Hal Smith! The best wallpaper hanger in the world. How are you? I'm still here, man. Lakeland hasn't changed much but Tampa has. If you come to these parts again sometime, please visit.
Those are some good points. I, too, missed out on some history with my family because of putting the ministry first for 25 years. We were never really encouraged to become close with our family members unless they were in TWI or grads, etc. For example. most of my Thanksgivings were spent in TWI settings, not with my wonderful family. They must have thought I did not care. But they were loving anyway.
What was that dumbass phrase that was thrown around ... "Spirit is thicker than blood."
FreshAir, good to see you again too! Having served in top leadership positions in TWI as long you did, I respect your inside point of view.
This news article written by someone who has never been in TWI provides a similar conclusion. Notice this mans choice of words "secretive and reclusive group". Why did he use those words?
"The leadership at The Way has been wracked with turmoil and scandal in recent years. Following the retirement and death of its founder, Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille, the group was headed by Craig Martindale, who was forced to resign amid a barrage of lawsuits and allegations of sexual improprieties. Martindale was replaced at the helm of the secretive and reclusive group by Rosalie Rivenbark, who issued the order that McMullan be arrested."
See you later.
John Richeson
Tampa, FL
[This message was edited by igotout on January 12, 2003 at 19:55.]
Didnt it start with the idea/challenge to throw away all other publications and not watch TV for 3 months after the class....I remember hearing that challange as I looked out the window next to the reel to reel tape player that played the class that changed my life in more ways than I ever knew possible.
Hope and John , So good to have folks like you on the site here! Thanks for the good words. The only good side to the seclusion that we endured was the fellowship {can I say that word?] WITH GOOD PEOPLE LIKE YOU, SALT OF THE EARTH HONEST AND A FRIEND TO THOSE IN NEED.
After 30 years, and a second time through the Way Corps training, I saw first hand the way that TWI systematically "Institutionalized" the followers. I did all I knew how to speak up and to change things. We ended up on staff and did our best to truly love and train as we knew we should. The Corps training was set up to get you to quit thinking. Those who are left have given up thinking in exchange for the comfort of slavery.Galatians 4:9 says it all..they DESIRE to be in bondage. It is easier than thinking. I thank God daily that we made our "Shawshank Redemption" from The Prison Camp of the Rockies. Be thankful, don't give into bitterness, and love others as you know how to do, God will mete out justice in due time.
The corps program is now a "farm-program" for aquiring drone workers.....all in the guise of serving God.
Those who succumb to such tactics are sure to be led into a lifetime of twi servitude. Sorta reminds me of the eunuchs of old.
Should be interesting in the next 5 years to see how all this plays out. Seems to me, that its getting harder and harder to find ANYONE who wants to be a corps drone. There seems to be more going OUT THE BACK DOOR than coming in "the front."
For describing The Way experience, I don't think the word "seclusion" is accurate on its face. Going into seclusion means going off by yourself, dropping out of sight, away from all others, making yourself excluded from the rest of the world.
We were included in a community within the ministry, not really secluded. And yet, the cumulative effects of the words I might have preferred in the thread's title add up to a seclusion far more effective than living alone in a cabin in the wilderness.
As Hope recalled, the word "sanctified" was defined as "setting apart." Sanctification became the euphemistic, underlying principle for denying followers anything that was not part of The Way's program for living.
Followers were:
insulated from the world and culture;
separated from family and friends;
segregated from society, even from other castes within The Way social structure;
isolated from our neigbors;
alienated from the rest of God's family.
If that isn't seclusion, I don't know what is. Then again, suffocation isn't a bad word for it either.
quote:With no ACCOUNTABILITY......twi's trustees became/become self-imposing lords over innies. IMO all trustees are to be held accountable for such injustices.
It's my view that if/when folks were abused, they allowed themselves to be abused. The door was always open to leave. True, it was not a "democracy" by any stretch of the imagination. So what was the solution? LEAVE.
I think its more believable that most folks stayed so long (10, 15, 20, 25 years), to me anyway, because for them the benefits outweighed the "abuses".
quote:The Corps training was set up to get you to quit thinking. Those who are left have given up thinking in exchange for the comfort of slavery.Galatians 4:9 says it all..they DESIRE to be in bondage. It is easier than thinking.
