Absolutely. That is why I had to toss everything out I ever thought I knew and begin a new foundation to build upon....ie *Love God and Love your neighbor* was my starting place...
As far as I am concerned, all that knowledge really did was distract us from our real responsibility.
Prideful?? Shoot yeah, arrogant, belligerent, throw them in as well....I`d even go so far as to say that we were trained to tune out the very voice of God with the *renewed* mind as it was taught...that we were taught to silence our conscience and good sense with the whole retemorizing routine....lest we consider ...
Jesus didn`t say that we would know one another by how much knowledge we amassed or our works....I think that there very well may be many of us twi folks that are one day to our vast suprise...will be told be Jesus to *depart, for he knew us not*
In my former splinter group I fell onto the wrong side of leadership and over the course of years watched them manipulate and scheme to counteract my influence within the group. In the end my life was mostly broken and they seemed only more entrenched in the kind of pride that allows them to follow false prophecies, one after another, while simultaneously patting themselves on the back for being able to destroy people that were only trying to help or insisted on thinking for themselves.
From my perspective and experience I am of the opinion that the kind of pride and/or false humility that we are talking about in this thread flows down from the top in a hierarchtical organization. In TWI I think it is completely fair to lay all the pride that Imagine is sharing about directly at Wierwille's feet.
I've heard many sharings that make it perfectly clear that Wierwille was able and willing to destoy the lives of anyone he saw fit while at the helm of TWI. So it seems clear to me that the attitudes of Martindale, Rosie, and many others were the direct result of Wierwille's guidance. Otherwise he surely would have crushed them as he did many others.
Of course once these people held the power they did to Wierwille what he taught them to do to others, they pushed him out of their way and took power. All the while using well intentioned people to win others to TWI. Many were taught the same kind of pride through example if nothing else IMO.
And since I now am certain that I was not taught "God's Word as it had not been known since the first century" my former confidence seems relegated to a kind of false pride at it's root where everything that is built on that false confidence in TWI seems destined for a pride caused fall, whether before men now or before the Lord in heaven.
And even in my mostly broken state I can sometimes feel the urge to pat myself on the back sometimes for simply not giving in to my former splinter group's pressure. It seems that the kind of pride that Imagine is talking about is always a possibility at any given moment. I'm just a little relieved that I will not have to answer to the Lord for building a worldwide ministry on prideful estimations of my own worthiness.
We talk about the corruptness, but why did it happen?
My thought is PRIDE.
Went wrong? Was it ever "right"??
Was built on pride, ego, greed, a scam. A counterfeit, with just enough truth to suck in the genuinely innocent and pure of heart.
Some of the doctrines were correct.
But, as with the Pharisees, we be best instructed to follow the words, but NOT the actions.
Just think how surprised you would be if the following happened!
Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
I guess that I am in agreement with you twinky, I don`t think that ever really WAS right. From the very beginning, even as a minister wierwille was searching for ways around the rules and practices that he didn`t like.
I think that being a christian is something that we are inside...that if it is real and genuine, we don`t have a life long struggle with loving our neighbor with the love of God instead of lusting after their wife, their property, jealous of anothers riches etc.
I don`t think the man ever knew...I think that he was always trying to find the right formula the right combination the right magic hocus pocus that make him into a spiritual being.
I think his life is a sad testimony of ever searching, but never actually coming unto a knowledge of the truth...The thing is he managed to drag a good many genuine christians off track with him.....Many woke up, those who`s introduction to God came via twi...I think it will be very difficult to overcome the false teachings, the idea of what spirituality is and how to achieve it.
Even if you're lucky enough to get out of twi proper, people around you could still aggressively believe that it "just went astray" and hold wayworld tightly in the life of everyone around them, even if they are not with twi or it's offshoots.
Even if you're lucky enough to get out of twi proper, people around you could still aggressively believe that it "just went astray" and hold wayworld tightly in the life of everyone around them, even if they are not with twi or it's offshoots.
Bingo Bolshevik...all ya gotta do is read to see how correct you really are.
