I'm gonna put in my two cents' worth and say IMO only the men who controlled the church before, during, and after the reformation. I watched a smidgen of a PBS program on the English reformation, which came after the German reformation chronologically. It dealt with men like Tyndale and someone else who founded the Lollards whose name escapes me, John somebody I think. I know Tyndale translated the Bible into English and Luther into probably German (?) and so they would have to had been the ones who said "Oh, by golly, I think I'll just make sure everyone understands women are inferior and men are superior.
Just my opinion. I think a lot of men admire and respect women, but of course it's the ones who don't that get in a lot of trouble.
WGfor causi
Unfortunately, it predates then as well....even Augustine was a mysoginist...and Jerome, the author of the Latin Vulgate was so brazen that he actually changed the case ending on Junia's name to JUNIAS - i.e. from female to male.
Need I say more....?????
Then I forget which one....could be Augustine....who BLAMED some woman for causing him to get aroused at the sounds of her skirts swishing in the hallway of the monastery that he was staying in at the time. Like she knew he was in that particular room and so deliberately walked by causing her skirts to SWISH!!! OMG!
Seems to me he should have CONTROLLED HIMSELF, do ya think?
Then I forget which one....could be Augustine....who BLAMED some woman for causing him to get aroused at the sounds of her skirts swishing in the hallway of the monastery that he was staying in at the time. Like she knew he was in that particular room and so deliberately walked by causing her skirts to SWISH!!! OMG!
Seems to me he should have CONTROLLED HIMSELF, do ya think?
Seems to me he should have gone on a date with Rosy Palm and her five sisters or perhaps Palmela Handerson...and just kept his mouth shut, stopped whining, and stopped blaming others for his own physical desires...or is that some twisted act as well?!?!?!
My maternal grandfather was very old fashioned in many respects. But as far as women goes he taught me a huge lesson once.
When we were discussing submission we also discussed children and the marriage relationship. He told me that in the old days that women worked side by side with their husbands and also worked just as hard or harder sometimes than the men. When it came to the day after day, back breaking labor of clearing fields, or planting and harvesting them, chopping firewood, tending to the animals, or tending to the children that the women he grew up around were just as worthy of respect as the men were. And he also thought some of the TWI attitudes that I had learned were b.s. (Except when he told me that he didn't abbreviate anything.)
I don't ever remember him buying into even one of my lame excuses for my own faults either, even though I never doubted his love.
I am fairly certain that he would have thought Augustine's example was b.s. too. He never, ever excused the bullying of any woman. And I always knew that when he told me that I'd be answering to him for any misbehavior along these lines that he meant what he said.
This just flashed across my brain - when we were meeting for the first time with the new church plant, a commitment form was passed out. It had to do with "sacrificial giving" but also had a phrase in there about agreeing to "submission to leadership."
Needless to say, we never signed one although Mr. Garden does some business stuff for them. And though I had a weak moment when I thought I wanted to, Mr. Garden never brought one home. I suspect he feels as I do, that after the TWI fiasco, ain't never signin' away my freedom again!
No, not BECAUSE of men, but BY men. If you can fix the odds in your favor....if you know what I mean by that....then say that it is the will of God that you OBEY these rules....
Then keep people (especially the underlings) ignorant of the original languages that the English texts were translated from..well....OMG!
Snowball keeps getting bigger and bigger.....when will it end?
Yes bride - it is all the fault of men - at least your wording sounds like that - NOT religion which controls men as much as women via brainwashing but simply leaves them with the upper social hand. As if all the men of all time said, "Hey bro we can do this to women." Keep your misandry on some radical thread and keep your false religious accusations where they belong - like in some place where people do not take accountability for their own actions - but conveniently use race, gender, sexual orientation, and any other excuse to blame someone else for their biases.
How sad the long grip of religion, its infatuation with "a" holy spirit (name your drug's flavor) and its drug-like effect on honesty and humanity.