This is a profound statement indeed.
If this is true, and they "DESIRE" to be in bondage, should we not stop blaming the trustees for an inate DESIRE "to be in bondage"?
thank you for writing that, some will not want to hear it.
Yet consider, for some it was a complex thing to give up a lifestyle , and often all family ties to admit wanting to leave.
many could not see any other life after awhile olds.
a person born and raised in an inner city has no idea what having a cabin in the mountains would be like and it is quite scary and vice versa a person born on a farm moving to the ghetto may have great trepidations.
And the way frightened people so with all the talk of Dying and such if you so much as consider any other train of thought.
oldiesman, when people are subjected to conditions of fear and stress, instincts seem to overwhelm the thought process. Victims feel trapped, even if they are not. Options are not so clear. They become like a "deer in headlights." Why do you think bullies act like bullies? Because intimidation works on most people.
PFAL's impact was to redefine our entire world-view in a very short period of time. Call that what you will. ("If it quacks like a duck...") No longer were we ordinary people. We were elevated, instantly and effortlessly, to a place of grace and grandeur, His kids, seated in the heavenlies, the hope of glory within us. It felt great. That was the bait. The hook was allegiance to The Way Ministry. The "Trustees" reeled us in.
To maintain this new image of ourselves, we had to accept the other teachings The Way offered. Otherwise, we were questioning God's own wonderful gift. Who were we to question? Had we sacrificed as much as Jesus, or Dr. Wierwille? How dare we suggest such a thing by questioning? Doubting is like stabbing them in the heart. The hearts that so loved us they gave...
We acquiesced to abundant sharing, the Way Tree, the "Man of God," the women belong to the king, "believing = receiving," and any number of other hooks intuitively used by leaders. Every aspect of our lives was redefined biblically, and the bible was defined by ("itself?" do you really believe that?) The Way.
By walking away from bad behavior, we had to walk away from the authority and credibility behind all we had been taught. But this became a "Catch-22" because when the sh_t hit the fan, those teachings were all we had left to depend on. We had rejected everything else. We had "put off the old man." Now what? Reject the teacher, reject the teachings. What else was left? Desolation, isolation, and total uncertainty. Don't think the leaders didn't know this. They wrapped themselves in the "integrity of the scriptures" the way politicians wrap themselves in the American flag.
I realize you don't believe this. You seem to think the teaching had integrity though the teacher didn't. You can only believe this by maintaining the tunnel vision The Way teachings imposed on us.
Whether battered, badgered or otherwise bullied, the survival mechanism kicks in and people are no longer "themselves." They may act rashly or logically, but they go into a kind of shock. Peripheral vision, and peripheral perspective ("common sense"), are lost. The "Stockholm Syndrome" is a good reference for this kind of behavior. Look at this website for some additional perspective on the impact you write off so casually: http://www.refocus.org/postcult.html
[This message was edited by QamiQazi on January 13, 2003 at 10:11.]
[This message was edited by QamiQazi on January 13, 2003 at 10:12.]
quote:oldiesman, when people are subjected to conditions of fear and stress, instincts seem to overwhelm the thought process. Victims feel trapped, even if they are not. Options are not so clear. They become like a "deer in headlights." Why do you think bullies act like bullies? Because intimidation works on most people.
Here's what I think: when folks signed up to go in the Corps, they basically gave their lives to The Way Ministry.
YOU DECIDED TO DO THAT!
Not me, not them..YOU.
YOU DECIDED TO BE UNDER THE COMPLETE INFLUENCE OF, AND COMPLETE DIRECTION OF, OTHER HUMAN BEINGS...
Now years later, you talk about being victims, under fear and stress...
so we're all fair game and jes askin' for it, eh ole-man.
remind me to never attend your "christian training program", o-m.
WHO IN THE .... ENCOURAGED EVERYONE TO "GIVE UP" THEIR LIVES FOR TWI, ANYWHO??? CAPTAIN HOWDY??? I remember it being the double-esteemed-for their-works-sake,upper echelon, slaver-at-every-word-o'-vic fools like BM, JAL, LCM and many others. u miss those years, o-m??
The corpes program was presented as THE way to learn how to BEST serve God in this relm....we were NEVER told that going
corps=giving your life to twi...EVER!
