the greeks knowledge of hell is in the definitions of words?
rather bland and lacking the experience
No, their beliefs are communicated by the words, as are those of the Hebrews. But the words they use must be understood in their context and usage.
Odd that the writer's of the New Testament would use well known Greek words for well known concepts/beliefs, but mean something entirely different than the accepted use of the words. Seems like that would be horribly confusing to all the newbie gentile converts. Or maybe it was one of those'Christianize the pagan belief to win converts' deals.
Not so odd, when you consider that the word hades had been used to translate sheol in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) which was many years before Christ. They were both talking about the abode of the dead - they just had different beliefs about what it was like.
Even in Greek and Hebrew and English it exceeds it's boundaries.
I'm not sure what your point is. I already said their beliefs are not based on language alone. Beliefs are ideas which are communicated by language. What do you mean by another language?
I woulda thought a paradise to be wiped out by the flood.
wait, twi taught devil spirits caused the flood, so maybe the gates of hell were opened, and it was wiped out too . . .Hell is a "was" not an "is" maybe. . .
didn't the ascended jesus go visit the captive spirits? brought them a cake or something, maybe some Easter eggs. It was beyond the deep or something . . . or Europa, one Jupiter's moons . . .
is it possible that there are higher things being communicated
not bound by books but unbound by the spirit
not just what's on the surface
but that which is hidden within
meanings will change and change again
much like parables, the hearer hears more
as the bible is opened to us by the spirit
and not by limited definitions of words
His thoughts are higher than ours but He still chose to communicate to us with words. That's the whole point of the Scriptures. True, the holy spirit can enlighten us as we read the Scriptures, but the Scripture has to be where it starts. Nothing the spirit shows us can contradict what God has written. And again, it's not just "definitions of words," it's understanding what they mean by observing how they are used, and understanding concepts by what words are used. As I said, both Jews and Greeks in the first century used the word hades, but when you consider what they each said about it, you see the difference in their meanings.
True, the holy spirit can enlighten us as we read the Scriptures
The Holy Spirit can enlighten anyway it pleases,
and not by scripture alone or even without it..
Even without scripture, words of God are spoken, present tense.
It is not determined by the will of man when, how, or why.
The scripture is Not the determining factor.
Man teaching scripture is not the determining factor.
The Lord is and his will.
Not that a knowledge of what scripture says.
Or the various meanings of the words.
New meanings and intent and purpose.
Just what is enlightenment?
If you already have it figured out ?!
Yes the scriptures can enlighten, but who's enlightening who?
Is the scriptures needed? Are they a requirement for knowing?
If so why would the Holy Spirit limit itself so?
it's not just "definitions of words," it's understanding what they mean by observing how they are used, and understanding concepts by what words are used
I agree in principle but not in the confines you set this in.
There are meanings, not just one.
Again this is Holy Spirit moving inside and around an individual and perhaps more who see other meanings and even one who can see more then one meaning.
understanding concepts
Concepts to some - reality to others.
Big difference in actual enlightenment.
Along with a growing realization of concepts.
and then actually walking through that door for real..
Yes, there are many. nor anything wrong with either
As I said, both Jews and Greeks in the first century used the word hades, but when you consider what they each said about it, you see the difference in their meanings
It's likely that the word 'hades' is more of knowing by being shown as you have said. And that which is being shown is 1st hand experience. Which takes one by surprise in it's depth, in it's living reality now, in it's truth that is here yet to be discovered.
The discovery can be future I suppose, but it's here, alive and accessible.
It's likely that the word 'hades' is more of knowing by being shown as you have said. And that which is being shown is 1st hand experience. Which takes one by surprise in it's depth, in it's living reality now, in it's truth that is here yet to be discovered.
Who has first hand experience of hades and has communicated it to us?
Yeah....hm
If all we go by is the bible, we are limited greatly.
That's true. If it weren't for the Bible, anybody could believe anything they wanted to. Come to think of it, many people do!
Who has first hand experience of hades and has communicated it to us?
Have you ever even read the bible?
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And somehow this is thought of as future?
How long will one hold hell? when he sees it?
Does it state when? who? or all at the same time?
No.
Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And somehow this is thought of as future?
How long will one hold hell? when he sees it?
Does it state when? who? or all at the same time?
No.
Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Besides the Lazarus parable.
Of which it's beauty remains hidden
"Somehow"? How could it NOT be future? The devil has not been bound, Christ and the saints have not reigned on earth for a thousand years, the devil has not gathered great armies against the saints after being released, and the Great White Throne judgment has not taken place. All these things take place BEFORE verses 13 and 14 which you quoted.
Your point was that 'hades' is "more of knowing by being shown" by "1st hand experience." No one has had first hand experience of hades and told anyone about it. If Lazarus told anyone what it was like, it isn't recorded anywhere. And the men of God who wrote by revelation from God described it in several places as being a state of unconsciousness.