We had our first official community group meeting at this guy's house last night - him, his wife, another couple and ourselves. I realized as a result of one of the exercises, where each person had to answer two questions, exactly how distrustful I am. The first question was when did you first experience the need for God and ask Him to come into your life - that's a paraphrase I can't remember the exact words. Now the Neo-Calvinists say that if you can't give the exact date, place, time and context of your being saved you most likely are not saved at all.
So I passed. I do pretty much know when I wanted to become closer to God, when I asked Jesus Christ into my heart, but I just didn't think it was any of their damn business.
I am meeting with the minister at the little church that we have attended sporadically since leaving twi next week.
I have been a part of this group, worked with the youth, was a part of their womens group...the whole family attends sunday night bible study....I was rabidly against officially joining. I`ll be damned if anybody will get me to commit to anything and then demand subservience in God`s name ever again.
Well, it turns out that if my kiddos and I are members, it opens all kinds of doors college wise. Scholarships, money for dorm rooms etc. I told the minister who is a dear friend that while I trusted her and the current people who attended our church, what happens in a couple of years when she completely retires...what if the person who replaces her is a real goober?
Well I guess that in truth I will be promising no more than I currently do...dfo my best to serve God and support the church which Linda says that can mean the whole church, the body of Christ. I love these people and for many years have considered myself *home* ..., I don`t know maybe this rabid fear of officially being a member or reluctance to admit that I want to join a church is the next big step in my healing.
I don`t know if I will ever submit to anybody ever again in God`s name..I may be broken beyond repair. I think God gets it though.
Rascal, I don't think you are broken beyond repair, I think you are just being cautious and wise.
I do not believe for one milimicron of a nanosecond that I have to commit to a group of people, a building, or a name, other than the Name of Jesus Christ as my Savior. I consider myself a member of the Body of Christ. All the rest is just window dressing, hype, and an excuse to ask for money.
Boy, am I a touchy little thing this morning or what?
WG
I don't know how to put one of those cool one-liners on the bottom of my posts like y'all do, but if I did, it would be a line from that song that introduces one of the CSI shows:
I don't know how to put one of those cool one-liners on the bottom of my posts like y'all do, but if I did, it would be a line from that song that introduces one of the CSI shows:
"We won't get fooled again!"
Click on your name (ie go to your profile), under the first tab (default) you will see a box called Content - at the bottom a link saying "Edit your signature" Click on that and add what you want.
The song above BTW is by The Who with that same title - "Won't get fooled again"
Yes bride - it is all the fault of men - at least your wording sounds like that - NOT religion which controls men as much as women via brainwashing but simply leaves them with the upper social hand. As if all the men of all time said, "Hey bro we can do this to women." Keep your misandry on some radical thread and keep your false religious accusations where they belong - like in some place where people do not take accountability for their own actions - but conveniently use race, gender, sexual orientation, and any other excuse to blame someone else for their biases.
How sad the folong grip of religion, its infatuation with "a" holy spirit (name your drug's flavor) and its drug-like effect on honesty and humanity.
Not all the fault of rvery man, it started with Adam. He refused to take the blame for what happened, pointed at Eve, she pointed at the serpent. God started with the serpent and went back the way it came and ended up with Adam, apparently where the blame belonged for the most part.
But because in all honesty, since men have more muscles, yup...it doesn't take a Ph.D. to figger out who has won the tussle.
I am meeting with the minister at the little church that we have attended sporadically since leaving twi next week.
I have been a part of this group, worked with the youth, was a part of their womens group...the whole family attends sunday night bible study....I was rabidly against officially joining. I`ll be damned if anybody will get me to commit to anything and then demand subservience in God`s name ever again.
Well, it turns out that if my kiddos and I are members, it opens all kinds of doors college wise. Scholarships, money for dorm rooms etc. I told the minister who is a dear friend that while I trusted her and the current people who attended our church, what happens in a couple of years when she completely retires...what if the person who replaces her is a real goober?