WE made the decisions because THEY inisisted that THEY spoke on God`s behalf...
THEY insisted that if WE didn`t obey them...if WE didn`t make the decision to go in the corps...that WE were ungratefull losers..worthless to God and a burden to the rest of the body of Christ....that WE refused to shoulder our share of the load...that we ought to just kill ourselves in order to rid the body of our noxious, useless presence.
We were bullied mercilessly untill we made a decision one way or another...and God help you if you didn`t go corps...you were just a bump on a log at fellowship...unworthey of respect or friendship...just a worthless piece of crap...salt with no savor...a moron with no gratitude to God or the ministry that brought you his matchless word word...you were NOTHING!!!
Damn right we were bullied into that decision and many others others by manipulation through our love for God....and our desire to be a blessing to the rest of the believers.
Who put us there?? Fool...it was a manipulative bunch of Godless, self serving beasts who only desired to fill the ranks so that when they sent in their anual twig/branch/limb reports...they looked good on paper.
It was the same deal for pfal/wow/adv classes....it never WAS about giving a damn about any of us suckers, or our spiritual growth.
oldiesman, it was the decision of 3000 Americans to go to work at the World Trade Center on 9/11/01. They were so stupid, they thought it was safe. Hell, they knew terrorists hate America. (It's in all the papers.) They knew the Trade Center had been a target once before. They knew that big jet airliners make a big hole in things they crash into, and lots of fire. They knew the Trade Center was the biggest building in New York, an easy target. But these morons went to work that day anyway. It was THEIR decision! Let's not blame bin Laden. They should have known better.
But you say, "Well they lived in a free and mighty country. Nobody dreamed this would really happen. The assumption was that the people in charge were able to prevent things from going wrong. People were reasonable to believe they were safe."
oldiesman, at at time when people considered the Corps, they believed (as you still do) that Dr. Wierwille had integrity. They believed that The Way was God-centered, and not a fraudulent little sham of a sect, scamming the pants off its followers. They believed the many false "proofs" of legitimacy served up to them on a silver platter by people who knew better. The Corps did not give their lives to The Way Ministry. They gave their lives to God. Or so they foolishly thought, because they believed what you yet believe. Fraud is a crime, oldiesman. Why do you think that is so? What is it about fraud that makes it evil? When you answer those questions, you will understand what you fail to grasp now.
Shame on you. You're comparing the Corps with people getting murdered?
The folks who died that day didn't know they'd be killed that day.
But the folks who signed up for the Corps, knew they were going on a program where they had to follow the direction of their coordinators/leaders. Was it possible you were subjected to fear and stress because that was part of the program, to OVERCOME fear and stress? Make you a stronger person?
It sounds to me like you're complaining that it was too tough....almost like signing up for the military, then complaining years later that they were too tough on you..
Hey, YOU SIGNED UP for it did you not?
And if you didn't like it the first few weeks, if it wasn't your thing, you could have left. Some did.
The unfortunate folks at the WTC who got killed couldn't leave, they were trapped and it was too late.
quote:We were bullied mercilessly untill we made a decision one way or another...and God help you if you didn`t go corps...you were just a bump on a log at fellowship...unworthey of respect or friendship...just a worthless piece of crap...salt with no savor...a moron with no gratitude to God or the ministry that brought you his matchless word word...you were NOTHING!!!
Oldies - I don't know when you left Twi. We got the boot in July of 2000. It was easy to leave. We weren't a rarity. There were a lot more people we knew who were out of TWI than those who were in!
But I think of the people who left or got kicked out in the 70's and 80's. They really had nowhere to turn if they'd completely sold out to TWI.
People who left back then were "tripped-out".
People who left after PoP were "cop-outs".
We were fortunate in that we didn't seclude ourselves by by making TWI our whole life - spiritual, social, theraputic - you name it, they had their finger in it if you were a true "disciple".
But back then - talk about feeling like a leper! There was something wrong spiritually with anyone who left TWI. And you had to be really screwed up to get kicked out!!!
Think about M&A - how scary is that? Talk about seculsion, separation, isolation - from a group that was supposed to be the "household" of God.
I've had people IGNORE me or turn the other way if they saw me in the mall. Just a week before Christmas, my old BC brushed me off with barely a nod. What if I had taken that to heart? What if I was one of those folks who made TWI their whole life?