I think many of us have difficulty separating the people we knew and loved that were/are in TWI from the teachings and intent of the FMOG (fake man of god)....
We were there for a genuine reason and have trouble believing that the FMOG and his cohorts were there for a different reason. Because we are good honest believers we have a hard time believing someone would lie about their own walk with God and beliefs.
I am finding that I have to remind myself that from the get go the Way was not there for a spiritual reason. VP was a con man and worked his con big time not just on us but on his family and friends..... I believe people are essentially who they are and if given half a chance their real nature will shine through. I know some people try to excuse bad behavior by playing the I was a victim trump card but what I know from my own life is that people decide to be who they are in spite of what their life is as a child and young adult.
FMOG was an donkey butt from the get go... his life shouts this to high heaven... Where the ministry went spiritually wrong was with the founder who was anything but spiritual.
i agree with waysider and rumrunner..........there was never anything intrinsically noble within vic's "vision", motives or operation of twi........he sucked the idealism and desire to participate in a noble cause, beneficial to the whole of mankind, that was somehow briefly common to many of the "baby-boomers" coming of age in the late 60's and early 70's, into his narcissistic, self-serving, religious fascism to acquire whatever he could for his own twisted "dreams of success".........he was a total user of people, hijacking whatever noble causes other genuine human beings held into cloaking his own perverse megalomania and self-indulgent aryan philosophies with the genuine goodness and idealism he himself never possessed!
twi was rotten to the core from the beginning of any of our involvement..........i was duped and used.........embarrassing to realize and admit, but realizing it and leaving it, as difficult and overwhelmingly disappointing as it was, was far better than any other alternative.
i find twi's continued existence as enigmatic as the existence of the taliban........another religion of equal social benefit and "spiritual" value as twi..............truly, terroristic "birds of a feather", imho!...........would they'd just fly off together into the sun!.............peace.
This is an interesting thread...in the sense that it differentiates between those who thought twi was something that was good and went bad from those who believe it was always bad.
I agree with waysider, rumrunner and DWBH...In my opinion, if you are still thinking that the blue book has some value...you are still in the "cult mindset". Twi was Amway and Jim Jones rolled into one. Face it, we got conned by a good conman. The guy was selling wolf tickets...and we bought them.
One thing that I really, really like about imagine's first post is she posted from a POSITION of humility, as it opposes pride.
Many prideful people are more than capable of telling others that they are prideful because they disagree.
TWI was deceived in it's group think into thinking it was o.k. to subjegate others by calling them prideful and then requiring them to submit. Hence the leadership especially seemed to get ever more prideful and abusive as time went on.
The most insidious attacks in my former splinter group was when the leadership questioned one's pride in that smarmy, and arrogant TWI manner of calling one's pride into question whenever anyone seemed to be thinking for themselves. In these circumstances even the scriptures themselves were lowered to their level and were used as a tool to subjegate others.
I feel that this behavior may be more common in contemporary Christianity than many may be willing to consider, and I think that the ramifications of deluded group think that is enforced through the means of quelling all healthy discussion by calling folks to humility is frightening, whether it happens in a church, a family, or even a web-site.
THE REASON WHY I LIKE IMAGINE'S FIRST POST SO MUCH IS THAT IMAGINE SHARES ABOUT PRIDE AS IT RELATES TO SELF, AND NO OTHERS.
But I think that anyone coming from TWI is more than entitled to not be beat up in regards to these things as they learn to find their own voice. No voice is without it's own inherent significance after all.
Pride vs. humility considerations should be limited to self first, lest we fall prey to another prideful and deceptive group think perhaps. Or maybe fall prey to another prideful abuser who only seeks to lift themselves up. Or even worse just become insufferable little turds that can't see past the end of our own nose.
I'm just saying, with our unique TWI history, this topic can be tricky still.
Coming back to read the replies and thank you for all your interesting comments...
My point was not the WHEN of what went wrong, but more the WHAT of what went wrong.
I think the devil/adversary/god of this world has been against Christians and Christian-like groups forever.
He will do anything to make the Christianity look wrong or foolish.