Well I guess that in truth I will be promising no more than I currently do...dfo my best to serve God and support the church which Linda says that can mean the whole church, the body of Christ. I love these people and for many years have considered myself *home* ..., I don`t know maybe this rabid fear of officially being a member or reluctance to admit that I want to join a church is the next big step in my healing.
I don`t know if I will ever submit to anybody ever again in God`s name..I may be broken beyond repair. I think God gets it though.
I know what you mean when you question the "what if" when she retires. It happened to me and the next one REMOVED me from all programs because apparently he didn't get along with me, yada yada. I'm no longer there. It was never the same.
Not all the fault of rvery man, it started with Adam. He refused to take the blame for what happened, pointed at Eve, she pointed at the serpent. God started with the serpent and went back the way it came and ended up with Adam, apparently where the blame belonged for the most part.
But because in all honesty, since men have more muscles, yup...it doesn't take a Ph.D. to figger out who has won the tussle.
:huh: Adam said the woman gave him the fruit and he ate it. He didn't say she made him do it, or tricked him. I don't see where he refused to take blame.
Are you saying men are forever trying to get back at women or something? Like Lilith is getting back at Adam?
Just cause men generally have more muscles doesn't mean women don't have their own set of weapons. Is it not a mental "fight"?
:huh: Adam said the woman gave him the fruit and he ate it. He didn't say she made him do it, or tricked him. I don't see where he refused to take blame.
Are you saying men are forever trying to get back at women or something? Like Lilith is getting back at Adam?
Just cause men generally have more muscles doesn't mean women don't have their own set of weapons. Is it not a mental "fight"?
If it were only JUST a mental fight, then women would be wearing "the pants" all of the time But it's harder when you're heels are dragging on the ground and your hair has a new doo in the hands of your beloved. :blink:
This thread taken a turn towards the macabre.
Where are the ghouls and goblins, Dooj????
Submission is for both parties, not just a one sided affair.
I did some cybersnooping regarding the organization that is sponsoring this church plant, and they list their requirements for planting pastors; one is a wife (they only sponsor men, of course) who have participating wives and that they are in submission to each other. Yet the church that owns the church plant organization teaches that women are to serve their husbands, and they are the only ones to be submissive. The husband is to lead the wife and to rule over her.
Sometimes I just have to laugh at these folks who are so "into" the new, tough, Calvinistic he-man church. The contradict themselves, and they contradict Scriipture. They teach that Jesus came to call MEN, to teach MEN and to LEAD men and to build His church of MEN.
So I guess that means between Matthew and Revelation there aren't any women mentioned?
Bet they got their own version of the Bible, too.
On a slightly different subject: I'm no feminist. I'm a Christian. That means I believe in Jesus and what He taught and try to do what He taught. The irony is, I have no desire and feel no calling to teach anyone. I just want to be a voice to be heard, not patted on the head, not told in a godly, loving way, "Shut UP Stupid Bytch!"
If it were only JUST a mental fight, then women would be wearing "the pants" all of the time But it's harder when you're heels are dragging on the ground and your hair has a new doo in the hands of your beloved. :blink:
. . .
:blink:
uh, I believe physical force is against the rules, serves no purpose in a marriage etc.
If marriage is about literally dragging someone else by the hair, perhaps marriage is something one should avoid.
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brideofjc
Unfortunately, it predates then as well....even Augustine was a mysoginist...and Jerome, the author of the Latin Vulgate was so brazen that he actually changed the case ending on Junia's name to JUNIAS - i.e. from female to male.
Need I say more....?????
Then I forget which one....could be Augustine....who BLAMED some woman for causing him to get aroused at the sounds of her skirts swishing in the hallway of the monastery that he was staying in at the time. Like she knew he was in that particular room and so deliberately walked by causing her skirts to SWISH!!! OMG!
Seems to me he should have CONTROLLED HIMSELF, do ya think?
