to get some stuff put on that, and a person who will update our Web pages from time to time.
Our team of volunteers ranges from students at the university, to somebody in her 80s. The oldest one stays at base and prays (we always have two people praying) and the oldest who goes out on patrol is somewhere in her mid-70s. We are about 2/3 females and 1/3 males, interestingly.
Generally the males are more accepting of the SL responsibility and the females more shy of it, but there are nonetheless bold and strong female leaders. I don't get the feeling it's "church teaching" but rather in the nature of the women themselves, that they don't want to be SL.
Hey, I'm thankful for them all. God bless 'em. Some of them would be out every week, if they could.
We have a training day coming up soon and I am going to speak with the person leading that, to see what we can do to exhort others to rise up.
Interestingly, some only wanted to patrol with X, Y and Z whom they already knew. This is not always possible. For myself I consider it important to mix with my bros and sis in Christ whom I have not met before (especially having been so isolated by TWI). The Management Team backs me on mixing people up and none of them has any issue about who they serve with. It's all a part of learning to appreciate each other's abilities, and to learn from them.
Twinky, if you are asking about church and volunteers, whether a lakc of willingness to volunteer amongst church members is the norm....I`d have to say that our little country church is amazing. When I was sick, the minister found out that I was unable to make apts to the big hospital in nashville because of cost...she found out what the expense would be, notified the women`s group who raise money at christmas bazars etc...and not only got the money, but enough for gas and lunch afterwards, then she herself drove me because I was too sick to.
I am not even an official member...I attend sporadically...I found out that they do the same thing for the woman down the road who is alone and been fighting cancer...the minister takes her out of town to all of her chemo stuff...I have seen them on several occasions help people who have had house fires...I know that there is prison outreach where a young woman wrongly convicted serving 20 years, not only received an education, but was freed and even exonerated, and her children returned. They help build homes for habitat for humanity. My kids have gone weekends to help rebuild a house taken out by a tornado with the youth group. There is a group that goes every year to costa rica to volunteer at a mission/school/church. When the minister found out that my daughter wanted to go to college...she made all of the apts with all of the right people ...and got her enrolled at the methodist college. She has someone helping her to take the right tests, how to get scholarships etc...
These are just a few examples that I am aware of in our small country church with probably less than 50 people. I know from friends that other churches in our area are just as involved. Our little karate school (made up from christians from many different groups) is putting on a benefit for St Jude (anybody wanna sponsor me for board breaking? ;) )
What I see for volunteers at least locally, is that it is alive and well, but nobody is expected to. Folks just do it because they believe that it is important. Nobody is shamed into or pressured into it...shrug
Do you think that it could be that maybe these guys that are not being leaders are called to do something else?? I guess that it is a very personal thing between them and God about what they can handle or are willing to. How many times did we volunteer to do something that we were neither qualified or capable because we were expected to? There were a lot of people hurt by people who volunteered to be leaders because it was expected.
I think that it is God that works in our hearts for this stuff... and if he isn`t ...someones foot in our bu tts isn`t going to be a better motivator.
Oeno, if you'd read my posts properly, you'd've seen I'm very thankful for them and for what they do. Not everyone wants to give up their Friday or Saturday evening to go and look after drunk kids and pick up glass bottles so they can't be used as weapons.
BTW mine is a VERY quiet city, trouble-wise. The kids are usually big noisy groups having a good time.
Rascal, this church sounds wonderful. They sound like they're being the 1st century church in the 21st century!
Twinky, I am humbled and so grateful that this was where God saw fit to see me planted.
I have learned so much from these gentle quiet Christians. I am thankful that they welcome me into their midst as a sister in spite of my difference and where I am in my spiritual walk. :)
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pond
From the way you describe your organization the boundaries are well set and no one is gonna be asked to do more than any other.
that being said I think people are afraid of" going the extra mile " because it turns into a hike from hell.
If you know what I mean.