Many well meaning and not so well meaning groups have been deceived by pride, both cult and organized churches alike.
What I found fascinating is how I personally had been influenced by the prideful "spirit" in The Way. As God showed me my pride, I can confess it and ask for deliverance.
I think that the pride of which you speak is merely a symptom of what was wrong rather than what was actually wrong itself.
A careful study of history, of him and the fruit of his life shows, I think, that it was always wrong. I think wierwille was a genuine wolf in sheeps clothing. He was cleverly disguised to deceive. He had to look good sound good to carry off the scharade....to fool otherwise well intentioned people.
Those whom were lured off track in their spiritual walk generally seem to have found their way back after being detoured...those who never had a spiritual compass to begin with prior to twi seem to be forever lost.
I think that the pride of which you speak is merely a symptom of what was wrong rather than what was wrong itself.
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Bolshevik
Notice a bad influence of pride in my life?
You coulda scooped it up with a backhoe all day . . .
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rascal
Absolutely. That is why I had to toss everything out I ever thought I knew and begin a new foundation to build upon....ie *Love God and Love your neighbor* was my starting place...
As far as I am concerned, all that knowledge really did was distract us from our real responsibility.
Prideful?? Shoot yeah, arrogant, belligerent, throw them in as well....I`d even go so far as to say that we were trained to tune out the very voice of God with the *renewed* mind as it was taught...that we were taught to silence our conscience and good sense with the whole retemorizing routine....lest we consider ...
Jesus didn`t say that we would know one another by how much knowledge we amassed or our works....I think that there very well may be many of us twi folks that are one day to our vast suprise...will be told be Jesus to *depart, for he knew us not*
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Bolshevik
"scire propter ipsum scire superbia est"
of course, they laughed and mocked anyone who considered going to school.
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Bolshevik
"scire propter amare"
" . . . People are complaining that we're not loving enough . . .LOVE!?!. . . .LOVE!?! . . . we're given 'em THE WORD!!!!!!!!! . . . .THAT's love!!! . . ." - lcm
music to a wayfers ears . . .
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waysider
It was a scam from the moment of its inception.
There was never anything to "go wrong, spiritually" because it was never a "spiritual" entity to begin with.
All it was, was a multi-level marketing scheme that evolved into a religious cult.
We were the hapless participants.
By thinking of it as some noble effort that went astray, we give it for more value and credibility than it deserves.
I'm not ashamed that I was deceived by The Way, but I'm not proud of it, either.
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JeffSjo
In my former splinter group I fell onto the wrong side of leadership and over the course of years watched them manipulate and scheme to counteract my influence within the group. In the end my life was mostly broken and they seemed only more entrenched in the kind of pride that allows them to follow false prophecies, one after another, while simultaneously patting themselves on the back for being able to destroy people that were only trying to help or insisted on thinking for themselves.
From my perspective and experience I am of the opinion that the kind of pride and/or false humility that we are talking about in this thread flows down from the top in a hierarchtical organization. In TWI I think it is completely fair to lay all the pride that Imagine is sharing about directly at Wierwille's feet.
I've heard many sharings that make it perfectly clear that Wierwille was able and willing to destoy the lives of anyone he saw fit while at the helm of TWI. So it seems clear to me that the attitudes of Martindale, Rosie, and many others were the direct result of Wierwille's guidance. Otherwise he surely would have crushed them as he did many others.
Of course once these people held the power they did to Wierwille what he taught them to do to others, they pushed him out of their way and took power. All the while using well intentioned people to win others to TWI. Many were taught the same kind of pride through example if nothing else IMO.
And since I now am certain that I was not taught "God's Word as it had not been known since the first century" my former confidence seems relegated to a kind of false pride at it's root where everything that is built on that false confidence in TWI seems destined for a pride caused fall, whether before men now or before the Lord in heaven.
And even in my mostly broken state I can sometimes feel the urge to pat myself on the back sometimes for simply not giving in to my former splinter group's pressure. It seems that the kind of pride that Imagine is talking about is always a possibility at any given moment. I'm just a little relieved that I will not have to answer to the Lord for building a worldwide ministry on prideful estimations of my own worthiness.