We may have decided to go in the Corps, that's true. I went in because I wanted to help people. I had no idea about the direction that TWI was heading in. Did anyone out there have a crystal ball so they could see what was going to happen?
Yes - some of the choices I made in TWI were my own - but there plenty that weren't! Yes - I obeyed them, because the doctrine of TWI taught me I had to.
I was a victim. A victim of having the wool pulled over my eyes, a victim of being lied to and duped -- fooled by the wolves dressed in sheep's clothing. Did I follow them willingly? Yes. But that doesn't make me any less of a victim!
Oops... isolation - segregation -
Dissipation
Race Relations
Consolation
Segregation
Dispensation
Isolation
Exploitation
Mutilation
Mutations
Miscreation
Confirmation... to the evils of the world...
(from "Pastime Paradise" by Stevie Wonder)size>
Hope R. color>size>face>
Been living most their lives living in a pastime paradise - Stevie Wonder
Yeah, that about sums up the entire twi experience...
Every single one of those things I wrote were things either said to me personally through the years, or that I personally witnessed being said to a fellow believer by leadership....
Oldies, You cannot STAND to see the true twi, so in order to maintain your sanity, you have to accuse/believe everybody else of lying.
I don`t NEED to lie about twi.
[This message was edited by rascal on January 13, 2003 at 14:56.]
Shame on you. You're comparing the Corps with people getting murdered?
-No, I am using the same reasoning you are to illustrate the absurdity of it. The circumstances are irrelevant.
The folks who died that day didn't know they'd be killed that day.
But the folks who signed up for the Corps, knew they were going on a program where they had to follow the direction of their coordinators/leaders. Was it possible you were subjected to fear and stress because that was part of the program, to OVERCOME fear and stress? Make you a stronger person?
-The Way Ministry was an illegitimate organization. (How many times do I need to repeat that? How much evidence do you need?) The coordinators were incompetent amateurs with axes to grind, chips on their shoulders and considerable amount of power, once the Corps was in residence. This was not represented to prospective Corps applicants. Sorry, but full disclosure was not part of the devil's bargain. It never is, is it?
It sounds to me like you're complaining that it was too tough....almost like signing up for the military, then complaining years later that they were too tough on you..
-Tough is easy. Neurotic, sadistic and abusive is not called "tough." That is called "sick."
Hey, YOU SIGNED UP for it did you not?
-The Corps was a mutual commitment. The Way Ministry broke its part of the commitment, as I described above. They never intended to keep it because they knew they could not deliver. They didn't know God from a hole in the ground. They knew how to sell God. That was their ministry.
And if you didn't like it the first few weeks, if it wasn't your thing, you could have left. Some did.
-Ever hear the analogy of a frog in a pot? Heat it fast, he jumps out. Heat it slow, he boils to death. The Way leadership was an intelligent enemy, a calculating and manipulative group. They could play one person against the other, exploiting every weakness they knew how. They could be, and were, despicably conniving sh_ts. What else do you need to know?
The unfortunate folks at the WTC who got killed couldn't leave, they were trapped and it was too late.
-The Corps was not physically trapped, but they often burned bridges when they entered the program. They were encouraged to "sell out," and they often showed far more commitment than that piece of sh_t Rev. Martindale ever dreamed of, and the sc_mb_gs in leadership used that commitment to exploit them every way they knew how. They were also exploited by their fellow Corps and elder Corps who learned and played Dr. Wierwille's real game.
oldiesman, you think you got away smelling like a rose. You are mistaken. You are still deluded, and this is perpetuated by your own blind pride, which The Way Ministry manipulates to this day, and you don't even know it.
I think some people have scratched the word "victim" right out of their dictionary. They still believe we are all subject to the "pure law of believing." Seems to me that the miserable comforters said the same thing to Job when he was down (whether it is a fable or not, the moral of the story is still there). "We are only victims of ourselves."
Others see a crime, and re-classify the entire species of the injured party from "human being" to "victim." As if their fates have been completely taken out of their hands, in flesh, mind and spirit. This too, seems an error of mere degrees. This victim then becomes a victim of both self and the one (if any) who sold them the idea.