Your saying it seems as it is just a few willing to do any extra work and most just want the minamal requirment to get the job done.
well maybe it is because most know what it feels like to have to be overwhelmed and do not want it again to "be blamed" or take responsibility is often sadly the same thing .
My boss is excellent.
I will give you an example he wanted a certain area in our work to be better organized, we each have to order supplies every week , he took pictures of every area in which our "stuff" was organized, and then held a meeting in which a slide show was presented!
Now does it matter anyone that this is gonna happen? a trivial part of the work week really .
My boss gave me new shelves and evrything I needed to "make it happen". It is a wonder to behold!
Guess who has to maintain it? guess who takes responsibility for it ? My patners now find they can complain if one little hair is out of place! When before it was a total wreck!
so much for taking responsibility! because I am the one who began this "project" I am the one who has to maintain it !!!
If I do not it goes back to the previous issues. No extra pay or time to do this nothing but the glory of it hmmm loses its appeal after awhile I tell ya! In fact they will complain if I get help even when I spend a half shift 'orgainizing the area! why does she get extra help? come on!
I do not know if this kind of explains the why people do not want to step up and assume responsibility .
Ever hear of the saying the more ya do the more they will want?
I think most have experienced it.
Also one has to be willing to make decisions and that means the possibility of failure and consequences OH NO better be the other guy that has done that ... something to talk about it .
human nature. My boss has made lots of mistakes in his eadership and we suffer for it and heknows it he is the first to say well that turned into a diseaster. many we have to live with for a very long time.
But I respect him more for the trying of new ideas and seeing what wont work than keeping the same old same old and complaining. he is willing to take the heat which most of my co-workers give with the finger wagging at him .
most only want to live within their own confort zone.
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mstar1
No.
I'd never ask a little old lady to move logs, a teenager to do the financial books, a recovering alcoholic to go "witnessing" in a bar or anyone to do anything that they werent inclined to do in the first place. One of the things that I especially disliked about way "service" is that it made little use of peoples inate qualities and abilities and instead tried to reform them according to someone elses mold.
Im not a church goer but I do work at alot of churches around the country and see how they operate. The ones that Ive seen that seem to work imo are the ones that let people be themselves and find their own avenues of service. Not everyone wants to be the person with the clipboard, who takes attendance and tells people what street to walk--someone might but its not for everyone nor should it be.
My volunteer stuff these days is at the homeless shelter, its not church affiliated at all, but all sorts of people volunteer there, some cook meals, some fix the gutters, or plant gardens, or help with fundraising or work with the clients or just answer the phone --- but the enjoyable thing about it is that there is nobody DICTATING to you what is an acceptable level of volunteering or what it is that you must do.
Somehow it all works when people are given the honor to be themselves and dont have a boss telling them what to do and who they have to be.....
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Twinky
No, it is not quite that, Pond, the people are there already, and the only extra work is to bring some milk.
Oh, there is a sort of report form to be completed, not difficult, recording any issues that might have arisen, like a street light being out, and counting the number of bottles we have picked up and the number of people we have spoken to (both of the latter two are something of a communal guess). This form is usually started at mid-evening break and completed end of shift. Could be done by a different person, just that it works out for the SL to do it.
In any event, everyone is there all the time. We all arrive just before 10 and nobody leaves until everyone on that shift is ready.
What have others perceived about the acceptance of responsibility within the church?
What about parents, accepting responsibility to help with the Children's Ministry (kids' Sunday School) if your church is big enough?
What about being a church warden or some other role within the church admin?
What about Outreach evenings (if your church has them)?
What about hospital visiting (ditto)?
What about service to housebound/elderly/sick?
What about dealing with a Soup Run/helping the homeless?
Or is it the same ones helping, nearly all the time?
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Bramble
I'm not a church goer now, but i was for a few years after leaving TWI .
Perhaps there is a reason no one wants that job!
Perhaps instead of a shift leader you could spread the tasks out--a refreshment person, a paperwork/secretary etc, a street coordinator. Or let the group coordinate itself.