Odd that the writer's of the New Testament would use well known Greek words for well known concepts/beliefs, but mean something entirely different than the accepted use of the words. Seems like that would be horribly confusing to all the newbie gentile converts. Or maybe it was one of those'Christianize the pagan belief to win converts' deals.
Not so odd, when you consider that the word hades had been used to translate sheol in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) which was many years before Christ. They were both talking about the abode of the dead - they just had different beliefs about what it was like.
I think it's fairly likely that whoever translated sheol as hades didn't fully understand one or the other of the two concepts (assuming of course that sheol does mean an unconscious state of the dead). The Septuagint is, in some places, translated beautifully and idiomatically, while in others it's a poor translation indeed. It would have been very easy to transliterate "sheol" rather than translate it inaccurately. After all, isn't that what they did with "gehenna"?
Odd that the writer's of the New Testament would use well known Greek words for well known concepts/beliefs, but mean something entirely different than the accepted use of the words. Seems like that would be horribly confusing to all the newbie gentile converts. Or maybe it was one of those'Christianize the pagan belief to win converts' deals.
Sheol is Hebrew and Hades is Greek. Usually, if you see the original word simply transliterated, it is because the translators had a difficult time of trying to bring into the host language.
Someone asked about the origins of the word hades. In Homer's Odyssey, Hades is the brother of Zeus and god of the underworld or realm of the dead. In later Greek writings hades refers to his kingdom.
The ancient Sumerians (circ.4000) had very illustrious ideas about the Underworld, beyond the simple notion of the mind doomed to drawing a blank.
I always found fascinating the legend of the goddess Inanna's Descent into the Underworld, where by the ruler of death (according to some her evil, dark twin sister) she was stripped of her clothing and power, heavily afflicted and laden with guilt and wrath and transformed into "a corpse hung on a hook". She was brought back to life and escaped the Underworld, with her ultimately offering her husband and his sister to the powers of death to legally take her place.
For tales about Inanna translated from the ancient Sumerian tablets, check out "Inanna: Queen of Heaven and Earth" by Diana Wolkstein & Samuel Noah Kramer.
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Mark Clarke
No, their beliefs are communicated by the words, as are those of the Hebrews. But the words they use must be understood in their context and usage.
Not so odd, when you consider that the word hades had been used to translate sheol in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) which was many years before Christ. They were both talking about the abode of the dead - they just had different beliefs about what it was like.
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cman
Never considered another language Mark?
A new tongue within tongues beyond language.
Though using it..
"their beliefs?" based on language alone?
Even in Greek and Hebrew and English it exceeds it's boundaries.
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Mark Clarke
I'm not sure what your point is. I already said their beliefs are not based on language alone. Beliefs are ideas which are communicated by language. What do you mean by another language?
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cman
the language of the Spirit, Mark
not definitions and sentence structure
if his thoughts are higher then ours
then wouldn't his communication be also?
sure plenty of things to learn with definitions
is it possible that there are higher things being communicated
not bound by books but unbound by the spirit
not just what's on the surface
but that which is hidden within
meanings will change and change again
much like parables, the hearer hears more
as the bible is opened to us by the spirit
and not by limited definitions of words
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Bolshevik
wait, twi taught devil spirits caused the flood, so maybe the gates of hell were opened, and it was wiped out too . . .Hell is a "was" not an "is" maybe. . .
didn't the ascended jesus go visit the captive spirits? brought them a cake or something, maybe some Easter eggs. It was beyond the deep or something . . . or Europa, one Jupiter's moons . . .
Just make it up, anything will work.
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Bolshevik
twi didn't believe in hell, but
the devil is allowed to exist and hurt others, I'm sure he ain't really enjoying his time now, but he goes on and on and on
we're made to suffer now, on and on and on
Jesus is coming back, but he's taking his time . . .
left a tree in the garden with a self-destruct button . . .
common atheist arguments
but why wouldn't the same god have a place of eternal torment?
Maybe when I get there, I'll scream as loud as I can, if anyone hears my voice on the recordings, you'll know it's true.
Of course, it could be someone who just sounds like me, a false positive.
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Bolshevik
Of course, wasn't that the point of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom parable?
There's no point in discussing Hell? If people want to go, their gonna go.
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Mark Clarke
His thoughts are higher than ours but He still chose to communicate to us with words. That's the whole point of the Scriptures. True, the holy spirit can enlighten us as we read the Scriptures, but the Scripture has to be where it starts. Nothing the spirit shows us can contradict what God has written. And again, it's not just "definitions of words," it's understanding what they mean by observing how they are used, and understanding concepts by what words are used. As I said, both Jews and Greeks in the first century used the word hades, but when you consider what they each said about it, you see the difference in their meanings.
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cman
I disagree.
Especially in what determines the out come.
Cause if it's just scripture there is no balance,
a life is involved as well as others.
The Holy Spirit can enlighten anyway it pleases,
and not by scripture alone or even without it..