Yet others have re-defined what you can become a victim of. "You can only be a victim in body (such as murder), not in mind (such as being lied to)." I guess they've never been ripped off by a false advertisment, or threatened with spiritual loss after you've already bought the promise of spiritual gain. Either that, or they forgot about it.
My point.
No one can be 100% victim, or 0% victim to anything.
But to deny the degree or dimension of victimization, is to spit in the face of the wounded.
Anyway,
Re: System of Seclusion.
It seems TWI was wrong (gasp).
Practical error does not always first lead to doctrinal error, cuz...
Mental seclusion seemed to cause the physical seclusion.
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igotout
Hal Smith! The best wallpaper hanger in the world. How are you? I'm still here, man. Lakeland hasn't changed much but Tampa has. If you come to these parts again sometime, please visit.
Those are some good points. I, too, missed out on some history with my family because of putting the ministry first for 25 years. We were never really encouraged to become close with our family members unless they were in TWI or grads, etc. For example. most of my Thanksgivings were spent in TWI settings, not with my wonderful family. They must have thought I did not care. But they were loving anyway.
What was that dumbass phrase that was thrown around ... "Spirit is thicker than blood."
FreshAir, good to see you again too! Having served in top leadership positions in TWI as long you did, I respect your inside point of view.
This news article written by someone who has never been in TWI provides a similar conclusion. Notice this mans choice of words "secretive and reclusive group". Why did he use those words?
"The leadership at The Way has been wracked with turmoil and scandal in recent years. Following the retirement and death of its founder, Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille, the group was headed by Craig Martindale, who was forced to resign amid a barrage of lawsuits and allegations of sexual improprieties. Martindale was replaced at the helm of the secretive and reclusive group by Rosalie Rivenbark, who issued the order that McMullan be arrested."
See you later.
John Richeson
Tampa, FL
[This message was edited by igotout on January 12, 2003 at 19:55.]
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washingtonweather
Fresh,
Didnt it start with the idea/challenge to throw away all other publications and not watch TV for 3 months after the class....I remember hearing that challange as I looked out the window next to the reel to reel tape player that played the class that changed my life in more ways than I ever knew possible.
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smitty
Hope and John , So good to have folks like you on the site here! Thanks for the good words. The only good side to the seclusion that we endured was the fellowship {can I say that word?] WITH GOOD PEOPLE LIKE YOU, SALT OF THE EARTH HONEST AND A FRIEND TO THOSE IN NEED.
hal smith
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Buds
After 30 years, and a second time through the Way Corps training, I saw first hand the way that TWI systematically "Institutionalized" the followers. I did all I knew how to speak up and to change things. We ended up on staff and did our best to truly love and train as we knew we should. The Corps training was set up to get you to quit thinking. Those who are left have given up thinking in exchange for the comfort of slavery.Galatians 4:9 says it all..they DESIRE to be in bondage. It is easier than thinking. I thank God daily that we made our "Shawshank Redemption" from The Prison Camp of the Rockies. Be thankful, don't give into bitterness, and love others as you know how to do, God will mete out justice in due time.
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Hope R.
Profound, Buds - truly insightful. Thanks.
Hope R. color>size>face>
Life, what is it but a dream? - Lewis Carroll
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FreshAir 99
Buds,
I couldn't agree more.
The corps program is now a "farm-program" for aquiring drone workers.....all in the guise of serving God.
Those who succumb to such tactics are sure to be led into a lifetime of twi servitude. Sorta reminds me of the eunuchs of old.
Should be interesting in the next 5 years to see how all this plays out. Seems to me, that its getting harder and harder to find ANYONE who wants to be a corps drone. There seems to be more going OUT THE BACK DOOR than coming in "the front."
Wonder why?
:P-->
Fresh
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QamiQazi
For describing The Way experience, I don't think the word "seclusion" is accurate on its face. Going into seclusion means going off by yourself, dropping out of sight, away from all others, making yourself excluded from the rest of the world.
We were included in a community within the ministry, not really secluded. And yet, the cumulative effects of the words I might have preferred in the thread's title add up to a seclusion far more effective than living alone in a cabin in the wilderness.
As Hope recalled, the word "sanctified" was defined as "setting apart." Sanctification became the euphemistic, underlying principle for denying followers anything that was not part of The Way's program for living.