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Twinky
Went wrong? Was it ever "right"??
Was built on pride, ego, greed, a scam. A counterfeit, with just enough truth to suck in the genuinely innocent and pure of heart.
Some of the doctrines were correct.
But, as with the Pharisees, we be best instructed to follow the words, but NOT the actions.
Just think how surprised you would be if the following happened!
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rascal
I guess that I am in agreement with you twinky, I don`t think that ever really WAS right. From the very beginning, even as a minister wierwille was searching for ways around the rules and practices that he didn`t like.
I think that being a christian is something that we are inside...that if it is real and genuine, we don`t have a life long struggle with loving our neighbor with the love of God instead of lusting after their wife, their property, jealous of anothers riches etc.
I don`t think the man ever knew...I think that he was always trying to find the right formula the right combination the right magic hocus pocus that make him into a spiritual being.
I think his life is a sad testimony of ever searching, but never actually coming unto a knowledge of the truth...The thing is he managed to drag a good many genuine christians off track with him.....Many woke up, those who`s introduction to God came via twi...I think it will be very difficult to overcome the false teachings, the idea of what spirituality is and how to achieve it.
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RumRunner
This is the most accurate and, at the same time, succinct comment on this thread. Odd that the usual loquacious ones didn't make any comment on it.
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Bolshevik
Waysider's fifth line is a big one.
Even if you're lucky enough to get out of twi proper, people around you could still aggressively believe that it "just went astray" and hold wayworld tightly in the life of everyone around them, even if they are not with twi or it's offshoots.
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RumRunner
Bingo Bolshevik...all ya gotta do is read to see how correct you really are.
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Bolshevik
read? usually you just walk out the front door.
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leafytwiglet
I think many of us have difficulty separating the people we knew and loved that were/are in TWI from the teachings and intent of the FMOG (fake man of god)....
We were there for a genuine reason and have trouble believing that the FMOG and his cohorts were there for a different reason. Because we are good honest believers we have a hard time believing someone would lie about their own walk with God and beliefs.
I am finding that I have to remind myself that from the get go the Way was not there for a spiritual reason. VP was a con man and worked his con big time not just on us but on his family and friends..... I believe people are essentially who they are and if given half a chance their real nature will shine through. I know some people try to excuse bad behavior by playing the I was a victim trump card but what I know from my own life is that people decide to be who they are in spite of what their life is as a child and young adult.
FMOG was an donkey butt from the get go... his life shouts this to high heaven... Where the ministry went spiritually wrong was with the founder who was anything but spiritual.
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DontWorryBeHappy
i agree with waysider and rumrunner..........there was never anything intrinsically noble within vic's "vision", motives or operation of twi........he sucked the idealism and desire to participate in a noble cause, beneficial to the whole of mankind, that was somehow briefly common to many of the "baby-boomers" coming of age in the late 60's and early 70's, into his narcissistic, self-serving, religious fascism to acquire whatever he could for his own twisted "dreams of success".........he was a total user of people, hijacking whatever noble causes other genuine human beings held into cloaking his own perverse megalomania and self-indulgent aryan philosophies with the genuine goodness and idealism he himself never possessed!
twi was rotten to the core from the beginning of any of our involvement..........i was duped and used.........embarrassing to realize and admit, but realizing it and leaving it, as difficult and overwhelmingly disappointing as it was, was far better than any other alternative.
i find twi's continued existence as enigmatic as the existence of the taliban........another religion of equal social benefit and "spiritual" value as twi..............truly, terroristic "birds of a feather", imho!...........would they'd just fly off together into the sun!.............peace.
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JeffSjo
This is
but I'll make it quick.
Taliban vs. TWI:
In a gunfight the Taliban wins hands down.
But if TWI can convince them to put away their automatic weapons then TWI leadership will have them mentally exhausted in short order and would win.
Of course at least the Taliban would have the good sense to use their guns once they understood what TWI leadership was doing to them.