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Watered Garden
Galatians 5:12 for HIM!
WG
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RumRunner
Seems to me he should have gone on a date with Rosy Palm and her five sisters or perhaps Palmela Handerson...and just kept his mouth shut, stopped whining, and stopped blaming others for his own physical desires...or is that some twisted act as well?!?!?!
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JeffSjo
My maternal grandfather was very old fashioned in many respects. But as far as women goes he taught me a huge lesson once.
When we were discussing submission we also discussed children and the marriage relationship. He told me that in the old days that women worked side by side with their husbands and also worked just as hard or harder sometimes than the men. When it came to the day after day, back breaking labor of clearing fields, or planting and harvesting them, chopping firewood, tending to the animals, or tending to the children that the women he grew up around were just as worthy of respect as the men were. And he also thought some of the TWI attitudes that I had learned were b.s. (Except when he told me that he didn't abbreviate anything.)
I don't ever remember him buying into even one of my lame excuses for my own faults either, even though I never doubted his love.
I am fairly certain that he would have thought Augustine's example was b.s. too. He never, ever excused the bullying of any woman. And I always knew that when he told me that I'd be answering to him for any misbehavior along these lines that he meant what he said.
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Watered Garden
This just flashed across my brain - when we were meeting for the first time with the new church plant, a commitment form was passed out. It had to do with "sacrificial giving" but also had a phrase in there about agreeing to "submission to leadership."
Needless to say, we never signed one although Mr. Garden does some business stuff for them. And though I had a weak moment when I thought I wanted to, Mr. Garden never brought one home. I suspect he feels as I do, that after the TWI fiasco, ain't never signin' away my freedom again!
WG
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brideofjc
As a result from not only TWI, but others, I will never sign anything again either.
If the HS agrees with what is said, then fine....
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RumRunner
Yes bride - it is all the fault of men - at least your wording sounds like that - NOT religion which controls men as much as women via brainwashing but simply leaves them with the upper social hand. As if all the men of all time said, "Hey bro we can do this to women." Keep your misandry on some radical thread and keep your false religious accusations where they belong - like in some place where people do not take accountability for their own actions - but conveniently use race, gender, sexual orientation, and any other excuse to blame someone else for their biases.
How sad the long grip of religion, its infatuation with "a" holy spirit (name your drug's flavor) and its drug-like effect on honesty and humanity.
Edited by RumRunnerLink to comment
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Watered Garden
We had our first official community group meeting at this guy's house last night - him, his wife, another couple and ourselves. I realized as a result of one of the exercises, where each person had to answer two questions, exactly how distrustful I am. The first question was when did you first experience the need for God and ask Him to come into your life - that's a paraphrase I can't remember the exact words. Now the Neo-Calvinists say that if you can't give the exact date, place, time and context of your being saved you most likely are not saved at all.
So I passed. I do pretty much know when I wanted to become closer to God, when I asked Jesus Christ into my heart, but I just didn't think it was any of their damn business.
So much for submission, huh?
WG
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rascal
I am meeting with the minister at the little church that we have attended sporadically since leaving twi next week.
I have been a part of this group, worked with the youth, was a part of their womens group...the whole family attends sunday night bible study....I was rabidly against officially joining. I`ll be damned if anybody will get me to commit to anything and then demand subservience in God`s name ever again.
Well, it turns out that if my kiddos and I are members, it opens all kinds of doors college wise. Scholarships, money for dorm rooms etc. I told the minister who is a dear friend that while I trusted her and the current people who attended our church, what happens in a couple of years when she completely retires...what if the person who replaces her is a real goober?
Well I guess that in truth I will be promising no more than I currently do...dfo my best to serve God and support the church which Linda says that can mean the whole church, the body of Christ. I love these people and for many years have considered myself *home* ..., I don`t know maybe this rabid fear of officially being a member or reluctance to admit that I want to join a church is the next big step in my healing.