Followers were:
insulated from the world and culture;
separated from family and friends;
segregated from society, even from other castes within The Way social structure;
isolated from our neigbors;
alienated from the rest of God's family.
If that isn't seclusion, I don't know what is. Then again, suffocation isn't a bad word for it either.
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oldiesman
It's my view that if/when folks were abused, they allowed themselves to be abused. The door was always open to leave. True, it was not a "democracy" by any stretch of the imagination. So what was the solution? LEAVE.
I think its more believable that most folks stayed so long (10, 15, 20, 25 years), to me anyway, because for them the benefits outweighed the "abuses".
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oldiesman
This is a profound statement indeed.
If this is true, and they "DESIRE" to be in bondage, should we not stop blaming the trustees for an inate DESIRE "to be in bondage"?
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mj412
I agree with oldiesman completly .
He is so right.
thank you for writing that, some will not want to hear it.
Yet consider, for some it was a complex thing to give up a lifestyle , and often all family ties to admit wanting to leave.
many could not see any other life after awhile olds.
a person born and raised in an inner city has no idea what having a cabin in the mountains would be like and it is quite scary and vice versa a person born on a farm moving to the ghetto may have great trepidations.
And the way frightened people so with all the talk of Dying and such if you so much as consider any other train of thought.
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QamiQazi
oldiesman, when people are subjected to conditions of fear and stress, instincts seem to overwhelm the thought process. Victims feel trapped, even if they are not. Options are not so clear. They become like a "deer in headlights." Why do you think bullies act like bullies? Because intimidation works on most people.
PFAL's impact was to redefine our entire world-view in a very short period of time. Call that what you will. ("If it quacks like a duck...") No longer were we ordinary people. We were elevated, instantly and effortlessly, to a place of grace and grandeur, His kids, seated in the heavenlies, the hope of glory within us. It felt great. That was the bait. The hook was allegiance to The Way Ministry. The "Trustees" reeled us in.
To maintain this new image of ourselves, we had to accept the other teachings The Way offered. Otherwise, we were questioning God's own wonderful gift. Who were we to question? Had we sacrificed as much as Jesus, or Dr. Wierwille? How dare we suggest such a thing by questioning? Doubting is like stabbing them in the heart. The hearts that so loved us they gave...
We acquiesced to abundant sharing, the Way Tree, the "Man of God," the women belong to the king, "believing = receiving," and any number of other hooks intuitively used by leaders. Every aspect of our lives was redefined biblically, and the bible was defined by ("itself?" do you really believe that?) The Way.
By walking away from bad behavior, we had to walk away from the authority and credibility behind all we had been taught. But this became a "Catch-22" because when the sh_t hit the fan, those teachings were all we had left to depend on. We had rejected everything else. We had "put off the old man." Now what? Reject the teacher, reject the teachings. What else was left? Desolation, isolation, and total uncertainty. Don't think the leaders didn't know this. They wrapped themselves in the "integrity of the scriptures" the way politicians wrap themselves in the American flag.
I realize you don't believe this. You seem to think the teaching had integrity though the teacher didn't. You can only believe this by maintaining the tunnel vision The Way teachings imposed on us.
Whether battered, badgered or otherwise bullied, the survival mechanism kicks in and people are no longer "themselves." They may act rashly or logically, but they go into a kind of shock. Peripheral vision, and peripheral perspective ("common sense"), are lost. The "Stockholm Syndrome" is a good reference for this kind of behavior. Look at this website for some additional perspective on the impact you write off so casually: http://www.refocus.org/postcult.html
[This message was edited by QamiQazi on January 13, 2003 at 10:11.]
[This message was edited by QamiQazi on January 13, 2003 at 10:12.]
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oldiesman
Here's what I think: when folks signed up to go in the Corps, they basically gave their lives to The Way Ministry.
YOU DECIDED TO DO THAT!
Not me, not them..YOU.
YOU DECIDED TO BE UNDER THE COMPLETE INFLUENCE OF, AND COMPLETE DIRECTION OF, OTHER HUMAN BEINGS...
Now years later, you talk about being victims, under fear and stress...
HELLO..who put you there?
YOU.
Accept it. It was YOUR decision.
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alfakat
so we're all fair game and jes askin' for it, eh ole-man.
remind me to never attend your "christian training program", o-m.