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JeffSjo
I am not joking when I say that I have considered whether or not I should apologize to the Taliban.
I will not.
I wasn't the one who compared them to The Way International.
I just said that they had enough sense to actually win a fight with them. :P (o.k., I may be joking just a LITTLE BIT.)
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doojable
Here's an appropro song:
'Rusty Halo' by The Script
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOpgGwZaY0A...PL&index=14
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WordWolf
I agree- but not in the manner you meant.
It was vpw's pride that poisoned twi from its earliest days-
"I'm too important to farm" "I'm too important to work a full-time job"
"I want everyone to listen to me"
etc etc.
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GrouchoMarxJr
This is an interesting thread...in the sense that it differentiates between those who thought twi was something that was good and went bad from those who believe it was always bad.
I agree with waysider, rumrunner and DWBH...In my opinion, if you are still thinking that the blue book has some value...you are still in the "cult mindset". Twi was Amway and Jim Jones rolled into one. Face it, we got conned by a good conman. The guy was selling wolf tickets...and we bought them.
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Oakspear
Just sayin'
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JeffSjo
One thing that I really, really like about imagine's first post is she posted from a POSITION of humility, as it opposes pride.
Many prideful people are more than capable of telling others that they are prideful because they disagree.
TWI was deceived in it's group think into thinking it was o.k. to subjegate others by calling them prideful and then requiring them to submit. Hence the leadership especially seemed to get ever more prideful and abusive as time went on.
The most insidious attacks in my former splinter group was when the leadership questioned one's pride in that smarmy, and arrogant TWI manner of calling one's pride into question whenever anyone seemed to be thinking for themselves. In these circumstances even the scriptures themselves were lowered to their level and were used as a tool to subjegate others.
I feel that this behavior may be more common in contemporary Christianity than many may be willing to consider, and I think that the ramifications of deluded group think that is enforced through the means of quelling all healthy discussion by calling folks to humility is frightening, whether it happens in a church, a family, or even a web-site.
THE REASON WHY I LIKE IMAGINE'S FIRST POST SO MUCH IS THAT IMAGINE SHARES ABOUT PRIDE AS IT RELATES TO SELF, AND NO OTHERS.
But I think that anyone coming from TWI is more than entitled to not be beat up in regards to these things as they learn to find their own voice. No voice is without it's own inherent significance after all.
Pride vs. humility considerations should be limited to self first, lest we fall prey to another prideful and deceptive group think perhaps. Or maybe fall prey to another prideful abuser who only seeks to lift themselves up. Or even worse just become insufferable little turds that can't see past the end of our own nose.
I'm just saying, with our unique TWI history, this topic can be tricky still.
Take care and God Bless.
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Imagine
Coming back to read the replies and thank you for all your interesting comments...
My point was not the WHEN of what went wrong, but more the WHAT of what went wrong.
I think the devil/adversary/god of this world has been against Christians and Christian-like groups forever.
He will do anything to make the Christianity look wrong or foolish.
Many well meaning and not so well meaning groups have been deceived by pride, both cult and organized churches alike.
What I found fascinating is how I personally had been influenced by the prideful "spirit" in The Way. As God showed me my pride, I can confess it and ask for deliverance.
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rascal
I think that the pride of which you speak is merely a symptom of what was wrong rather than what was actually wrong itself.
A careful study of history, of him and the fruit of his life shows, I think, that it was always wrong. I think wierwille was a genuine wolf in sheeps clothing. He was cleverly disguised to deceive. He had to look good sound good to carry off the scharade....to fool otherwise well intentioned people.
Those whom were lured off track in their spiritual walk generally seem to have found their way back after being detoured...those who never had a spiritual compass to begin with prior to twi seem to be forever lost.
I think that the pride of which you speak is merely a symptom of what was wrong rather than what was wrong itself.
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Bolshevik
people probably brought pride into twi also. (not to say it wasn't founded on it).
folks didn't want to deal with their own problems.
"Hey look! twi says I don't I have too! I've found the magic bullet! I'll follow them and prove my friends and family wrong! . . ."
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