I don`t know if I will ever submit to anybody ever again in God`s name..I may be broken beyond repair. I think God gets it though.
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waysider
I can't remember the first time I rode a bicycle.
Maybe it never happened.
:blink:
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Watered Garden
Waysider...EXACTLY!!!!!!!
Rascal, I don't think you are broken beyond repair, I think you are just being cautious and wise.
I do not believe for one milimicron of a nanosecond that I have to commit to a group of people, a building, or a name, other than the Name of Jesus Christ as my Savior. I consider myself a member of the Body of Christ. All the rest is just window dressing, hype, and an excuse to ask for money.
Boy, am I a touchy little thing this morning or what?
WG
I don't know how to put one of those cool one-liners on the bottom of my posts like y'all do, but if I did, it would be a line from that song that introduces one of the CSI shows:
"We won't get fooled again!"
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RumRunner
Click on your name (ie go to your profile), under the first tab (default) you will see a box called Content - at the bottom a link saying "Edit your signature" Click on that and add what you want.
The song above BTW is by The Who with that same title - "Won't get fooled again"
Enjoy
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Watered Garden
Thanks!
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brideofjc
Not all the fault of rvery man, it started with Adam. He refused to take the blame for what happened, pointed at Eve, she pointed at the serpent. God started with the serpent and went back the way it came and ended up with Adam, apparently where the blame belonged for the most part.
But because in all honesty, since men have more muscles, yup...it doesn't take a Ph.D. to figger out who has won the tussle.
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brideofjc
I know what you mean when you question the "what if" when she retires. It happened to me and the next one REMOVED me from all programs because apparently he didn't get along with me, yada yada. I'm no longer there. It was never the same.
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RumRunner
Heh - well for better or worse I can't differ with that note. smilez
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GarthP2000
The snake.
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Watered Garden
Won the battle but not the war! His head has been crushed beneath the feet of the triumphant Lord!
WG
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Bolshevik
:huh: Adam said the woman gave him the fruit and he ate it. He didn't say she made him do it, or tricked him. I don't see where he refused to take blame.
Are you saying men are forever trying to get back at women or something? Like Lilith is getting back at Adam?
Just cause men generally have more muscles doesn't mean women don't have their own set of weapons. Is it not a mental "fight"?
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doojable
This thread taken a turn towards the macabre.
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brideofjc
If it were only JUST a mental fight, then women would be wearing "the pants" all of the time
But it's harder when you're heels are dragging on the ground and your hair has a new doo in the hands of your beloved. :blink:
Where are the ghouls and goblins, Dooj????
Submission is for both parties, not just a one sided affair.
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Watered Garden
I did some cybersnooping regarding the organization that is sponsoring this church plant, and they list their requirements for planting pastors; one is a wife (they only sponsor men, of course) who have participating wives and that they are in submission to each other. Yet the church that owns the church plant organization teaches that women are to serve their husbands, and they are the only ones to be submissive. The husband is to lead the wife and to rule over her.
Sometimes I just have to laugh at these folks who are so "into" the new, tough, Calvinistic he-man church. The contradict themselves, and they contradict Scriipture. They teach that Jesus came to call MEN, to teach MEN and to LEAD men and to build His church of MEN.
So I guess that means between Matthew and Revelation there aren't any women mentioned?
Bet they got their own version of the Bible, too.
On a slightly different subject: I'm no feminist. I'm a Christian. That means I believe in Jesus and what He taught and try to do what He taught. The irony is, I have no desire and feel no calling to teach anyone. I just want to be a voice to be heard, not patted on the head, not told in a godly, loving way, "Shut UP Stupid Bytch!"
That's all.
WG
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Bolshevik
:blink:
uh, I believe physical force is against the rules, serves no purpose in a marriage etc.
If marriage is about literally dragging someone else by the hair, perhaps marriage is something one should avoid.
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kimberly
Bride, I think the ghouls and goblins are in the hands of that beloved giving the new doo.
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