One thing I noticed about churches, unlike TWI--people have the right to disagree with anyone in the church, including the pastor. It is not lock step obedience like in TWI--and I think that is much healthier. Life is certainly easier for a leader if they can just issue orders and be instantly obeyed, but how healthy is that, anyway? Certainly makes leading more difficult and communication more important, when people can say NO.
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Oakspear
Many people, whether in a church situation or out of it, shrink away from any responsibility or "leadership". It really has nothing to do with how much work is involved or how hard it is or how much support there is, some people just don't seem wired to be in charge.
With some people it is a fear that they will be "stuck" with all the work, with others it equates to a committment that they just don't want to make.
Still others work jobs where they have responsibility as a manager or supervisor and don't want what they perceive as stress outside of work.
It's all about the individual perception of being a supervisor, rather than the reality of what is actually being expected.
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Twinky
Bramble, there is NO extra work to share out! Everyone on patrol does the same, prays before going out, walks the streets for a few hours, comes back to base, the people at base make everyone a cuppa, then the patrol goes out for a second stint of beat the feet. Then the patrol comes back, somebody finishes the report (which is REALLY brief) and there are closing prayers and everyone goes home. SL is a different person every time.
It is healthy to disagree but I am not so sure it is healthy not to accept that you are capable of doing something very simple, nor to decline a smidgeon of extra responsibility. That looks like cowardice to me.
Oakspear: yes, it might be about declining responsibility, especially if one is a supervisor-type at work: but in fact, those people are the ones who are most willing to help, knowing how very little work is involved!
The real work is done by the Management Team, and there is quite a lot of that, all voluntary, and much is time-consuming.
I think it's kinda sad that people don't want to get involved.
Perhaps I should say, not involved, which they certainly are, but ... almost passengers on a journey they have paid to participate in.
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JeffSjo
Dear Twinky,
I'm going to consider this some more, but after my former splinter group experience and after hearing about many folks' TWI experience I might be much more inclined to trust and respect the ones who don't want the leadership position.
Many people have shared things that make it clear that almost each and every person in leadership practically salivated over the prospect of being the big dog someday. I think it is one of the ambitions that give sociopathic ministry leaders like my former splinter leader the lever he needed to lead people around by the nose. Kind of like dangling poisoned bait in front of the prey.
Even though your present situation doesn't seem to relate at all to TWI leadership as far as I can tell, for me it would still seem an issue of concern if you had someone who always wanted to be the leader.
But for all I know it could actually be a situation where the unwilling shift leaders might be benefited somehow by learning to take on the responsibility, but if they are unwilling, whatcha goin to do?
I think it is neat that you are part of such a program that is actually working out, no matter whether or not everyone is willing to be shift leader. And with all the prayer and care you seem to be describing to us I would expect the Lord to be working out these issues in due time in everyone's heart.
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Bramble
Why is a shift leader necessary?
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kimberly
Twinky, honey, I learned a long time ago in management (actually I don't like that word. I prefer leader) that folks have their own level, motivational podium, so to speak. I have seen talents, intellect, ability and promise galore in folks that I felt would carry them into leadership. But they were happy where they were with what they were doing. I learned to accept that. I was thankful to have them succeeding in the realm they were good at.
You have folks patrolling, reporting etc. but do not want to be shift leader. Thankfully, you have concerned neighbors who at least go out and patrol and report. Hallelujah!!! What is the other side of the scenario? Nobody wanting to do anything....? How would that work?
We just have to understand where folks are coming from. The Body is not one member but many. The foot the hand the ear the eye, etc., etc., etc...and occasionally the lower forty shows up. They need love, too. Ha!! Ha!!
I commend you folks for your committment.
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Twinky
I wonder, too, why we really need a shift leader, but I think it is more that someone carries the radio and liaises with the city camera team. And brings the milk for the coffee.