WHO IN THE .... ENCOURAGED EVERYONE TO "GIVE UP" THEIR LIVES FOR TWI, ANYWHO??? CAPTAIN HOWDY??? I remember it being the double-esteemed-for their-works-sake,upper echelon, slaver-at-every-word-o'-vic fools like BM, JAL, LCM and many others. u miss those years, o-m??
sheesh, how klueless can u be????
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Vertical Limit
I'm just curious as to where you got this kind of thinking oldiesman. A movie? A book? A leader of a cult? What?
Have you even read My Stories? Searched for stories on all the different sites? Talked to anyone that was abused?
The blame does not lie at the feet of the victim!! You know we have a justice system in America because the blame does not belong to the victim!!
How about some reality instead of beatin that same old drum!!
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rascal
Oldies....HELLOOO
The corpes program was presented as THE way to learn how to BEST serve God in this relm....we were NEVER told that going
corps=giving your life to twi...EVER!
WE made the decisions because THEY inisisted that THEY spoke on God`s behalf...
THEY insisted that if WE didn`t obey them...if WE didn`t make the decision to go in the corps...that WE were ungratefull losers..worthless to God and a burden to the rest of the body of Christ....that WE refused to shoulder our share of the load...that we ought to just kill ourselves in order to rid the body of our noxious, useless presence.
We were bullied mercilessly untill we made a decision one way or another...and God help you if you didn`t go corps...you were just a bump on a log at fellowship...unworthey of respect or friendship...just a worthless piece of crap...salt with no savor...a moron with no gratitude to God or the ministry that brought you his matchless word word...you were NOTHING!!!
Damn right we were bullied into that decision and many others others by manipulation through our love for God....and our desire to be a blessing to the rest of the believers.
Who put us there?? Fool...it was a manipulative bunch of Godless, self serving beasts who only desired to fill the ranks so that when they sent in their anual twig/branch/limb reports...they looked good on paper.
It was the same deal for pfal/wow/adv classes....it never WAS about giving a damn about any of us suckers, or our spiritual growth.
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QamiQazi
oldiesman, it was the decision of 3000 Americans to go to work at the World Trade Center on 9/11/01. They were so stupid, they thought it was safe. Hell, they knew terrorists hate America. (It's in all the papers.) They knew the Trade Center had been a target once before. They knew that big jet airliners make a big hole in things they crash into, and lots of fire. They knew the Trade Center was the biggest building in New York, an easy target. But these morons went to work that day anyway. It was THEIR decision! Let's not blame bin Laden. They should have known better.
But you say, "Well they lived in a free and mighty country. Nobody dreamed this would really happen. The assumption was that the people in charge were able to prevent things from going wrong. People were reasonable to believe they were safe."
oldiesman, at at time when people considered the Corps, they believed (as you still do) that Dr. Wierwille had integrity. They believed that The Way was God-centered, and not a fraudulent little sham of a sect, scamming the pants off its followers. They believed the many false "proofs" of legitimacy served up to them on a silver platter by people who knew better. The Corps did not give their lives to The Way Ministry. They gave their lives to God. Or so they foolishly thought, because they believed what you yet believe. Fraud is a crime, oldiesman. Why do you think that is so? What is it about fraud that makes it evil? When you answer those questions, you will understand what you fail to grasp now.
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oldiesman
Qami,
Shame on you. You're comparing the Corps with people getting murdered?
The folks who died that day didn't know they'd be killed that day.
But the folks who signed up for the Corps, knew they were going on a program where they had to follow the direction of their coordinators/leaders. Was it possible you were subjected to fear and stress because that was part of the program, to OVERCOME fear and stress? Make you a stronger person?
It sounds to me like you're complaining that it was too tough....almost like signing up for the military, then complaining years later that they were too tough on you..
Hey, YOU SIGNED UP for it did you not?
And if you didn't like it the first few weeks, if it wasn't your thing, you could have left. Some did.
The unfortunate folks at the WTC who got killed couldn't leave, they were trapped and it was too late.
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Vertical Limit
The unfortunate folks at the TWI who got FXXXXD couldn't leave, they were trapped and it was too late.
Get It Fella??
[This message was edited by Modaustin on January 13, 2003 at 13:54.]