Even without scripture, words of God are spoken, present tense.
It is not determined by the will of man when, how, or why.
The scripture is Not the determining factor.
Man teaching scripture is not the determining factor.
The Lord is and his will.
Not that a knowledge of what scripture says.
Or the various meanings of the words.
New meanings and intent and purpose.
Just what is enlightenment?
If you already have it figured out ?!
Yes the scriptures can enlighten, but who's enlightening who?
Is the scriptures needed? Are they a requirement for knowing?
If so why would the Holy Spirit limit itself so?
I agree in principle but not in the confines you set this in.
There are meanings, not just one.
Again this is Holy Spirit moving inside and around an individual and perhaps more who see other meanings and even one who can see more then one meaning.
Concepts to some - reality to others.
Big difference in actual enlightenment.
Along with a growing realization of concepts.
and then actually walking through that door for real..
Yes, there are many. nor anything wrong with either
It's likely that the word 'hades' is more of knowing by being shown as you have said. And that which is being shown is 1st hand experience. Which takes one by surprise in it's depth, in it's living reality now, in it's truth that is here yet to be discovered.
The discovery can be future I suppose, but it's here, alive and accessible.
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RumRunner
Personally I prefer nice drive down LSD (Lake Shore Drive) while sampling all natural herbal appetizers - beats the heck out of scriptures.
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cman
Yeah....hm
If all we go by is the bible, we are limited greatly.
Not that there isn't great stuff in it.
But what did these people experience?
Did the bible come first or what they lived?
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Mark Clarke
Who has first hand experience of hades and has communicated it to us?
That's true. If it weren't for the Bible, anybody could believe anything they wanted to. Come to think of it, many people do!
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cman
Have you ever even read the bible?
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And somehow this is thought of as future?
How long will one hold hell? when he sees it?
Does it state when? who? or all at the same time?
No.
Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Besides the Lazarus parable.
Of which it's beauty remains hidden
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Mark Clarke
"Somehow"? How could it NOT be future? The devil has not been bound, Christ and the saints have not reigned on earth for a thousand years, the devil has not gathered great armies against the saints after being released, and the Great White Throne judgment has not taken place. All these things take place BEFORE verses 13 and 14 which you quoted.
Your point was that 'hades' is "more of knowing by being shown" by "1st hand experience." No one has had first hand experience of hades and told anyone about it. If Lazarus told anyone what it was like, it isn't recorded anywhere. And the men of God who wrote by revelation from God described it in several places as being a state of unconsciousness.
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cman
looking at perception again
perhaps there is a perceptive that you describe
that can be lived with and apart from
i however cannot nor deny others seen
we are individuals, and dealt with as such
collectively time is not a factor in the mind of Christ
cause if one expects to receive nothing
would that change anything?
is the will of God subject to us?
choosing to look away will not change what is already done
but a certain putting off of the inevitable face to face
with hell, with Christ, with yourself with-
the beginning of wisdom and understanding that is in us
and with us today
Not quite ' a state' nor 'unconsciousness'.
Subconscious I can agree to, but it will not stop there.
An absolute rejection of such, will hinder somewhat.
If hell were cast into the lake of fire.
Where was it cast from?
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Oakspear
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cman
i called them 'o my god, thank you'.....
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Dot Matrix
Cman good insight. I am still intrigued
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brideofjc
Sheol is Hebrew and Hades is Greek. Usually, if you see the original word simply transliterated, it is because the translators had a difficult time of trying to bring into the host language.
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oenophile
Someone asked about the origins of the word hades. In Homer's Odyssey, Hades is the brother of Zeus and god of the underworld or realm of the dead. In later Greek writings hades refers to his kingdom.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Pax can an interview with the guy
God loves you my fiends
because I may of VPW please do make me sit the class again not I am not sure
maybe if can a little closer for me to know for sure
thank you
with love and a holy kiss Roy
ps hope did say the same thing
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cman
Not sure what you are saying, Roy.
When you can, post again, if you want to.
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year2027
God first
Beloved cman
God loves you my friend
I was making a joke Dr VPW was crying please no more classes for me I heard it enough
the sound was Dr VPW crying from the hole
thank you
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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TheInvisibleDan
The ancient Sumerians (circ.4000) had very illustrious ideas about the Underworld, beyond the simple notion of the mind doomed to drawing a blank.
I always found fascinating the legend of the goddess Inanna's Descent into the Underworld, where by the ruler of death (according to some her evil, dark twin sister) she was stripped of her clothing and power, heavily afflicted and laden with guilt and wrath and transformed into "a corpse hung on a hook". She was brought back to life and escaped the Underworld, with her ultimately offering her husband and his sister to the powers of death to legally take her place.
For tales about Inanna translated from the ancient Sumerian tablets, check out "Inanna: Queen of Heaven and Earth" by Diana Wolkstein & Samuel Noah Kramer.
Danny
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