Her's the scheme:
http://www.streetpastors.co.uk/Home/tabid/255/Default.aspx
There isn't much on our city page so it doesn't link there yet. We have to get some stuff put on that, and a person who will update our Web pages from time to time.
Our team of volunteers ranges from students at the university, to somebody in her 80s. The oldest one stays at base and prays (we always have two people praying) and the oldest who goes out on patrol is somewhere in her mid-70s. We are about 2/3 females and 1/3 males, interestingly.
Generally the males are more accepting of the SL responsibility and the females more shy of it, but there are nonetheless bold and strong female leaders. I don't get the feeling it's "church teaching" but rather in the nature of the women themselves, that they don't want to be SL.
Hey, I'm thankful for them all. God bless 'em. Some of them would be out every week, if they could.
We have a training day coming up soon and I am going to speak with the person leading that, to see what we can do to exhort others to rise up.
Interestingly, some only wanted to patrol with X, Y and Z whom they already knew. This is not always possible. For myself I consider it important to mix with my bros and sis in Christ whom I have not met before (especially having been so isolated by TWI). The Management Team backs me on mixing people up and none of them has any issue about who they serve with. It's all a part of learning to appreciate each other's abilities, and to learn from them.
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rascal
Twinky, if you are asking about church and volunteers, whether a lakc of willingness to volunteer amongst church members is the norm....I`d have to say that our little country church is amazing. When I was sick, the minister found out that I was unable to make apts to the big hospital in nashville because of cost...she found out what the expense would be, notified the women`s group who raise money at christmas bazars etc...and not only got the money, but enough for gas and lunch afterwards, then she herself drove me because I was too sick to.
I am not even an official member...I attend sporadically...I found out that they do the same thing for the woman down the road who is alone and been fighting cancer...the minister takes her out of town to all of her chemo stuff...I have seen them on several occasions help people who have had house fires...I know that there is prison outreach where a young woman wrongly convicted serving 20 years, not only received an education, but was freed and even exonerated, and her children returned. They help build homes for habitat for humanity. My kids have gone weekends to help rebuild a house taken out by a tornado with the youth group. There is a group that goes every year to costa rica to volunteer at a mission/school/church. When the minister found out that my daughter wanted to go to college...she made all of the apts with all of the right people ...and got her enrolled at the methodist college. She has someone helping her to take the right tests, how to get scholarships etc...
These are just a few examples that I am aware of in our small country church with probably less than 50 people. I know from friends that other churches in our area are just as involved. Our little karate school (made up from christians from many different groups) is putting on a benefit for St Jude (anybody wanna sponsor me for board breaking? ;) )
What I see for volunteers at least locally, is that it is alive and well, but nobody is expected to. Folks just do it because they believe that it is important. Nobody is shamed into or pressured into it...shrug
Do you think that it could be that maybe these guys that are not being leaders are called to do something else?? I guess that it is a very personal thing between them and God about what they can handle or are willing to. How many times did we volunteer to do something that we were neither qualified or capable because we were expected to? There were a lot of people hurt by people who volunteered to be leaders because it was expected.
I think that it is God that works in our hearts for this stuff... and if he isn`t ...someones foot in our bu tts isn`t going to be a better motivator.
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oenophile
Why not just be thankful that a person serves in whatever capacity he / she chooses?
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Twinky
Oeno, if you'd read my posts properly, you'd've seen I'm very thankful for them and for what they do. Not everyone wants to give up their Friday or Saturday evening to go and look after drunk kids and pick up glass bottles so they can't be used as weapons.
BTW mine is a VERY quiet city, trouble-wise. The kids are usually big noisy groups having a good time.
Rascal, this church sounds wonderful. They sound like they're being the 1st century church in the 21st century!
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rascal
Twinky, I am humbled and so grateful that this was where God saw fit to see me planted.
I have learned so much from these gentle quiet Christians. I am thankful that they welcome me into their midst as a sister in spite of my difference and where I am in my spiritual walk. :)
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