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oldiesman
Excuse me, but WHAT A CROCK!!
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alfakat
some folks on this forum sound like they got to likin' bein' kicked in the teeth by twi. kept comin' back for more...
God forbid anyone should complain about this treatment--AFTER ALL, WE ASKED FOR IT--right, o-m???
You're kind of thinking is just what those klowns were after...maybe YOU got kicked out od the kork and came back beggin' for more, eh, o-m????
how come you left, anyways??
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Hope R.
Oldies - I don't know when you left Twi. We got the boot in July of 2000. It was easy to leave. We weren't a rarity. There were a lot more people we knew who were out of TWI than those who were in!
But I think of the people who left or got kicked out in the 70's and 80's. They really had nowhere to turn if they'd completely sold out to TWI.
People who left back then were "tripped-out".
People who left after PoP were "cop-outs".
We were fortunate in that we didn't seclude ourselves by by making TWI our whole life - spiritual, social, theraputic - you name it, they had their finger in it if you were a true "disciple".
But back then - talk about feeling like a leper! There was something wrong spiritually with anyone who left TWI. And you had to be really screwed up to get kicked out!!!
Think about M&A - how scary is that? Talk about seculsion, separation, isolation - from a group that was supposed to be the "household" of God.
I've had people IGNORE me or turn the other way if they saw me in the mall. Just a week before Christmas, my old BC brushed me off with barely a nod. What if I had taken that to heart? What if I was one of those folks who made TWI their whole life?
We may have decided to go in the Corps, that's true. I went in because I wanted to help people. I had no idea about the direction that TWI was heading in. Did anyone out there have a crystal ball so they could see what was going to happen?
Yes - some of the choices I made in TWI were my own - but there plenty that weren't! Yes - I obeyed them, because the doctrine of TWI taught me I had to.
I was a victim. A victim of having the wool pulled over my eyes, a victim of being lied to and duped -- fooled by the wolves dressed in sheep's clothing. Did I follow them willingly? Yes. But that doesn't make me any less of a victim!
Oops... isolation - segregation -
Dissipation
Race Relations
Consolation
Segregation
Dispensation
Isolation
Exploitation
Mutilation
Mutations
Miscreation
Confirmation... to the evils of the world...
(from "Pastime Paradise" by Stevie Wonder)size>
Hope R. color>size>face>
Been living most their lives living in a pastime paradise - Stevie Wonder
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rascal
What a crock??? WHAT A CROCK????
Yeah, that about sums up the entire twi experience...
Every single one of those things I wrote were things either said to me personally through the years, or that I personally witnessed being said to a fellow believer by leadership....
Oldies, You cannot STAND to see the true twi, so in order to maintain your sanity, you have to accuse/believe everybody else of lying.
I don`t NEED to lie about twi.
[This message was edited by rascal on January 13, 2003 at 14:56.]
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QamiQazi
oldiesman, you think you got away smelling like a rose. You are mistaken. You are still deluded, and this is perpetuated by your own blind pride, which The Way Ministry manipulates to this day, and you don't even know it.
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sirguessalot
I think some people have scratched the word "victim" right out of their dictionary. They still believe we are all subject to the "pure law of believing." Seems to me that the miserable comforters said the same thing to Job when he was down (whether it is a fable or not, the moral of the story is still there). "We are only victims of ourselves."
Others see a crime, and re-classify the entire species of the injured party from "human being" to "victim." As if their fates have been completely taken out of their hands, in flesh, mind and spirit. This too, seems an error of mere degrees. This victim then becomes a victim of both self and the one (if any) who sold them the idea.
Yet others have re-defined what you can become a victim of. "You can only be a victim in body (such as murder), not in mind (such as being lied to)." I guess they've never been ripped off by a false advertisment, or threatened with spiritual loss after you've already bought the promise of spiritual gain. Either that, or they forgot about it.
My point.
No one can be 100% victim, or 0% victim to anything.
But to deny the degree or dimension of victimization, is to spit in the face of the wounded.
Anyway,
Re: System of Seclusion.
It seems TWI was wrong (gasp).
Practical error does not always first lead to doctrinal error, cuz...
Mental seclusion seemed to cause the physical seclusion.
The doctrinal harm is what led to practical harm.
Todd
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